Strong statement

So i'm studying for my filosophy exam. and i come across this thing that's making me think wow, nice.

I'm not going to explain Hegel's complete theory, that would take an hour. but i wanna come down to this part:

BTW:
See "reason" as system, ratio, logic, i can't find the proper english word.
"The Spirit" as a form of common (self)awareness of the universe.

Naturefilosophers (2500 years ago, ancient greece) discovered that our "reason" (as in Latin : ratio) is the same as the reason of nature, in other words, the reason we humans use, is the same reason that occurs and exists in nature.

Hegel goes and says, there is a common "Spirit/Ghost".
The moment the naturefilosophers made their discovery that our reason is the same as the one found in nature, is the moment this common "spirit/ghost" found existence.

He says : Nature became self-aware at that moment, when naturefilosophers discovered what they discovered. Thus nature became self-aware because something in it and brought forth by it became aware that it's reason was the same that occured in her.


Nice eh ? but ... is it acceptable that this universe/world is one big "thinking" something ? i find it a little harsh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

filosophy

---

I refuse to believe you are studying it at anything above playschool.

Unless English isn't your first language in which case, I apologise.



Also, I think you've someeewhat misrepresented what Hegel says there. You said you didn't want to go into exactly what he said because it would take an hour, but if you are starting a discussion thread in which you want to have an informed discussion, I'd highly recommend actually writing the full idea, rather than a summary which can very easily be misinterpreted, and in itself is a slight misrepresentation of what he originally says.

I personally think Hegel is off the mark here, however it's one of the most fascinating and imaginative accounts of human development I've read. Human history is "spirit" manifesting. It's pretty high tier in terms of interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Unless English isn't your first language in which case, I apologise.

---

apologise then :D

Well, look Hegels chapter is like 25 pages...
If i didn't explain myself good enough then never mind.
I'm sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

apologise then :D

Well, look Hegels chapter is like 25 pages...
If i didn't explain myself good enough then never mind.
I'm sorry.

---

You've made me feel bad. ;_;

I just meant that you don't want people to maybe get the wrong idea of what he's saying if you skim over it too much.
I'm being a nazi now.

I 'm sorrryyy.

For future record it's spelt "philosophy" with a "ph".

I can see how that could be confusing though.

Ay no problemo, all good right ? :)

And actually, regarding the topic I posted there, it doesn't say much more.
As for the playschool part I study at the 3rd best known University for law-education in Europe, actually i'm studying exactly where and what Europe's president studied, lol :D

And thanks now I know how to spell philosophy :D:D:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

Ay no problemo, all good right ? :)

And actually, regarding the topic I posted there, it doesn't say much more.
As for the playschool part I study at the 3rd best known University for law-education in Europe, actually i'm studying exactly where and what Europe's president studied, lol :D

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

>Europe's President

---

God bless Herman Van Rompuy. ;_;

I don't doubt your knowledge whatsoever, I was just a little thrown off by the slightly odd english.





Ok, so what do you think of Hegel's points?

Individual human consciousness serve as a wider self-realisation of the consciousness of God. What do you mean when you say you find it harsh?

You watch the language too much for a dreamer ! :P
Harsh, too self-confident, i can't see where he proves his point, there's no real foundation to this, and his statement scares me because it's very limiting, then again, philosophy comes further and further and only seems to be more limiting.

What Hegel says is nice, but he has no real foundations, where did he get his "Spirit" ? Nowhere, he just came up with that. Reading trough my book i'm coming to find that a lot of these guys just come up with some things, not founded. The book is a great one and it explains every step of the philosopher's theory (well, not every but you know...) But it's a see-trough: many philosophers just take something for correct just like that *snap*.

And the wider self-realisation thing is scaring also. it's limiting, if you know what I mean ?

Oh and btw the Spirit is described as "the process of the return of the rational , from alienation, to it's self."

He says nature shows "the rational". But the rational get's alienated from it's self because nature can't say to it's self : hey i'm rational.
That's where the Spirit comes in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

You watch the language too much for a dreamer ! :P

---

Man, read wittgenstein and Austin. Language is totally where it's at. :3

In fact I wouldn't hesitate to say that alot of the problems Hegel finds and talks about root directly from his misuse of language.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

Harsh, too self-confident, i can't see where he proves his point, there's no real foundation to this, and his statement scares me because it's very limiting, then again, philosophy comes further and further and only seems to be more limiting.

What Hegel says is nice, but he has no real foundations, where did he get his "Spirit" ? Nowhere, he just came up with that. Reading trough my book i'm coming to find that a lot of these guys just come up with some things, not founded. The book is a great one and it explains every step of the philosopher's theory (well, not every but you know...) But it's a see-trough: many philosophers just take something for correct just like that *snap*.

---

You're certainly right about Hegel. But I find he's very far removed from most modern analytic philosophy, which is a shitton more scientific. You're a philosopher yourself, so where you can see people have just pulled something out of thin air, take it as an opportunity to shoot them down. heh.

Philosophy has become a lot more limiting as time's gone by, but in a good way in my opinion. Because now it is very analytic. Very contentious. And if you put forward something without any real foundation, which was the problem you found in Hegel, then you'll just get laughed off the field. So in a way I think it's good that it's becoming more limiting.



We should not just disregard Hegel, for while some of his more out there ideas are flawed he was a very intelligent man, and there is alot of truth in the more fundamental aspects of what he says.

Rather than focusing on the talk of spirit etc I find it significantly more interesting to take what he says about the development and understanding of logic and reason, which truly is alot more profound than alot of the baseless god talk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

And the wider self-realisation thing is scaring also. it's limiting, if you know what I mean ?

---

Just about, and yeah I agree, it is quite unusual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Just about, and yeah I agree, it is quite unusual.

---

because if we're part of a greater consciousness, where does that leave me standing? By the way now that we're at it.

You think it's possible to live in "dreamworld" ? Not to be destructive or anything, but i'd trade my life in an instant for that one. I'm asking you this because you seem intelligent and surely you can teach me a few things.

Or is dreamworld really just fucking chemistry ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

You think it's possible to live in "dreamworld" ? Not to be destructive or anything, but i'd trade my life in an instant for that one. I'm asking you this because you seem intelligent and surely you can teach me a few things.

Or is dreamworld really just fucking chemistry ?

---

You have to define a bit further exactly what you mean by a dreamworld.

Do you mean like living in a lucid dream?

Yes, as in, is there an other side ? Or is our "reality" it ?
Seriously if this is it, that's depressing.
I just realised how minimalistic I sound, forgive me i'm not in the mood to type a lot
:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

filosophy

---

I'd be interested to know Hegel's thoughts on the wisdom of flaky pastry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

Yes, as in, is there an other side ? Or is our "reality" it ?
Seriously if this is it, that's depressing.
I just realised how minimalistic I sound, forgive me i'm not in the mood to type a lot
:D

---

Reality is what is the case.

I do not think there is "an other side". I think it's a faulty concept.

However I do not at all think that's depressing.


I mean come on, just look at the world, it's absolutely amazing. Think about all the conceptions in your mind of a dreamworld. All the fantasies on which you no doubt have been inspired to imagine another world. All these things are a part of this world, and any imagining we have, is inspired by this world. This is the real thing.

There are billions and billions of stars and planets, and untold amounts of life, beauty, creation, all these things, across the vastness of space. People say space or the universe is empty, but the reality is the exact opposite. We live in a sea of surprise and wonder, none of which we have seen. That is potential

and offers more wonder, awe, love, beauty than any "other world" we can think of.

Scaling back even just to our planet, imagine all the billions of people. All the human beings who all have their own wonderful stories and each has right this second you read this a million desires, loves, hatreds, fears, dreams. Right now and every second.

AND not even just humanity! Go out into the countryside imagine the variation across the world, from glowing white snowscapes inhabited by giant beasts to dense and mysterious jungles and ancient places. A million new experiences in every turn you make here on this planet.

"This world" is far from depressing man. Seriously.

I know that this website is literally a magnet for people who want to escape, and thus for people disenchanted by the world, but seriously, people need reminding that everything wonderful and fantastical you can imagine, every landscape, world, situation, relationship, journey, adventure it is all the product and inspired by the world in which we live, which is so undefinably complex that it's beyond our comprehension.

Not just space, people, nature, think small. Things go down and down and smaller and smaller and become more and more alien. There are whole other worlds, whole other landscapes on the end of a pin.

Come on bro.

The world fucking rocks.

awww shit, that's power of speech right there ;)

^^^Taosaur : Hehe I have Greek ancestry and you just made my day

^^Carousoul: I love you (well, you're eloquence with words, and your effectiveness in using that eloquence and converting it into the powerful remote induction of moving sensory images, rather)

eh ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LostKiddo

eh ?

---

He's being silly. He mean's "saying pretty things".

still don't get it but. all good :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Reality is what is the case.

I do not think there is "an other side". I think it's a faulty concept.

However I do not at all think that's depressing.


I mean come on, just look at the world, it's absolutely amazing. Think about all the conceptions in your mind of a dreamworld. All the fantasies on which you no doubt have been inspired to imagine another world. All these things are a part of this world, and any imagining we have, is inspired by this world. This is the real thing.

There are billions and billions of stars and planets, and untold amounts of life, beauty, creation, all these things, across the vastness of space. People say space or the universe is empty, but the reality is the exact opposite. We live in a sea of surprise and wonder, none of which we have seen. That is potential

and offers more wonder, awe, love, beauty than any "other world" we can think of.

Scaling back even just to our planet, imagine all the billions of people. All the human beings who all have their own wonderful stories and each has right this second you read this a million desires, loves, hatreds, fears, dreams. Right now and every second.

AND not even just humanity! Go out into the countryside imagine the variation across the world, from glowing white snowscapes inhabited by giant beasts to dense and mysterious jungles and ancient places. A million new experiences in every turn you make here on this planet.

"This world" is far from depressing man. Seriously.

I know that this website is literally a magnet for people who want to escape, and thus for people disenchanted by the world, but seriously, people need reminding that everything wonderful and fantastical you can imagine, every landscape, world, situation, relationship, journey, adventure it is all the product and inspired by the world in which we live, which is so undefinably complex that it's beyond our comprehension.

Not just space, people, nature, think small. Things go down and down and smaller and smaller and become more and more alien. There are whole other worlds, whole other landscapes on the end of a pin.

Come on bro.

The world fucking rocks.

---

Haha nice post dude.

I used to think there's an "other side", behind these forms we perceive. But whether there is or isn't is impossible for me to really know. Thinking about it and forming linguistic concepts, while they can seem overwhelmingly real, is just an abstraction. The only certainty is the reality I'm experiencing now.

I'm starting to see more and more however that the way we look at things is reflected back to us by reality. Which comes down in large part to belief. If I go to a party believing that I've got nothing interesting to say, that I'm not physically attractive, etc, then reality proves it to me. On the contrary if I go believing I'm a genuinely interesting and loved person, that gets proved as well. I'm seeing evidence of this more and more every day.

All that belief is apparently based on language too. I'm starting to see all the fuss behind Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), something that always been a gray area for me before now. Also, I was wondering what you think of E-Prime? Because that's also starting to make a lot of sense in theory as well, but I'm not sure what exactly would happen if I tried to apply it.

Though with all this in mind it seems there's two options. On the one hand I can use belief and the power of language to my advantage, NLP style. On the other I can try to go the more esoteric and spiritual route of removing belief and subduing the linguistic mind, Buddha style. Both of these seem appealing in their own way.