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Kristin Wartman: Pizza is a Vegetable? Congress Defies Logic, Betrays Our Children
USDA guidelines wanted to make sure kids got more vegetables, so Congress decided to officially make pizza a vegetable. The amount of tomato paste on it is enough.
Tomato is a fruit, and tomato paste is a lot of corn syrup.
They actually passed this law (or whatever it's called)? That's just insane.
And this is the country with all the nukes...
A very stupid case which nonetheless is a perfect example of who runs this country. I'm not suggesting that "99%ers" are upset over school lunches when I say this is exactly what they're pissed off about.
Looks like I've been eating healthy for years. Thank god.
The intelligence of the USA has now officially been overtaken by this guy:
http://www.ejumpcut.org/archive/jc51...x/PDVD_152.jpg
Good lord.... A vegetable?
A f'cking vegetable??
There isn't a facepalm picture in existence that could possibly suffice...
We need to reduce greenhouse gases so carbon monoxide is now considered an oxygen
http://jasonbstanding.com/blogparts/...y_facepalm.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
close enough
College students must be very healthy.
Remember: when it comes to making a good pizza, the sauce is everything.
"No, Congress did not declare pizza a vegetable - The Washington Post"
The story did sound like one of those typical hyped-into-a-lie things. Like when a headline reads 'scientist disproves God' when all he has done is refined mathematical work on spontaneous quantum fluctuations. Or whatever.
http://pic.phyrefile.com/j/ja/jayhaw...Kat_Lady04.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Nothing on TV is funny anymore so we're just going to have to force ourselves to laugh at Two and Half Men.
Lmao. Sero, that's probably the closest possible substitute. :chuckle:
I also love the counter-argument the Washington Post put out, attacking the (obviously satirical) claim that 'pizza is being made a vegetable', by saying 'it's just the sauce, and it's not unhealthy!' Note that they say nothing about how tomatoes are fruits, and that there is very little to suggest that these processed pizzas are doing anything to provide kids with their recommended servings of vegetables - ontop of giving them all that other crap that isn't healthy. They are just like "what, pizzas aren't been declared vegetables! People who can't see this are stupid, 'nanny-state' advocates!"
No, Congress did not declare pizza a vegetable - The Washington Post
I take it you are watching the Ashton Kutcher episodes. Turn on the reruns of the Charlie Sheen episodes, you don't have to force with those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
There is no objective definition of 'vegetable'. It is a colloquial term with no scientific basis; tomatoes are fruits but they can also be vegetables if you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
http://www.foolishcreatures.com/wp-c...ow-300x197.jpg
Funny how the tomato's position as a vegetable is dependent on whether or not pizza should be considered healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
It has been legally classified as a vegetable in the USA since 1893. Unless you're suggesting the President has a spare flux capacitor..?
Additionally, since when were vegetables healthy and fruits unhealthy? If you're going to be wrong at least try to be coherent about it.
Well, I've always liked my fair share of vegetable pizzas
Isn't the primary ingredient of tomato paste in the USA corn syrup, not tomatoes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Interesting. Do you have a source for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
I've got one that says otherwise:
According to this, tomato as being a fruit is technically, scientifically correct. Tomato being labelled a vegetable is simply used colloquially in cooking, which, logically, should not hold any weight as to whether or not it's considered a vegetable, in terms of nutrition.Quote:
The confusion about 'fruit' and 'vegetable' arises because of the differences in usage between scientists and cooks. Scientifically speaking, a tomato is definitely a fruit. True fruits are developed from the ovary in the base of the flower, and contain the seeds of the plant (though cultivated forms may be seedless). Blueberries, raspberries, and oranges are true fruits, and so are many kinds of nut. Some plants have a soft part which supports the seeds and is also called a 'fruit', though it is not developed from the ovary: the strawberry is an example.
As far as cooking is concerned, some things which are strictly fruits, such as tomatoes or bean pods, may be called 'vegetables' because they are used in savoury rather than sweet cooking. The term 'vegetable' is more generally used of other edible parts of plants, such as cabbage leaves, celery stalks, and potato tubers, which are not strictly the fruit of the plant from which they come. Occasionally the term 'fruit' may be used to refer to a part of a plant which is not a fruit, but which is used in sweet cooking: rhubarb, for example.
So, the answer to the question is that a tomato is technically the fruit of the tomato plant, but it's used as a vegetable in cooking.
Is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? : Oxford Dictionaries Online
You disagree?
I'm not here to argue whether or not tomato is a fruit... but weren't they working on some other thing... I think they were trying to reduce our deficit or something silly like that.
I guess the status of pizza was more pressing.
what? what? deficit? What deficit :paranoid:
No we should argue about fruits and vegetables instead - congress says so
MAN! I only wish there were some way... we could... maybe FIRE THEM. What if somehow we could fire all 435 of our Representatives in the SAME YEAR?!?!?!? If only...Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Approval rating at 12%? I think they want to be the first to reach 0%.
(Seriously people, out the incumbents or vote third party. Better yet, DO BOTH!) /rant
Lul yeah cause pizza is a fruit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Congress should just pass a law saying that deficit is a surplus.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
No you don't, it says exactly the same thing that I just explained. I don't know what your point is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
And it wouldn't make sense as an issue anyway; why would the supposed propaganda machine be averse to calling it a fruit? Fruit is just as healthy. The issue is about trying to classify something that isn't healthy as something that is (a vegetable or a fruit, it doesn't matter). :/
There are so many real, genuine, important problems with US politics, I don't know why people are spending their time on one which is basically fabricated and not very exciting.
Superb logical fallacies once again. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Yes yes... a spending "surplus". I like it. Fits the whole "PC" nature of society.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Forget pizzas, the genuinely concerning ones are the ones you don't even notice. You don't have a Ministry of Love yet but the Ministry of Defence is a fine substitute.
I don't know... but I'm pretty sure I notice the terrible things my government does. Torture, murder, make money out of thin air to pay for more wars... yup, it's all there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
I wish there was some sort of... umm, a document! A document that could have prevented all of this stuff.
I was referring to the fluidity of words specifically however.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxford Dictionary
Lolwut?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Ok. We'll just pretend that your ignoring the rest of my post means I really never posted it, and move on...
Yeah. Of course. So if I try to trojan something in as 'healthy' because it gives someone their 'recommended serving of dairy' - though it also gives them scores of other shit that would not be an issue if that person was actually just getting that serving of dairy instead of all the other shit that's served with it - that's cool? Sort of an 'Ice Cream sundaes everyday = healthy because you're getting dairy sort of thing, yeah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
There are so many real, genuine, important problems with the world, I don't know why you're spending your time replying to conversations about something that is allegedly fabricated and not very exciting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
See how easy that is?
Funny thing is: across the pond, the usual schtick is about the American obesity problem. And now, suddenly (presumably to take attention off of the fact that what you said is at odds with the quotation I posted), something that takes issue with the topic is not worth discussion. Interesting how that works.
I don't really see why the problem is with pizza. I fucking love pizza and I'm skinny. The problem should be with schools buying cheap shitty frozen foods. On top of this most schools don't follow these guidelines anyways(I think that was from blackeagle's link).Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
The problem is that schools are too lazy to come up with healthy food choices so they just add pizza to the healthy list. Glad to know you're skinny, not every kid who eats pizza all day is going to be skinny. Our entire society has gone the way of efficiency over quality, especially in our food. We are losing this front.
http://www.straferight.com/photopost...e-facepalm.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Congress
Well, somebody had to do it.
Aside, this isn't necessarily the first time this has happened. (Ketchup, apparently, fills the "vegetable" role quite well, according to Congress fifty years ago.) Gotta admit, though. It is... somewhat silly, and it probably won't do wonders for the nutritional system.
The way I see it (and this is just my personal perspective, here), the problem is much less the pizza. Hell, I love pizza. I'm not exactly a small guy, but I don't think there is any 'inherent evil' in pizza. The problem is the frozen pizza that is served on top of all of the other unhealthy crap in schools. Not sure how many of you - who are 'wtfever' about the issue - actually have kids, but it's actually a pretty important issue, because of the obesity epidemic in the country. These are all contributing factors. The downside to this is that people try to look at it as an issue of "well pizza isn't the problem." It's a part of the problem, and to discuss the problem, the different parts of the problem has to be addressed as the contributing factors that they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by StonedApe
The issue, for me, is the hypocrisy. It makes it seem like they are just trying what they can to make Big Food (corporations) happy, by changing the verbiage so that 'hey, we can still make the Processed Pizza corps happy by changing the terminology so that their "tomato paste" counts as a vegetable, instead of offering more healthy alternatives to kids." People they don't have kids often try to say "well, hey, they are your kids. You should be the ones to deligate what they do or don't eat. Those of us with kids (or those of us with a bit of perspective) can understand that that is not usually as easy as it sounds.
For me, the issue is a lot like the issue with cigarettes. On one hand, our government talks about looking out for our best interests. We have things that are illegal 'because of the best interest of the people', but then we have this 'other side of the coin', that pushes for things that are unhealthy, simply because they sell. That's my problem. It's all the double-talk. It's the 'instead of introducing healthier alternatives, we are going to change the rules so that our not-necessarily-healthy menu can technically be counted as something else, to keep it on the menu', because it's so cost-efficient' philosophy.
"Oh yeah, cigarettes are deadly, but we are going to demonize the substances that we would make much less money on, and keep pumping cigarettes to the public, because people buy them like candy."
And, yes, the two may be two technically different issues, but I believe they are related. I'm not trying to make pizza out to be a bad guy. What I'm taking issue with all of the crap that's peddled to our nation everyday. It's always 'if it tastes good, eat it. If it feels good, do it", with this practical misdirection away from what is healthier, and a push toward what makes more money. This is an underlying theme in pretty much everything that's wrong with our country, and I tend to view things that seem to advocate this philosophy with a bit more scrutiny than others. Am I wrong to?
Are you trolling? My post clearly says that vegetable is not a scientific term (in the bit you removed from the quote, good work). This is not contradicted by 'fruit' being a scientific term, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
What rest of the post? The only other thing you did was ask for a source, but you already did that for me. Derp.Quote:
Ok. We'll just pretend that your ignoring the rest of my post means I really never posted it, and move on...
Facepalm number three. Actually read my post that you quoted and try again.Quote:
Yeah. Of course. So if I try to trojan something in as 'healthy' because it gives someone their 'recommended serving of dairy' - though it also gives them scores of other shit that would not be an issue if that person was actually just getting that serving of dairy instead of all the other shit that's served with it - that's cool? Sort of an 'Ice Cream sundaes everyday = healthy because you're getting dairy sort of thing, yeah?
Telling to people to do something worthwhile isn't worthwhile? Okay whatever.Quote:
There are so many real, genuine, important problems with the world, I don't know why you're spending your time replying to conversations about something that is allegedly fabricated and not very exciting.
You've set a new facepalm record.Quote:
(presumably to take attention off of the fact that what you said is at odds with the quotation I posted),
It's not worthy of discussion because the bill doesn't say that a vegetable is a pizza. It doesn't even use the word 'vegetable' or 'pizza'. If you read what they actually passed it is pretty sane. And like you say, I'd be one of the first people to laugh at an American given the chance. In fact I did, after ninja's first post, but before Black Eagle's where he rectified it. I sure am being irrational in here, aren't I?Quote:
something that takes issue with the topic is not worth discussion. Interesting how that works.
*chucklesnort*Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
I'm sorry, but to see you ask anyone that question, with any sort of sincerity, is a bit funny. :wink:
Actually, I was speaking more to the point that a tomato being scientifically, botanically, a fruit, implies that 'vegetables' being a colloquial term is really only reasonable when it comes to culinary circles, since 'tomato' already has a scientific classification. My confusion is kind of based on the question of: If nutrition is based on biochemistry, which is fairly scientifically constant, then why go through all this trouble to call it something that isn't scientifically accurate? To be fair, though, I understand your point about what you said. I simply misinterpreted. I only removed it from the quote because I thought the last part was the most relevant. My mistake. In my defense, though, it would have been idiotic for me to omit it and then try to make a point out of it, as if you'd never posted it, on purpose, and that is not the case. I believe my point still stands, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
I gave a brief summary of the way I interpreted the article. I stated that the article labels tomato as a fruit, technically, but that the word 'vegetable' was often used for some fruits colloquially in cooking. What you said, specifically, was that the word 'vegetable' has no scientific basis to it, whatsoever (something that I was able to corroborate from the Vegetable wiki, afterward). Now. Please point me to the section of the article that I posted, where it says that the word 'vegetable' has no scientific basis to it. Though it can be argued that it's implied, it is absolutely not stated in the article. Herp Derp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Yeah. I did. And in case you missed it, that is the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
To quote the Huffington Post's article about it:
You're proposing that all of these additives and preservatives are an integral part of a healthy diet for children? Or are they just processed crap to make the 'pizza' cheaper and have a longer shelf-life? If the former, then I don't really know what you figure to be 'unhealthy.' If the latter, then I believe the issue is definitely worth discussing.Quote:
But the government clearly does not control the food Americans eat. Corporations do. In this case ConAgra and Schwan are quite literally determining what the vast majority of our school children will be fed in school cafeterias: A veritable chemical concoction made to look like pizza. These are the ingredients for the "traditional 4x6 school pizza" made by ConAgra:
CRUST: (Enriched wheat flour (bleached wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, reduced iron, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, soybean oil, dextrose, baking powder (sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum sulfate, cornstarch, monocalcium phosphate, calcium sulfate), yeasts (yeast, starch, sorbitan monostearate, ascorbic acid), salt, dough conditioners (wheat flour, salt, soy oil, L-cysteine, ascorbic acid, fungal enzyme), wheat gluten, soy flour).
SAUCE: (water, tomato paste (31 percent NTSS), pizza seasoning (salt, sugar, spices, dehydrated onion, guar and xanthan gum, garlic powder, potassium sorbate, citric acid, tricalcium phophate and soybean oil (prevent caking)), modified food starch). SHREDDED MOZZARELLA
CHEESE: (Pasteurized part skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes). SHREDDED MOZZARELLA
CHEESE SUBSTITUTE: (Water, oil (soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil with citric acid), casein, milk protein concentrate, modified food starch, contains 2 percent or less of the following: sodium aluminum phosphate, salt, lactic acid, mozzarella cheese type flavor (cheese (milk, culture, rennet, salt), milk solids, disodium phosphate), disodium phosphate, sorbic acid, nutrient blend (magnesium oxide, zinc oxide, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin and vitamin B-12), vitamin A palmitate).
It's not even pizza, much less a vegetable. (And if you think that's bad take a look at the ingredients for the "Pepperoni, Reduced Fat Pizza").
Because trying to be more conscious about what cost-cutting methods our impoverished educational system is using to help feed our children isn't worthwhile. Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
And there goes your usual arrogance again. If you're implying that every single thing you do, and conversation you have, is worthwhile, then you are both egotistical and delusional. If you concede to the fact that not everything you engage in is objectively 'worthwhile', then you are simply a hypocrite. Either way, your rhetorical question is invalid.
Also, I think this quote from the New York Times makes it clear that discussion on the issue is very worthwhile:
But of course, you don't have kids. So, no. Discussing this wouldn't really be all that worthwhile to you, now would it? You should go do something worthwhile, instead. :hrm:Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
A bit of a dubious accolade, coming from you, but thanks. :chuckle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
As I've already stated, the issue is not with the words 'pizza' or 'vegetable'. People say it like that because it's catchy and alarmist and attention-grabbing. It is not literal. The issue is with whether or not the processed crap our kids eat everyday is healthy. These fake pizzas have always been a point of contention, and moves like this make it look like loopholes are being exploited, in order to misinform people into thinking that something - that really isn't all that healthy - is healthier than it actually is. Just like the Washington Post column, you are attacking the rhetoric, and ignoring the actual issue. Bad Xei! :nono:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
By 'rectified it', do you mean 'posted the same Washington Post column that [I] later did (having not seen his post at the time)', which I explained - uncontested, as of yet - as being a bit of a strawman? Also, I'm kind of confused as to whether your first post was making fun of Ninja, or Congress. When you're trying to be insulting, it doesn't help to be so vague. But yes, to answer your question, hostility towards Americans, simply because they are American (as with any other nation) is irrational. It's also like wearing a 'Kiss me, I'm ignorant' sticker on your forehead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
But don't let deter you, of course. :goodjob2:
You already said this and I told you to read the post again. I don't think you did. Here, I'll even copypaste:Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
"[A tomato being a fruit as opposed to a vegetable] wouldn't make sense as an issue anyway; why would the supposed propaganda machine be averse to calling it a fruit? Fruit is just as healthy. The issue is about trying to classify something that isn't healthy as something that is (a vegetable or a fruit, it doesn't matter)."
How are you disagreeing with me?
I know the issue isn't literal. But the only posts I've made were responding to people who were taking it literally, which they were; see for instance the post at the top of this page.Quote:
Because trying to be more conscious about what cost-cutting methods our impoverished educational system is using to help feed our children isn't worthwhile. Right?
And there goes your usual arrogance again. If you're implying that every single thing you do, and conversation you have, is worthwhile, then you are both egotistical and delusional. If you concede to the fact that not everything you engage in is objectively 'worthwhile', then you are simply a hypocrite. Either way, your rhetorical question is invalid.
Also, I think this quote from the New York Times makes it clear that discussion on the issue is very worthwhile:
But of course, you don't have kids. So, no. Discussing this wouldn't really be all that worthwhile to you, now would it? You should go do something worthwhile, instead. :hrm:
As I've already stated, the issue is not with the words 'pizza' or 'vegetable'. People say it like that because it's catchy and alarmist and attention-grabbing. It is not literal. The issue is with whether or not the processed crap our kids eat everyday is healthy. These fake pizzas have always been a point of contention, and moves like this make it look like loopholes are being exploited, in order to misinform people into thinking that something - that really isn't all that healthy - is healthier than it actually is. Just like the Washington Post column, you are attacking the rhetoric, and ignoring the actual issue. Bad Xei! :nono:
- You say that this resembles 'everything that is wrong with our country'.Quote:
When you're trying to be insulting, it doesn't help to be so vague. But yes, to answer your question, hostility towards Americans, simply because they are American (as with any other nation) is irrational. It's also like wearing a 'Kiss me, I'm ignorant' sticker on your forehead.
- I agree with you.
- You call me anti-American for agreeing.
Ughh... okay.
I don't think schools are too lazy; public schools CAN'T AFFORD healthy foods. My school was pushing healthier choices but even with government subsidies public schools simply cannot afford healthier options for students, or else the students have to pay (which is difficult for a great number of families, especially in the schools that NEED healthy options.) It's not laziness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Did you see that? Did you see what just happened, right there? If you blinked, you might have missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
You didn't 'copy/paste' your post. You copy/pasted most of your post, and then you added additional context, for understanding, in brackets, which was absent from your first post. David Copperfield would be proud. :chuckle:
All joking aside, though, I now better understand what you mean, and I'll acknowledge that you are more addressing the idea of 'who cares if they call it a vegetable or a fruit?' (and I agree with you on that). I never said that they would be adverse to calling it a fruit, but it's really irrelevant. I am speaking to the more important point, here, which is 'why are they using these loopholes to disguise it as something healthy (I don't care if they call tomatoes a fruit or vegetable), when it isn't?' The shit they put in these 'pizza pucks' (like much of the cafeteria food in our schools) can barely pass for fruits or vegetables. The way it is being handled makes it pretty apparent that they are manipulating vagaries in terminology, for the benefit of the Big Food corporations, instead of for that of our children. Of course, if that is not the case, I would absolutely love some facts to the contrary. As of yet, though, we have none.
So when you come in, guns blazing, aiming to smart-ass your way into the discussion (chomping at the bit to mock someone, somewhere, whenever possible), I can't help but want to :bslap: you for it, because the issue isn't even about whether they are calling it a fruit or a vegetable. The issue is that it seems they are trying to say: "Hey, look! This 'pizza' is healthy, because it's got a scoop of fruit/vegetables (take your pick) on top of all the other bullshit that we put into it!" It's like you are ignoring the actual issue that people are trying to make (though most are making it poorly. I can agree with you there, too), and just locking onto any piece of it that you can exploit and turn into a "God, you're so stupid" type of response.
When I say that something is 'everything that's wrong with our country', it does not mean that 'every American is wrong, for being a part of that society'. We have the right to disagree with the policy-makers of our nation, and many of us do. So being hostile towards an American, just because they are American (and not because they are an American lawmaker who backs a law that you disagree with) is, like I said, both irrational and ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
For being a mathematician, your inability (or refusal) to grasp this simple logic kind of confuses me. :?
Agreed. I don't blame the schools. I blame the lack of funding. The truth is that our government spends all its money on things that are SO much more unimportant than our educational system - not just the food, but the quality of the schools and materials, themselves - in the regions that really need it. It's a shame, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
*See entire US Budget: War on Drugs, War in Iraq, War in Afghanistan, Wars in Libya/Yemen (probably Syria, too.) Also see unsustainable Social Security program.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
The education budget is only about 45 billion compared to the nearly 1 trillion spent on our wars. We pay much more to kill people than to educate our children.
That says it all and sums it up in an eloquent nutshell.
Yet again this is what I meant. When you say 'this is what is wrong with America', you don't mean every American. When I say 'this makes me laugh at Americans', I don't mean every American. When people laugh at how fat Americans are, they aren't laughing at Natalie Portman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Hopefully you get it now.Quote:
For being a mathematician, your inability (or refusal) to grasp this simple logic kind of confuses me. :?
Well 1 trillion on the wars would be better compared to a budget of 100 billion (inb4 Omnis calls me a baby slaughterer).Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
Though your entire DoD budget is around 700 billion. Jesus Christ you guys... what the fuck are you playing at??
I do, now that you've actually made yourself a little more clear. Guess that just goes back to what I was saying about how vagary doesn't help, when you're trying to be insulting. Even though using the word 'again' makes it seem like you were actually being so clear in your first post - which you weren't - I do thank you for the clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
(And, to be clear, the usual M.O. for racists, nationalists and the generally prejudice is to do exactly what I said you seemed to be doing in the last post, so even your subsequent explanation is not all that universally true. Quite often, when people call someone - that they can't see - a 'fat American', they ARE talking about Natalie Portman, if they don't know that that person is Natlie Portman, just in the same vein that someone who doesn't know me calls me a 'no-class nigger', because I'm black, actually means that, even though they would be wrong to label me as such.)
But I do get what you're trying to say, so we can leave it at that. :thumbup:
Gary Johnson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < THIS GUY wants to cut ^^^ That budget by 43% if he's elected, on YEAR ONE. (He balanced the budget when he was governor of New Mexico, so it's not just a campaign promise... vetoed 750 bills that increased spending... AND he got re-elected.) Believe it or not, I'm supporting and campaigning for him. (Also he thinks pot should be legal, as well as gay marriage.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
And that DoD budget doesn't even count our foreign wars! (^That guy also wants to end all of those.) There's another few hundred million a year giving us that grand total of 1 trillion... it's really pretty scary, since that's around half of our total federal income... Basically, unless we get someone to deal with our budget seriously, we're going to end up like Greece... except instead of wasting money on a retirement age of 50... we're wasting it on wars and weapons.
I think I've seen Gary Johnson on Youtube and he seemed great, although I think I recall him saying something concerning about something important.
I never realised your education to military ratio is so ridiculously out of line. I mean, it's literally beyond all reason, less than a tenth! On this side of the pond education takes about double the money of defence, so that's a difference of a factor of more than 20. It's unbelievable that the American population has been talked into it.
We've only been bitching about it for 30 plus years. Talked into it my ass.
We have news station that runs nothing but distractions on the "liberal media" and regurgitates party propaganda on fox and the conservative media. Fox News has been teaching us that the rich are not rich but job creators, that the poor are not unfortunate but lazy, that the liberals are not trying to improve society but take away your guns and indoctrinate your kids into a homosex commie club and that Saddam Hussein caused 9/11. You can't blame Americans for the way Americans see the world.
I only disagree with Johnson on Israel, he said we should continue to foster a friendship... but I'm not sure if that means continuing to give them money and weapons... But everything else, he's socially liberal and fiscally conservative... (Campaign slogan is "Live Free", very fitting.) In 2016 if he runs again (he won't win this year unless he's picked up by the GOP nominee as a Vice Presidential running mate), he's going to get most, if not all, of Ron Paul's supporters, I see him as the libertarian torch-bearer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
And I don't even want to talk about the state of our education system. We weren't talked into it, we elected the war hawks in Congress who decide our fucking budget. The two-party system needs to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
What you just did is enumerate various things that Americans have been talked into. Exactly the opposite of the point you were trying to make. Not entirely sure how you did this. -_-Quote:
We have news station that runs nothing but distractions on the "liberal media" and regurgitates party propaganda on fox and the conservative media. Fox News has been teaching us that the rich are not rich but job creators, that the poor are not unfortunate but lazy, that the liberals are not trying to improve society but take away your guns and indoctrinate your kids into a homosex commie club and that Saddam Hussein caused 9/11. You can't blame Americans for the way Americans see the world.
Again though you're making vast generalizations that do not encompass the american people. You're making the assumption this country is run by some sort of popular opinion. The popular opinion has been manufactured. There was no debate in which intellectuals were given a sliver of a chance to show people the error of their thought. They were not talked into jack shit. They were conditioned.
What you're doing here is agreeing with me except you're trying to contrast the terms 'talk into' and 'condition' when they basically mean the same thing. Not sure why.
Because "talked into" implies some sort of rational method of winning the public over. It implies they used reason. I'm implying they used persistence to drown out reason. I'm actually trying to explain to you HOW they were talked into this, basically. You said yourself you didn't understand how.
HAHAHAH, yeah, that's how they did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Well, nobody is voting for the candidates proposing to drastically reduce military spending and increase education spending. So I guess they've been talked into doing that.
Okay, well that wasn't the implication I intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
No one votes for them because no one knows about them except for people who inform themselves from sources other than corporate-funded media.
Sort of, but I don't think most people even realize that they are doing that. They see a situation where 2 candidates have opposing views on other issues they consider important, things like healthcare, and they completely ignore the fact that they have the same views on military spending. Or they know about it but they think the other issue is too important to let the other candidate win. So many people in this country refuse to vote 3rd party or independent because they are literally afraid of the other parties candidate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
This is mainly because of the way media is used. To coerce rather than inform. These people have been convinced that voting for a third party candidate is a waste of a vote. This is basically what my 2 of government teachers said even(in class, and I didn't even go to public school).
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but only the richest people in America can afford a decent campaign that will hold up against the big dogs - you almost need massive big bank financing like Obama had in order to be considered a contender. And that kind of financing comes with a price tag attached. We're talking about candidates who are pretty well bought and paid for by huge corporations like oil companies or big banks. Nobody else even gets far enough to be heard about on television.
And who's gonna vote for a candidate they didn't see on TV like the "real" candidates?
And people wonder why we are always bitching about the U.S. candidates. Outside the U.S. (and even to the more naive U.S. citizens), there seems to be this misconception that our electoral system is one that actually works, or is as simple as; "everyone gets an honest opportunity to see what their candidates are going to be like in their Presidency, so if we take a vote on who should win, we can only blame ourselves if that person fucks things up! It's brilliant!" It doesn't, and it's not. Top candidates are bought; campaign promises are broken; votes are miscounted; machines are rigged; questions are dodged; sincere (if possible), less-wealthy candidates are swept into obscurity; people vote more out of bias and prejudice than with an actual awareness of the issues; lawmakers create laws based on either dogmatic precedence or a need to line their pockets; voters are conditioned by manipulative and polarizing, mainstream media outlets (why do you think FOXNews calls itself the "Most Powerful" name in news?' Anybody ever actually stopped and tried to figure that out?); information is withheld and classified; geo-political events are coordinated in ways that would help to sway popular opinion toward certain goals. etc. etc.
At face-value, the system looks like something that should work. At it's most basic, 'democracy' seems like just that; a way for every voice to be heard, and for everyone to have a God-given chance at changing the course of history, by offering their perspective on things. It's a fairy tale - a rouse - and it's not how our government actually works, I'm afraid.
It did work that way until it became a big money game. Now career politicians are all multi millionaires if not multi billionaires. And they don't want to lose that cushy position, so they do whatever it takes to keep it - total cut-throat politics and mudslinging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Agreed. I should have been more specific. It was much more just, back in the day, I'm sure. But, of course, the longer the will of the power-hungry is suppressed by the will of the every-day Joe, the more aggressive the power-hungry will become in trying to resume and retain their power. Once they figure out how to work 'within the system', in order to do that, the system itself becomes corrupt. These days, it's become increasingly easy to exploit loopholes and sway the opinions of the masses. That 'win at all costs' mentality that permeates nearly all positions of wealth and power, on some level (lawyers, politicians, CEOs), is not going to go away anytime soon, and it's why so many of the American people are so jaded, these days, when it comes to voting. What's the use in voting for someone, if the chance that they are actually telling the truth in their campaigns might as well be 50/50, ya know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
Some guy said about the removal the Italian and Greek PMs that he'd rather be led by the first 100 names in the phone book. I feel the same way about the US electoral process.
I'd rather be led by a bunch of first graders. In kindergarten they teach you that hitting and stealing are wrong. If politicians could do that(and extend these rules to their agents) they'd be better than the guys in office.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
And in kindergarten economics, they know that you need money to be able to pay for something.Quote:
Originally Posted by StonedApe
Xei and O' should just get it over with and fuck, release all that built up tension that seems to bubble up whenever they post in the same thread. :P
You'd like that, wouldn't you? Dirty boy. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinGill
Lol.