Terrorists Again

So, I'm sure most of you have heard by now.
CNN on the capture of the terrorists.

So they were trying to smuggle liquid explosives onto planes to detonate them. Just to give you guys a quick rundown on this sort of thing, explosives on planes are really, really nasty. Even an incredibly small amount can do devastating damage, for two reasons: One, planes are designed to be light rather than strong. They're supposed to hold together in a crash, but they still aren't strong enough to withstand even a small explosion. Two, the air outside of airplanes is extremely low-pressure because of altitude, so creating even a small hole in an airplane just opens the floodgates for even more damage. That's why even a few grams of explosives in somebody's shoe is a serious threat--a few grams is all it takes.

They were planning on getting the explosives on board with drink containers with false bottoms. On top of the container is a real drink, so that it will pass inspection, but the bottom of the container holds liquid explosives in a separate space, dyed to match the drink's color. Detonation would be acheived via a disposable camera--apparently the flash is enough to set off the explosives, though I'm not exactly sure how that would work, since I don't know what kind of explosive they were using.

So, now that I've finished the intro, I started this to see what you guys think the implications of this will be.
They've already banned all drinks from airplanes, as well as other liquids, like lotion and such, and general security is up once again.
Also, they've apparently tracked the finances for the terrorists back to Pakistan--not sure on that, I'll have to check again later. So, what do you guys think? Should/will action be taken against Pakistan as a nation, and what sort of action do you think would be most efficient?

Also, I realize that a few of you conspiracy nuts are going to instantly associate this with the upcoming elections--I don't agree, but feel free to discuss that as well.

The repercussion is that airlines now have a solution for loss profits due to gas price increase. Sell water bottles.

But seriously, if this goes any further the only way to travel will be in hospital gowns. Come travel with us, it’s safe, everyone’s naked!

Funny, there's a report on TV right now.

They were reading off the list of things that's not allowed in carry-on, and I'm actually a little peeved that you now can't take contact solution on board. What if my eyes are dry or they suddenly start burning? I'm not going to stick them in my mouth, and my only other options are to throw them away (=$) or have a stewardess bring me some water and some cups and hope there's no turbulence.

So my wish to you all, may your eyes never bother you on a flight.

Yea, people with allergies or any other type of ailment requiring immediate treatment using liquid or gel medication will suffer.

My brother was once almost arrested (20 years ago) for bringing Otrivin on board for his breathing problem. He agreed to chuck it. Now, I imagine he’d be shot!

Well, they said that "medicine" would be allowed, but who knows how stringent or fair they'll be with that? Not to mention it probably wouldn't be too difficult to get around. There's going to have to be a way to verify that it is medication and that's going to take way too much time.

Not sure on action being taken against Pakistan as a nation... I (think) I read somewhere that it was Pakistani officials that alerted those in the UK to the threat in the first place. I'm not sure what kind of action could be taken against Pakistan anyway.

Yeah I just came back from holiday today and we weren't allowed flight bags ( had to be clear plastic bags) everything had to be in the suitcase including phones and books.

It's lucky my flight wasn't delayed.

http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/inde...howtopic=36161

not that anyone knew what I was talking about at the time

This is all over the UK news. I think they might have been making a slightly big deal out of it, but that might be me getting jaded after all this "terrorist attacks" that didn't happen but the media still reports them like they did.

The Bank of Jolly Ol' England has frozen the terrorists' assets, as far as I'm aware, and I guess they'll be tracing that money.

So much for our war on terrorism

lesson to Bush: You can't fight a war agaisnt an idea

Elaborate, Jlick.
Because I agree--an idea can't be fought, but a terrorist strike CAN be prevented. You can't stop extremists from being angry at you, but you CAN stop them from blowing themselves up on your airplanes, or in your cities. And terrorism isn't really an idea--terrorism is an use of force or a threat of force intended to coerce a nation or person into action, usually for political or religious reasons. Terrorism isn't just being angry at somebody--terrorism is going to blow that person up because you're angry at them.

So terrorism isn't an idea at all--it's a forceful action. And actions can be prevented, though it may be difficult. I do think that Bush's methods are heavy-handed and inefficient, but it is possible to combat terrorism. In this case, the terrorists were stopped from destroying the plains by the use of well-placed intelligence officers.

Though--I just heard about this, Bush was trying to divert money from explosive-detection research. He's going to catch a lot of flak over that.

a disposable camera... yeah you take it apart and then you charge up the capacitor (press the flash button) and then touch a metal contact (perhaps the bottom of the AA battery?) to the two leads of the capacitor and then you have a Spark!!!!

if theres an explosive near the spark then you get a Boom!!!

:microwave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsen

So, I'm sure most of you have heard by now.
CNN on the capture of the terrorists.

So they were trying to smuggle liquid explosives onto planes to detonate them. Just to give you guys a quick rundown on this sort of thing, explosives on planes are really, really nasty. Even an incredibly small amount can do devastating damage, for two reasons: One, planes are designed to be light rather than strong. They're supposed to hold together in a crash, but they still aren't strong enough to withstand even a small explosion. Two, the air outside of airplanes is extremely low-pressure because of altitude, so creating even a small hole in an airplane just opens the floodgates for even more damage. That's why even a few grams of explosives in somebody's shoe is a serious threat--a few grams is all it takes.
[/b]

---

Actually, the small hole thing is a myth. It's been proven that small holes on aircraft only have the capacity to suck very small objects out and the aircraft can land safely. Even large holes in the side of planes can't suck people out, especially if they're wearing seatbelts. There was even an incident only a decade or so ago when a full passenger plane had a very large part of its overhead fuselage ripped off in mid flight. It managed to land safely. Only one Airhostess, who was walking in the aisle, was lost.
Full Story: http://www.answers.com/topic/aloha-airlines-flight-243

There's just sick sick people out there constantly trying to Figure out ''how can I kill as many innocent civillians in one action?''

Infadels. World opinion is turning against these groups, because they'll kill EVERYone. Bombs in Cairo, Bombs in Morocco, a Bombattack on a Synagogue in Istanbul, a Bombattack on a Tourist resort in Antalia, Turkey, Almost every week a major Bomb attack in Iraq, Almost every day bombs of terror on Israël, We'll we've seen 9/11 in teh US, Madrid, London:


These people have the ULTIMATE disrespect of LIFE and they shall save NO one's life. Not even their ''Brother Muslims'' lives. ''Muslim, Infadel, Jew: whatever you gotta DIE westerling'' is what their SICK Ideology is all about. Infadels, Muslims that are too western and modern, Jews, Westerlings....We all gotta die they think. Well I find it no wonder that some nations are batteling terrorism so rudely: but the things is: who is your enemy?

There ain't no such country as ''Terroristania'' : They live and Hide like cowards between Civilians. You couldn't bomb them without making huuuge collateral damage. And they can simply continue spreading Terror throughout the world as they wish.
Allthough they cannot be stopped, they should be impaired and slowed down as much as possible to prevent even MORE casualties of their Insane Rage against the ''Infadels''.


Brittish Authorities may have stopped and arrested 21 terrorists planning a mass murder of ''infadels'' : PEOPLE like you and me, who haven't got any argument with the Muslim world or even Al Qaeda at all: just minding their business. But mind you:


I'm getting more and more FED up with this BULLSHI-ITE Jihad.
But one of these days, here in Holland, a terrible bomb will go off and kill many many people.Just a matter of time: cuz how do you stop an enemy you cannot Identify?

People have gone completely crazy and I'm affraid it won't take long for the entire world to light on fire with war and hatred because of those few groups terrorising the Entire world.

Patrick, it's not so much people getting sucked out that's the problem. When an explosive goes off in a plane, it does immense damage to the airframe--the typical passenger airplane isn't designed to take explosive-level stress. Because of this, the explosion creates a very, very large hole, does immense structural damage, probably lights off the fuel in the wings (though the tanks in the wings probably won't explode--they might burn, but not explode, and either way they'll leak), and the remnants of the plane get torn apart by the friction of the air. The pressure difference plays a part, but not a big one.

I am not sure how anyone can even believe this crap. I guess on a plane full of people no one would notice a guy screwing off a false bottom of a bottle then taking apart his camera and making a bomb. Then again they did take over an entire plane with boxcutters. I guess we are lucky we didn't make japan mad. Ninjas might smuggle in toothpicks and kill people by throwing them into their brains through the eye socket.

btw what's with these terrorists, sure there are things to fight and hate...but how does blowing up innocent ppl really help their cause...even if they are americans. I guess they hate the travel business? or maybe airlines? maybe they don't think there is enough rascism towards pakistinians or muslims?
im guessing its not that..."they hate freedom" like that one fucking idiot in the US always says..


???

Anybody know what kind of explosives they were using yet? I heard somewhere that they were a peroxide of some sort, but that's pretty vague.

Just found this. On the Implausibility of the Explosives Plot. Apparently the author heard the same thing as me--that they were using a peroxide, but he got a bit more information than that--that they were apparently trying to MAKE the chemical ON THE PLANE. Now I'm thinking the same thing as Alric--WTF were they thinking? That they'd start mixing a few chemicals, (Highly caustic, very, very hot chemicals that need to be kept at about -83 degrees in order to be successful), while the guy next to them just reads his magazine? I'm thinking the news reporters messed up their report--I have a hard time believing anybody could be THAT stupid.
Anyway, it's an interesting read, check it out.

Quote:

---

Now I'm thinking the same thing as Alric--WTF were they thinking? That they'd start mixing a few chemicals, (Highly caustic, very, very hot chemicals that need to be kept at about -83 degrees in order to be successful), while the guy next to them just reads his magazine? I'm thinking the news reporters messed up their report--I have a hard time believing anybody could be THAT stupid.
Anyway, it's an interesting read, check it out.[/b]

---

where there is a will there is a way. Not all flights are completely booked. They could buy two or three seats in a row, or maybe mix in the bathroom or something. Just the thought of someone attempting that scares the shit outta me.

Quote:

---

btw what's with these terrorists, sure there are things to fight and hate...but how does blowing up innocent ppl really help their cause...even if they are americans. I guess they hate the travel business? or maybe airlines? maybe they don't think there is enough rascism towards pakistinians or muslims?
im guessing its not that..."they hate freedom" like that one fucking idiot in the US always says..[/b]

---

I know, if they want everyone in the world to be like them then they shoudn't be expressing themselves with violence. All this does is close people's minds to muslim religion - even if it is just a radicle faction.

It feels like their hatred is a disease that is effecting the world. Is anyone else as scared as I am that another world war may break out?

The scariest thing is all these terrorists are British muslims. Atleast I don't live in London.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ;296730

btw what's with these terrorists, sure there are things to fight and hate...but how does blowing up innocent ppl really help their cause...even if they are americans. I guess they hate the travel business? or maybe airlines? maybe they don't think there is enough rascism towards pakistinians or muslims?
im guessing its not that..."they hate freedom" like that one fucking idiot in the US always says..
???
[/b]

---

Yeah, maybe one day there'll be a group of terrorists who stop and think. "Um, we've been doing this for the last 90 years, but we haven't got anywhere." and they never will. When is it that they expect a world leader to turn around and say, "Those terrorists have just killed a hundred people, lets give them absoloutly everything they want, that'll make everyone happy"

I can't think of one terrorist attack that has helped a group of terrorists in their cause. All it does is kill off innocent people, and neither side gets anywhere.

From what I heard so far is that the people they arrested did not have any explosives, stuff to make explosives, plans to make the explosives, plane tickets or passports. Thats pretty sloppy work right there, you would almost think they had no plans to blow up the plane at all.

The leader also escaped up north some where.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpaceFlower

It feels like their hatred is a disease that is effecting the world. Is anyone else as scared as I am that another world war may break out?
[/b]

---

no that would be sweet... id join the army and kick some major european ass.

Yeah, I'm beginning to think they botched this series of arrests pretty bad. I'm interested to see what sort of evidence gets brought up in court against them, because there isn't a lot that I've seen. Don't get me wrong--I'm glad they're caught, IF they were really trying to blow something up. Which is doubtful, given the evidence I've seen so far.

Space Flower, by the way, the page in the link explained that, too--the sort of chemicals they were working with would smell really, REALLY bad. Concentrated sulfuric. So no matter how few people there were on the plane, they WOULD notice. Even if they couldn't see it. And the stewardesses would notice as well--it isn't a five minute process, it takes quite a while. The bathroom wouldn't work, either, it's too confined an area, and like I said, components of the material they were making need to be kept well below 0 degrees--not an easy feat in an airplane, especially in a tiny bathroom.

EDIT: Plus, the whole time, they could've used something like Astrolite, which isn't too difficult to make, does nearly as much damage as RDX or PETN (the only barrier being its low density), and is indetectible in airports. You can even find instructions on how to make it online, I've seen them. And if they're being supported by Al-Queda, they might as well step up to a more powerful explosive, since the materials aren't too hard to acquire. The RDX I mentioned earlier is a solid explosive, and can be made by a moderately experienced chemist. Once made, it's undetectable by airport scanners, and it's plenty powerful.

I should just come right out and say it, they where probably fake arrests that were totally baseless. Most of the "terrorist" they catch are just normal people they release a few weeks later or stupid people they talked into it then arrested them when they agreed to do it.

To be honest there probably isn't a single terrorist in the US. Its all government bull. Like shark said, a terrorist doesn't have any reason to try and blow up any planes in the US, it just makes their case worse. Thats probably why there isn't any. If there was actually terrorist in the US they would just set off a car bomb every week in some random town.

...now we're getting somewhere.

I just heard that gel insoles you put in your shoes are also banned.

Like I said before. Soon you’ll have to travel naked.

I wonder is these reported terrorist activities correlate with drops in support for bush or the war or something. Nah.

Just found out that the Brits knew about the terrorists months ahead of time, and were prepared to arrest them, but postponed it on request from the USA. So it might have been a real terror incident, albeit an ill-planned one, but it was blown out of proportion and was never posing a credible threat to citizens.
Video here:
Politics-Terror Nexus

I'm really pissed off at the Republicans now. I do think that terrorists are a threat--they consider America "the Great Satan," so it's not a matter of publicity--it's a matter of religious extremism. Especially since the Koran is pretty explicit about how to treat "infidels". I just think that the way we're dealing with it is beyond stupid. It's putting us at further risk. I found a statement a while back on the sheer idiocy of the "terror threat level".
"Do you check the terror threat index every morning?"
"No, I guess not. I mean, who would?"
"The terrorists."
That's all it really is, honestly. The average citizen isn't going to go on there and see the threat level, and if they do, what are they going to do about it? "Oh, threat level is orange today. Better get out the Glock in case I see any Islamo-fascists in ski masks on the way to work." But a terrorist can log on, and in twenty seconds can get a quick estimate on how alert the security in airports is going to be today. It wouldn't be hard to just wait for a low terror threat day, THEN go blow up some planes, would it?
It's just plain stupid.
We ought just keep letting the CIA, NSA and FBI track terrorists, arrest them quietly, without broadcasting it for political leverage, and get them locked up in jail. That's how to make America safer, not by broadcasting our vulnerabilities on the internet and television.

Quote:

---

We ought just keep letting the CIA, NSA and FBI track terrorists, arrest them quietly, without broadcasting it for political leverage, and get them locked up in jail. That's how to make America safer, not by broadcasting our vulnerabilities on the internet and television.[/b]

---

You bet it is. I expect it would be a hundred times more efficient.

Yet for the government, postponing the date of their arrest (if they really did) makes them look better. That much is obvious enough to an eight year old. What's more impressive, the terrorist who is quietly removed and gets nowhere with his plan or the one that's broadcasted across the media and told to have "intentions of blowing up twelve planes on the way to America!"? I think the answer is obvious.

Still, in a way, they could have had a valid reason for delaying their arrest, one that's more than "we need to get more votes". This is an espionage kind of operation we're talking about, and those are never simple. They could've been giving the terrorists enough rope to hang themselves in the hope that they might implicate others in their plan and reveal links to other terrorists, maybe ones more dangerous than those clowns. After all, they seemed very clumsy in their plan setup. That whole "setting up 'My First Chemistry Set' on board the flight" plan is, well, not a plan at all. If anyone would reveal the identities of other possible conspirators, it would be them. But I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Like people say, though, the plan was pretty stupid. Probably would have failed even without intervention. So I'm inclined to think it was almost 90% about looking good for the voters. What's new, eh?

On the religious note, I know at least one of the terrorists was British, a "recently converted" Muslim. Kind of strange. A couple of people here (in the UK; like my parents) are getting at least slightly anti-Muslim. As for the more impressionable media-kids at school, I know a lot seem to think Muslims have bombs strapped to their back. :|

...i thot there was that one guy that made a liquid bomb and used a casio or something as a detenator that they modeled this attack after. There is a way to do it is what I'm saying. The other guy only killed one person with his bomb...but a few more bombs the size of his on a plane and i could see this new plan maybe working. If he got that bomb on and it worked i really don't see why these terrorists, if they used a little more tact, couldn''t have done the same?


yeah for sure they wern't a real threat, did the news in the USA make it seem like it was a real threat? It's not like the police can arrest people the very second they hear of a terror plot. The terrorists recently caught in canada were being monitered for months by the police. They were just waiting till there was enough evidence to be able to put many of them in jail for a long time...and to make sure they could catch all of them...and learn of possible connections.


I'm thinking there are terrorists they take down without telling anyone. If you spent a lot of money on security and spying etc etc...i think politically why wouldn't you advertise what you are doing is working?

Yea they tried to make it out as a huge threat in the US. They wouldn't let anyone bring any water on the plane or any drinks or toothpaste or anything else that was a liquid or gel. And they made everyone throw it all away if they had any. The way they reacted you would think that another terrorist could be doing the exact same thing over here. Of course that is total bull because they probably weren't even going to really do it over there in the first place.

Anyone who actually believes terrorist is a real threat only has to look at the border to see what a joke it is. If the government thought there was real terrorist why would they leave the border open?

The reason they delayed their arrest is probably because they were trying to find some evidence. Right now they have no evidence, they don't even have a motive. They are probably going to be released quietly a few weeks from now and no one will notice, which happens to most of the "terrorist" they catch and which have no evidence on.

As for secrets arrests no one ever hears about, thats a great idea. People can just disappear in the middle of the night and we will never know what they did. Because we really do trust our government that much.

Nah, actually the British had already collected the "evidence" (apparently, they'd had the group under surveillance for more than a year, but hadn't picked up anything big. Then a guy being interrogated in Pakistan told them that the group was planning said bombing. Like I said--the guy was being interrogated. Under such circumstances, they like to say anything you want to hear just to get away with their lives. So this guy in Pakistan points the proverbial finger. The surveillance guy hadn't heard anything of the sort, but apparently they dug up some chat room conversations and emails, plus the interrogation, and that's all the evidence.)

Anyway, the Brits had already found out all the information they were going to get, which was circumstantial at best, and nonexistant at worst. But either way, they had all the evidence they were going to get, and they were prepared to make the arrests, but the US stepped in and asked them to postpone it for a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsen

Nah, actually the British had already collected the "evidence" (apparently, they'd had the group under surveillance for more than a year, but hadn't picked up anything big. Then a guy being interrogated in Pakistan told them that the group was planning said bombing. Like I said--the guy was being interrogated. Under such circumstances, they like to say anything you want to hear just to get away with their lives. So this guy in Pakistan points the proverbial finger. The surveillance guy hadn't heard anything of the sort, but apparently they dug up some chat room conversations and emails, plus the interrogation, and that's all the evidence.)

Anyway, the Brits had already found out all the information they were going to get, which was circumstantial at best, and nonexistant at worst. But either way, they had all the evidence they were going to get, and they were prepared to make the arrests, but the US stepped in and asked them to postpone it for a bit.
[/b]

---

The police over here are hardly known for their skills at catching terrorists are they? A foreigner getting shot in the head four times for running through a train station is excessive to say the least.

Still though, better too harsh than too soft eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by badassbob

The police over here are hardly known for their skills at catching terrorists are they? A foreigner getting shot in the head four times for running through a train station is excessive to say the least.

Still though, better too harsh than too soft eh?
[/b]

---

That depends on if your shooting him to shut him up or because you actually think hes a terrorist.