Thread: Marriage? Think again.

If one doubts marriage, don`t get married. No one`s forcing you.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

If one doubts marriage, don`t get married. No one`s forcing you.

I understand that, and I'm not going to. That's not the point of my topic, though. I'm trying to outline my reasoning, see if anyone feels the same way, and start an intellectual debate. Hopefully.

The jury's out.








Give it an hour or so.

My parents have been married for something like 17 or 18 years now, and they still love each other very much. They hold hands all the time, cuddle while watching T.V., etc.

I know that I will never stop loving my parents, so why should it be impossible for them to love each other until they die as well?

I'm not touching upon marriage just yet, I'm just questioning your assertion that love 'comes and goes', and 'will eventually wear out'.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

In my opinion, Marriage causes more trouble than it's worth. There are benefits, admittedly, but to me they can't compare with the downsides of marriage.

I agree with your post, for the most part. However, I think there is one good function that marriage does serve. It puts a stronger hold on fathers and gives them much more pressure and obligation to stick around to raise their kids. I am not religious, but I am a very big believer in the law of nature that kids generally turn out much more disciplined and well behaved when their fathers help raise them. If marriage increases the likelihood of that, then marriage serves a good purpose for situations where the father would otherwise be long gone. There are of course exceptions. Some people turn out very healthy and stable when their fathers were not heavily involved in their upbringings, and some people turn out to be evil and miserable when they lived with both parents all through the growing up years. Marriage also gives the kids an extra amount of perception of everybody being a family together, which I think creates a great amount of security. It is incredibly devastating to kids when their parents split up, and marriage makes it much more difficult and embarrassing for a couple to break up than otherwise. In those ways, marriage is a good thing. There is of course the exception in which one (or both) of the parents is such a psycho that the couple cannot possibly live together without making things extra miserable for the kids.

But outside of that, I think marriage is INSANE. I don't get it at all.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

I know that I will never stop loving my parents, so why should it be impossible for them to love each other until they die as well?
.

Isn't this a more stable kind of love you feel?


I mean.. the parent-child love is kinda different to the partner love, and far more secure, hm?


What do you think..?

~

I would assume you grow closer to your partner if you ever have children with them.

I don't agree that people lose affection for their partners, at least not if they've chosen their partners correctly.

What's happening now, I think, is that marriage is taken so lightly these days that people marry the first thing that agrees to sleep with them. Well okay, it's better than that, but my point is that people make really hasty and stupid decisions sometimes because they know how socially acceptable it is to get a divorce.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

What's happening now, I think, is that marriage is taken so lightly these days that people marry the first thing that agrees to sleep with them. Well okay, it's better than that, but my point is that people make really hasty and stupid decisions sometimes because they know how socially acceptable it is to get a divorce.

I agree, Mes. I think people marry nowadays with the thought that if they stop liking this person, they can always get divorced. It's so easy.

And yes, of course feelings can change over the years, but it's not always for the worse. Love can grow much stronger as time goes on. It can go both ways.

Im on the side with Mes and Burns. Marriage doesnt have to work out in the way which you say. My parents have been married for nearly 50 years and they still have that spark that lets you know they care deeply for one another. It really is all in who you choose. People choose partners too lightly even with the expectation of divorce, and they marry before they really know the person, that is the reason for such high divorce rates.

this reminds me of the car commercial "Instant gratification has us in a strangle hold, Dont like your house? Get a new one. Dont like your job? Get a new one. Dont like your spouse? Get a new one. Whatever happened to commitment?" I think its a good point even if it is a commercial gimmick.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

There are, however, financial benefits that come with marriage. I personally don't agree that this is worth the risk, though.

There are also financial risks. It's sort of a toss up, but overall I think it is more minus than plus.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to invite the law and the government into their lives by signing a contract like that.

Besides, it's not fair to people who want to get married and can't, so I'm boycotting it in principle til everyone can marry the person of their choice.

Edit: I thought of something else. When people get married, they realize that the other person is stuck with them unless they go thru the expense and hassle of getting divorced. Therefore they feel free to act any way that they want to. On the other hand, if both parties know the other one can easily walk away at any time, people tend to act a little better. So if you want to stay with someone for the right reasons, and not just because you are legally obligated to, it's better not to get married.

Some great responses, and I'm glad that at least some people see my point.

One thing that I didn't seem to make clear is that, I'm not saying that all marriages will eventually fail, but a lot of them do. It is possible to love someone indefinitely, but rare (in my opinion).

In response to what Mes said about making the right choice; so many people think they've made the right choice but then it turns out that they've made a mistake. Life isn't a game where you have to marry the person who is perfect for you before you die. What's wrong with sticking with someone in a non-married relationship and being content in the fact that you think they're right for you at the moment?

I have been married, divorced and married again. The first one lasted not quite two years. The one now is in its 18th year. Will it last? I really dont know, it could , but there are and have been long term issues so I wouldnt bet on it at this point.

Based on my experience, there is nothing wrong with marriage itself, but rather with the people going into such. My observation of both myself and the spouses in each of my marrriages is that to have a strong and lasting marriage the following general points should be given consideration:

1) There must be an all around high level of intimacy. Both persons must not only intimately know each other but most importantly intimately know and be in touch with themselves in the same way. ( and sex has nothing to do with what I am getting at. Its a heightened deep seated awareness I am getting at.

2) Each individual must be at peace with themselves. If you are not at peace with yourself, its not likely you will be able to be at peace with another in a marriage setting.

3)Each individual needs to be independant, independant in the way of not depending on the other for psycholigical or emotional stability. Rather than having a spouse for a support, one has a spouse to simply share and enjoy life with.

There are other more specific points I could add, but these are the main general ones to observe.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Rather than having a spouse for a support, one has a spouse to simply share and enjoy life with.

That's a good one. Marriage counselors will tell you the same thing.

On a more fundamental level, I also just really like the idea of having that ritual to symbolize my eternal commitment to the person.

The modern idea of marriage disturbs me...

It seems to consist of two main parts:

• The eternal bond/commitment/etc. -- either religious or just intimate.
• The financial technicalities -- disgusting.

First: If the eternal bond is a religious ritual, then I suppose that's alright. I don't force anyone out of their beliefs. But if it isn't, what point is there in having a ritual to show such love, when it's already there?

And second: The financial technicalities...now this is the part that just disgusts me. People think about what they will do if they ever split up and write up documents related to that and their wealth in such a situation. What kind of hipocrisy is that? If two people are in love, why in their right minds would they think even for a moment that they might split up?

Moving on through the dark depths of this part: even with the above put aside, what "financial" technicalities could there be? We marvel at the fairer half for their kindness, care, beauty and so many other things and any man that professes to love a woman has only one option: all that is his is hers, always. He is to help her with anything and everything, care for her and give her all the treasures of the world.

So, aye...thinking about splitting up while joining into an eternal bond?
Paradox much?

Originally Posted by Merlock

And second: The financial technicalities...now this is the part that just disgusts me. People think about what they will do if they ever split up and write up documents related to that and their wealth in such a situation. What kind of hipocrisy is that?

I used to feel this way as well, but I've come around on the pre-nup thing. My wife and I had no interest in one, but I can see where it might not necessarily be a bad thing.

If two people are in love, why in their right minds would they think even for a moment that they might split up?

Compare the idea to buying fire insurance for your home. Who would ever imagine their house will catch fire? But who isn't happy they have the insurance if it does?

No matter how sure you are of your partner, something could happen. If I had a large number of assets and was marrying a poor woman, I would ask for a pre-nup. Sure, it's not romantic, but if she refuses to sign, it does suggest she might be in it for the money.

Perhaps statements that say marriage is bad aren't a universal thing. The success of marriage varies between different cultures.

In individualistic, typically western cultures, marriage is less successful by evidence of high divorce rates. Whereas in collectivist cultures, marriage seems to be more successful. For example in China the divorce rate is 4%.

So what are the differences between the two? Why are collectivist cultures so successful with marriage, when we are not?

In individualistic cultures women have much more independence with regard to finance, education e.t.c and are comparably equal to men. This means that in individualistic cultures, there are two parties that may initiate divorce as opposed to one in a collectivist culture, de facto per se (if that makes sense).

I also believe that the fixation on relationship perfection in individualistic, (western) cultures leads individuals to doubt their relationship over relationship trivialities. Surely the concept of love characterises this to a degree.

Although the high number of arranged marriages in collectivist cultures, along with a social stigma on divorce may create an illusion of success.

Did you know that in arranged marriages, partners report comparable levels of love for their partners, after 5 years, to non arranged marriages. What does this say about love and the ideal partner as terms that we use in the West?

Originally Posted by psychology student

Did you know that in arranged marriages, partners report comparable levels of love for their partners, after 5 years, to non arranged marriages. What does this say about love and the ideal partner as terms that we use in the West?

Im not sure if this is suppose to support or refute the original poster's claims. But that is an interesting statistic, where did you find this?

I think marriage is sweet, in the end.

It doesn't do so much harm, and it's a quaint yet pointless tradition which is quite nice.

Originally Posted by tkdyo

Im not sure if this is suppose to support or refute the original poster's claims. But that is an interesting statistic, where did you find this?

It refutes the claim in an indirect way I think. It shows that anyone can become the ideal partner with time, and so divorce for reasons contrary to the latter are premature.

Its a psychological study, I'll look around and report back to you about the specific citation.

Marriage causes more trouble than it's worth

Are you refering to just the menacing piece of paper you recieve as a legal contract. Or the actual relationship itself. Or maybe both....I think it's the certificate that ses you now have a girlfriend that you must not break up with unless you die, or unless you get another certificate that allows it. That one's called divorce certificate. It's dumb I agree.

Originally Posted by psychology student

It refutes the claim in an indirect way I think. It shows that anyone can become the ideal partner with time, and so divorce for reasons contrary to the latter are premature.

Its a psychological study, I'll look around and report back to you about the specific citation.

ah, I understand now, and I agree most divorces are premature or because people just dont want to work for something good. cant wait to hear back!

Originally Posted by psychology student

It refutes the claim in an indirect way I think. It shows that anyone can become the ideal partner with time, and so divorce for reasons contrary to the latter are premature.

Its a psychological study, I'll look around and report back to you about the specific citation.

Arranged couples really are more successful at staying together. I think it's important to take into consideration, though, that cultures which encourage arranged marriages are much more strict about these things (on the whole, anyway). Divorce is much less socially acceptable. I wonder if when these polls are taken, if people in those situations just lie about how much they love their partner?

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Arranged couples really are more successful at staying together. I think it's important to take into consideration, though, that cultures which encourage arranged marriages are much more strict about these things (on the whole, anyway). Divorce is much less socially acceptable. I wonder if when these polls are taken, if people in those situations just lie about how much they love their partner?

I completely agree. This is the side of marriage that I feel isn't too great - the fact that it impinges on freedom. But hey, what can you do.