"All in favor of gun control, raise your right hand!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I'm conservative in that I support the death penalty and think more states should do it and I'm a strong believer in Eugenics.

---

That's a good sign. You probably shouldn't mention that at the coffee shop. :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Conservatives have a much more self righteous way of thinking than progressives. What's all the talk I heard during the last election about "real Americans" in the heartland. I'm not going to look up the census numbers, but I'll bet there are more people in NYC alone than there are in the entire state of Kansas. And the next conservative who tells me what "god" wants for america is getting my foot across their brainless head.

---

I don't know about that. It's pretty close. I think you know my religious beliefs by now, so you can imagine what I think of religious conservative self-righteousness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Doctors are not supposed to be in it for the money, none of my friends who are doctors / med students are in it for the money. Doctors are supposed to help people, not get rich.

---

"Supposed to" is one thing, and reality is another. Doctors want to look like they are in it for helping others, but facades are big in the field. I haven't met your friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

That's not a good thing. Yes, the republican party has a strong hold of the top 1% and the bottom 30% of incomes. Most people think of conservatives as two groups of people. The mindless hillbilly who drives a pickup truck with a gun rack and works a blue collar job, and the heartless misor who's out for themselves and don't give a shit about anyone else *cough*Cheney*cough*

---

It's not just the top 1%. It's the upper class and a lot of the middle class. The poverty class is mostly liberal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

The socially responsible ones also give away millions of dollars to charity. Just because the Kennedys all have multi-million dollar houses doesn't mean that they don't care.

---

Giving charity makes people look good, which results in political power. A sincere believer in the wealth spread philosophy will give away all of his money except enough to live on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

That must be a southern thing. Up here, the private schools are full of kids who come from the upper middle class (250K-500K,) who tend to be very liberal. The public schools are full of people who can't afford private school (blue collar worker's kids) and carry their parents conservative beliefs.

---

Young people who know stuff usually are liberal. It is when they have had to take care of themselves for a while that they often get a different perspective. You might come from a really liberal area, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I've been all over the country. There are some nice pockets of civility in the south (I loved Austin) But in between them are endless stretches of beat up homes with trucks in drives (or in the lawn) and trailor parks.

---

There are parts of every big city in the South you would love. The same goes for every college district and most towns. The element you described does exist, but it is primarily in rural and urban blue collar areas (which I don't have a problem with).

People don't choose to be ignorant, they just can't always find the truth. The internet gives a lot of information but its not all true. And being in an information age, does not help you when the government is shoveling it full of propaganda.

What did happen to bush with the illegal wiring taping though? He was not arrest, and faced no punishment at all. Politics who get caught in crimes, normally end up resigning but never get punished criminally. They are always breaking laws in secret, and when they get caught they often get away with it. So saying they will never do it openly because they don't have the power is silly. Especially when they say stuff like they will torture people and have secret prisons in other countries, out in the open and no one care. No one does anything!

As for the police, they do not have to convince every police. The good police quit because they refuse to do it, and that just leaves the bad police in charge. And as you said, they train police for this, they train the army for this. And they don't need to turn the police on everyone, just the people who stir up trouble.

They trained the police to round up all the harmless drug users. People who smoke pot in their basement. We have the most crowded prison in the world. Its not a very big leap to arrest people for other minor things.

Of course they will never succeed in getting everyone to believe like them. They simply arrest, kill or scare the rest into submission.

Also, Eugenics is a disgusting, sick and horrible thing. At least nearly all cases where the government is involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

What did happen to bush with the illegal wiring taping though? He was not arrest, and faced no punishment at all. Politics who get caught in crimes, normally end up resigning but never get punished criminally. They are always breaking laws in secret, and when they get caught they often get away with it. So saying they will never do it openly because they don't have the power is silly. Especially when they say stuff like they will torture people and have secret prisons in other countries, out in the open and no one care. No one does anything!

---

my posts where whether or not a gun can protect you from your own government - what crime our government does to another country, is a whole different issue

you argue that governments murder their own people

I argued back its impossible for our government to murder its own people openly, that such an act would be done in secret and illegally.

You can't hold my answer as an absolute to ALL scenarios. wire taping is a completely different scenario

bush blurred the lines of what a president can and can't do. there are many today who don't think he has done anything wrong. the power elite will always take advantage of people's ignorance. See? Theres that word again. Did Bush commit a crime? Or was it for national security? America at large hasn't answered that question yet. So Bush got away.

Once information is on the net, its 'free'. Its 'out there', and its like pandoras box. You just can't put a lid on it.

The hard part is getting the information OUT. I'm not saying that's easy, people have risked their lives to release the truth. But were getting into another area here when we start talking about crimes happening behind closed doors, and people risking their lives to expose it.

I told you, my original argument was whether or not a gun can protect you against the government.

But there is another power at work OUTSIDE government control. We just know them as the Power Elite, or Illuminati. The government has to play by the rules. But the Power Elite doesn't play by any rules and they are bloody rich while our government is in debt. They are the ones you should worry about.

A gun won't protect you from the power elite either. They aren't known for using brute strength *openly* to get their way. The use misinformation, disinformation, lies and all forms of manipulation. Their manipulation is effecting the entire world. You need to expose them with truth.

"People don't choose to be ignorant, they just can't always find the truth. The internet gives a lot of information but its not all true. And being in an information age, does not help you when the government is shoveling it full of propaganda."

But people do choose to be ignorant. How many fundies would even touch another religious text to see if it rings more truth?

How many people still shop at walmart, even after being told it supports inhumane sweatshops, and is apart of the race to the bottom?

How many people visit animal rights websites when told about chickens with their beaks being cut off so they don't peck each other in cages?

How many people claim to care about the environment, and still eat red meat grown from jungles that were chopped down?

People have always turned a blind eye to information that directly challenges their world view. Even though they know the information is freely theirs to take. It only takes a little bit of time on the net for anyone concerned about the environment to discover the truth about red meat. . . but how many have wanted to know the truth?? It's easier to eat a burger when you are..ignorant

The information age doesn't mean the internet is the holy grail of truth. This idea that some book can give us the absolute truth is apart of the old ignorance from the former ages. Whether it be a religious or science book. What the internet does, is bombard us with so much contradictory information, we are forced to decide for ourselves. Even if it means challenging our world view.

the misinformation, the disinformation, the lies, the contradictory information, the truth mixed with lies, its all a very important part of the information age. if were too afraid to read something, then were too afraid to challenge our world view. Then we are choosing to remain ignorant.

The internet hands us every type of truth mankind has come up with on a silver platter, and its all very confusing. But thats the point! If you want to overcome the maya, you first have to acknowledge you've been deceived by it:meditate:

Quote:

---

Haven't I argued with you about civil rights and the war on Iraq. I know I'm liberal, so if you argued against me, that makes you conservative, at least on those issues.

---

No, you haven't... :l

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

No, you haven't... :l

---

I think I was thinking of juroara. Your avys look very similar in a chomatic way.

It doesn't matter if they do it open or in secret. That is totally irrelevant to our debate. We said guns are to protect us from our government, not to wage a war against the governments army. If the government comes into your home in the middle of the night and abducts you and take you to a secret prison, and gun will help you.

In fact, people were arguing that a gun isn't to effective against an army. But in this case, guns are extra effective against secret police. Its a lot harder to do something in secret when people are firing back at you.

Quote:

---

I think I was thinking of juroara. Your avys look very similar in a chomatic way.

---

Okay no problem.

I was rooting for Obama, etcetera. I plan to vote for the conservative party in the UK come this election but they're actually in the centre, and the current party, Labour, has been in for far too many years and has become corrupt and arrogant and have driven the country into the ground...

I have quite strong liberal beliefs for future reference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xei

Okay no problem.

I was rooting for Obama, etcetera. I plan to vote for the conservative party in the UK come this election but they're actually in the centre, and the current party, Labour, has been in for far too many years and has become corrupt and arrogant and have driven the country into the ground...

I have quite strong liberal beliefs for future reference.

---

Well, the UK doesn't have a conservative problem like the US does. The conservative party in the UK, from what I've been told, is still very progressive and oriented towards good and social responsibility. I have quiet a few friends from England and Wales.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That's a good sign. You probably shouldn't mention that at the coffee shop. :lol:

---

I wouldn't mention your beliefs on the war on drugs in your gun club then either :lol:

Quote:

---

"Supposed to" is one thing, and reality is another. Doctors want to look like they are in it for helping others, but facades are big in the field. I haven't met your friends.

---

Then those doctors are bad people.

Let's use an analogy for medicine that you will understand. You said you're a lawyer? Say someone was accused of a murder and you knew that he was innocent. He's dirt poor, so can't afford to hire you. The government will appoint him attorney, but we both know that those attorneys handle many cases and can't give him enough time to really fight for him (in the analogy, this is chip and free clinics), the circumstantial evidence is strong. Without a good lawyer, he goes to jail.

Would you give him free legal council? If you say yes, that's giving valuable resources to those who need help for free (socialized medicine,) if you say no, you're an asshole.

Quote:

---

It's not just the top 1%. It's the upper class and a lot of the middle class. The poverty class is mostly liberal.

---

You're kidding right? The black poor vote is primarily liberal (that's largely because the conservatives have been on the wrong side of civil right s every single time and still are,) but the white poverty vote is very heavily conservative. I remember looking at some of the states' income levels a while back and I think there is a gap between us that is hindering what we are saying. What's middle and upper class in Mississippi? In NY, middle class is somewhere between 50 and 250K, and upper class is between 250K and a 1M.

Everyone knows that the poorest part of the country is the bible belt, and the richest part of the country is new england and the west coast. See a pattern in voting pattern?
http://www.charlottedemocrats.com/im...ap_200811a.png

Quote:

---

Giving charity makes people look good, which results in political power. A sincere believer in the wealth spread philosophy will give away all of his money except enough to live on.

---

Not when they use their powers for good. George Bush used his power to give Haloburten a huge amount of money, and get revenge on a man who once tried to kill his father, while waging a war on science. Obama has used his power to already reinstate government money for stem cell and medical research, shut down illegal detention centres and call and end to an unjust war and push military efforts to an actual war. Using power is all right if you use it the right way.

Quote:

---

Young people who know stuff usually are liberal. It is when they have had to take care of themselves for a while that they often get a different perspective. You might come from a really liberal area, though.

---

I live in New York, yes it's a very liberal area. Why would taking care of yourself make a difference, I would think it'd go the other way. You realize how insanely expensive medicine in and that premiums go up at 10x the amount of inflation. Insurance companies don't pay for your pills, they pay for it now and increase your premium next year. You're on your own, so you want to live in a safe neighbourhood, free from guns and violence. You become interested in the news and think about the war in Iraq and instead of giving into fear, you actually think about why we're there, you see the plight of the third world on the news and want to send as much money and food as you can to help. Those are conservative ideals, they are liberal ones.

Quote:

---

There are parts of every big city in the South you would love. The same goes for every college district and most towns. The element you described does exist, but it is primarily in rural and urban blue collar areas (which I don't have a problem with).

---

I don't have a problem with them either. The world needs sewer workers and mechanics and carpenters to make civilized life possible for the rest of us. I just think that they they shouldn't have as much say in how the government handles money when it's the white collar workers like us who pay the most amount of taxes and are better educated about things. I don't care if I sound elitist, this hillbilly should not be allowed to vote or breed:
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/nm_We..._080124_ms.jpg

Who cares about liberal vs conservative? I hate that no one talks about the real issue, small government vs big government. Or totalitarianism vs anarchy. Our problem is we always look for the government to solve things for us, which promotes and pushes us towards totalitarianism.

Besides you are being stupid. If you are liberal then you supposed to be pro individual rights. And if your conservative you are supposed to be pro constitution. Both sides should be promoting the individuals right to own guns. Obviously owning gun isn't a liberal or conservative issue. Its a big government vs small government issue. Being pro gun control doesn't make you a liberal, it makes you a totalitarian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Being pro gun control doesn't make you a liberal, it makes you a totalitarian.

---

Very true.

Prohibition of anything is always a bad idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stonedape

Very true.

Prohibition of anything is always a bad idea.

---

Yes, laws suck! Woohooo! Revolution!! :roll:

I'm pro murder control... guess I'm a fascist too then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Who cares about liberal vs conservative? I hate that no one talks about the real issue, small government vs big government. Or totalitarianism vs anarchy. Our problem is we always look for the government to solve things for us, which promotes and pushes us towards totalitarianism.

Besides you are being stupid. If you are liberal then you supposed to be pro individual rights. And if your conservative you are supposed to be pro constitution. Both sides should be promoting the individuals right to own guns. Obviously owning gun isn't a liberal or conservative issue. Its a big government vs small government issue. Being pro gun control doesn't make you a liberal, it makes you a totalitarian.

---

For realz. The argument between ninja and UM about who's better is the exact reason why our founding President George Washington stated clearly that we should "Steer clear of political parties". Yes, I am aware that liberal and conservative are not technically political parties but they describe a distinct 'Red vs. Blue' mindset similar one found in Democrats and Republicans. Seriously who gives a fuck about super left or right liberals and conservatives? Both sides are right on some issues and wrong on others.

Red or Blue? The correct color is Purple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I wouldn't mention your beliefs on the war on drugs in your gun club then either :lol:

---

Yeah, that would go over like a Slayer concert at a Baptist church, but I'm not in a gun club. Even though I think gun prohibition would be a disaster in a country as violent in the United States, I don't really jive well with the gun club types. I actually click with the coffee shop crowd much better. Of course, I tend not to argue politics with them. I get all of that energy out on the internet, where my social situation doesn't matter so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Then those doctors are bad people.

---

I agree, but I think they dominate the field. As a general rule, people don't really give a shit about their customers/clients/patients. I have met very few nurses who really care that much about their patients. I have met few car salesmen who really want to find their customers what is best for their budgets. Few entertainment executives these days are looking for truly high quality art. It is all about money. Money is what makes things happen. It is screwed up, but it is how things are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Let's use an analogy for medicine that you will understand. You said you're a lawyer? Say someone was accused of a murder and you knew that he was innocent. He's dirt poor, so can't afford to hire you. The government will appoint him attorney, but we both know that those attorneys handle many cases and can't give him enough time to really fight for him (in the analogy, this is chip and free clinics), the circumstantial evidence is strong. Without a good lawyer, he goes to jail.

Would you give him free legal council? If you say yes, that's giving valuable resources to those who need help for free (socialized medicine,) if you say no, you're an asshole.

---

How in the world did we get off on that subject? I am not a medical doctor. I am just telling you how doctors think.

For whatever it is worth to this conversation, the government provides legal counsel because they are the ones attacking the defendant. If the government was going after people with diseases, it would be their responsibility to give health care to those they attack.

By the way, I don't practice law. I have a law degree, but what I learned in law school is how corrupt and political the system is, and I don't want to work that garbage. I ended up doing other things, and now I am a writer and editor for a company.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You're kidding right? The black poor vote is primarily liberal (that's largely because the conservatives have been on the wrong side of civil right s every single time and still are,) but the white poverty vote is very heavily conservative. I remember looking at some of the states' income levels a while back and I think there is a gap between us that is hindering what we are saying. What's middle and upper class in Mississippi? In NY, middle class is somewhere between 50 and 250K, and upper class is between 250K and a 1M.

Everyone knows that the poorest part of the country is the bible belt, and the richest part of the country is new england and the west coast. See a pattern in voting pattern?

---

Without the rich and middle class here, the Southern states would all be blue. The Republican power here is not as secure as you might think. Mississippi has had two Republican governors in my lifetime, and Jackson's mayors are always Democrats, which is the case in practically all of the cities in the South. Do you remember the mayor of New Orleans during Katrina? Al Gore was a Tennessee Senator and Bill Clinton was the governor of Arkansas, to name some powerful Southern politician names you recognize. Our middle and upper class elements have been necessary for the Republican power that has existed here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Not when they use their powers for good. George Bush used his power to give Haloburten a huge amount of money, and get revenge on a man who once tried to kill his father, while waging a war on science. Obama has used his power to already reinstate government money for stem cell and medical research, shut down illegal detention centres and call and end to an unjust war and push military efforts to an actual war. Using power is all right if you use it the right way.

---

I have told you about the rationale for the war, which cannot be all written off as personal revenge and money for Haliburton, and you always act like it isn't there. (This too seems tangential.)

I don't see how what you said contradicts my point. My point was that a person who has a yacht and a mansion is not thinking, "Hey, I could feed and give medicine to a lot more poor people with what I still have. They should therefore have it."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I live in New York, yes it's a very liberal area. Why would taking care of yourself make a difference, I would think it'd go the other way. You realize how insanely expensive medicine in and that premiums go up at 10x the amount of inflation. Insurance companies don't pay for your pills, they pay for it now and increase your premium next year. You're on your own, so you want to live in a safe neighbourhood, free from guns and violence. You become interested in the news and think about the war in Iraq and instead of giving into fear, you actually think about why we're there, you see the plight of the third world on the news and want to send as much money and food as you can to help. Those are conservative ideals, they are liberal ones.

---

What I am talking about is extremely common. People have kids and become much more sincerely interested in battling crime and making sure the money they earn goes to the right places and not the wrong places. It's not all about fantasy and image any more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I don't have a problem with them either. The world needs sewer workers and mechanics and carpenters to make civilized life possible for the rest of us. I just think that they they shouldn't have as much say in how the government handles money when it's the white collar workers like us who pay the most amount of taxes and are better educated about things. I don't care if I sound elitist, this hillbilly should not be allowed to vote or breed:

---

I don't want to take away that guy's right to vote or breed, but it is unfortunate that he does. Not all "hillbillies" are like that guy, and like I said, there are a lot of large social elements in the South that are not hillbilly. What you like about Austin exists to some degree in all of our cities and towns, especially around colleges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

Red or Blue? The correct color is Purple.

---

That's my color. I still take up for political parties when I think they are wrongly attacked.

Alright, i'm getting sick of this liberal vs. conservative bs.

Please, make your own thread or something, its getting completely off topic, we are not here to talk about doctors and good people vs. bad people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Without the rich and middle class here, the Southern states would all be blue. The Republican power here is not as secure as you might think. Mississippi has had two Republican governors in my lifetime, and Jackson's mayors are always Democrats, which is the case in practically all of the cities in the South. Do you remember the mayor of New Orleans during Katrina? Al Gore was a Tennessee Senator and Bill Clinton was the governor of Arkansas, to name some powerful Southern politician names you recognize. Our middle and upper class elements have been necessary for the Republican power that has existed here.

---

About a month before the last election I was vacationing in Rodanthe, NC. All of the McCain stickers that I saw were on beat up old pickup trucks and all of the Obama stickers were on brand new hybrids and BMWs.

Quote:

---

I don't see how what you said contradicts my point. My point was that a person who has a yacht and a mansion is not thinking, "Hey, I could feed and give medicine to a lot more poor people with what I still have. They should therefore have it."

---

My grandfather has a mansion and a yacht, but still gives millions away to charity.

Quote:

---

What I am talking about is extremely common. People have kids and become much more sincerely interested in battling crime and making sure the money they earn goes to the right places and not the wrong places. It's not all about fantasy and image any more.

---

No, if you're worried about your kids safety, you move to a place with no crime. ei, a place without guns. I've lives in my apartment for 6 months, I haven't locked the door once. Safety comes from the absence of guns, not the presence of them.

Quote:

---

I don't want to take away that guy's right to vote or breed, but it is unfortunate that he does. Not all "hillbillies" are like that guy, and like I said, there are a lot of large social elements in the South that are not hillbilly. What you like about Austin exists to some degree in all of our cities and towns, especially around colleges.

---

Let me finish up what you're saying ...especially around colleges [because that area is better educated.]

Anyways, the constitution says Americans get to carry guns. This is going to sound typical, but if you don't like it, then get out. America doesn't follow its constitution enough as it is, don't go pushing it away from what it should be any further.

In my opinion, anybody who favors ridiculous gun control (certain types of gun control are good) and/or banning doesn't deserve (but still gets them regardless because they're Americans) a claim to their constitutional rights because well...they'd give them away.

http://www.kdmdr.demon.co.uk/stalin.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

About a month before the last election I was vacationing in Rodanthe, NC. All of the McCain stickers that I saw were on beat up old pickup trucks and all of the Obama stickers were on brand new hybrids and BMWs.

---

Around here, the McCain stickers I have seen have been on fancy SUV's, BMW's, Mercedes, etc., as well as a few old, beat up pickup trucks. The Obama stickers are usually on cars from the 1970's and such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

My grandfather has a mansion and a yacht, but still gives millions away to charity.

---

Then he is just a charity giver, not a true socialist. He is not helping anywhere near as many people as he easily could. I understand, and I don't hold it against him, but he obviously understands the value of personal ownership that is worlds beyond necessity. That means he gives credence to capitalism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

No, if you're worried about your kids safety, you move to a place with no crime. ei, a place without guns. I've lives in my apartment for 6 months, I haven't locked the door once. Safety comes from the absence of guns, not the presence of them.

---

If you can't do that so easily, you get a gun. When you can do that, you still understand why people in dangerous places should be allowed to have guns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Let me finish up what you're saying ...especially around colleges [because that area is better educated.]

---

I wasn't talking about political affiliation, but while we are on the topic, the strict leftist mentality prevalent in college districts results from the fact that so many of the people are kids going through phases. That element attracts other strict leftists.

Pretty funny.

EDIT: Dammit, I recommended that you watch the third video in my sig, but I just saw that it has been removed. It was some meat head lifting weights and yelling in the name of God, the USA, and the NRA. I thought it was one of the funniest videos on Youtube.

I'm liberally conservative... Or Conservatively Liberal.

Terms are so stupid, they love to separate us.

All I know is, I value the Constitution. Want everyone to have a fair shake.. And drugs to be made legal, and homosexuals should be allowed to do as they please.

And no ones taking my right to have a gun away.

The Constitution prevails.