What is child abuse?

I want to keep this out of R/s because it's simply not what I'm looking for. All I want is information.

One thing which has been brought up by a few (Richard Dawkins is famous for this), is the branding of religious indoctrination as child abuse.

I don't think that 'religious indoctrination' in of itself can be branded as such, seeing as it is more or less unavoidable. However, the fear of hell as a tool of dicipline should certainly be classed so.

I am hopeless at finding this stuff on the internet. I can't find out what defines child abuse in the legal system and how it differs from country to country. The UK in particular, because that's where I live.

I want to ask people, where is the LEGAL point at which the line is crossed, if there is a line at all. Is the use of hell a crime if caught, or is it possible that it could be one?

Surely if a survey was done which provided evidence that hell use was more of a threat to a child's mental health than child molestation for example then there would be no choice but to brand it as illegal.

There is a debating society at my school which I hope to bring this up in, but for now it's summer and there's really nowhere else to get my information from. I don't know... does anyone know anything in particular or have any links to some sites?

Thanks.

I agree with the classification. Makes striking sense. I'm afraid I don't have any stuff on the topic either. In any case, do update us if you find anything.

I think you might want to look into the prohibition of slapping a child for educational purposes. Some countries condemn it vehemently, while in others slapping is common sense. The going-to-hell thing comes down to threatening a child, I think, which can do real bad to a child's psyche. Threatening has been known to drive mature humans nuts.

It makes sense if parents carry the threats too far. It could very easily be emotionally damaging. (For example: a kid doesn't clean their room or tells a lie and the parent gives vivid details about what's suppose to happen to people who go to hell and then tell the kid that's where they'll go if they don't obey.)

My dad used to threaten to call Social Services on my brother at every turn. He told him if he couldn't listen then he'll have him thrown into Foster Care and let the State worry about him. My brother was a teen by that time but I still thought such threats were abusive.

But to just teach a kid about hell as part of the family's religious beliefs, I don't think that's abusive. Just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean other people can't.
It's all about how a parent uses those beliefs.

I think that stripping a person of the ability for rational thought by telling them what they believe from a time when they are too young to question is is child abuse regardelss of if hell is brought into it or not.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

But to just teach a kid about hell as part of the family's religious beliefs, I don't think that's abusive.

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Yes. Problem is, that never happens. I don't know about you, but I had christian education, and both my family and teachers threatened me with hell. In western society, religion is very separated from culture. Teaching children a religion is against freedom of religion.

furthermore, the very supposed existence of hell is an implicit threat.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

My dad used to threaten to call Social Services on my brother at every turn. He told him if he couldn't listen then he'll have him thrown into Foster Care and let the State worry about him. My brother was a teen by that time but I still thought such threats were abusive.

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My mom used to do that once in a while, but I know she wasn't 100% serious. When my mom gets angry, which happens a lot, she says funny stuff. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

My dad used to threaten to call Social Services on my brother at every turn. He told him if he couldn't listen then he'll have him thrown into Foster Care and let the State worry about him. My brother was a teen by that time but I still thought such threats were abusive.

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My brother and I used to fire it right back at my parents with, "we'll call child protective services on you!" I put the number on speed dial.

lol Odd!
Unfortunately, my dad was serious. Both of my parents were abusive, but not maliciously so. They were just ignorant and overwhelmed and simply behaving as their parents had. I hated them when I was a kid, but as I grew up I understand them better (not that I will ever agree with their methods). My dad was heavy-handed with my brother (no broken bones or black eyes or anything) and my mom was emotionally abusive toward me to make up for her little boy being so mistreated by the father who never "saw" that I could do any wrong. :roll:

I was never exposed to threats of hell, so the concept is a bit alien to me. Even when I was in mainstream Christianity, I had a hard time believing in hell. By the time I became one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I didn't believe in it at all and my kids have never been directly exposed to the teaching either.
But I can imagine that some people take the belief in it way too far.

But to say a parent can't tell their kids what to believe in... well, then there might as well not be a school system and there might as well not even be any parents.
I tell my kids that in the eyes of God, *I* am responsible for their spiritual education. If I fail, then God will hold me accountable. Just like if I failed to send them to school (or properly homeschool them) then the State would hold me accountable for failing to do so.
When they move out on their own though, they get to chose what to do with the education they received both spiritually and secularly. Until then, though, it's my responsibility to at least establish the foundation.

My kids can believe whatever they want, but until they become adults, they still have to listen to me. They have to go to school. They have to go to "church".
They don't agree with me all the time, but using that example they at least understand where I'm coming from.

Personally, I think it is a little unfair for parents to make their children go to church, synagogue or whatever else. Children should be allowed to research and learn on their own about religion and create their own beliefs or if they choose to, they should be allowed to not partake in any religion.

Kids should seek religion out on their own if they choose to, not be forced to go. When they are forced, they often have negative feelings about religion. Religion should be a choice, for adults and kids alike.

I think you are going to have a very hard time proving any of that in court. You would actually have to prove they are being harmed, and in most cases there really isn't any harm or signs of harm from religious stuff. You would really have to scare someone.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=74694

With respect to Idolfan :), it certainly doesn't look impossible to demonstrate a fair degree of psychological harm being caused, at least in this particular case. All we need is a good deal more (documented!) examples to prove the general case...

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

It makes sense if parents carry the threats too far. It could very easily be emotionally damaging. (For example: a kid doesn't clean their room or tells a lie and the parent gives vivid details about what's suppose to happen to people who go to hell and then tell the kid that's where they'll go if they don't obey.)

My dad used to threaten to call Social Services on my brother at every turn. He told him if he couldn't listen then he'll have him thrown into Foster Care and let the State worry about him. My brother was a teen by that time but I still thought such threats were abusive.

But to just teach a kid about hell as part of the family's religious beliefs, I don't think that's abusive. Just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean other people can't.
It's all about how a parent uses those beliefs.

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Anyone who believes in hell and actually has a kid deserves to be spat at.

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Originally Posted by Alric

I think you are going to have a very hard time proving any of that in court. You would actually have to prove they are being harmed, and in most cases there really isn't any harm or signs of harm from religious stuff. You would really have to scare someone.

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THIS is what I need to do.

It hurts my mind figuring out how.

There MUST BE STATISTICS.

Eh, I suppose it's anything that causes the child to feel bad, or doing anything with bad intentions... Ofcourse, punishment is there, otherwise it'd turn into pure chaos :X

Child abuse is abuse on a child. Like punishment for no reason.
I suppose you could call never punishing and just give them everything they point at is abuse aswell in the long run :X

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is not considered child abuse and that no one has ever been arrested for it.

I check looking a bit to see what I can find. Child abuse can be physical, which is pretty obvious. Harming them and stuff. Medical, which is not giving them care, not taking them to the doctors when their sick and stuff. Educational, not enrolling them in school, and basically ignoring their education. Things like sexual abuse, or allowing them to do drugs and stuff.

The closest thing you will find is parents neglecting psychological care. Psychological child abuse would be anything that might cause the child to act strange or weird or harm the psychologically. If your parents locked you in the closet as punishment that would fall under this.

I still think you would be hard pressed to get someone in trouble for talking about hell. I would try looking up more information on psychological child abuse to see what you can find out though.

If your parents made you write, 'If I am bad I am going to hell' a thousand times as punishment, I am sure that would count. You really need to catch them doing something really strange though. And talking about hell isn't strange in itself.

I did check a little, and if you were to report psychological child abuse, they would send a Psychologists to speak with the child. That would probably be your best chance to prove the case, or atleast find some proof of something strange going on.

Child abuse is listening to Al Gore talk about the Earth having a fever. Also, forcing them to fear the destruction of the planet by man so they can be "Green" :lol:
Seriously though, psychological abuse is still there, often times as bad as physical abuse.

Mormons don't have this problem, for they don't believe in a hell. Good for them. :D

In fact, I'd say that the only dose of emotional abuse Mormons get is in the form of peer disapproval. That's the only thing really keeping them in line.

"If you watch porn, we'll all be very disappointed in you." :roll:

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Originally Posted by Lëzen

Mormons don't have this problem, for they don't believe in a hell. Good for them. :D

In fact, I'd say that the only dose of emotional abuse Mormons get is in the form of peer disapproval. That's the only thing really keeping them in line.

"If you watch porn, we'll all be very disappointed in you." :roll:

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I think peer pressure is actually worse than a spiritual one, lulz. In peer pressure, you get the consequences directly and factually. In spiritual pressure, all they can do is threaten, since you will only (supposedly) meet your consequences after you die.

Eh, that's not exactly true/
I don't know how far the Mormons take "excommunication" but Jehovah's Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible. It's not so much as peer pressure per se but if you screw up royally and show no signs of repentance (or repeatedly make the same enormous mistakes) they excommunicate their baptized members and it's brutal. I am there now.
You cannot talk to ANYONE in the congregation on a social level except for the Elders (who take the lead in guiding the congregation).

So spiritually "peer pressure" is the worst kind if you truly love your religion and don't want to leave it.

How many people have seen or read "Clan of the Cave Bear"? Jehovah Witness disfellowshipping (excommunication) reminds me of Ayla's "death" at the end. No one would look at her or acknowledge her existence (except in a round about way when she bested the new Leader). Of course, the Clan took it to an extreme where not even the Elders would acknowledge her and there were some "deaths" that could never be undone and the banishment was forever.

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

Anyone who believes in hell and actually has a kid deserves to be spat at.

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http://z.hubpages.com/u/774635_f520.jpg

Woah there buddy.

That was uncalled for.

It is one reasonable interpretation of the situation though. If you believe in hell and believe that most people are going to go there, then why would you have a child knowing full well that in doing so, you are probably condemning them to hell? It seems very cruel and extremely selfish. Saying that they deserve to be spat at might be a little extreme but they arguably deserve scorn of some form.

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Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=74694

With respect to Idolfan :), it certainly doesn't look impossible to demonstrate a fair degree of psychological harm being caused, at least in this particular case. All we need is a good deal more (documented!) examples to prove the general case...

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Cool as. Now a hundred or so more examples from children half my age and we'll be getting somewhere!

Ps. That was not sarcy, I mean it. Or, I'll at least bring it up during debating society at my school.

Im glad i didnt grow up with all that absurd religion stuff...I think it takes the same effort to make a child understand he is not supposed to do something because its wrong and threatening him with going to hell.

why stop at religion?

why not santa claus?

or the easter bunny?

or the toothfairy?

or hell, maybe it should be a crime to allow children to a have imaginations.

im not convinced that teaching a child any one faith or even fairy tale is child abuse. as atheists are living proof you can freely walk away from it if you so please. its also silly to expect young children to explore their own religion or faith at such a early age. young children look to adults to tell them about the world. its not only until they reach a certain age do they begin to seek their OWN answers about life

its evolution that children look to their parents to teach them

and parents have every right to tell them what they believe to be true regadless of what you believe truth is

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Originally Posted by juroara

why stop at religion?

why not santa claus?

or the easter bunny?

or the toothfairy?

or hell, maybe it should be a crime to allow children to a have imaginations.

im not convinced that teaching a child any one faith or even fairy tale is child abuse. as atheists are living proof you can freely walk away from it if you so please. its also silly to expect young children to explore their own religion or faith at such a early age. young children look to adults to tell them about the world. its not only until they reach a certain age do they begin to seek their OWN answers about life

its evolution that children look to their parents to teach them

and parents have every right to tell them what they believe to be true regadless of what you believe truth is

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Getting coal for Christmas is a lot less harsh than being sent to a fiery pit to suffer eternal damnation, no?

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Originally Posted by juroara

and parents have every right to tell them what they believe to be true regadless of what you believe truth is

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I dunno.

I hope Catholic and Muslim children start hanging themselves in their rooms and self-harming over the paranoia. If they did I'd be like YES! GET IN THERE!

I still beg to concur.

If I am allowed to tell a child that there is a place of eternal fire, then why can't I show them my willy? Which do you think is going to be more disturbing to them? You said yourself that children will take adults seriously so telling a child that you believe in hell is almost telling him/her that there is one full stop.

I sometimes have fantasies about rescuing children who are abused by the doctrine of hell.

Juorara, we usually lock people up who think that their imaginations ARE REAL. Santa Clause is usually not a problem, because most people do NOT believe he is a real person who flies around the earth in 36 hours to deliver presents to every child. If they did, then that would be completely different.

Im always curious how child is defined by the legal system in different countries

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Originally Posted by kingofclutch

Personally, I think it is a little unfair for parents to make their children go to church, synagogue or whatever else. Children should be allowed to research and learn on their own about religion and create their own beliefs or if they choose to, they should be allowed to not partake in any religion.

Kids should seek religion out on their own if they choose to, not be forced to go. When they are forced, they often have negative feelings about religion. Religion should be a choice, for adults and kids alike.

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THANK YOU, i strongly agree

If you truly believe what the books say about hell, then of course you are going to try and save people from it, especially the ones you love.

Is it wrong to try and save people from what you believe is an infinite suffering to them if you don't? No wonder there's so many preachers, who wants others to be tortured forever, and selfishly, for their not acting in that 'knowledge' to be tortured themselves?

Fear is so destructive. Forget child abuse, this is abuse of the opportunity that is life itself.