DC sentience?

Are the DC's only a mechanism of the dreaming mind, or do you think they have a life force if however subtle. When I began lucid's they often made little sense, but now they are conversing with me about my waking memories with increasing ability. I have succesfully practiced occlumency to hide thoughts I don't want them to see incase they are actually wandering spirits on the astral plane just disguising themselves as DC's. But the whole ordeal has made me curious wether I'm inducing real consciousness when they start listening to me? I've considered wether or not is simply a function of the sleeping mind to interact with itself as if it were seperate beings, I just want some outside opinion.

I've asked myself the same question. There seem to be two opposing ideas:

1. Everything in the dream is me (seems plausible, since if I change my thoughts, the dream changes)
2. The dream seems so vivid or real, that it couldn't possibly be me.

I've had dreams which really felt like I was being guided by other beings. And at the same time I've experienced the power of my own expectations and beliefs in how the dream story goes. So, is everything me, or not? I don't know. What is me, anyway?

I do think it's possible for beings to interact with you in certain dreams, but I don't think it's necessary for you to have an intelligent discussion with any DC. If you look at a DC as a manifestation of your subconscious, even just your personal subconscious is HUGE! It knows all you know, and more. So it would know everything about your daily life, wouldn't it. But that all depends on what your take on the psyche is.

The idea that a dream is "so real" is based on flawed logic, in my opinion.
That which we experience in waking life is an interpretation, built by our brains, of the outside world around us. We "see trees, and colors, and breasts". We "hear the birds and the wind". We EXPERIENCE this vivid, and very real looking reality. But this isn't REALLY what we are doing, is it? In actuality, we collect light rays that have a particular wave pattern. We interpret the vibrations that our eardrums experience. The pretty trees, and pretty birds, and pretty colors, and pretty breasts, and the pretty wind is all created by our brain, as an interpretation of that which is around us.
So, is it that far fetched to see how a dream could be 100% as realistic as the real world? A dream world is made up the same way as that which we experience everyday in waking life, using the same parts of the brain, as far as imaging and whatnot goes.

"Life" is also not as cut and dry as people interpret it as, in my opinion. I don't have time to get fully into it, but I do believe that they are a form of partial sentience.

Row row row your boat, gently down the stream. Merrily merrily merrily merrily, life is but a dream.

Every once and a while, I will run into a dream character who surprises me. They seem to have deep and complex personalities that are different from my own. I can communicate with them, and it feels like I am communicating with something separate from myself. Maybe they give me information that I never knew I knew. From my point of view (the only point of view, in this case!), they are definitely sentient. I don't think they need to be from a physically separate place, to be sentient. I think they can briefly exist as separate parts of myself. They are just as real as my main "self." We just happen to share the same body or the same mind, or same dreams, or whatever.

My theory is that DCs are either all controlled by your subconscious or it could simply be a very sophisticated AI. I intend to figure this out in my dreams.

psilocibin, did someone else have psilocybin or is that just a typo? I considered using psilocyborg first before this.

Back to topic You gave me an idea that a auxillary sentience, anything from alien conspiracy to ghosts, (dreamwalkers, lost souls, etheric consciousness ect.) is capable of astrally projecting holographic thoughtforms that can interact with my own. Then there is the possibility that my mind is capable of self communication in the same way all the cells that make up the body do not directly have acess to the control center but still are able to send signals, (the same method as the previous only more direct). thusly they (constucts of the subconscious that have a individual but not necessarily seperate self) can try finding a way to have a part in my mental evolution.

I have yet to achieve a decent level of lucidity, but I have had interactions with various DCs. While experiences may vary depending on person to person, I think that the DCs personality (not all of them) are much different to my own waking personality. Maybe it's that i'm too ignorant to realise my personality, or that the DCs personality is different to mine; but I honestly think it is some form of higher intelligence. No not aliens or anything like that, just a sort of intelligence, hidden deep within our subconscious; just out of reach of the capabilities of lucid dreaming. Perhaps astral projection can unlock this intelligence? Fantastic thread, makes a very good read.

are your dreams not built from memory as well? for example... someone who is born color blind will never dream in color, because they've never experienced it.

couldn't the same principle be applied to DC's? if you've seen someone with that kind of personality before, even if you don't remember, then that type of personality could appear in one of your DC's. I for one have dreams, lucid and non lucid, about my friends from school, and they sure as hell act like themselves in my dreams. They don't "inherit" my personality.

The human brain is a complex organ... we still don't know a lot about it. I really don't believe in evil spirits or astral whatever being able to penetrate your mind and disguise themselves as a DC. Think of it this way... if you never knew about astral projections or evil spirits and whatnot, would you even consider them an option to your complex DC's and their personality? No, because your mind has never been exposed to the topic. I guess you can call that ignorance, but that's just the way I see it. People think that seeing their deceased grandparents in their lucid dreams means that their spirits have made their way into your dreams. I think it's just because you have memories of them and their personality.

On the other hand, if you've never seen your deceased grandparents (perhaps great great grandparents) and don't know what they look like or how they act, and you encounter some old looking DC in your lucid dream, and you write about their appearance/personality when you wake up, and then you go to your parents/grandparents to ask for a picture of them and they look EXACTLY how you described............. that's some creepy stuff. :P

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Originally Posted by I U

psilocibin, did someone else have psilocybin or is that just a typo? I considered using psilocyborg first before this.

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It's a play on words, I'm a psychologist.

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Back to topic You gave me an idea that a auxillary sentience, anything from alien conspiracy to ghosts, (dreamwalkers, lost souls, etheric consciousness ect.) is capable of astrally projecting holographic thoughtforms that can interact with my own. Then there is the possibility that my mind is capable of self communication in the same way all the cells that make up the body do not directly have acess to the control center but still are able to send signals, (the same method as the previous only more direct). thusly they (constucts of the subconscious that have a individual but not necessarily seperate self) can try finding a way to have a part in my mental evolution.

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When you talk of "constructs of the subconscious that have an individual but not seperate self", I immediately think of Jung's archetypes. (quick google: Jung's Archetypes)

Interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on this. I think Robot Butler's thoughts are one of the better. :)

I noticed some similarities between imaginary friends and dream guides, both self sentient (in evolved cases), existing within the mind (unless they're let out), and able to confer with the host. Perhaps dream guides and imaginary friends are dc's becoming increasingly aware. Please; share your experiences with both so we can have an information base to work from.

My problem with someone assigning special importance to a DC is that we know that during a dream your reasoning is not working 100%. For example, let's say in the course of my dreams I meet two dream characters. One tells me my mother is going to poison me. The other tells me my flight to LA the next day will crash. Why would I wake up and cancel my flight, but not start worrying about my mother's ill-intent?

I have a dreamplot where I have to run around hitting people with a magic wand or they turn into chickens. I have a dreamplot where a glowing figure says it will teach me the secrets of the universe. I have a dreamplot where giant machines are breaking apart the earth. Why would I view one as accurate and disregard the others? Maybe I "felt" that the glowing figure seemed more "real" thant the chicken-people, but I know I can't trust that sensation. Because in another dream my brother morphing into a fish didn't set off any alarm-bells in my head. So I can safely say that my ability to differentiate truth from fiction is impaired while I dream.

Experiencing such contact during lucid dreams makes it even more suspect IMO, because you're hoping for it. Someone saying "I tried for a week to find my dream guide, and on the last day it happened!" is the same to me as someone saying "I tried for a week to fly, and on the last day it happened!" The more lucid you are, the more control you have, the more likely that the dream will be effected by your desires. So the person who hopes for alien life in his waking life hears the DC say they're an alien. The person who hopes they are watched over by angels is told that the DC is an angel. It's your own mind filling in the blanks. And then once it's happened, once the DC has told you it's an angel, you're bound to recreate that character in another dream.

I try not to begrudge the kids over in the Beyond Dreaming forum fighting their dream-battle to save the world from whatever dark forces. But in my own opinion there are no supernatural beings flying about and slipping into my dreams. My dreams occur in my head, just like my thoughts and emotions. I know my reasoning capabilities are impaired during dreams. That doesn't lessen the enjoyment I get out of lucid dreams, but I don't take the glowing stranger any more seriously than the chicken-people.

Excuse me, that was a very confusing Velzaed; firstly, it depends on the dream, I agree some are total nonsense, though i've had ones that seem intelligently constructed, I know it's unlikely someone is studying me to experiment on, however I'm doing that very things to the DC's which I do beleive to be a albiet very different (yet reminiscent) form of life, so how unlikely is it they are actually developing some form of perennial individuality, the evolution of which would naturally be dreamguides unto imaginary friends, eventually they might become so real that one who accepts the fact that it is happening goes far enough to tell another exactly what is going on from their perspective. The figurative cells undergoes mitosis, or they have already had similar experiences and genetic material is shared.

Instead of getting off topic; I realize most of my stories are too unbeleivable to be accepted without proof, which you wont get without your sharing the experiences, you can try not discrediting a theory until you have direct evidence of the otherwise...

I personally think it depends on the person, do I believe spirits and such can enter dreams? Sure why not. I have experienced arch angels in my dreams and that was single handy the greatest experience of my life. When I first met them, anything negative just...vanished and it just was flooded with a tsunami of positive energy and instant friendship. Although I will say most of my DC's are dumber then a sack of rocks.

My mother has experienced things in dreams like her dead mother talking to her and telling her where a certain chest was (In a house) and guess what? One of her aunts had the house she was shown and there was indeed a chest. This just proves to me some things go beyond just our mind making stuff up, this leads me to believe other things like shared dreaming and such could be real. As far as imaginary friends go I think they can go two ways, either some child (maybe an adult) makes up something that isn't there to talk and play with, OR unless the person is psychic and they aren't imagery at all and are in fact spirits. My sibling to do this, we believe he is a psychic.

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Originally Posted by I U

Excuse me, that was a very confusing Velzaed; firstly, it depends on the dream, I agree some are total nonsense, though i've had ones that seem intelligently constructed, I know it's unlikely someone is studying me to experiment on, however I'm doing that very things to the DC's which I do beleive to be a albiet very different (yet reminiscent) form of life, so how unlikely is it they are actually developing some form of perennial individuality, the evolution of which would naturally be dreamguides unto imaginary friends, eventually they might become so real that one who accepts the fact that it is happening goes far enough to tell another exactly what is going on from their perspective. The figurative cells undergoes mitosis, or they have already had similar experiences and genetic material is shared.

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Sorry if that was confusing- it was pretty late when I wrote it.

You're saying you are studying your dreamcharacters for signs of life. In my opinion, you will get those signs of life because the dream responds to what you want, especially when you are in a lucid dream. If you open a door and say to yourself "I hope Paris is on the other side," chances are you find yourself in Paris when you step through. If you think "I hope I'll come across an angel," chances are an angel is going to appear, and tell you the kind of things you'd expect an angel to say. I don't *really* believe you went to Paris, so I don't *really* believe I just had a divine visitation.

I can't really comment on the figurative cells, because in my opinion we're talking about stuff made up in your head. The characters in my dreams are no more real than Frodo Baggins or the fictional Judge Holden. The only difference is that I'm the one creating them, instead of Tolkien or McCarthy.

I view someone saying "my dreams characters have evolved to a true form of intelligence" the way I would an author saying "I started writting a story, and now the characters have evolved and are real." Or in a more disturbing tone, an adult saying that his imaginary friends have begun responding of their own volition.

We can agree to disagree as to the nature of DCs. And if you really want to get in depth with the theory without listening to doubters like me than obviously the Beyond Dreaming forum is the place to go. But to the open question you ask- "Are the DC's only a mechanism of the dreaming mind, or do you think they have a life force if however subtle" -my personal opinion is that they are just mechanisms of the dreaming mind.

However it sounds like you already know what you believe, so the question is moot.

Well, Astral Entities do enter dreams.

This is one of my dreams that proved it.

Revelations - Dream Journals - Dreamviews Lucid Dreaming Community & Resource

A DC who is a IB is gives a different feeling than a regular DC created by your mind. In addition, they usually spawn as you call them, and they do not disappear, even if you go to a different room and come back to the first one. Everything might have changed, but the same entity will be there. Also, they are smarter that regular DCs

That does clarify your position much more; I do beleive the logic in the situation is entirely dependant on the definitions of life one accepts, just as much as personal experience. So unless we confer our thought on either as you say the question is moot. Thanks alot for contributing.

I also agree searching for signs of consciousness would likely result in finding them, either because you may have a greater ability to notice them, or the dream provides what you want.

I'm thinking it could be an amazing journey educating them and follow their evolution, while learning from the ones who have wisdom to offer, I'm interested how an advancing civilization would work without the rules of waking life

And what does the acronym IB stand for?

So you think dream characters can be taught, and be made a civilization? Interesting, I have never seen anyone suggest this before. :)

By connection; if they are a creation of my dreaming mind; they are in contact with my thoughts and have the same metaphysical potential as any being. The civilization would be a perfect experiment to test this; first recurring dreams would have to be mastered to give them the opportunity for evolution, and theres the question of intervening, or simply observing, meanwhile a plan for timescales is required, as dreamtime can be very dilated.

only thing real is now! if u dreaming or not dosent really matter! in the real world we think that a dream is something else than the world we are percieving now... but a dream is not different from something u try to remember that had happend just a few days ago... if we were discussing this in a nother dimension it would be a whole other story:) then we would be in another now and that would be what we would think was real...:)

First off: Moved thread to General Dream Discussion

Second: What I'm about to say might not only drop a bombshell on this thread, but it kind of contradicts what I had held as my feelings on DC sentience, until now...

Considering the idea of multi-verses and an emerging theory in astrophysics - that our entire universe may be contained within the epicenter of a single black hole, and that certain, viable black holes within our own universe might contain other universes - I now have to re-evaluate my initial idea that dream characters are not, themselves, conscious. If an entire universe can be held within the epicenter of a black hole, then it is unreasonable to assume that conscious beings can be considered as unconscious, just because they exist in a smaller-scale reality. Just like our thoughts and actions are based upon the physical restraints of our universe, an entity living in a smaller-scale 'reality' (even if for what we might consider as a fleeting moment - such as a dream) cannot be automatically assumed to be unconscious simply because the requirements for consciousness on our scale might be different from theirs.

If the black hole / multi-verse theory is correct, then how can we assume the DC's we interact with aren't conscious? Is a universe within a universe any less of a universe? Sure, it may seem smaller - which many might interpret as less-complex or less-significant, but is it really? It's a possibility that I've just - at the beginning of this post - begun to take with a little more contemplation...

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Originally Posted by I U

Excuse me, that was a very confusing Velzaed; firstly, it depends on the dream, I agree some are total nonsense, though i've had ones that seem intelligently constructed, I know it's unlikely someone is studying me to experiment on, however I'm doing that very things to the DC's which I do beleive to be a albiet very different (yet reminiscent) form of life, so how unlikely is it they are actually developing some form of perennial individuality, the evolution of which would naturally be dreamguides unto imaginary friends, eventually they might become so real that one who accepts the fact that it is happening goes far enough to tell another exactly what is going on from their perspective. The figurative cells undergoes mitosis, or they have already had similar experiences and genetic material is shared.

Instead of getting off topic; I realize most of my stories are too unbeleivable to be accepted without proof, which you wont get without your sharing the experiences, you can try not discrediting a theory until you have direct evidence of the otherwise...

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Just thought I'd throw in this quote by HP Lovecraft. While I don' take his word as fact, he has some very interesting opinions on the subject of dreams.

"I have frequently wondered if the majority of mankind ever pause to reflect upon the occasionally titanic significance of dreams, and of the obscure world to which they belong. Whilst the greater number of our nocturnal visions are perhaps no more than faint and fantastic reflections of our waking experiences—Freud to the contrary with his puerile symbolism—there are still a certain remainder whose immundane and ethereal character permits of no ordinary interpretation, and whose vaguely exciting and disquieting effect suggests possible minute glimpses into a sphere of mental existence no less important than physical life, yet separated from that life by an all but impassable barrier. "

From "Beyond the Wall of Sleep"



Anyways, Oneironaut, how's that extrospection coming along?

Great quote. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by oniman7

Anyways, Oneironaut, how's that extrospection coming along?

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Loving every second of it. :>

Discovered anything life changing?

Nothing that I would necessarily call "life-changing," but some interesting stuff, here and there. That black holes/universes thing was the most recent theory to blow my mind - assuming it's true, of course. Heh. A few other fairly interesting things that I'm a little too buzzed to try to list off right now, but I still love all this kinda stuff.

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Originally Posted by oniman7

Just thought I'd throw in this quote by HP Lovecraft.

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I love you for quoting Lovecraft, :B

Anyways.
I feel as though it can be either or, and that's kind of the fun of it! I've found though that if they possess more "unique" traits, they obviously will stand out more than just a crowd of average joes. Kind of like a bunch of suits, with a clown in the middle of them.

At times they are indeed a semblance of our perceived definitions of sentiency, this is undeniable to the experienced dreamer. I’ve put more thought into the possible ways this phenomenon could exist:

One thing I have experienced recently is people who I know in waking life, have imprinted some of their selves upon my memory, and this is now in the dreamtime world with a very realistic correlation, they appear in reasonable settings that I might expect to find them in waking life and they act normally as well. It gave me the idea of gauging the difference between them by replaying similar scenario’s questions ect. To either and noting how they act. Tonight I’m going to find my girlfriend and open a link between her and the one I’m going to meet right now to see what they say to each other. (I wonder if they get jealous?)

The one’s I don’t know there are two explanations for I’ve considered, they are composites of collected knowledge assembled into coherent form from our subconscious mind. Or they are Trans-dimensional beings visiting the astral plane intersecting our dreams. Perhaps these are the same thing…

in my dreams i believe that the DC's are fully fleshed out before i begin dreaming. so that they are in all actuality 'real' people. in the sense that they have their flaws ticks and mannerisms. however the only DCs that only really stick out to me upon waking are the ones that had that 'bravado' of being larger than life. like they could be in their own folk tales etc.

and no i dont believe that they actually think, i just believe that the subconcious plays the part of the role that it creates.

* and as far as astral beings are concerned. if they exist i believe that all astral beings are, are our energies thoughts and emotions, projected and proliferated by our subconscious. now whether or not they can be malicious... that has yet to be seen by me. but even if it were malicious. there would have to be a good reason for your subconscious or another persons subconscious to create said malicious entity.

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Originally Posted by ReiXgh

and no i dont believe that they actually think, i just believe that the subconcious plays the part of the role that it creates.
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If your subconscious is thinking, and they are your subconscious then they are thinking. It would be a very peculiar organism if they are all one mind, so maybe they are partitioned by an overmind to be individuals.

*last night I was looking for my girlfriend, either her dreambody or a DC of her, I think I found both (it took awhile and I was lucid all night). The first one was on a bus (she walks to school) and later (both times I was flying cause I rarely walk lucid) I saw her walking on a path next to a big building with a sign "the colour purple". Today she dyed her hair red and it came out bright purple unexpectedly, I know from my fringe physics that information can easily and often does go backwards in time. The interpretation I get is that a DC of her and her presence are the same in principal even if different in appearance because they both originate from the same source of information.