What if science/mathematics is necessarily the same thing as spirituality/religion?

Arg, I wrote a whoooole post concerning this and it's lost. But consider this. A brief synopsis of the page or so that I wrote (I don't have the time to redo it all, but I really want to discuss this. It may be a little jumbled, but think about the big picture):

I had this thought the other day (title of the post). I was led to it by my study of Buddhist principles over the past year and few months. I have yet to read about Objectivism, but I was led to it by political media referencing Ayn Rand, and it seems to contradict Buddhist principles on the basis that the nature of being is only within the self. Consider zero, perfect nothingness. Buddhism holds that in becoming 'nothing', we realize that we are everything, and holds a general model for spirituality that is common across religions of the world, if properly understood. Zero is a concept that surfaces in ancient cultures across the world. Consider the size of the current moment, it may be represented only by the perfection of zero, and in our lifetimes we experience an infinite number of current moments. The past is gone, and the future is not here yet, there is only the perfect, immeasurable, now. Like one of those calculus problems with the rocket, where it occupies an infinite number of positions in a finite amount of time and distance. Consider that the best representation of zero may be a perfect circle, impossible in the physical world, perfect nothingness, and like a ring, having no beginning, and no end.
If everything that happens to you is the best thing that can happen to you (Chris Prentiss, 2009, an awesome book), then everything that happens is the best thing that can happen. And so everything that can happen, happens. Consider the implications for the human perception of 'time', and whether or not it really exists...

I saw a meme on facebook about a year ago (I know, hardly credible information, but hear me out) that said that an interview with a Mayan elder purportedly held that beginning in December 2012 we will gradually move out of the age of the fourth sun (materialism) and into the age of the fifth sun (enlightenment). Its not an apocalypse theory, nor is it good or bad, it simply is. And if the ancients really did base their knowledge off of astrology, using math to form spiritual beliefs, then this may be the most credible and rational explanation of what they meant to convey.

As I was investigating the basics of Objectivism, I began to have these thoughts. Then one night, I had them on my mind as I was going to sleep, and was half asleep and half awake while pondering all this (kinda weird state of consciousness, hard to explain). I was pondering philosophy, science, and politics, and how they all play into each other, and I awoke suddenly from this state, close to such an idea, but couldn't fully put it together. It took me a couple of days of consideration, and then it hit me. So I googled 'what if math and spirituality are the same thing?' and read the first link it turned up. Google it now and read it, I can't post links. Its called 'The Nothing That Is Everything'. Mr. Wiley explains it beautifully, better than I ever could, though I do not have particular skill with mathematics.

I don't think it can be any other way... If we are to seek to become nothing, in order to realize that we are everything, then this would be a perfect mathematical statement of such. All the world's religions (rightly understood) as well as math and science would be right...

This is not nearly as well written as what I had when I started writing, but the main ideas are there (most of them, I think) and this post has been kind of rushed.

I would like to hear what others think of such an idea. And also, if you have an understanding of Objectivism, I would particularly like to hear from you. Read the article if you haven't already, it explains it quite well. I would appreciate your input, and thank you for reading all of this.

I don't know if what anything you said actually makes sense. How is it not a contradiction to say that by becoming nothing you become everything?

To become nothing means to let go of your ego, your attachments, your fear, your desire... these things create suffering, and to become nothing means to free yourself from them. By doing this, you realize that you are one with everything. It is the essence of spiritual enlightenment, and what the religions of the world are designed to guide people to. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, whatever... the goal is the same. Read the article, like I said, I can't post links, but it is easily found.

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Originally Posted by nietstein

To become nothing means to let go of your ego, your attachments, your fear, your desire... these things create suffering, and to become nothing means to free yourself from them. By doing this, you realize that you are one with everything.

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What does it mean to let go of your ego and attachments?

Completely letting go of fear seems quite difficult, given that there are a multitude of things a person can fear in life. I doubt anybody can conquer all of them, or even a majority of them. And getting rid of desire seems blatantly impossible. Do we not all desire SOME thing? It could be something as simple as food and water.

Want to know what is really being said of 2012 by Mayan elders? This is the article that was connected to the meme, I found it:

What the Mayan Elders are Saying About 2012 by Carlos Barrios from http: // www . seri-worldwide . org / id435 . html (spaced out so that it will not be a link)

Carlos Barrios, Mayan elder and Ajq'ij (is a ceremonial priest and spiritual guide) of the Eagle Clan. Carlos initiated an investigation into the different Mayan calendars circulating. Carlos along with his brother Gerardo studied with many teachers and interviewed nearly 600 traditional Mayan elders to widen their scope of knowledge.

Carlos found out quickly there were several conflicting interpretations of Mayan hieroglyphs, petroglyphs, Sacred Books of 'Chilam Balam' and various ancient text. Carlos found some strong words for those who may have contributed to the confusion:

Carlos Barrios: "Anthropologists visit the temple sites and read the inscriptions and make up stories about the Maya, but they do not read the signs correctly. It's just their imagination. Other people write about prophecy in the name of the Maya. They say that the world will end in December 2012. The Mayan elders are angry with this. The world will not end. It will be transformed."

"We are no longer in the World of the Fourth Sun, but we are not yet in the World of the Fifth Sun. This is the time in-between, the time of transition. As we pass through transition there is a colossal, global convergence of environmental destruction, social chaos, war, and ongoing Earth Changes."

He continues: "Humanity will continue, but in a different way. Material structures will change. From this we will have the opportunity to be more human. We are living in the most important era of the Mayan calendars and prophecies. All the prophecies of the world, all the traditions are converging now. There is no time for games. The spiritual ideal of this era is action."

Carlos tells us: "The indigenous have the calendars and know how to accurately interpret it -- not others. The Mayan Calendars comprehension of time, seasons, and cycles has proven itself to be vast and sophisticated. The Maya understand 17 different calendars such as the Tzolk'in or Cholq'ij, some of them charting time accurately over a span of more than ten million years.


"All was predicted by the mathematical cycles of the Mayan calendars. -- It will change --everything will change. Mayan Day-keepers view the Dec. 21, 2012 date as a rebirth, the start of the World of the Fifth Sun. It will be the start of a new era resulting from and signified by the solar meridian crossing the galactic equator and the Earth aligning itself with the center of the galaxy."

At sunrise on December 21, 2012 for the first time in 26,000 years the Sun rises to conjunct the intersection of the Milky Way and the plane of the ecliptic. This cosmic cross is considered to be an embodiment of the Sacred Tree, The Tree of Life, a tree remembered in all the world's spiritual traditions.

Some observers say this alignment with the heart of the galaxy in 2012 will open a channel for cosmic energy to flow through the Earth, cleansing it and all that dwells upon it, raising all to a higher level of vibration. Carlos reminds us: "This process has already begun. Change is accelerating now and it will continue to accelerate.

If the people of the Earth can get to this 2012 date in good shape without having destroyed too much of the Earth, we will rise to a new, higher level. But to get there we must transform enormously powerful forces that seek to block the way."

The date specified in the calendar Winter Solstice in the year 2012 does not mark the end of the world. Many outside people writing about the Mayan calendar sensationalize this date, but they do not know. The ones who know are the indigenous elders who are entrusted with keeping the tradition.

Carlos tells us: "The economy now is a fiction. The first five-year stretch of transition from August 1987 to August 1992 was the beginning of the destruction of the material world. We have progressed ten years deeper into the transition phase by now, and many of the so-called sources of financial stability are in fact hollow. The banks are weak. This is a delicate moment for them. They could crash globally, if we don't pay attention. Now, people are paying attention."

The North and South Poles are both breaking up. The level of the water in the oceans is going to rise. But at the same time land in the ocean, especially near Cuba, is also going to rise. Carlos tells a story about the most recent Mayan New Year ceremonies in Guatemala. He said that one respected Mam elder, who lives all year in a solitary mountain cave, journeyed to Chichicastenango to speak with the people at the ceremony. The elder delivered a simple, direct message. He called for human beings to come together in support of life and light.

"Right now each person and group is going his or her own way. The elder of the mountains said there is hope if the people of the light can come together and unite in some way. We live in a world of polarity -- day and night, man and woman, positive and negative. Light and darkness need each other. They are a balance."
"Just now the dark side is very strong, and very clear about what they want. They have their vision and their priorities clearly held, and also their hierarchy. They are working in many ways so that we will be unable to connect with the spiral Fifth World in 2012."

"On the light side everyone thinks they are the most important, that their own understandings, or their group's understandings, are the key. There's a diversity of cultures and opinions, so there is competition, diffusion, and no single focus."

Carlos believes the dark side works to block unity through denial and materialism. It also works to destroy those who are working with the light to get the Earth to a higher level. They like the energy of the old, declining Fourth World, the materialism. They do not want it to change. They do not want unity. They want to stay at this level, and are afraid of the next level.

The dark power of the declining Fourth World cannot be destroyed or overpowered. It's too strong and clear for that, and that is the wrong strategy. The dark can only be transformed when confronted with simplicity and open-heartedness. This is what leads to unity, a key concept for the World of the Fifth Sun.

Carlos said the emerging era of the Fifth Sun will call attention to a much-overlooked element. Whereas the four traditional elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water have dominated various epochs in the past, there will be a fifth element to reckon with in the time of the Fifth Sun --- that element is 'ETHER'.

The dictionary defines Ether as a "hypothetical substance supposed to occupy all space, postulated to account for the propagation of electromagnetic radiation through space." Perhaps it could be defined as the "space between space". I would suggest it could be manifest as the alignment of charged particles from our solar system (Sun), and our galaxy (Milky Way) surge. The Ether element represents spiritual energy.

"The element of the Fifth Sun is celestial. Within the context of Ether there can be a joining of the polarities. No more darkness or light in the people, but an uplifted unity. But right now the realm of darkness is not interested in this. They are organized to block it. They seek to unbalance the Earth and its environment so we will be unready for the alignment in 2012."

"We need to work together for peace, and balance with the other side. We need to take care of the Earth that feeds and shelters us. We need to put our entire mind and heart into pursuing unity and unity now, to confront the other side and preserve life."
"We are disturbed -- we can't play anymore. Our planet can be renewed or ravaged. Now is the time to awaken and take action. Everyone is needed. You are not here for no reason. Everyone who is here now has an important purpose. This is a hard but a special time. We have the opportunity for growth, but we must be ready for this moment in history."

Carlos says: "The prophesied changes are going to happen, but our attitude and actions determine how harsh or mild they are. We need to act, to make changes, and to elect people to represent us who understand and who will take political action to respect the Earth."

"Meditation and spiritual practice are good, but also action. It's very important to be clear about who you are, and also about your relation to the Earth. Develop yourself according to your own tradition and the call of your heart. But remember to respect differences, and strive for unity. Eat wisely --- a lot of food is corrupt in either subtle or gross ways. Pay attention to what you are taking into your body. Learn to preserve food, and to conserve energy. Learn some good breathing techniques, so you have mastery of your breath. Be clear. Follow a tradition with great roots. It is not important what tradition, your heart will tell you, but it must have great roots."

"We live in a world of energy. An important task at this time is to learn to sense or see the energy of everyone and everything -- people, plants, animals. This becomes increasingly important as we draw close to the World of the Fifth Sun, for it is associated with the element 'ether' -- the realm where energy lives and weaves. Go to the sacred places of the Earth to pray for peace, and have respect for the Earth which gives us our food, clothing, and shelter. We need to reactivate the energy of these sacred places. That is our work."

"One simple but effective prayer technique is to light white or baby-blue colored candles. Think of a moment in peace. Speak your intention to the flame and send the light of it on to the leaders who have the power to make war or peace."
Carlos reminds us this is a crucially important moment for humanity and for Earth. Each person is important.

He said the elders have opened the doors so that other races can come to the Mayan world to receive the tradition. "The Maya have long appreciated and respected that there are other colors, other races, and other spiritual systems. They know that the destiny of the Mayan world is related to the destiny of the whole world."

"The greatest wisdom is in simplicity. Love, respect, tolerance, sharing, gratitude, forgiveness. It's not complex or elaborate. The real knowledge is free. It's encoded in your DNA. All you need is within you. Great teachers have said that from the beginning. Find your heart, and you will find your way."

The ice caps are melting much faster than we thought, go to huffingtonpost.com, im sure you can find the article, it just came out today. But also, the unemployment rate seems to have taken a drastic turn for the better, but some certain naysayers would disagree. Whether or not you believe any of this is completely up to you, you can call me and the guy who wrote the article crazy, you won't hurt my feelings :P. It's really not so far fetched, though. If you believe there could be even a grain of truth though, think about who it is who might be trying to cling to the age of materialism... some people who want things to stay like they are, and are opposed change... who have been saying some pretty terrible things the last few months... MAYBE they're the same people who would praise Ayn Rand and Objectivism, which stand counter to human connectedness...

Blueline: it is indeed difficult, seemingly impossible. Enlightenment isn't really all or nothing, its a process. Death is the ultimate enlightenment, but through working toward enlightenment in life we may become 'awakened', like finding God. Read some on Buddhism, Thich Nhat Hanh is a wonderful author, Deepak Chopra, the Chris Prentiss book 'Zen and the art of happiness' I mentioned is really good too. You could also find out what it means by doing some googling on Buddhism or one of those authors :)

EDIT: Think of Mother Theresa

The human race has a long way to go for enlightenment, especially the people Im used to dealing with. The government doesn't want the people to become enlightened, they want us stupid and fat so they can go on controlling everything. I'm not sure who this Chris prentiss is, but if he thinks that everything that happens to you is the best thing that could happen, he's dead wrong. What kind of privileged life must you live in order to believe that load of bull? Go tell that to the kids that get abducted from their homes. The women who are beaten and raped so the rapist can feel good. All the victims of every senseless act of violence that has ever occurred. That right there is enough to disprove that ridiculous theory.

The things that happen to a person are a combination of chance, and concentrated power of will. Don't come at me with this "everything happens for a reason" bullshit either. In order for everything to happen for a reason, your thoughts would have to not be your own. Thoughts are the predecessor to action, so in order for something to happen physically, it must happen mentally first. Free will would be a mere illusion if the world worked that way. Wake up sheeple...

So you haven't read the book... Are you so sure that you have completely considered the statement? However reprehensible and offensive to our sensibilities what you mention may be, you fail to grasp the full implication of the statement, and rather retort with an immediate response that you feel denies it without question.

Tell me this, since you are so sure... Does the universe make mistakes?

0 contains every possible equation. Nothing contains infinite potential.

Exactly :)

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

0 contains every possible equation. Nothing contains infinite potential.

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What does this mean. Especially "Nothing contains infinite potential." I can't tell if you're really this stupid.

Passing off nonsense as profound wisdom is not an uncommon happening around these parts unfortunately.

Edgar D. Mitchell, ScD, PhD | IONS Directory | Institute of Noetic Sciences

Some scientist may not want to be spiritual, but they are starting to realize that science is going towards a more and more spiritual side, perhaps not elven and faires but the power of thought, the idea of consciousness and the perspective of reality. I mean NASA physicist Thomas Campbell believes in astral projection because of careful exploration and valid proof and the double slit experiment is suggesting that things are only existing for us when something put conscious awareness of it. I mean it might not be correct but still Science is getting more and more spiritual and perhaps in a few years there is no need to call it spiritual anymore but science!

The 2012 is harder to prove though, although there is still no explanation of how the ancient civilizaitions built the pyramids, had information about the universe that should take hundres or thousands of years to observe and calculate. And their knowledge of sacred geometry. So before we dissmis their theories we should consider their science because they might have been more advanced than us in some areas.
I mean we can calculate when a meteor will go pass the earth, but if they knew more about the universe and human nature, they should be able to calculate much bigger things.

We'll see what happens :) One thing to remember: Lucid dreaming was totally spiritual and considered impossible by Science before and now it's still probably considered as pseudo-science to some scientists, yet we are all here? Be skeptical but don't be completely closed for oppurtunities of the new.

Whitman's Mind: Dan Dennett on Spin & Deepity - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg-4fmbpZ-M

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Lucid dreaming was totally spiritual and considered impossible by Science before

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When? Provide a source. When did any expert in the field declare it impossible? Note that "there is no valid evidence to believe this claim" is not the same as "impossible".

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now it's still probably considered as pseudo-science to some scientists

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It's a legitimate field of science.

I find this especially dishonest when it was actually the legitimate scientific research on the matter that convinced me that lucid dreaming was not a crock of shit, like most of the stuff the nutjobs here believe.

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Originally Posted by Photolysis

When? Provide a source. When did any expert in the field declare it impossible? Note that "there is no valid evidence to believe this claim" is not the same as "impossible".



It's a legitimate field of science.

I find this especially dishonest when it was actually the legitimate scientific research on the matter that convinced me that lucid dreaming was not a crock of shit, like most of the stuff the nutjobs here believe.

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Wrong of me I mean that it was considered more or less paranormal until Stephen LaBerge made it a more hot topic. Other examples of paranormal topics: clairvoyance, telepathy, thoughts effects on the world. That's why I used the impossible term because people in general are not open for the possibility at all and they call it impossible. And my point wasn't if lucid dreaming was considered pseudo-science or not, but the fact that what's logic today isn't logic tomorrow. A little easier example then to really see my point.

It used to be logical to believe that the earth was flat. If you said anything else you were considered crazy and people thought you were stupid.

Today "some" people and scientists laugh at the thought of out of body experiences, it's just considered impossible for some although there are also people AND scientists who consider it possible and see the value in the possibility. I am trying to make you see that what's considered new age today, might be science tomorrow.

So paranormal things aren't just as you so adequately put it a "crock of sh*t" and you are not a "nutjob" if you believe in something just because it isn't proven yet.


This might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ha_9Omn9obk (Note: I am not the creator of this video ^-^ )

It used to be logical to believe that jumping from an extreme height with nothing to break your fall would likely kill you. If you said anything else you were considered crazy and people thought you were stupid.

Moral of the story: the fact that there's no evidence for your opinions does not somehow, by some bizarre logic, give them plausibility. It's really quite unbelievable to me that people time and time again are apparently unable (more likely unwilling) to grasp something so blatantly obvious.

Before the issue was investigated, there was really not much evidence either way as to whether the Earth's surface was flat, or gradually curved. Anybody making assertions either way was incorrect to do so, and was certainly not a scientist. Only when empirical evidence became available was it sensible to have a positive opinion about the issue.

In exactly the same way, if you have no positive evidence for, for example, out of body experiences, you have no reason to have a positive belief they are real. You should give the same level of credence as you give to, say, the idea that there is a teapot orbiting the sun. Sure, one day this may be proven true. That is absolutely no reason to believe that it will.

A catholic who has an interest in mathematics believes that they have the whole issue sewn up for us :ninja:

The measure of my individual perfection is p, and this is a function of t (the span of my life measured in minutes, days or years). We will denote the day of my birth as t=0 and the day of my death as T, and I will enter the next life at T+ε, where ε is an infinitesimally small positive value. At any value of t, I know that the measure of my perfection is finite, that is, Pt<∞. I also know that to enter eternal life, pT must be infinite. Considering that Pt+1 is also a function of pt, that is, the decisions I make today influence my level of perfection tomorrow, I realize that Pt must also be finite. My perfection is bounded from above by a finite function of t and thus can never meet the conditions to enter eternal life. The formula for this is:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FHTRx0P2N4...0/image004.gif

Now, consider the perfection of Jesus Christ, which will be denoted XP. At any given t, XP is infinite. Even so, XP can operate on my perfection functionally in a finite manner but generally increasing at an increasing rate. Thus, my individual perfection does not have to be bounded; rather, it can be bound to the infinite through a transformation. If my individual perfection is conditioned on Christ’s and is transformed, I know that my perfection can approach Christ’s asymptotically. This can be expressed in the following formula:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FHTRx0P2N4...0/untitled.jpg

(Note that, even when conditioning on XP, f(p) can, over some subsets of t, increase at a decreasing rate since Pt+1 < Pt for some t. This is known as the concupiscential tendency for the imbedded error distribution in Ptto degenerate.) The properties of the dependent perfection can also be understood via the graphical representation below.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FHTRx0P2N4...s400/chart.jpg

So, I am not perfect, but, given a transformation through Christ, I can be perfect.

^Ugh.

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Originally Posted by LightofHeaven

^Ugh.

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My same, exact sentiment.

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Originally Posted by MasterMind

Wrong of me I mean that it was considered more or less paranormal until Stephen LaBerge made it a more hot topic. Other examples of paranormal topics: clairvoyance, telepathy, thoughts effects on the world. That's why I used the impossible term because people in general are not open for the possibility at all and they call it impossible. And my point wasn't if lucid dreaming was considered pseudo-science or not, but the fact that what's logic today isn't logic tomorrow. A little easier example then to really see my point.

It used to be logical to believe that the earth was flat. If you said anything else you were considered crazy and people thought you were stupid.

Today "some" people and scientists laugh at the thought of out of body experiences, it's just considered impossible for some although there are also people AND scientists who consider it possible and see the value in the possibility. I am trying to make you see that what's considered new age today, might be science tomorrow.

So paranormal things aren't just as you so adequately put it a "crock of sh*t" and you are not a "nutjob" if you believe in something just because it isn't proven yet.


This might help: Spirit Science 11_1 - Evolution - YouTube (Note: I am not the creator of this video ^-^ )

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The fact that lucid dreaming has had its existence empirically established does not lend credence to any of the other ideas floating around this site, or in the same arena. And if you seriously look at what some of the people say and believe in the beyond dreaming forum, yes, they are nutjobs. If some of them actually believe what they claim to believe, then they frankly need serious help.

With out of body experiences, people have performed serious and anecdotal tests to see if there is any truth to the matter, such as writing messages on the surfaces of operating rooms which the patient could not see directly even if they were conscious. They have all failed.

Frankly, I've never seen something have such a compelling explanation yet continue to remain a mystery. The sheer number of people who manage to induce an 'out-of-body' experience while attempting to have a lucid dream suggests significant overlap between the phenomena. There's no doubt in my mind that such events are simply dreams where the participant is placed in a realistic setting with control, but fails to realise they are in a dream and mistakes it for reality.


Also, many 'paranormal' events have perfectly rational explanations.

And don't put words in my mouth and blatantly twist them for your own purposes either. I didn't say anyone is a nutjob for believing in something that hasn't been proven yet. Paranormal claims will continue to remain a crock of shit (you can drop the asterisk by the way, we're not children who think that saying f**k is somehow less offensive than fuck) until they have evidence behind them. Just like all claims where the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, yet who provides no evidence for it.


What a lot of the people here see themselves: Intelligent open-minded people

What they actually are: Gullible morons who possess no skeptical thought, have no critical thinking skills, and who give their direct experiences significant weight on a site dedicated to showing you just how good a job your brain can do at fooling you...

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Originally Posted by mcwillis

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FHTRx0P2N4...0/untitled.jpg

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lol... where on Earth did this come from?

lol, I have no idea what to say about the perfection formula... what are the g and upside down A? :P Jesus = xp, get enough points before you die, or live to be 100 and you WIN! :banana:

Photolysis: how do you prove that infinity does not equal 0? Truly, nothing that exists has infinite potential, but also, in nothingness, there is infinite potential. Consider what 0 represents, perfect, intangible nothingness. Mastermind mentioned the double slit experiment makes a pretty good case for the fact that time definitely a lot more wonky than our rational minds would have us believe... If you're not familiar with it, then a brief summary of its significance is that the past may be changed (wrap your head around that one). The point being that it just might be possible that time does not exist at all. Zero may represent the size of the current moment, the perfectly immeasurable now. This is the only part of time that we know exists for sure, the past is gone (and unstable apparently) and the future is indeterminable as far as we know. Besides, the perfection of zero is innately infinite, infinite nothingness. The reason why I chose this site to join and post this on is because I came across a discussion about dividing by zero. Some argued that it cannot be done, and that the result is undefined, like we learn in school (like I did anyways). But consider that we can fit infinite nothings (zeroes) into any number. Similarly, there are infinite current moments in the duration of anything. Indeed even a nanosecond may be divided indefinitely into smaller pieces. Consider a fractal, there is no end.
Forget the Mayan calendar bit, I only brought it up because 0 is the beginning of that which makes measurement possible, mathematically a reference point before something occurs, and that the number 0 has a certain spiritual quality (Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is smaller than a mustard seed. In its perfection, could it have any size at all? O_o). Somewhere along the lines something great was lost with the ancient civilizations, and I happen to trust that the Mayans didn't have their heads up their a**es when they made their cosmic calculations.
I came here for open minded, intelligent discussion, what better place to discuss this than among a community of dreamers? Remember, we can ask who, what, where, when and how, but WHY is the only question that truly matters...

[QUOTE=nietstein;1949211]So you haven't read the book... Are you so sure that you have completely considered the statement? However reprehensible and offensive to our sensibilities what you mention may be, you fail to grasp the full implication of the statement, and rather retort with an immediate response that you feel denies it without question.

Tell me this, since you are so sure... Does the universe make mistakes?[/
Like I said, if you think that everything that happens to us is the best possible experience, you have a lot to learn. Mainly about other people and their experiences within this world. No I haven't read the book, but it sounds like I'd be wasting my time. I've considered such statement from the time I was able to think for myself. To say that torture, degradation, humiliation, and pain are INTENDED parts of the human experience is offensive. It makes me think that you are one of the people in this world that believes human suffering to be an evolutionary necessity. No I don't believe the universe makes mistakes. Just take a look around man. Everything about the planet we live on, the species inhabiting it, and cosmic events that have unfolded point to a structural existence. I'm pretty sure I grasp the full implications of your statement, you think everyone is supposed to get what they get. You apparently believe that everything happens for a reason, however fucked up that reason may be.

I not sure why u defend the notion of necessary suffering, but you obviously put a lot of credence in a higher power, for how could you believe every terrible thing happens without a predetermined purpose? Randomness and willpower are the driving forces behind the universe, even though they seem to contradict each other. What a wonderful place to be.

"In this book, you may see statements that are contrary to what you believe, contrary to what your experience has taught you, contrary to what others have told you, contrary to the spiritual traditions you grew up with, and even contrary to your own common sense. That is to be expected. If it were not that way, you would have already achieved the art of happiness. Because some of what you will read may seem impossible or foolish, even ridiculous, it may at first offend your sensibilities, causing you to scoff at it, ridicule it, and reject it. Each time you come upon a statement that has that effect upon you, I suggest that before rejecting it, you ask yourself whether or not you would want the statement to be true-- and then give yourself the chance to see it as true" -Chris Prentiss, Zen and the art of happiness, 2009

No one said anything about evolutionary necessity except you. You wouldn't think I was such a terrible person if you knew me or the work that I do. Every day that I go to work, I never know what I will encounter. I might talk to someone who wants to kill themselves, someone who was raped, someone who's children were molested, someone who just wants something to eat, even someone who doesn't care if they eat as long as their children get to. And I have. Over and over again. I am aware of the nature and scope of suffering. My job can be pretty depressing, yet I am honored and privileged to be able to serve others as I do. The tone of your responses lead me to believe you've experienced some pretty terrible things in your life, and it is not my intention to offend you. Let me rephrase the statement that 'everything that happens to you is the best thing that can happen to you' in terms that may be more familiar to you. God has a plan for you, and everything that happens to you is part of it. You have a purpose.

If you believe that randomness and willpower are the essence of reality, then that will be your reality. It doesn't sound like you're very happy though. What would you say if I told you that 'Nothing has a separate self' and that 'Everything is impermanent'? And that, indeed, there is no self?