"All in favor of gun control, raise your right hand!"

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Originally Posted by Hercuflea

Not if the civilian populace are equally as armed as the government.

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I wonder what tanks, jets, helicopters, etc. are going for on the black market these days? :idea2:

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Originally Posted by Hercuflea

*Edit. You find the murder of over 100 million innocents amusing? You are sick.

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Heh. Yes, that is exactly what I was getting at. :clap:

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Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

I find the irony of this argument amusing. DuB, if I truly have to explain to you why those two sentences are epic phails when arguing for gun control, I will. But please think about that one and realize how erranous it is.

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It's actually not an argument for gun control at all - it's a critique of a common argument against gun control (see the difference?). Please feel free to explain how "erranous" it is.

Regarding Xaq's comment about a militia of civilians - perhaps I am just too pessimistic, but I sincerely doubt that would accomplish much of anything. If an "us vs. the government" situation ever arises, I'm putting my money on the government every time. Hopefully we never have to find out, eh?

okay okay I know I know I know

I understand why we have this right to bear arms. it was to over throw a bad government

but were not living in colonial times. our world is very different now. ITS HUGE. its like a bunch of cave men in colonial times saying they have the right to bear clubs

our modern society - or western culture - can not be overthrow its own government through a violent war and expect to re-emerge out the other end as a united nation. look how difficult its been for other nations going through war. the united states is a shit lot bigger! thats a shit lot more people to come together, if they can come together, to create a new government

only talking, communicating and understanding can create a government fit to govern a modern culture. war is known for spreading hatred, the anti-thesis of understanding.

and guess what, our government does work. it may not be perfect, but it is working well enough. we vote for both our congressmen and president. the problem with america is we aren't paying nearly enough attention to who is getting elected. there are so many elections none of us take part of. your vote is your voice. you dont vote, your voice isn't heard. and if thats not enough, go into politics.

our civilization, our MODERN civilization has already evolved past the point of no return. what I mean is, a violent war at home is not going to create any desirable change, but only tear apart the nation.

do you think MLK could have created the change he desired if he turned to guns? thats where our modern evolution has taken is. that is how real change is made.

keep your damn guns. but don't delude yourself into thinking it some how protects you from the government. and who is that that you expect to be fighting? but our own sons and daughters?

Well that is the reason people want to have assault rifles and stuff as well. Larger guns like that are very effective. Even a shotgun is can be very useful in that way. Obviously your not going to fight the army off but you are more likely to be fighting police anyway, and you don't have to fight off all of them. Just a small group that wants to take you away. Which means they bust in to grab you, you shot them and then run away.

Anyway, we can just look at places like Iraq. They makes their own bombs and take out tanks, and they shoot and kill people in the army all the time. If they could do it, why couldn't people in the US?

No one wants to fight the government. I mean seriously, our bloated trillion dollar sink pit of a military is the largest in the world. No one wants to fight it. Violence is a last resort. If Obama decide he was going to call martial law, and take over the country as a dictator however. There would be war. Our country has some serious flaws and there are fascist elements to our government.

When bush declared he was going to use illegal wiretaps, and he got away with it, that was proof of it. That was something a dictator would do. I would not say the US is a fascist government, but we have fascist streaks within our government. And you need to watch it closely. There is also the possibly we could have corrupt leader come to power. There are scandals in the government all the time with corrupt politicians. There has been voter fraud in this country.

We know all of it. We know its true. So people should be careful, they should think ahead about this kind of stuff, and they defiantly should not put faith in the government and give up their only way to prevent stuff like that from happening.

I don't plan on ever owning a gun.
Also I don't think I know anybody who does.

But.. I am against too much control of the government.
So, if people could just realize it on their own... ;)

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Originally Posted by Hercuflea

I love how nobody is actually talking about the main point of this thread:

Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao, were ALL not only for gun control, but they carried it out. And what happened? Hitler killed 20 million people, Stalin killed millions upon millions more than even Hitler, and Stalin did it to his own people! Mao Ze Dong killed 60 million of his OWN PEOPLE. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE GOVERNMENT TAKES YOUR GUNS. Politicians love disarmed peasants.

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On of the stupidest thing I ever heard.

Gun control or not, it was a world war.. gun control or not, tragedy would still happen. And no, they didn't take the peoples guns, they were never there in the first place.

The world is not like USA, don't think that even the american people could fight off an army, 95% of people always surrender.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If you think a war on guns would work well, look at the war on drugs. Thugs WILL have guns, period. Don't take away my right to shoot them when they come into my house or vehicle with the guns that they WILL have.

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Your ignorance of the major drops in gun violence in NYC, Australia, and most of Western Europe after they banned or put a stranglehold over controlling guns makes me laugh. :lol: So does your southern believe that you will be home invaded.

Brinks Home Security: $99 dollars a month + installation
Dog: Cost of food + vet


Can someone explain why any hillbilly can get a gun, but I need four types of ID to change my PA drivers license to a NY one? I know, I know, there are more deaths in automobile accidents than with gun accidents. Right wingers always forget to look at percentages of gun owners who have accidents compared to percentages of drivers who do.

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Originally Posted by ninja9578

Your ignorance of the major drops in gun violence in NYC, Australia, and most of Western Europe after they banned or put a stranglehold over controlling guns makes me laugh. :lol: So does your southern believe that you will be home invaded.

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Somehow, when I saw your name listed as the last poster, I knew that you looked at the four pages of this threed and decided to argue with just me. Thank you for your recurring flattery. ;)

With changes in gun laws come other laws, usually. Guiliani cleaned up New York by making it where criminals get the punishements they deserve. He made the justice system start working well. That is what changed everything. I don't know what happened in Western Europe or Australia, but I am sure you are overlooking important factors like you did with New York.

I don't have a "believe", but I do have a belief (What were you saying about "ignorance"? Your prejudice against Southerners does not make up for it.) that my home could be invaded because that stuff does in fact happen. Why are you so naive? My parents' house was invaded earlier this decade, and their past home was invaded in the early 70's, when I was a baby. I know others it has happened to. Why in the world do you think homes don't get invaded? Get yourself a newspaper.

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Originally Posted by ninja9578

Brinks Home Security: $99 dollars a month + installation
Dog: Cost of food + vet

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Yes, I know they are good, but they don't shoot bullets at out in a flash burglars.

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Originally Posted by ninja9578

Can someone explain why any hillbilly can get a gun, but I need four types of ID to change my PA drivers license to a NY one? I know, I know, there are more deaths in automobile accidents than with gun accidents. Right wingers always forget to look at percentages of gun owners who have accidents compared to percentages of drivers who do.

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The NRA offers classes on gun safety, as do other organizations. People should take those classes if they are going to have guns.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Despite what hollywood may show you, chances of a psychotic serial killer or rapist entering your home are extremely slim. Even in the worst neighborhoods, where people are robbed routinely, guns are not much help. You pulling a gun on someone with a gun is only going to convince them to shoot you. Anyone trained in self defense will tell you that. If someone pulls a gun on you, you either take it away from them or you run. Running being the preferred option. Pulling your own gun will only mean you both will get shot. Shooting someone does not stop them from shooting you back.

If you want to protect your family, wear your seat belt and get good health insurance. Don't worry about being struck by lightning.

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If someones got a gun, shoot to kill.

Hold on someones at the door...



It's the fireman he's here to burn all my books.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I don't have a "believe", but I do have a belief (What were you saying about "ignorance"? Your prejudice against Southerners does not make up for it.) that my home could be invaded because that stuff does in fact happen. Why are you so naive? My parents' house was invaded earlier this decade, and their past home was invaded in the early 70's, when I was a baby. I know others it has happened to. Why in the world do you think homes don't get invaded? Get yourself a newspaper.

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My house was robbed when I was younger. I was still at school, but my brother had just been getting home at the time.

My Aunt's house was also robbed, but I haven't the faintest clue of the details.

My neighbor who lives down the street got mugged about a year ago....twice.

The guy in my help thread (my mortal enemy) got a call while he was driving from some kid who saw some pot inside a car. He wanted to know if my enemy had a baseball bat so he could smash the window and take the pot.

I bore witness to a guy almost pull a weapon. It may have been a gun, but none of the witnesses could tell from the way he was poking it out from his hoodie pocket. It may not have been anything, it may have been a knife, but it was still a sticky situation.

How come none ever gets shot where I live? Every ten years or so a psycho kills a bunch of peeps but other than that my county is really peaceful... And so are our neighbouring nations.

I find it sad that you guys feel like "killing" and "blowing their brains out" is a part of your daily lives.
"What are you gonna do today?" "Oh, I'm going shopping, hang out with friends and then murder some people."

Sick. I think this behavior might spread fear and paranoia... I mean, when you see a stranger; what do you see and feel? A threat/ hostility? Or do you respect your fellow man?
I believe life is priceless, and only caring about your own is just selfish. Come on guys... the western world isn't Iraq! We should know better than "an eye for eye"!

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Originally Posted by DuB

I wonder what tanks, jets, helicopters, etc. are going for on the black market these days? :idea2:

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A lot of us know the recipes for powerful types of explosives. It wouldn't be hard to spread such knowledge. Ever heard of thermite? And what if we attain substantial numbers Stinger Missile Launcher?

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Originally Posted by DuB

It's actually not an argument for gun control at all - it's a critique of a common argument against gun control (see the difference?). Please feel free to explain how "erranous" it is.

Regarding Xaq's comment about a militia of civilians - perhaps I am just too pessimistic, but I sincerely doubt that would accomplish much of anything. If an "us vs. the government" situation ever arises, I'm putting my money on the government every time. Hopefully we never have to find out, eh?

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Oh...excuse me. 80 million people currently have guns. There are about 2-3 million members of the military currently. There are 300,000,000 American citizens. Most likely, since the American soldiers are American citizens, there would most likely be dissenters who break away from the government's control. Hopefully entire armies would break away. There is also the factor of smugglers. You do the math.

Taking guns away from us is the first step toward their dominance over us. The moment we allow our government to take our guns away, even if the government's intentions are pure, we lose the fight down the line when a tyrant really does rise. Our only hope in a "US vs Government" situation is by grouping together and resisting with the best weapons we can find.

DuB, your reasons for gun control lack imagination of the possibilities and give up all hope. It's people like you who will hold the resistance back when the time comes. Have you ever heard the phrase "Give me liberty, or give me death!"?

It probably won't happen, but if it does, you can't just sit down and give up.

black_eagle, I don't need to resort to murder to rebel

deathcell, you seem to think banning of guns is on the same level of banning of books. ignorance is how dictators control. ignorance is how you rally a people to suicide bomb themselves.

books and other forms of knowledge liberate people from ignorance. thus they are liberated from control.

guns don't liberate people from ignorance! on the contrary, it seems the stupidest people in the world are the ones who think they need a weapon to obtain liberty. but true liberty comes from knowledge.

were not in colonial times anymore! we've entered the information age. this is a whole new era of mankind were information is key. including the key to liberating ourselves from an oppressive government, not guns.

so long as we have the internet, and the internet remains a place of absolute freedom of speech, we don't have anything to worry about. so long as we have access to information, the american people will never allow the government to declare martial law

its the banning of information, or the systematic control of our free internet, you hillbillies should be worried about

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Originally Posted by juroara

black_eagle, I don't need to resort to murder to rebel

deathcell, you seem to think banning of guns is on the same level of banning of books. ignorance is how dictators control. ignorance is how you rally a people to suicide bomb themselves.

books and other forms of knowledge liberate people from ignorance. thus they are liberated from control.

guns don't liberate people from ignorance! on the contrary, it seems the stupidest people in the world are the ones who think they need a weapon to obtain liberty. but true liberty comes from knowledge.

were not in colonial times anymore! we've entered the information age. this is a whole new era of mankind were information is key. including the key to liberating ourselves from an oppressive government, not guns.

so long as we have the internet, and the internet remains a place of absolute freedom of speech, we don't have anything to worry about. so long as we have access to information, the american people will never allow the government to declare martial law

its the banning of information, or the systematic control of our free internet, you hillbillies should be worried about

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Information age or not, man is still corrupt. People would still rule over us with an iron fist if they had the chance.

The constitution was not a mistake, gun rights were put in their for reason.

The times may have changed but even if we had the information, and no guns.. What would we do, peacefully demonstrate against martial law? Against police and soldiers with guns, ready and willing to use force.

Guns don't liberate people from ignorance, but they do liberate people from oppression. (When used correctly)

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Originally Posted by juroara

black_eagle, I don't need to resort to murder to rebel

deathcell, you seem to think banning of guns is on the same level of banning of books. ignorance is how dictators control. ignorance is how you rally a people to suicide bomb themselves.

books and other forms of knowledge liberate people from ignorance. thus they are liberated from control.

guns don't liberate people from ignorance! on the contrary, it seems the stupidest people in the world are the ones who think they need a weapon to obtain liberty. but true liberty comes from knowledge.

were not in colonial times anymore! we've entered the information age. this is a whole new era of mankind were information is key. including the key to liberating ourselves from an oppressive government, not guns.

so long as we have the internet, and the internet remains a place of absolute freedom of speech, we don't have anything to worry about. so long as we have access to information, the american people will never allow the government to declare martial law

its the banning of information, or the systematic control of our free internet, you hillbillies should be worried about

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And to stop the government from burning books, we stick a gun into their faces.

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Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

My house was robbed when I was younger. I was still at school, but my brother had just been getting home at the time.

My Aunt's house was also robbed, but I haven't the faintest clue of the details.

My neighbor who lives down the street got mugged about a year ago....twice.

The guy in my help thread (my mortal enemy) got a call while he was driving from some kid who saw some pot inside a car. He wanted to know if my enemy had a baseball bat so he could smash the window and take the pot.

I bore witness to a guy almost pull a weapon. It may have been a gun, but none of the witnesses could tell from the way he was poking it out from his hoodie pocket. It may not have been anything, it may have been a knife, but it was still a sticky situation.

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That sucks big time. I know what you mean. The two home invasions my parents had were what I thought of in terms of the intruder actually being seen. My home in Baton Rouge was invaded, and I slept through it. My roommate said he didn't see anybody either, but that his dog started barking at about 9 a.m. Apparently, a video camera got stolen and the kitchen window had been opened. I think the dog barking is what got the intruder out so fast. I'm glad the dog didn't get shot and that we didn't either.

My brother has been held up at gun point twice. The night after the first incident, the guy who put the gun to his head murdered my friend's father. My sister was followed home by some freak who knocked on the door and then acted scared and left when my brother answered the door. One of my sister's friends had an attempted carjacking come his way by guys who smashed his windows out with hammers at a stoplight. My cousin was shot in a bar parking lot for talking to his ex-girlfriend, but he lived. My father's best friend's wife was shot in the hand at a stoplight. A friend of mine was robbed in her car.

It's fucked up out there. Act accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Somehow, when I saw your name listed as the last poster, I knew that you looked at the four pages of this threed and decided to argue with just me. Thank you for your recurring flattery. ;)

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That's because you and Xie are the only conservatives on the forum that I know of.

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The NRA offers classes on gun safety, as do other organizations. People should take those classes if they are going to have guns.

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Should, but don't. I'm not for taking away hunting rifles, just for controlling them. Before getting a gun, that class should be mandatory and conducted by someone other than the NRA.

FYI, almost all home invaders will not bother with houses with security systems or dogs.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Information age or not, man is still corrupt. People would still rule over us with an iron fist if they had the chance.

The constitution was not a mistake, gun rights were put in their for reason.

The times may have changed but even if we had the information, and no guns.. What would we do, peacefully demonstrate against martial law? Against police and soldiers with guns, ready and willing to use force.

Guns don't liberate people from ignorance, but they do liberate people from oppression. (When used correctly)

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and who do you imagine make up our police and soldiers?

people who worship the government?

there are plenty of soldiers in my family, and all of them seem to feel they are serving the AMERICAN people, not the government. the police, the army, they are all have access to the same liberating information that we do

what would make them turn on the american people knowingly that their own friends and families are against their actions? what would make them turn on the american people, when soldiers love America because we are a democracy? last I check, soldiers DO CARE if they have the support of americans behind him. they are fighting for us.

if there ever came a day when the government tells all officers, all soldiers to use force against any and every american, many will gladly hand over their badges or give up their guns

the only way the government can make our own police or army turn against us is to lie to them. . .to use ignorance. . . . . but get real! were not a tiny third world nation! WERE FUCKIN HUGE! there is no lie, no manipulation that could possibly fool our entire police force, or our entire army. they are americans, they value democracy, they fight FOR democracy, and they come from all walks of life from coast to coast. meaning religion isn't going to manipulate them either as we see in the middle east

Ignorance is how you control, divide and conquer.

Without ignorance, the government can't control our army and police against us.

and last I check, the american government HAS BEEN OPPRESIVE. or have you forgotten the heritage of black americans? (and possibly homosexuals still feel it is oppressive)

all of our modern rebellions in the homeland that have been successful, have been without guns. and have spread understanding where there was ignorance. . . .through even the most simplest gestures such as walking


*****************

now lets imagine the impossible

lets imagine there is a martial law

and lets imagine there is a looming threat of war between the common citizen and the government/police/army. how do you think we will win?

if we bear arms we are giving them a reason to FIRE. Human instinct kicks in. The police and army fear their death, so they attack us because we threatened their lives. It's no longer a war about freedom. Once the first gun is fired, it will just be an us vs them mentality. Fear kicks in, disorder and panic spread and we are left with a bloody chaos. And. . their guns are bigger than ours!!

In short...WE LOSE.

if we walk hand in hand as a nation down the street with not a single weapon - how malicious and evil would our own police and army have to be to murder us? To murder their own friends, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, and lovers - all unarmed?

Please, spare me. I have more respect for our armed men and women than that.

Our peaceful rebellion would speak louder than words. And we would have the support of all other modern nations that honors democracy. The American people would have spoken. The army and police would surrender to our voice, throw down their weapons/and/or arrest the government officials in charge of this mess

WE WIN, all without a gun

And our HISTORY has proven the power of a peaceful rebellion. Which is what makes us a great nation.

While the current day crises in the middle east just proves that violence breeds more violence and violence is fueled by IGNORANCE

so no thank you, I don't need a gun to rebel against an oppressive government, I only need to walk

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That's because you and Xie are the only conservatives on the forum that I know of.

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I have liberal beliefs. What on Earth are you talking about?

'Xei' btw.

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Originally Posted by ninja9578

Should, but don't. I'm not for taking away hunting rifles, just for controlling them. Before getting a gun, that class should be mandatory and conducted by someone other than the NRA.

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The NRA has just about a perfect batting average with their gun education class.



Why would thugs take it and not just get guns from the underground market?



For a moment, put aside whether or not gun control laws do work. Just tell me why a war on guns would work better than a war on drugs. I want to understand the principle.

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Originally Posted by ninja9578

FYI, almost all home invaders will not bother with houses with security systems or dogs.

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I highly recommend them, but people should have a right to have a gun for backup. The sack of shit who breaks into the house is going to have a gun, law or no law. If he wants crack or heroin bad enough, he will shoot the dog, shoot the residents, and take some stuff to sell for his drugs, for example.

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Originally Posted by ninja9578

That's because you and Xie are the only conservatives on the forum that I know of.

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I cannot be blanketly labelled a "conservative". I have a few conservative views. I am conservative when it comes to criminals (foreign ones too) and money. That's pretty much it. I sound like a Berkeley graduate on steroids when it comes to the other issues.

A ton of other people in this thread are also conservative when it comes to criminals. Have you read much of it?

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The NRA has just about a perfect batting average with their gun education class.



Why would thugs take it and not just get guns from the underground market?



For a moment, put aside whether or not gun control laws do work. Just tell me why a war on guns would work better than a war on drugs. I want to understand the principle.







I highly recommend them, but people should have a right to have a gun for backup. The sack of shit who breaks into the house is going to have a gun, law or no law. If he wants crack or heroin bad enough, he will shoot the dog, shoot the residents, and take some stuff to sell for his drugs, for example.





I cannot be blanketly labelled a "conservative". I have a few conservative views. I am conservative when it comes to criminals (foreign ones too) and money. That's pretty much it. I sound like a Berkeley graduate on steroids when it comes to the other issues.

A ton of other people in this thread are also conservative when it comes to criminals. Have you read much of it?

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Mind enhancing steroids? Anyone I know who takes steroids ends up becoming dumb as a brick, with a lot of muscle and no personality.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Mind enhancing steroids? Anyone I know who takes steroids ends up becoming dumb as a brick, with a lot of muscle and no personality.

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It is a figure of speech that means "to the extreme". I was just saying I am very, very liberal on a lot of issues.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It is a figure of speech that means "to the extreme". I was just saying I am very, very liberal on a lot of issues.

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I know, I just was being overly serious and sarcastic :)

And spreading the knowledge, I know some real idiots on steroids.

The fact is that people that are not brought up around guns simply are ignorant to them and what they do not understand they are afraid of.
Probably similar to drugs.
Although I believe many drugs people have a good reason to fear them in use of a society.
I agree with you UM with most things but your insistence and demanding other members to parallel other things that YOU feel is pertinent to the issue gets ridiculous.


I think DuB Made a good point that was misunderstood.
A well regulated militia was intended to keep the government in control. Is that realistic now? I don't think so. Homeowners vs. ---well you name it.

juroara, I think you bring up some good arguments but you are narrow-minded. But maybe that just makes me a hillbilly?

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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Alric

Well that is the reason people want to have assault rifles and stuff as well. Larger guns like that are very effective. Even a shotgun is can be very useful in that way. Obviously your not going to fight the army off but you are more likely to be fighting police anyway, and you don't have to fight off all of them. Just a small group that wants to take you away. Which means they bust in to grab you, you shot them and then run away.

Anyway, we can just look at places like Iraq. They makes their own bombs and take out tanks, and they shoot and kill people in the army all the time. If they could do it, why couldn't people in the US?

No one wants to fight the government. I mean seriously, our bloated trillion dollar sink pit of a military is the largest in the world. No one wants to fight it. Violence is a last resort. If Obama decide he was going to call martial law, and take over the country as a dictator however. There would be war. Our country has some serious flaws and there are fascist elements to our government.

When bush declared he was going to use illegal wiretaps, and he got away with it, that was proof of it. That was something a dictator would do. I would not say the US is a fascist government, but we have fascist streaks within our government. And you need to watch it closely. There is also the possibly we could have corrupt leader come to power. There are scandals in the government all the time with corrupt politicians. There has been voter fraud in this country.

We know all of it. We know its true. So people should be careful, they should think ahead about this kind of stuff, and they defiantly should not put faith in the government and give up their only way to prevent stuff like that from happening.

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There could be corrupt leaders? We have had corrupt leaders in the office of the Presidency ever since Andrew Jackson!

Not trying to argue with you, but i just had to point that out.

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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

On of the stupidest thing I ever heard.

Gun control or not, it was a world war.. gun control or not, tragedy would still happen. And no, they didn't take the peoples guns, they were never there in the first place.

The world is not like USA, don't think that even the american people could fight off an army, 95% of people always surrender.

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So i'm guessing you think that 100 million people just...magically up and died? And the fact that they had their guns taken from them had nothing to do with it.
__________________
"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."

Oh so true centuries after it was said by Thomas Paine

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Originally Posted by juroara

so long as we have the internet, and the internet remains a place of absolute freedom of speech, we don't have anything to worry about. so long as we have access to information, the american people will never allow the government to declare martial law

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I guess you've never heard of a thing called net neutrality? Something your messiah Obama(yes i assume you support him), supports? Look it up.

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Originally Posted by Howie

I agree with you UM with most things but your insistence and demanding other members to parallel other things that YOU feel is pertinent to the issue gets ridiculous.

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I think the last part of your comment is ridiculous, which is strange because you seemed to get the point at first. I haven't "demanded" that people parallel things I "feel". I have illustrated just how dangerous some places (like my city of Jackson, Mississippi) are so people can understand what goes on out there. People who live in Mayberry, Pennsylvania and Utopia, Sweden don't understand how crazy it can get, so I have been explaining it to them. Ninja pretty much said it is an ignorant redneck view that houses get broken into. :shock: Not at all true. My response was a presentation of facts, not a "demand". :?