How to learn to do vivid visualizations?.So vivid that will confuse with real world,physical things?

I want ot learn to create vivid visualizations. But not as in my mind, not inside head. i already can do them.
Currently when i relax i can without going into trance or sleep create some scenery on inside my eyelids, on closed eyes, just after looking on this blackness after a while i can see nature scenes, peoples, many strange things etc, they are almost real, maybe little black, but not like things inside mind, but more real, like physical real things, like looking on TV or some movie. And if i will look on them not very long they will put me into sleep.
They are going without my control i can not even direct them....even if i think about 'apple' there is nothing apple related.

Ok, and i want to have real hallucinations. I want to have visualizations so real with eyes open, that i will confuse real physical things with imagined. I want to have them so vivid as nicola tesla had. (he once said that they make him made because he didnt know if what he see is real or not)

With eyes open. how to do it ?
thanks.

This is a terrible suggestion, especially considering it's dangerous and most people find the experience very unpleasant, but taking very large doses (300mg to 1000 mg) of diphenhydramine (aka benadryl) will cause this to happen. It is an anticholinergic deliriant. If you do take it, keep in mind you will be very sleepy, very confused, and what you hallucinate has the propensity of being terrifying (though not always, and not for some individuals). It has both vivid closed eye visuals and open eye visuals. At very high doses, you also lose the ability to distinguish between what is real and what isn't. I do not really suggest using diphenhydramine recreationally, but now you know.

To possibly deter you from using it (or maybe convince you to), I'm going to link you to the erowid diphenhydramine experience vault. Erowid Experience Vaults: Diphenhydramine (also Benadryl) Main Index

Make an educated decision, please.

edit: List of side effects from recreational doses quoted from wikipedia for your knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

It is also a potent anticholinergic agent, leading to the side-effects of dry mouth and throat, increased heart rate, pupil dilation, urinary retention, constipation, and, at high doses, hallucinations or delirium. Further side-effects include motor impairment (ataxia), flushed skin, blurred vision at nearpoint owing to lack of accommodation (cycloplegia), abnormal sensitivity to bright light (photophobia), difficulty concentrating, short-term memory loss, visual disturbances, irregular breathing, dizziness, irritability, itchy skin, confusion, decreased body temperature (in general, in the hands and/or feet), erectile dysfunction, excitability, and, although it can be used to treat nausea, higher doses may cause vomiting.[15] Some side-effects, such as twitching, may be delayed until the drowsiness begins to cease and the person is in more of an awakening mode

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The only way I've heard or read about is by depriving yourself of sleep for a long period of time. However this is not good for your health either, therefore it is not recommended!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation

Taking lots of diphenhydramine feels like you've been up for days, if I had to find a way to describe it. It's probably easier, but just as unhealthy if not more unhealthy.

edit: This Taimapedia link has a lot of information about it's effects.

no, i dont want something chemical. i want to train my mind to do it. tesla could do it. mentally ill people can do it. i want to do it too. there is already info how to train but it too long to hard and i have no bathroom separated from light.
dv .com/f12/inducing-trance-wild-part-2-a-29491/

i need something other than this.
it is related to MHV "Motif Homologiquement Variant".

Mentally ill people can do it because their brain chemistry is different than a normal person's. Taking chemicals alters your brain chemistry temporarily. I'm glad to see you don't want to use it, but don't make the mistake of thinking mentally ill people are doing something that they've learned rather than what they've been griefed with living with. You can try and learn to do it on your own if you want, but I have to say I have a lot of doubt as far as it even being possible.

So you want to be schizophrenic?

yes. i want to be schizophrenic. but i want to have ability to switch it off. and also i want to have mpd, multiple personality disorder. but this will come later.
really, this is my mind, my brain so he has to obey me. why not ?
anyway as i wrote, look here:
dreamviews . com/f12/inducing-trance-wild-part-2-a-29491/ and here:
scribd . com/doc/21575280/Conscious-Dreaming-and-Controlled-Hallucinations

it really is possible but this is hard way, i need something simpler...

Considering you have absolutely no idea what it's like to be schizophrenic or to have mpd, I can't imagine why you'd want to have either. It's pretty foolish to want to be mentally ill, especially when you can mimick the illnesses with drugs. Your brain does not have to obey you, it only has to obey it's own chemistry. The only way you can alter that chemistry is with drugs. I'm not trying to advocate drug usage here, but what you're saying you want to do (suffer from any sort of psychosis but not be stuck that way permanently) is only possible through drugs, yet you refuse to use any.

I think this is just stupid.. I have seen some people who are effected by this, and there life is a mess.

Lysergic acid diethylamide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I honestly feel like there's a good chance this guy isn't for real in the first place.

Seriously, suck it up and do some acid or mushrooms. You'll learn two valuable lessons:

1) What you're looking for is incredibly awesome once achieved, BUT...
2) Is not something you want to have on all the time, lol.

What he's asking for is more akin to diphenhydramine or datura honestly, and neither of those is "awesome", just kind of interesting. Really there's a whole range of hallucinogenics that are all totally different. Acid, DMT, Shrooms, Mescaline, and the like are good for insight and good experience, dissociatives (pcp, ketamine, dxm) are good for total mind trip and a more "inner" experience, and deliriant anticholinergics (datura and diphenhydramine) cause you to see and hear things that are not there, and not be able to distinguish these as real or fake the more delirious you get (and the more obvious these things are not real should be, but actually isn't). I find that the closest legal substitute for good hallucinogens besides getting LSA seeds or anything like that is to mix dxm and diphenhydramine. Feels intense, you hallucinate, but it's definitely it's own trip, not really like acid or shrooms.

i am not interested in any external medicaments drugs or chemicals.
the only one i could use is DMT but generated from my pineal gland, not from external source.
So if anyone know how to tell my pineal gland to generate DMT using only my mind - its great, i would do that, but never from any other source.

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Originally Posted by snoop

This is a terrible suggestion, especially considering it's dangerous and most people find the experience very unpleasant, but taking very large doses (300mg to 1000 mg) of diphenhydramine (aka benadryl) will cause this to happen. It is an anticholinergic deliriant. If you do take it, keep in mind you will be very sleepy, very confused, and what you hallucinate has the propensity of being terrifying (though not always, and not for some individuals). It has both vivid closed eye visuals and open eye visuals. At very high doses, you also lose the ability to distinguish between what is real and what isn't. I do not really suggest using diphenhydramine recreationally, but now you know.

To possibly deter you from using it (or maybe convince you to), I'm going to link you to the erowid diphenhydramine experience vault. Erowid Experience Vaults: Diphenhydramine (also Benadryl) Main Index

Make an educated decision, please.

edit: List of side effects from recreational doses quoted from wikipedia for your knowledge.

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No. No no no. Please stop telling people that they should take deliriants, for ANY reason. There is never a good enough excuse to use deliriants. Not only are they extremely physically dangerous, but they're incredibly neurotoxic. It can take a very long time to recover from deliriant damage, if you ever recover fully. Take it from me, even the people who "like" diphenhydramine regret using it. It's just a terrible drug all around, and suggesting it to people who actually want to experience a psychotic reaction is asking for nothing but trouble.

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Originally Posted by memtest81

i am not interested in any external medicaments drugs or chemicals.
the only one i could use is DMT but generated from my pineal gland, not from external source.
So if anyone know how to tell my pineal gland to generate DMT using only my mind - its great, i would do that, but never from any other source.

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DMT is not synthesized in the pineal gland, that was a theory based on guesswork that turned out to be false.

If you don't have a mental disorder, then what you are seeking, particularly with confusing the hallucinations with reality, will not happen without drugs or some extreme visualization training. The brain doesn't work that way, there is no quick natural solution. Do you really think that if hallucinating was so easy everyone would still just stick around in this crappy world all the time?

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Originally Posted by Alyzarin

No. No no no. Please stop telling people that they should take deliriants, for ANY reason. There is never a good enough excuse to use deliriants. Not only are they extremely physically dangerous, but they're incredibly neurotoxic. It can take a very long time to recover from deliriant damage, if you ever recover fully. Take it from me, even the people who "like" diphenhydramine regret using it. It's just a terrible drug all around, and suggesting it to people who actually want to experience a psychotic reaction is asking for nothing but trouble.



DMT is not synthesized in the pineal gland, that was a theory based on guesswork that turned out to be false.

If you don't have a mental disorder, then what you are seeking, particularly with confusing the hallucinations with reality, will not happen without drugs or some extreme visualization training. The brain doesn't work that way, there is no quick natural solution. Do you really think that if hallucinating was so easy everyone would still just stick around in this crappy world all the time?

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I was only suggesting it because that's literally what he's asking for. Not to mention, trying to become delirious after depriving yourself of sleep for days is pretty much just as "dangerous". Deliriants are without a doubt unhealthy and possibly dangerous, but you run the same risks with other drugs (possibly less risk with classic psychedelics, but the wide range of physiological effects caused by most drugs adds high potential for dangerous reactions regardless). I find it kind of funny that you are upset that I suggested deliriants rather than because I suggested drugs at all.

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Originally Posted by snoop

I was only suggesting it because that's literally what he's asking for. Not to mention, trying to become delirious after depriving yourself of sleep for days is pretty much just as "dangerous". Deliriants are without a doubt unhealthy and possibly dangerous, but you run the same risks with other drugs (possibly less risk with classic psychedelics, but the wide range of physiological effects caused by most drugs adds high potential for dangerous reactions regardless). I find it kind of funny that you are upset that I suggested deliriants rather than because I suggested drugs at all.

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Why would I be upset about that? I'm extremely pro-drug, and I do think that psychedelics would likely give the OP what he wants. However, I would much sooner compare deliriants to poisons than other recreational drugs. They're not "possibly" dangerous, and the risk is MUCH worse than with sleep deprivation and most other drugs. Believe me, there is a reason that practically no one in the drug scene uses deliriants despite the fact that they're some of the most easily obtainable drugs. It's true that rating by equivalent doses of comparable drugs there's not a massive risk with deliriants, but that's not what the situation is; taking a dose of diphenhydramine comparable to a "safe" dose of a stimulant will not produce any kind of recreational buzz, only sedation. Taking a deliriant to trip is similar to purposefully overdosing on speed for the sake of hallucinating, and they effect the brain and body in almost the exact same way. In the same vein, deliriant trips come with the possibility of intense vasoconstriction, heart palpitations and arrhythmias, increased body temperatures to the level of producing fever-like delirium on top of their normal effects, seizures, and strokes all at commonly used "recreational" doses. An extremely large number of deliriant trips end in the hospital, and many others end in jail. Most people who use them also end up with some form of HPPD usually coupled with increasingly intense anxiety and panic attacks, which also precipitate depression. You can even see reports of people who were victims of scopolamine-based crimes in Columbia saying that they've had persistent memory and visual problems ever since the crime, a single use. The same holds true with diphenhydramine and other deliriants.... They stick with you. I had to quit using all other drugs for a long time because every time I would do literally anything I would suddenly feel like I was on diphenhydramine again, including the hallucinations and some of the side effects that appeared with chronic use. This is not an effect unique to me, you can find other reports of it out there. I still can't use stimulants and psychedelics, which used to be my favorite drugs, because they give me strong anxiety now and make me tremor and move like I have Parkinson's or something. Despite this, the hallucinations can be enough to draw people back because of how powerful they are. I used to use diphenhydramine all the time because I was addicted to the intensity of it, as are many other people. All diphheads are exactly like the OP, just looking to experience true hallucinations or escape reality as intensely as possible, and those are the people who are most susceptible to deliriants.

I repeat: There is never a good enough excuse to use deliriants. Seriously, just go with something else.

I've used diphenhydramine plenty of times myself, like, many times (probably 60ish times). I've had HPPD for a long time now from combined dissociative, psychedelic, and deliriant use so that's nothing new, but I've never had any of the other problems you are complaining about. I've personally never had heart problems on it (or many drugs that get complaints about heart problems), and I find it pretty bizarre you find yourself feeling like you have taken diph when having taken another drug. I've never experienced this, and I feel like after 2 days have passed since I have used it, my mental capacities are all back completely to normal. It sucks you seem to have suffered so many problems yourself, but I've taken doses of 600mg+ while on 500mg+ of DXM, further potentiating both of them and I still have never had any of the problems you describe.

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Originally Posted by snoop

I've used diphenhydramine plenty of times myself, like, many times (probably 60ish times). I've had HPPD for a long time now from combined dissociative, psychedelic, and deliriant use so that's nothing new, but I've never had any of the other problems you are complaining about. I've personally never had heart problems on it (or many drugs that get complaints about heart problems), and I find it pretty bizarre you find yourself feeling like you have taken diph when having taken another drug. I've never experienced this, and I feel like after 2 days have passed since I have used it, my mental capacities are all back completely to normal. It sucks you seem to have suffered so many problems yourself, but I've taken doses of 600mg+ while on 500mg+ of DXM, further potentiating both of them and I still have never had any of the problems you describe.

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Not having had the problems yourself is no reason to ignore the fact that many people do get these problems. Just because you've been okay doesn't mean you should be suggesting that people take drugs that are well-known to be dangerous. I know a lot of people who've done diphenhydramine that often as well and most of them seriously regret it or have many of the problems I've described.

On that last note, how often do you do that combination? DPH+DXM is a different ballpark, you're not talking about the same thing anymore.... DXM will actually protect against the neurotoxicity of DPH, so I wouldn't expect that combo to provide many problems (aside from potential HPPD or physical issues). Even though I still wouldn't recommend it from a health standpoint, I would say that the combination is significantly less harmful than DPH alone, as long as it's done safely.

Oh, well I prefer that combination to DPH alone because I don't just feel like passing out the whole time, but I've done it together as often as I have alone. My only real point is, once drugs are concerned, safety is kind of thrown out the window. Yeah some are excessively unsafe, but if you're going to suggest drugs at all you might as well be informative about what ones are available and what they do. What business is it of mine if this guy wants to throw caution to the wind and take any of these? I would rather be informative and educative and let users exercise personal responsibility.

Really? I figured it would be more for the massive boost in hallucinations lol. I understand that educating people is great, but I still don't think you should ever be suggesting it. Let them decide on their own if they want to risk it; when you suggest things to people (especially who likely know nothing about drugs like the OP, though mainly because he doesn't want to use them) it makes them more willing to give it a shot without giving it full consideration. Especially given the fact that there are young teenagers who browse this forum who won't pay even the slightest bit of attention to the potential consequences. And in the meantime, you could've suggested some safer ways as well.... As it was, with your first post in the thread anyway, you gave diphenhydramine as the only option. There are certainly much safer and more enjoyable ways to experience what the OP was looking for, as I'm sure he would've been happy with any hallucinations at all. Even though what he described was comparable to deliriants, I'm sure a strong psychedelic trip would be just as satisfying. I certainly would never recommend diphenhydramine to someone with no hallucinogen experience whatsoever, even if I was all for promoting it.... Seems like a pretty good way to scare someone away from tripping forever if you ask me.

Anyway, I don't want to get too much further into this, I just don't think you should be suggesting it as openly as you do. I respect the way you feel if you have a different opinion, but I feel very strongly on this so I feel the need warn people.

I can agree with your opinion, in fact I should've been a bit more ready to. I seem to have a pretty good heart and a pretty good reaction to most drugs (I don't get very nauseated or freaked out either), I know a lot of people who react pretty differently to all the same thing so I guess I should have emphasized the danger a little bit more, especially considering anti-histamines put a shit load of strain on the heart, especially in combination with stimulants and dxm (I'm fine but apparently people get enough trouble with dxm and dph individually, let alone mixed together or with stimulants). But yeah my DPH and DXM experience is a little weird... I feel oddly cold and hot at the same time, and I feel this intense feeling about the whole trip and physically. Not like I'm under too much strain, but just intense. It makes me a little less prone to get startled on DPH too. The hallucinations are definitely more intense (mostly textures and buzzing on the wall and watching "movies" etc on the walls or on computer screens). I still feel tired from the DPH but it's more like I have less motivation to stay awake, rather than with just DPH where I feel like I'm gonna nod off. I'm also a little more prone to confusion and short term memory problems, but that's to be expected. Basically the DXM makes the DPH actually kind of enjoyable, and a lot more interesting.

Yeah, I used to feel the same way. I respond pretty positively to most things, or at least used to. I get lot of heart stuff whenever I do pretty much anything that's not a downer or a dissociative these days, but it's become lessened. I'm hoping that anything I still have is purely anxiety.... I made a lot of stupid decisions with my drugs though. Your combined experience makes sense to me though, as I think that much of the negative aspects of diphenhydramine (specifically a lot of the toxicity, fear, and uncomfortable body load) come from overstimulation of NMDA receptors caused by massive glutamate release. Obviously an uncompetitive NMDA antagonist like DXM would protect against that. I've actually never done the combo, it never really occured to me at the time I was doing DPH a lot. I still kind of want to do it, but meh. I try to only stick to the things with no potentially dangerous physical side effects whatsoever now, might as well not push my luck any further.

Your experience reminds me a bit of shrooms, actually... especially feeling hot and cold at the same time. A bizarre sensation.

Edit: Also, this is getting drastically off-topic. We should probably end this discussion or move it somewhere else.

Could someone actually answer this please? I'm pretty sure we're aware of what could go wrong. I've only seen three other threads talk about this in like a year of Googling, so any answer would be welcome. Also, me nor the person asking wants the assistance of an external substance.

Your wish is my command.

Keep in mind when doing the type of visualizing you initially mentioned, you are creating a window to your unconscious. You are seeing images related to your unconscious conditioning and neural patterns. You're going to see things based on this conditioning, which your conscious mind has no control of because it's based on your past experience.

To achieve purposed visualization, you gotta start by focusing on something very simple, even simpler than an apple, such as a blue rectangle. At first, you'll merely gain flashes of the blue rectangle for nanoseconds at a time. This phase of the process can be very, very frustrating if you expect to achieve results quickly. Building the focus to hold a blue rectangle for even two straight seconds can take a mind-numbing amount of time and focus. Once you can hold focus on a shape and color for a substantial amount of time, you can try rotating it, and go on from their increasing the shape's detail etc. Note this part is theory, I fucking suck at gnosis. Chaos Magicians do this because it allows us to train gnosis which basically means singular focus. You'll notice there is no room for other thoughts or desires when one undergoes this process.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

Your wish is my command.

Keep in mind when doing the type of visualizing you initially mentioned, you are creating a window to your unconscious. You are seeing images related to your unconscious conditioning and neural patterns. You're going to see things based on this conditioning, which your conscious mind has no control of because it's based on your past experience.

To achieve purposed visualization, you gotta start by focusing on something very simple, even simpler than an apple, such as a blue rectangle. At first, you'll merely gain flashes of the blue rectangle for nanoseconds at a time. This phase of the process can be very, very frustrating if you expect to achieve results quickly. Building the focus to hold a blue rectangle for even two straight seconds can take a mind-numbing amount of time and focus. Once you can hold focus on a shape and color for a substantial amount of time, you can try rotating it, and go on from their increasing the shape's detail etc. Note this part is theory, I fucking suck at gnosis. Chaos Magicians do this because it allows us to train gnosis which basically means singular focus. You'll notice there is no room for other thoughts or desires when one undergoes this process.

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Thank you so much for the tips and information :D

I have a question, though. How good are you at this right now?

I'm out of practice, I've been traveling the country (US) for the last 6 months and fell out of a lot of good habits, including recording my dreams, etc. I also couldn't sustain the motivation to put in the time back when I was working on it. In short, I know the theory but am not the best source of practical understanding. I got like 4 seconds of sustained focus once, and that was a lot for me.

I can try looking up the website where I was recommended this practice though, I'll post it if I find it.

Meditate and do visualization. Learn about self hypnosis. Learn relaxation ans breathing techniques.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

I got like 4 seconds of sustained focus once, and that was a lot for me.

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I wish I had that kind of skill at least. I could barely hold it for like half a second, and I've been trying all sorts of techniques for several months now. I also wouldn't mind knowing the website if you come across it again.

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Originally Posted by kadie

Meditate and do visualization. Learn about self hypnosis. Learn relaxation ans breathing techniques.

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I thought about meditation and visualization, but I'm not really sure my visualizations would be convincing with that alone.

Well you could use the black box or empty rice bowl method that remote viewers use. But that takes focused thought too.
basically you first clear your mind of all intrusive conscious thought. Only imagine an empty black box or black board. I use a black computer screen. Some people say to make your mind as blank as an empty rice bowl. It might take 2 to five minutes to get a bla
Cl screen. From there you should be able to add other images of your own choosing.

Sorry about the text skipping around but DM boots me off from time to time then I have to edit what was not autosaved.

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Originally Posted by kadie

Well you could use the black box or empty rice bowl method that remote viewers use.

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When you put it that way it sounds really interesting. I'll definitely try it. And I don't really mind the text skipping.

Let us know how it goes. I was going to suggest that you keep a journal like lucid dream or other dream journalist.
Anyway, I wish you good trials and all
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Hello, I know this thread is old but I'll respond anyway.

The kind of visualization you're talking about requires two things: 1) developing your visualization skills and 2) snapping yourself into an altered state of consciousness.

Let me explain what I mean by this. When someone has a visual hallucination, whether it's because they're on drugs or they are having a schizophrenic hallucination, they are actually also in an altered state of consciousness. In order to see something that's not there requires one to be somewhat in an altered state. To get an idea of what this feels like, and you've probably done this many times, think back to a time when you were in school and instead of listening to the teacher you start thinking about something, and then you start being so much into your thoughts that you're actually daydreaming, seeing what you're imagining, and almost like being transported to a different place, experiencing your thoughts, until something snaps you out of it.

Now I know what you are looking for is to be able to actually see visually without being in an altered state and thought I'm not one to say anything is impossible, I would say that some change of consciousness must take place in order for the vision to crystalize and look real. You can practice building these skills for both at the same time:

Practice visualizing a simple object, but instead of just visualizing it, also feel it, smell it, hear it, hold it, throw it, get a 'feeling/knowing' from it. Using all your senses instead of just your visual sense will pull you into an altered state much quicker. Start with simple objects, then move on to more complex objects, cups, cars, clothes, a person's face.

As someone wrote earlier, in the beginning it will only be in your imagination with microsecond flashes of it visually where you won't even be sure if you saw anything. But eventually it will become more and more solid, the microflashes lasting longer and longer.

What you're doing by practicing visualizations like this is creating connections in your brain to be able to visualize things vividly. Since it's not something we humans practice because we don't need it, we have never developed it and the brain connections are not there yet - but they will be with regular exercise, I promise. Look at it this way: people who were blind all their lives because of severe cataracts were never able to develop the brain connections to see. Once they had cataract surgery you'd think they'd be able to see perfectly, but that's not the case at all. It will take months for the person to develop the ability to do a simple task like distinguishing between a circle and a square. But will it be worth the effort? Absolutely. So, yes, it will take a long time to develop this ability, maybe 2 years of daily practice, one if you're lucky.

For those in here who gave the questioner a hard time about the question, I will tell you what an ability like this can be used for. Once you develop this level of skill (or even a more basic level of being able to hold in the mind's eye a picture) you will be able to receive psychic impressions in the form of visions. While you will still have to learn to how to interpret these, by practicing the other senses as well (hearing, touch, feeling/knowing, smell) you will be a long way toward becoming psychic. I know it sounds crazy but it will happen. We all have the potential, we just have to develop it. One day, you'll be thinking, where did I put my keys, and you will see clearly, in a visual form, where your key was lost - and you'll understand how this is the beginning of a much more powerful way of knowing.

One of the best books I can recommend on this subject, and all psychic/intention abilities is: Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. It's a complete manual on developing your abilities, with step by step directions.