That it can't be propositioned. I understand this.Quote:
Originally Posted by really
My point from the beginning is that, if it can't be propositioned, you can't talk about it.
~
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That it can't be propositioned. I understand this.Quote:
Originally Posted by really
My point from the beginning is that, if it can't be propositioned, you can't talk about it.
~
You miss understand my intentions.
Wasn't making an assumption just wasn't sure what you knew. I meet a lot of "ignorant" people, that really have no idea about anything.Quote:
If you really believe me to be ignorant of this, then you are the presumptious one.. lol.
I'll leave it to the official definitions.Quote:
Uhm.. This is a bit of a confusing paragraph. Can you specifically define fact, theory, and hypothesis then? Because I get the impression from this paragraph that you might struggle.
Quote:
fact (fkt)
n.
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.
a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4. Law The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
Quote:
theory
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another2: abstract thought : speculation3: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>4 a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory<in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>5: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>6 a: a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b: an unproved assumption :
Since theories are very often proven at different points in time to be wrong.... I by no way consider theory a fact. It may be full of facts but that doesn't mean it's 100% accurate.Quote:
Hypothesis
n., pl. -ses (-sēz').
1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.
2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.
3. The antecedent of a conditional statement.
You seemed to miss my point that all things can't be subjectively reproducible person to person... Just like someone who never worked out would have a hard time lifting a 400 pound weight someone who's never concentrated on their "psychic" ability I wouldn't expect to be able to read the future.Quote:
The point of science is to make it subjectively reproducible. In other words, so that others may have the same subjective experience that lead to your conclusion. Thus, making a personal experience of the incident. Do you not realize that you just argued for science..? This just demonstrates to me that you may not understand the foundations of scientific endeavour.
Can you define it as well...?
But does that mean that.... It's impossible for a human being to lift a 400 pound weight? No...
Do you understand where I'm coming from?
Yes sir I do understand the basics of science, I have taken many a science class and written many a hypothesis and done many experiments...
Depends how much acid did you take before you saw the pink elephant... Where you having a spiritual experience?Quote:
Actually, that is exactly what is called "imaginary". I believe I see a pink elephant, but I have no reproducible evidence for it. Am I rational..?
That's the actual definition for imaginary, you have no proof everyone here speaking about what they experienced is such. What kind of proof do you have that we are all collectively imagining everything? And don't tell me science has no proof for these findings so it must be our imaginations.Quote:
i·mag·i·nar·y (-mj-nr)
adj.
1. Having existence only in the imagination; unreal.
Thanks anyway do you check every argument you ever have for the rationality factory? ... Don't believe and live in the dark it doesn't really matter to us.Quote:
Can you demonstrate the rationality of subjective arguments in every discussion then please?
I was alluding to the fact that doctor is nothing but a title given to people who spend enough time in a university/college to earn their doctorate.Quote:
You don't think doctors would be useful if it weren't for school? People are still sick regardless of academic institutions.. what are you talking about..? Even without educational institutions, there would still be people who try to experiment and work on the human anatomy, and people would seek their help.
I obviously believe doctors need to spend time in schools to learn what their doing, you just don't understand the way this country could shift to a better education platform. But more specifically I'm talking about public schools not higher learning institutions... Though a major problem is price and affordability. I'll explain why I mentioned Guilds in a moment.
The major difference is the biggest and best. Free. Guilds would take people in who want to work in their profession and train them. Schools especially for courses like surgeons/physicians cost thousands and thousands of dollars.Quote:
What's the difference..? Can you define the difference between the two? They both seem like institutions to facilitate learning.
Guilds also worked like current day unions protecting their workers, just an added bonus.
Never, I told you I'm a fan of the guild system. Sadly I highly doubt it's coming back anytime soon. Too much money being sucked out of peoples pockets by colleges. The only way to get a high paying job in this day and age.Quote:
Of course. There are many ways to learn and some ways are better for others. Are you saying because there are alternatives, that we ought to just hand out licences to anyone who claims to have had taught themselves brain surgery? ie. Brian.
Just because I support an alternate way to educate doesn't mean I want people "self-teaching" themselves how to cut people open, I'd want them taught by someone with experience in the subject.
Majored in Business in a 2 year school, going to a 4 year school actually next semester to finish up.Quote:
I can tell by what you are arguing for. You must be under the impression that anyone in university is a pompous person, so I am worried that I am arguing against a bias.
I'd just prefer to not have to pay out my ass for classes. As much money as you can make these days without going to school...
No I'm not suggesting that, I'm suggesting that they produce specific plans for every child. Those that are struggling are given extra help, to make them progress and those who are far ahead should be treated as such and taught continually more difficult subject matter. Sadly our tax money is spent instead of educating our children spent preventing drug use. As much good as that will and has never done, or how about funding of wars, or lining corporations pockets. Instead schools around the country are underpaying teachers, filling classrooms to the brim and wasting a lot of children's time. Just take a look at a Japanese school, they may be strict but damn sure every one of them will be unbelievably intelligent.Quote:
Better that the developmentally challenged be in an education system then have no institution at all to go to. Are you suggesting that the challenged ought to not go to school at all and be home-schooled 100%..? This would circumvent the plethora of social skills that even the challenged ought to learn.
School isn't the place to first start learning social skills or anything, parents need to put more effort into their child at the really young ages. Is what I was trying to say.
I advocate a higher learning system that isn't based solely on income for higher learning. Yes you can take out loans or get scholarships. But not everyone is eligible, it should be easy for anyone to do what they want and learn what they want.Quote:
That's good.. this debate is a big tangent.. I'm going to try and simplify this now.
School system:
+ Useful for facilitating learning.
+ Although flawed, is still better than not having it
There. I think we can agree on those terms and continue on the main topic..? The alternatives to above is simply isolating everyone and eventually moving to a very segregated society. Right..? I think you're worried that I believe school to be the biblical plateau to enlightenment whereas I see it mostly as a facilitation and means to certify individuals for careers. For example; you would be much more relieved to know that a university certified Mike to do your brain surgery because he has had 10 years of practice under many other trained professionals and then certified by a counsel than Brian who has been completely self-taught.
I also don't advocate everyone home-schooling, i advocate state/federal government giving half-a-shit about it's young people. Instead of talking out the side of their necks about how we must end drugs to save our children while ignoring the fact billions and billions of tax dollars used to curtail marijuana use could instead be dumped into our school systems.
I don't know but I didn't learn my social skills from school, I learned them from interacting with my family, my friends, my neighborhood.. I always interacted with people whether I was in School or not...
DeathCell, there was obvious misunderstanding because I can tell we agree and all we're really doing is aggressively showing each other that we support the samething. It's funny actually.
~
That's what I was thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by O'nus
Oh thank god.
Synchromysticism? Wasn't that a song by The Police?
Well firstly, "from the beggining" it doesn't take that much text to point that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by O'nus
I can talk about it, but I cannot speak under common grounds because this is clearly illogical. Actually, it relates well to the infinite field of consciousness, which is now mentioned in another topic; "Defining Consciousness.".
On the other hand, I can say nothing. There's nothing for me to tell you; nothing to prove, and nothing to be proven. It's a matter of awareness and spiritual paradigm. It's like a mouth/larynx trying to prove it speaks, or a hand trying to grasp and snatch at air, trying to displace it. It could also be like trying to forget this thread.
Forget this thread.
Ordo ab Chao, Unraveling Odin's Knot, HAARP
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/...doabchaozz.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/.../odinsknot.jpg
whoa what is that scene with captain picard from?
Ever thought about something while it happens at the same time/a little bit later?
Happens to me all the time...
What do you call someone who experiences synchronicities all the time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox
well centered.
Some would say he is just really lucky lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
luck has nothing to do with it. One simply has to pay attention to their surroundings and synchronicities will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
I know, but I can hear the science majors screaming luck already.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
What on earth does "well centered" mean lol?
Srry I'm not a native speaker. :P
balanced
edit:mentally
I didn't read through all of the thread, but I did look at the first two and the last two or three pages. Anyway, I believe in synchronicity because I did find answers through the messages. One question just lead to another, and I didn't give up my search, and I was rewarded. "The Matrix" being the start of it all for me, back when I was 12. It took a decade for me to get my understanding, and it was a tough road. I had to endure a lot of emotional suffering and hardship for it, but without it, I wouldn't be what I am today. There is much I can go on about on this subject (some can be seen in my dream journal), but I will only speak if asked about it; although, I will share a little bit of my information in just a moment.
I see that Cyclic13, Omnius Deus, and really share similar views as myself. I also see that wendy and O'nus are just like the guy who I argue with just about every other week. It's funny to me, that the opposing side always uses the same arguments against those with the universial consciousness view. They always seek proof or want it explained to them in terms of math and science... but what they don't understand is that the latter is impossible. As for proof... why don't you look around you and see how many share these beliefs. More and more people are accepting it, and I remember only just a couple of years ago, it was rare to find anyone with them. But now, more people are willing to accept these concepts. Isn't that proof enough for you? You're on this board--a dreaming board--so you must be able to see what those three are speaking of or want to show you.
Dreams are your subconsciousness' way of speaking to you. Dreams are our way to see into the other realities. Dreams are information about ourselves.
Our physical bodies follow laws... our thoughts and spirit do not. All three--Mental, Physical, and Spiritual--bodies are the Trinity, and each one serves its purpose. Like any system--all parts are required for the machine to function. The physical body is bound to this place and is used to experience the physical reality as a way for our essence (the spirit) to express. The mind acts as a link that connects both our spiritual and physical bodies. The spiritual body is our pure form. To tap into the spiritual body requires a lot of mental power and will.
Think of it this way: You believe in thought and know it exists--yet it's invisible and cannot be seen by the human eye; the same goes for the spirit and everything else beyond the physical. Thought is our channel into the ethereal. Thought is that link that binds all the realities together; it is the proof that you seek of other realities, and beyond.
What is so hard to understand about this? If you don't, that's fine, but why attempt to crush the beliefs of another? Why don't you just ask questions, rather than find ways to disprove them? To reach our understanding, you must "unlearn" certain things. You must look at everything objectively. You can still have your scientific laws and mathematical equations, but they serve no purpose beyond the physical. Numbers can never show you who you are. Science and math explain this reality... not the ethereal. To reach the ethereal requires a little extra. It requires you to push your limits. Everyone is given a chance, but if not taken, then the doorway closes; and many have chose to walk through.
Duality also plays a large role in everything. One thing needs the other just as much as the other needs it. This creates balance, and balance is needed in order for anything to be. You can't have good without evil; you can't have something without nothing. Order needs chaos just as much as chaos needs order. Masculinity and femininity, etc., the list goes on. Contradictory contradiction. Rather than keep everything separated, bring everything together. Balance.
I am one of the best examples of self-discovery, and someone who understands themselves--not completely but enough to where I can write a book about it (and it is in the works). I understand what my true form is, I know what I am once I peel away the flesh, and I am almost a whole being. To attain that gives you strength, answers, wholeness, and freedom. And like many others, I wish to show others what it is I see. One can learn from the experience of another. I have, so that means others can as well. It is difficult, but all great things are meant to be so; otherwise, there would be no reward gained.
I don't believe in duality. Good and evil are human concepts, they wouldn't exist if there were no humans. Men need women because we need to reproduce. It's biology. Men and women are NOT opposites. Order and chaos are also human made concepts. I think you might be right about the spirit/mind/body thing, but imo the universe doesn't give a damn about good and evil. Actually I doubt it cares about ANYTHING.Quote:
Originally Posted by freak
"Why don't you just ask questions, rather than find ways to disprove them?" Because a theory is a good theory once you can prove it is wrong.
"If you don't, that's fine, but why attempt to crush the beliefs of another?" It's called debate. Wouldn't be much of a debate if everybody just agreed with you.
"As for proof... why don't you look around you and see how many share these beliefs. More and more people are accepting it, and I remember only just a couple of years ago, it was rare to find anyone with them. But now, more people are willing to accept these concepts. Isn't that proof enough for you?" - No. The amount of people who believe in something does not make that something true. Just like with religion. A lot of people believe in Jesus and God. Did/do they exists? Don't know about that...
I respect your views even though I don't really agree with them. I don't allow science to stop me from imagining either! There could be more to reality than what we know... Nothing is certain.
I know they're human concepts, but I was just using that to give an example of duality. As for the men and women thing, I'm looking at it in a spiritual sense, not the biological sense. Masculinity and femininity have traits. Order and chaos exist in nature. I'm a believer in the big bang theory, and there are other theories that can support the order/chaos thing, but I'm not a science major. One of my science friends said it would have something to do with quantum physics... but getting it to work is the difficult part.Quote:
Good and evil are human concepts, they wouldn't exist if there were no humans. Men need women because we need to reproduce. It's biology. Men and women are NOT opposites. Order and chaos are also human made concepts.
What they're trying to prove wrong is "subjective experience" as they say, but the fact that so many others experience it--though, each experience differs--shows that it's not as "bullshit" as they claim it to be.Quote:
"Why don't you just ask questions, rather than find ways to disprove them?" Because a theory is a good theory once you can prove it is wrong.
Yes, but unless it's destructive, there is no point trying to bash or crush the belief system of another. If we're out trying to kill people or anything else that seems "bizarre", then yeah, it's fine; but we aren't destructive. People should be more open and ask questions. Questions always yield answers to those willing and patient enough. Like I said--it took me 10 years to get my answers.Quote:
"If you don't, that's fine, but why attempt to crush the beliefs of another?" It's called debate. Wouldn't be much of a debate if everybody just agreed with you.
Well, I didn't really mean it to sound that way, but I kind of talked about the proof up there.Quote:
"As for proof... why don't you look around you and see how many share these beliefs. More and more people are accepting it, and I remember only just a couple of years ago, it was rare to find anyone with them. But now, more people are willing to accept these concepts. Isn't that proof enough for you?" - No. The amount of people who believe in something does not make that something true. Just like with religion. A lot of people believe in Jesus and God. Did/do they exists? Don't know about that...
That's good, that means you're open-minded and have a balance.Quote:
I respect your views even though I don't really agree with them. I don't allow science to stop me from imagining either! There could be more to reality than what we know... Nothing is certain.
The thing I have against overly scientific and mathematical people is that they lack imagination, and that keeps our evolution constant and nothing changes. Things stay the same and no improvements or advancements are made. Science also owes A LOT to imagination, but they are quick to forget that imagination created science. Before there was science, there was only ideas. People made all these ideas possible, and now that we've reached somewhat of a peak in the physical, our evolution is going up a level. Everything we say is just ideas, but all we need is someone to bring both physical and spiritual realities together to make it a truth. I believe it can and will be done... but maybe I'm just too optimistic.
And at Cyclic13: It's good to see I'm not alone in this. I'm usually surrounded by those against it, so when I find others like me, it's comforting lol.
great! you just described the very nature of this symbol.Quote:
Originally Posted by freak
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_yang.svg.png
And frankly i know synchronicity exists. I have had far to many profound ones to ignore it.
Masculinity and feminity have different traits, but they are not opposites.
Good and evil are subjective.
Nothing and something proves how dumb many people are. Nothing IS something - it's a lack of something.
Duality is, in my opinion; nonsense.
Good and evil are ideas but the concepts behind them are polarized...Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox
Nothing is a lack of something.. just cause you can put the word nothing and something into a sentence describing it doesn't mean they aren't opposites anymore..
Masculine and Feminine traits are generally completely different.(But theirs parts of both within us... just like yin-yang would describe life)
Such as Estrogen and Testosterone would be I think opposites.
Different and opposite is not the same. White and black are not opposites.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
In order to have opposites, you need someone to define what 'Normal' means. You can't count to ten if no one ever told you what zero was. No humankind - no normal - no opposites.
That's the way I see it anyway. Of course you're entitled to your own opinion ^^
Yeah, people tell me that lol, but I learned that through different means. I went from one extreme to the other, and I learned that neither is right and that you need to keep a balance with all things. You're able to help more people by doing so since you understand both sides of things, and it also makes you a creative person because you can describe both sides' feelings. I'm a male, physically, but I'm of no gender in the end, and my spirit chooses a female form. People tried to tell me it's just a biological thing and events from my childhood... but I was just a feminine male since the day I was born. I've had hormone tests and mine were what they should be for a 20 year old male... so that shows something else is at work. I knew things whenever I was a child already, and I always had people follow me around in my youth because I gave off a unique vibe. I'm a loner now, though, because I have a lot of trust issues with people, and it's a bit of a defense mechinism.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranma187
Those traits are opposites to each other, though. I have all the traits, but I'm more feminine than I am masculine so my masculine traits don't show much. Also, the "traits" I'm speaking of are personality traits. I know that everything is a label, but the concepts are still there.Quote:
Masculinity and feminity have different traits, but they are not opposites.
Good and evil are subjective.
Nothing and something proves how dumb many people are. Nothing IS something - it's a lack of something.
Duality is, in my opinion; nonsense.
I guess it's what your definition of opposite is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox
White I thought was all the colors/light and Black was the lack of light and color.
My opinion would be they were opposites, but your entitled to your own opinion also :P
My definition of opposite would be the farthest thing from the thing you are referring to.
Lifes opposite to me would be death.
Nakeds opposite to me would be not-naked.
But to each his own. :)