Marriage? Think again.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

That's very wise. I totally agree.

As regards kids (since that seems to be what the topic is heading towards) I personally don't like the idea of having kids at all. Apart from all the money and effort you have to put in, what if the kid leads an unhappy life? What if they wished they'd never been born? The guilt of bringing up an unhappy, or somehow disadvantaged child would be too much for me to bear. To me it just doesn't seem right to bring a consciousness to life because of your own desire to have a child, when the consciousness doesn't have a choice. I know that's a paradox, since before birth there is no consciousness and therefore it never can have a choice, but something about it doesn't sit well with me.

I agree with what ranma said about having kids being selfish - raising a clone of yourself. I think that's very true.

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I should add that when I said I could not trust life long love for anybody outside of my family, I was not saying I could not trust life long love for my children if I ever had any. They would be part of my family, so I would love them and be responsible for them if they ever came into existence.

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Originally Posted by ranma187

Let me tell you something. I'm not saying what you're saying is false. This is just another very important factor, that society lets happen, and people don't talk about. It is also something a lot of women don't even consider, when they ask themseves "why are there all these creeps out there? why do they rape women? why do they fight over women"

And these guys exist for either 2 reasons. reason 1: They have bought into the mentality that society puts forth: That men Own women.

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To a certain extent, men cannot help feeling this way. If you haven't noticed, I believe that everything that people tend to do naturally probably has an evolutionary reason behind it, and men in all cultures want to make sure their GF's screw only them. Men want to "own" women because they want to make sure the offspring they are raising are their own. Men who didn't feel this way didn't have as many offspring--so the easy-going guys who don't get jealous didn't pass on their easy-going genes, and the jealous, possessive guys did.

However, feeling something and acting on it are two different things. Of course lots of men overcome this feeling, maybe some don't have it because they have grown up thinking differently, or whatever reason--nobody has to give in to every animal urge that they have.

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Originally Posted by ranma187

A "real man" will beat up a stranger if his gf even talks to this stranger and enjoys being in his company. These guys treat their women like crap, and when she cheats on him, He blames her, for the situation. That is not fair. If enough guys were educated enough they would have no need to claim ownership on their long term partners they wouldn't be so insecure.

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Yes, I think this is true--people need to be educated, that is the only way they can understand.

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Originally Posted by ranma187

And I accepted these beliefs without question, even though they didn't make any sense Whatsoever. And the sad thing is, both men and women accept these kinds of rules, that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

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Yes, society does all kinds of terrible things to people, I agree.

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Originally Posted by ranma187

And as a result of this, I would creep women out, badly. Because i would come of age where my hormones kick in. I would feel guilty, for having these natural desires.

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Another example of how both what society tries to do to us has to be overcome, and how by understanding our genetically driven impulses has to be understood to be dealt with.

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Originally Posted by ranma187

I'm not the only guy who thought like this. I have run into countless other guys who have told me similar things. There are millions of guys who are SO sexually frustated because they buy into this moral code that society puts out.

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I can imagine how men feel in even more repressive societies than ours (not to mention how women are treated).

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Originally Posted by ranma187

And because they are so frustrated, because they can't express themselves, This is what leads to guys stalking women, raping women, beating up women, some serial killers, some who can't commit violent acts, commit suicide.

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Well I don't know if sexual frustration and inability to express oneself leads to all that. I think there are pathologies and mental illness beyond just being frustrated that would cause someone to do things like that. I don't know for sure, I don't know about the psychology of stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by ranma187

So i Really think society should put forth another paradigm, that educates people in this area properly. If that happened. the whole world would be a much happier place.

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I concur.

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Originally Posted by ranma187

I agree, in a sense. People, will always find the opposite attractive, and generate babies, period. I'm just saying you can resist all you want and all that does is make the tension a lot tighter.

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Well, luckily we don't have to let the tension get tighter cuz of birth control.

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Originally Posted by ranma187

I have a way in which i make my own decisions about choices like these. And the way i make them is this : does this choice feel good?, Does it reasonably make perfect sense to me? Is my concience trying to battle this decision?
Now if all three of these mechanisms agree with eachother on that choice. It's without a doubt, the right choice. And why should i care, if some passerby on the street thinks less of me, if i make that choice?

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"Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be looking." H. L. Mencken

Ranma, want to hear something funny? I used to tell guys that I went out with that not only did I not believe in marriage, I didn't even believe in monogamy. They were always like, "Cool!', and then they were extremely loyal, wanting to be with me all the time, etc. (None of the relationships really became "open" until they were ending anyway.) I don't know if you can use that or not; I don't know how many women would appreciate hearing that. Of course the only one who got bummed out about it is the one I'm still with, but I don't know if that proves anything.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I should add that when I said I could not trust life long love for anybody outside of my family, I was not saying I could not trust life long love for my children if I ever had any. They would be part of my family, so I would love them and be responsible for them if they ever came into existence.

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Do you think that unconditional love is possible? I used to think so, but now I'm not sure. (Regarding people in my family.)

Also, I think that some people may become as close as family members; so even if you aren't "in love" with them, they may still be like family. I'm not sure tho; anybody could probably cause you not to love them anymore.

I really dont understand this "raising a clone of yourself" bs. When you have kids, you are not raising a clone. You are raising a new being. It doesnt have the same genes as you, it has half. You teach them values as they grow. If they dont agree with you values, well you have to accept that. Thats part of parenting, how is that selfish?

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Do you think that unconditional love is possible? I used to think so, but now I'm not sure. (Regarding people in my family.)

Also, I think that some people may become as close as family members; so even if you aren't "in love" with them, they may still be like family. I'm not sure tho; anybody could probably cause you not to love them anymore.

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I think unconditional love is possible, but not unconditional like. It is possible to stop liking anybody.

I can love people outside of my family, but I just don't trust it to be unconditional.

Pensive Patrick have you been married? DO you think you'll ever get married?

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Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Pensive Patrick have you been married? DO you think you'll ever get married?

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I'm only 17. Right now, as you can tell, I'd rather not get married in my lifetime. However, opinions change.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I think unconditional love is possible, but not unconditional like. It is possible to stop liking anybody.

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:lol: Yea, I guess so. Unconditional like, no way, you're right. Sometimes extreme unlike leads me to doubt my unconditional love.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I can imagine how men feel in even more repressive societies than ours (not to mention how women are treated).

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I agree. Women are handed a more crummy deal than men to this day. My brothers gf has been with him several years. She comes from a middle class family, and our family are average construction workers. Her mother Continues to shun her daughter, she has this idea in her mind that her daughter should marry middle class, and get extremely high education in other areas than construction. Her dad has "given up on his daughter".. Why? because she made a decision she feels good about, and for her own reasons? That's only a PG13 example of the kind of pressures women are up against.

And it is worse in other countries. Women have to cover themselves up. If a woman is the victim of a sex crime in an extreme in a radical muslim country. They justify it as being her fault, because women tempt men.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

What's wrong with sticking with someone in a non-married relationship and being content in the fact that you think they're right for you at the moment?

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Sometimes there is more than just living for the now kid and not looking for anything deep and long term. While you are young, I think it is important you get to know yourself first, have fun in life, and don't make rush decisions, marriage is not an impulsive thing. Well, it seems in America it is an impulsive thing, just like divorce is too, but it really shouldn’t be for it work and be meaningful.

Before husband and I married we were together for many years starting at age 18 for me, just enjoying being with each other, living life, taking trips, going to college, and having a blast - together. Best friends, no break-ups. We decided to get married and that took some planning but it wasn't a decision we made lightly due to the nature of it. We haven't regretted it at all, it brought us even closer. We had good examples before us of a good marriage, not one that is done just because that is what you do, my parents are very happily married and still love spending time together, as well as one set of my grandparents, and his parents and both sets of grandparents are also all happily married.

To the marriage haters - there are some things to hate about American marriage since there are so many different types of people that marry for all the wrong reasons (a TON of bad reasons I could insert here, picking abusive partners, etc.) or don't have enough maturity (not talking about just age, maturity is more than just a simple number) to get into such a commitment. And if you are legally married there are benefits that you may or may not realize. I believe this one of the reasons why so many people want to get legally married that are not allowed to do so are upset.

I also think those with the strongest negatives about marriages where they get the chance to pick out their own husband/wife have never seen a truly good one, and never felt that true deep love, that bond that is stronger than anything you could ever imagine and had the same feelings reciprocated back to them. Real love, not petty insecure judgmental unsure crap. From watching those around me during my lifetime I have to say I think this love is pretty rare, I rarely have seen this type of love between couples but it is gorgeous and touching to the soul to see when it is there. It has been proven married men live longer than unmarried men. This is for many reasons. One professor said they tend to engage in less risky behavior as a whole.

And for those that say it isn’t natural... Actually, everyone is different. You can’t say it isn’t “natural” for everyone, you can only say for only you at this specific time in your life. That is one of the things about humans that separates us from other animals, we aren’t just ruled by any wild whim that strikes us at the moment, we tend to have higher intellect and reason/think ahead. But there are even some animals in the wild mate for life.

I think a lot of people marry for the wrong reasons, including pretty much everyone I know. Out of all my friends I can't say I think they should have married their significant other. I predict divorce for pretty much all of them and it leaves me wondering why the hell did they get married in the first place if they were already having so many issues? Did they really think they would all be solved if they got married...it is like those people who think having a child, or two, or three, or five, will magically solve all problems between the couple...sigh...

vivedream - I'm happy for you and your successful marriage - really. It's great when it works. And I'm not a marriage hater - I just don't like the idea at the moment, although I'm open to change.

Thanks for raising some interesting points.

Vivedream: Exactly. Marriage is often what you make of it. If you go into it stupidly, then it's bound to fail. Not that good marriages never go wrong, but most of the time it's a bad marriage going bad.

BTW, my parents had me as an attempt to keep their marriage intact. Didn't work. Case in point.

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Originally Posted by Placebo

Vivedream: Exactly. Marriage is often what you make of it. If you go into it stupidly, then it's bound to fail. Not that good marriages never go wrong, but most of the time it's a bad marriage going bad.

BTW, my parents had me as an attempt to keep their marriage intact. Didn't work. Case in point.

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Yes, children need to be raised in a loving family period. If you are in your mairrage for you kids, you won't do them good. just leave, She will probly find another mate anyway!

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Originally Posted by ranma187

Yes, children need to be raised in a loving family period. If you are in your mairrage for you kids, you won't do them good. just leave, She will probly find another mate anyway!

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Despite what I have said about marriage, I disagree with that. I think married couples who have kids have an extreme obligation to stay married, unless one or both of them is a total psychopath or something. If they have a tendency to fight, they need to get way away from the kids to do it. If they don't love each other, they need to act like they do. If they must have affairs, they need to keep it behind the scenes. Marriage is great and almost always necessary for raising kids. I have no plans of having kids, so it's easy for me to scoff at the idea of marriage. I think marriage is a social invention designed for good child upbringing, and for that purpose, it is a damn good invention.

Gonna have to go with UM on this issue. I dont agree that they should have affairs though, as that is degrading to a relationship no matter how you spin it. And if they tend to fight often, then as mature adults they should be able to sit down and figure out why and talk and compromise like adults rather than squabble like children. In fact, if they cant do that they have no business making babies in the first place.

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

Gonna have to go with UM on this issue. I dont agree that they should have affairs though, as that is degrading to a relationship no matter how you spin it.

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I'm saying that if the relationship is dead as fried chicken, they need to put on a show so the kids will think it is alive and well. That perception is great for the emotional health of the kids. If the couple is finished in reality, they should be able to have affairs so they can handle living the facade.

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

And if they tend to fight often, then as mature adults they should be able to sit down and figure out why and talk and compromise like adults rather than squabble like children. In fact, if they cant do that they have no business making babies in the first place.

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Yep.

My stance - If they've already screwed up and had kids for the wrong reasons, then they should stick with it for a while at least for the kids
But they shouldn't have had kids to fix their relationship in the first place.

I don't know what to say about affairs.. I'm against them, but then it'd be an unusual situation. Mixed feelings on that.

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Originally Posted by Placebo

My stance - If they've already screwed up and had kids for the wrong reasons, then they should stick with it for a while at least for the kids
But they shouldn't have had kids to fix their relationship in the first place.

I don't know what to say about affairs.. I'm against them, but then it'd be an unusual situation. Mixed feelings on that.

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It is amazing how some people try to fix relationships that are hanging on by a thread by proposing marriage or deciding to have kids. Those are such terrible plans. I remember when one of my best friends had a girlfriend who was obviously sick of him and was really mean to him in the final days. She finally told him she was sick of him and that she was going to stay somewhere else for a while. Later that day, he had a bright idea. He said, "I am going to ask her to marry me." What???? :whyohwhy:

Oh man, those kind of marriages are so ill-concieved. Marriage is not a band-aid, in fact it is more like putting salt in the wound in that situation.

Well, i've always had a belief that I'll get married one day and that's it what I want to do. However, as i've gotten older (maybe it's just the way my parents are), but their marriage just seems uninteresting and lifeless. They still get along very well, they're definetly not gonna get divorced or anything, but even as their son it's difficult to tell if they're still in love. It makes me doubt marriage seeing an example like that.