What Obama has already done for the country

Well lets thank the universe you aren't in charge or else you would start a godamn world war with your brutal and barbaric stone age primitive tactics and ideas.

Read the us army manual, there are 19 interogation tactics in that book, and to my knowledge they all abide by the geneva conventions:

Any tactic which is humane can be used, and I would use those tactics, I don't memorize them so I can't write them out right now.

But I assure you, no torture would happen if I was in the room....I do admit it would be tempting but it is not right, it is not moral to torture those who want to mentally torture us with the thought of a loved one dying, or a city blowing up...you cannot let emotions get in the way...its not intelligent to act on emotion in situations like that.

Say you do torture this man, his resistance movement will have more of a reason and a cause to gain more followers to blow you and me up, so its COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO TORTURE.

How else can I explain this to you? It is not that hard to comprehend, unless you still are stuck in the stone age that is.

The Iraqis didn't have sodding nukes.

^ for all you know

anyways, I believe in this world there are no absolutes. I cannot 100% say that torturing is NEVER right. There are extremes to situations and it will happen. However, most prisoners do not deserve such treatment and there has to be a better way of routing out who does or who doesnt.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The city is more important than that piece of shit. Fuck him.

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Its that specific line of thought that is your main reason for not understanding why torture is immoral and wrong, I do understand your point of view, but it is flawed...emotional based and no thought behind it other then an emotional response...a vengence....revenge.

It is wrong, you are using pure rage and emotion to deal with a delicate problem, thank GOD you aren't an interrogation officer.

Although, the city IS more important than the terrorist, you cannot resort to becoming a terrorist yourself to save this city, we are better then that and we cannot stoop down to their pitiful level, you UM have stooped to their level and you aren't any better then them for saying what you say.

Stick a knife up his ass? isn't that terrorism?

The definition of terrorism is the use terror as a tool to scare people into doing what you tell them.

So, in a way your a terrorist for torturing the man to scare him into telling you what he knows, good job becoming what you are trying to fight.


MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

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Originally Posted by guerilla

Well lets thank the universe you aren't in charge or else you would start a godamn world war with your brutal and barbaric stone age primitive tactics and ideas.

Read the us army manual, there are 19 interogation tactics in that book, and to my knowledge they all abide by the geneva conventions:

Any tactic which is humane can be used, and I would use those tactics, I don't memorize them so I can't write them out right now.

But I assure you, no torture would happen if I was in the room....I do admit it would be tempting but it is not right, it is not moral to torture those who want to mentally torture us with the thought of a loved one dying, or a city blowing up...you cannot let emotions get in the way...its not intelligent to act on emotion in situations like that.

Say you do torture this man, his resistance movement will have more of a reason and a cause to gain more followers to blow you and me up, so its COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO TORTURE.

How else can I explain this to you? It is not that hard to comprehend, unless you still are stuck in the stone age that is.

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I still want specifics, and you are not giving them.

My stance is not all emotional. It is logical. Save the city, not the terrorist! But like I said, torture should be illegal because the legality of it would cause a great deal of trouble. I am saying sometimes the law must be broken for the greater good. I bet my left leg you would agree with me if you were faced with the situations I am talking about. I think everybody in this thread would.

Again, I am asking for specifics. Tell me a detailed, rational plan for getting very necessary information out of terrorists. I want to know.

By the way, waterboarding is "by the book". Are you okay with it? What specifically are you okay with? Buying terrorists ice cream so they will like us and open up their hearts?

And I don't care if I commit terrorism against terrorists. They are lower than cockroaches.

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^ for all you know

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Ugh. The US was desperate. The US is also the most powerful nation on Earth. These two things tend to lead to results where applicable.

and My cousin is a weapons expert who regularly gets sent to Iraq. He constantly updates us on the fact that they are still searching the desert for these weapons because they are afraid of it infecting the water table.

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

and My cousin is a weapons expert who regularly gets sent to Iraq. He constantly updates us on the fact that they are still searching the desert for these weapons because they are afraid of it infecting the water table.

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What? Doesn't your cousin know that not being able to find something proves that it never existed?

Well the US isn't in danger of anyone blowing up an entire city and we still torture people. So even if you think torture is ok in extreme situation, the fact is we are not in extreme situation and it should not be used or acceptable in this country.

Though I agree, torture is never acceptable. Its not a crime against a terrorist, its a crime against humanity. You just do not do things like that. Period. Its a part of being human.

you also dont cut civilians heads off on public tv...

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Originally Posted by Alric

Well the US isn't in danger of anyone blowing up an entire city

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How do you know? If what you said is true, wouldn't it be because of the tactics our government has used? There are very large networks of terrorists out there who have dedicated their lives to doing exactly that.

I still want to know the best way to get captured terrorists to talk.

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

you also dont cut civilians heads off on public tv...

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But let's not complain about that. Let's just complain about the United States.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Your concept of justice is medieval.

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My sense of justice is actually justice.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I still want specifics, and you are not giving them.

My stance is not all emotional. It is logical. Save the city, not the terrorist! But like I said, torture should be illegal because the legality of it would cause a great deal of trouble. I am saying sometimes the law must be broken for the greater good. I bet my left leg you would agree with me if you were faced with the situations I am talking about. I think everybody in this thread would.

Again, I am asking for specifics. Tell me a detailed, rational plan for getting very necessary information out of terrorists. I want to know.

By the way, waterboarding is "by the book". Are you okay with it? What specifically are you okay with? Buying terrorists ice cream so they will like us and open up their hearts?

And I don't care if I commit terrorism against terrorists. They are lower than cockroaches.

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Ok I will theorize a plan, if you wish.

I don't condone waterboarding, I would remove it from said book, and any other torturous procedures that are common practice.

You just stated "I don't care if I commit terrorism against terrorists"

That makes you as low as them, and you called them lower then cockroaches, what would that make you then? A cockroach..and I don't think you want to be as low as they are.

So heres my "plan"


1. Said prisoner would be placed in a chair and have their hands and arms tied behind their backs to prevent them from attacking the interogator.

2. Previous to interogation gather all known information to the suspects friends or family, and on their terror group.

3. I would use this knowledge of his family and friends for persuasion or a false statement, lying isn't torture :)

4. I would be sure to speak arabic to verbally attack him in his own language and to use passages from his quoran citing islam means peace, NOT violence, and that allah preaches peace and that he wont goto heaven for what he has done.

5. Pushing or mild slapping I would tolerate, which is not torture.







Obviously, I don't work for the FBI or the CIA or any agency, so I do not know the proper non torture procedure, so my plan might suck miserably, also I was high when I wrote it.

I think thats all I have left to say in this thread

Question: Was it right for the Japanese, in spring 1945, to torture American soldiers to help prevent the nuking of their cities?

(cleaning man walks through with condescending look and shakes his head)

Studies show torture is not an effective way to gain information. The most effective way is to find the enemies that had second doubts about the procedure, and befriending them. They've been doing this in Iraq and it's been a much more powerful information gathering tool than to send people to secret prisons. Torture entrenches the enemy against you. He'll talk, but he'll say anything whether it's accurate or not.

:rainbow:

Now someone mentioned drilling for oil to decrease oil prices. If we start drilling now, we'll get a drop in the bucket in ten years. Meanwhile, there's a new invention to harness wind energy and new types of water turbines that can be in mass operation between this year and 2011 which would produce enough energy to cut the demand on oil in half, thus reducing the price. I think that's much more effective than destroying wildlife reserves so we can lower gas prices in 8-10 years, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Meanwhile, there's a new invention to harness wind energy

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Funny. :)

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Studies show torture is not an effective way to gain information. The most effective way is to find the enemies that had second doubts about the procedure, and befriending them. They've been doing this in Iraq

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That is great for when it works, but those people with doubts are not the leaders and do not know what the leaders know. The big issue is how the people who know the big secrets should be handled. If lower ranking people can give important details because they had doubts, then befriending (or giving the impression of it) them in cases where it is possible is good.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

and it's been a much more powerful infromation gathering tool than to send people to secret prisons. Torture entranches the enemy against you. He'll talk, but he'll say anything whether it's accurate or not.

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It works pretty damn well for the mafia. Do you think waterboarding is torture (a whole different issue)? It worked on Khallid Sheik Muhammad, somebody who would have never given up a word because of the appearance of new friends.

All I have to say is you should read this.

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“The quickest way to get most (but not all) captives talking is to be nice to them. But what does it mean to be “nice” to a subject under interrogation? … It means, ideally, getting to know the subject better than he knows himself and then manipulating him by role-playing, flattering, misleading, and nudging his or her perception of the truth slightly off center. The goal is to turn the subject around so that he begins to see strong logic and even wisdom in acting against his own comrades and cause.”

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

All I have to say is you should read this.

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That is good stuff to consider. I still think most of the leaders are way too strong headed for that stuff to work on them, but kids who joined terrorists organizations because they were lost and unsure are probably often good targets for that sort of tactic.

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Originally Posted by drewmandan

Funny. :)

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Well I found it on stumbleupon.com so I can't find the exact site again but here's some help informing yourself about the vast changes being made to increase the effectiveness of alternate energy.

About the new solar cells

The energy tower, expensive but capable of powering 15 Earths

Top Five Enhancements in Solar Technology

New type of wind turbine

Video presenting something better than a wind turbine

And here are the studies Obama's using for his new energy plan:

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According to the U.S. Department of Energy, enough electric power for the entire country could be generated by covering about 9 percent of Nevada with solar power systems. This is a plot of land roughly 92 miles by 92 miles.

Also according to the D.O.E., wind could provide 5,800 quads of energy each year. That's about 15 times the current global energy demand.

According to M.I.T., there are over 100 million quads of accessible geothermal energy worldwide. The world consumes only 400 quads.

The Electric Power Research Institute has estimated that wave energy along the U.S. coastline at 2,100 Twh per year. That's half the total U.S. consumption of electricity.

According to the Set America Free Coalition (organized by the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security) if all cars on the road were hybrids, and half were PHEVs by 2025, U.S. oil imports could be reduced by 8 million barrels per day. And by the way, the D.O.E. has stated that PHEVs offer consumers the opportunity to power their vehicles for the equivalent of 90 cents per gallon!

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Sourcey Worsey

I don't care about wind power. It's just stupidly indirect solar power. The fact is, harnessing even 1% of the global winds would take a level of investment that may not even be possible in a capitalist economy. Same is true of solar power. But the difference is, solar power is about 100 times as abundant, so we don't need to harness 1%, or even 0.1% of it. And let's not forget the giant underground fission reactor that gives us geothermal, the other abundant natural energy source.

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Originally Posted by guerilla

You just stated "I don't care if I commit terrorism against terrorists"

That makes you as low as them, and you called them lower then cockroaches, what would that make you then? A cockroach..and I don't think you want to be as low as they are.

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No, it does not make me as low as them. I am talking about those who target the innocent. You called me a terrorist, and I turned it around on you to say I don't give a fuck what you call me. I don't target the innocent for irrational reasons, so call me whatever. It is irrelevant. I don't kill innocent people because of any prejudiced bull shit, but I will gladly cut the limbs off of those who do. I don't think for two seconds that people who claim to care about terrorists are morally superior. I think it's an absurd concept.

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Originally Posted by guerilla

So heres my "plan"

1. Said prisoner would be placed in a chair and have their hands and arms tied behind their backs to prevent them from attacking the interogator.

2. Previous to interogation gather all known information to the suspects friends or family, and on their terror group.

3. I would use this knowledge of his family and friends for persuasion or a false statement, lying isn't torture :)

4. I would be sure to speak arabic to verbally attack him in his own language and to use passages from his quoran citing islam means peace, NOT violence, and that allah preaches peace and that he wont goto heaven for what he has done.

5. Pushing or mild slapping I would tolerate, which is not torture.

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Holy shit. That ought to get Bin Laden and Zawihiri spilling the beans everywhere.

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Originally Posted by guerilla

I was high when I wrote it.

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Who would have ever guessed?

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Originally Posted by drewmandan

I don't care about wind power. It's just stupidly indirect solar power. The fact is, harnessing even 1% of the global winds would take a level of investment that may not even be possible in a capitalist economy. Same is true of solar power. But the difference is, solar power is about 100 times as abundant, so we don't need to harness 1%, or even 0.1% of it. And let's not forget the giant underground fission reactor that gives us geothermal, the other abundant natural energy source.

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The funny thing is, I can tell you never looked at any of my sources because everything you just said is blatantly wrong. Efficiency is going up phenomenally, costs are going down phenomenally. It would probably cost less to get this country running on alternative energy than it would to start off shore drilling plans which would barely effect our energy surplus anyway.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

The funny thing is, I can tell you never looked at any of my sources because everything you just said is blatantly wrong.

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Nope.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Efficiency is going up phenomenally, costs are going down phenomenally.

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Solar power is becoming more efficient and cheaper faster than wind.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

It would probably cost less to get this country running on alternative energy than it would to start off shore drilling plans which would barely effect our energy surplus anyway.

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I agree...? I guess you don't consider solar and geothermal 'alternative' enough? Or did you not read my post?