An Unfortunate Dualist

Found an interesting peice of writing on dualism. It should hopefully make you realise how ridiculous the idea of dualism is - or at least make you think about it.

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An Unfortunate Dualist

Once upon a time there was a dualist. He believed that mind and matter are separate substances. Just how they interacted he did not pretend to know-this was one of the "mysteries" of life. But he was sure they were quite separate substances.
This dualist, unfortunately, led an unbearably painful life-not because of his philosophical beliefs, but for quite different reasons. And he had excellent empirical evidence that no respite was in sight for the rest of his life. He longed for nothing more than to die. But he was deterred from suicide by such reasons as: (1) he did not want to hurt other people by his death; (2) he was afraid suicide might be morally wrong; (3) he was afraid there might be an afterlife, and he did not want to risk the possibility of eternal punishment. So our poor dualist was quite desperate.
Then came the discovery of the miracle drug! Its effect on the taker was to annihilate the soul or mind entirely but to leave the body functioning exactly as before. Absolutely no observable change came over the taker; the body continued to act just as if it still had a soul. Not the closest friend or observer could possibly know that the taker had taken the drug, unless the taker informed him.
Do you believe that such a drug is impossible in principle? Assuming you believe it possible, would you take it? Would you regard it as immoral? Is it tantamount to suicide? Is there anything in Scriptures forbidding the use of such a drug? Surely, the body of the taker can still fulfill all its responsibilities on earth. Another question: Suppose your spouse took such a drug, and you knew it. You would know that she (or he) no longer had a soul but acted just as if she did have one. Would you love your mate any less?
To return to the story, our dualist was, of course, delighted! Now he could annihilate himself (his soul, that is) in a way not subject to any of the foregoing objections. And so, for the first time in years, he went to bed with a light heart, saying: "Tomorrow morning I will go down to the drugstore and get the drug. My days of suffering are over at last!" With these thoughts, he fell peacefully asleep.
Now at this point a curious thing happened. A friend of the dualist who knew about this drug, and who knew of the sufferings of the dualist, decided to put him out of his misery. So in the middle of the night, while the dualist was fast asleep, the friend quietly stole into the house and injected the drug into his veins. The next morning the body of the dualist awoke-without any soul indeed-and the first thing it did was to go to the drugstore to get the drug. He took it home and, before taking it, said, "Now I shall be released." So he took it and then waited the time interval in which it was supposed to work. At the end of the interval he angrily exclaimed: "Damn it, this stuff hasn't helped at all! I still obviously have a soul and am suffering as much as ever!"
Doesn't all this suggest that perhaps there might be something just a little wrong with dualism?

-Raymond M. Smullyan

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Thoughts?

wow

what on earth does that have to do with dualism? im really confused here. its not a very good story because it talks about things that aren't even practical or real. the drug doesn't exist so why do I have to answer its question? I don't even feel it will ever exist. you don't need illogical fantasy to talk about dualism. dualism is very practical.

dualism is thinking in polar extremes, in black and white thinking. the belief here is suffering and ignorance is caused by dualistic thinking. its the thinking that something is either absolutely right or absolutely wrong. its the belief of the war between good and evil, and that there are things that embody absolute good and absolute evil. that either I am right or I am wrong, that either you are wrong or you are right. that its either option A or option B, and no other options exist. dualism is also the idea that while these things present themselves as extremes, as black and white, a lot of times its a lie to say they are extremes.

let's look at the american stock market today. what does dualism say?

dualism says "either pass this 700 billion blank check or SUFFER!!" that is dualism. is there really no other option? between all the great minds in america today, there is absolutely no other bill that could be created to solve this issue? of course there is!! but you will never even consider creating this other bill, if you are trapped in ego dualism where its one or the other.

only someone who comes out of dualistic thinking can say "hey, we have a third option!"

dualism is not a ridiculous idea. understanding how dualistic thinking has ruined our lives is essential for mankind to move forward.

we can continue further and look at the american government as a whole. how many people have been upset, or felt the government doesn't care about the man on the street? how many people for a long ass time haven't cared about voting? how many parties are there really, in our government? let's be honest here. TWO. because a lot of americans feel, they have to pick between two options that don't solve anything. if its either option A or B, then you are in a dualistic battle.

imagine if we had three major parties in america. that had equal coverage on the news. suddenly the politics scene gets really exciting!! and disinterested voters, get interested.

juroara,if you know nothing about the philosophical debate around philosophy of mind, including dualism, functionalism, identity-theory, and all that stuff, people refrain from making bold statements. Statements are fine. Just not bold ones.

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Anyhow, it was a pretty interesting text. Of course dualism is already practically dead among philosophers, neuro-scientists and psychologist. Still, this text is another nice though-experiment to see again how rediciulous the implications are of thinking an 'soul' has any distict features from the brain. Basically, with the knowledge we have now, we can pretty much say that even if there is a 'soul', a human being without one would fuction exactly the same. Seeing humans are simply very very complicated machines. It takes quite some will power still to believe that somehow, some tracendent thingy still plays a big role when it comes to human conciousness. Or human 'essence' or whatever biased kind of words you want to give to tie to the misteries of the human brain.

(

A person that is quite the mr-awesome in the whole philosphy of mind discussion is Searle. Maybe you know him from his anti-strong-AI-functionalists Chinese Room argument. Anyhow. You should get his lectures (on mp3 or whatever) about philosphy of mind he made (I believe simply called 'philosophy of mind', published by 'the teaching company' (ttc)). He explains all different sort of theories of minds since behaviourism (plus ren descartes and dualism, as an introduction).

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I am know enough on the subject matter and I'll make as many bold statements as I want

the subject of dualism and the subject of the identity and the soul are two different things. why? because even atheists who don't believe in the soul can still believe in rising above dualism

of course there are people who believe in the soul and separate the soul identity from the ego brain, but that is a different subject and one that belongs to the religion forum. this is not the forum to discuss whether or not we have a soul

dualism on itself on the other hand is something we can talk about outside of spiritual and religious beliefs

Dualism is inherently non-duality.

Duality hinges on a single pin

I hate John Searle... his arguments are ridiculous.

Get out of my thread juroara. You obviously don't understand what we're talking about here. We're talking about the existence of a soul and it's relation to the physical body. And it's just philosophy - just ideas. Don't get so worked up. So if you don't want to talk about the subject, get out.

hi! still here

what on earth does that have to do with dualism? again, even atheists who don't believe in the soul, who don't believe in God still find the idea behind dualism practical in overcoming a lower ego

I want to know why you feel the idea of dualism is stupid? or why you are insistent dualism is about the soul and not ignorance based on seeing the world in two extremes?

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

We're talking about the existence of a soul and it's relation to the physical body.

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That's the problem I'm having when I read this. It says this drug kills the soul, but the body continues to function in exactly the same manner. What has been removed by the drug? What has changed? All it says is that "the soul" has been removed, yet "the soul" is left undefined. It might as well be wondering what happens when we take away our habblemaffer.

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Originally Posted by Mark75

That's the problem I'm having when I read this. It says this drug kills the soul, but the body continues to function in exactly the same manner. What has been removed by the drug? What has changed? All it says is that "the soul" has been removed, yet "the soul" is left undefined. It might as well be wondering what happens when we take away our habblemaffer.

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Bingo. That's the point the story drives home.

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Originally Posted by juroara

wow

what on earth does that have to do with dualism? im really confused here. its not a very good story because it talks about things that aren't even practical or real. the drug doesn't exist so why do I have to answer its question? I don't even feel it will ever exist. you don't need illogical fantasy to talk about dualism. dualism is very practical.

dualism is thinking in polar extremes, in black and white thinking. the belief here is suffering and ignorance is caused by dualistic thinking. its the thinking that something is either absolutely right or absolutely wrong. its the belief of the war between good and evil, and that there are things that embody absolute good and absolute evil. that either I am right or I am wrong, that either you are wrong or you are right. that its either option A or option B, and no other options exist. dualism is also the idea that while these things present themselves as extremes, as black and white, a lot of times its a lie to say they are extremes.

let's look at the american stock market today. what does dualism say?

dualism says "either pass this 700 billion blank check or SUFFER!!" that is dualism. is there really no other option? between all the great minds in america today, there is absolutely no other bill that could be created to solve this issue? of course there is!! but you will never even consider creating this other bill, if you are trapped in ego dualism where its one or the other.

only someone who comes out of dualistic thinking can say "hey, we have a third option!"

dualism is not a ridiculous idea. understanding how dualistic thinking has ruined our lives is essential for mankind to move forward.

we can continue further and look at the american government as a whole. how many people have been upset, or felt the government doesn't care about the man on the street? how many people for a long ass time haven't cared about voting? how many parties are there really, in our government? let's be honest here. TWO. because a lot of americans feel, they have to pick between two options that don't solve anything. if its either option A or B, then you are in a dualistic battle.

imagine if we had three major parties in america. that had equal coverage on the news. suddenly the politics scene gets really exciting!! and disinterested voters, get interested.

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No, It's not.
Dualism in a philosophical sense refers to the mind and body as seperate entities.

Maybe that doesn't fit the New-Age dualism you know about, but who cares.

Yep, Forsaken understands it. I'm not saying this text is true or should be taken literally. It's just an interesting thought experiment. Please, people, let's not start a flame battle.

jurora, before talking at length about this subject, perhaps you'd be so kind as to read up on what dualism means.

I always find that the best argument against dualism is the most basic.

If the mind or sould or whatever-you-will is non-physical and the body is physical, how is it proposed the physical interacts with non-physical existence. Descartes said it was the pineal gland, but how does whatever material the pineal gland is tap into the non physical, without being non-physical itself, here cannot be a link by definition.


Good text indeed, although decent arguments for dualism are few and far, more against it just bury it further.

Obviously consciousness and matter are not separate. This doesn't mean consciousness does not exist, though. It seems so simple to me, and yet no one else see's it. Consciousness is the principle of energy, just as energy is the principle of matter. It's not that witohut consciousness, there is no energy, it's that energy is made of consciousness, it is densified consciousness. There is no pituitary gland communicating, nor your heart nor your spinal cord, communication is not necessary between the body and your consciousness anymore than somebody must communicate to themselves.

But assuming dualism is real, I liked the question about the spouse, as in if your spouse took it, how would you feel? I feel like it's the fact that my lover is a conscious person sharing these experiences with me that makes it worth it. Otherwise I'm just hanging out myself, it's the fact that she's real, that she feels and reacts, that makes it a relationship; makes me want to talk to her in the first place.

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I always find that the best argument against dualism is the most basic.

If the mind or sould or whatever-you-will is non-physical and the body is physical, how is it proposed the physical interacts with non-physical existence. Descartes said it was the pineal gland, but how does whatever material the pineal gland is tap into the non physical, without being non-physical itself, here cannot be a link by definition.

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That is quite a good argument.

The fact that we are conscious in bodies controlled by brains is also clear evidence that the mind arises from the physical; if the physical was not important, why are our minds associated with the most complex physical objects in the universe? Coversely, if consciousness has no physical manifestations, then where did the physical manifestations of this conversation come from?

Excellent argument, there are physical manifestation of consciousness all around us. When your arm moves, that is a manifestation of consciousness. Every action and every decision is a manifestation of consciousness.

The question then is can you prove that anything that happens is NOT a manifestation of consciousness?

Crouching tiger, hidden semantics.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken

Bingo. That's the point the story drives home.

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Oh, okay. I looked up dualism on Wikipedia, but there were a bunch of definitions. I assume it's the kind Omicron is talking about. Makes sense now.

One would also question why anyone has any form of subjective experience based on a purely physicalist understanding of the universe. Surely all existence should be nothing more than information. The same inability the dualist has in explaining how the "soul" interacts with the "body" is echoed in physicalism which either ignores "subjective experience" or says such experience (what we are all, I assume, experiencing right now) "arises from the body", an equally incomprehensible statement with no valid scientific connection other than correlation with no clear form of causation.

I wouldn't call myself a physicalist but I still reject dualism. Personally I think physical and mental are both aspects of the same structure; a structure we might call 'logic' or 'mathematics' or 'platonic reality'.

Rejecting dualism is duality, or maybe duality is duality, and can not truly exist in rejection not being duality?

Contextualise what you please.

If there is only one truth is there duality?

I have a lot more to add. I don't mean to make your topic seem simplictic Patrick with such a short answer. It is what came to my mind and stuck there.