ra·tion·al (rsh-nl)
adj.
1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2. Of sound mind; sane.
3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior.
Yes, being rational is obviously something to look down on.
It's slightly hard to be rational on such an ambiguous topic. It's open to interpretation, so "rationality" or "the sane way of thinking" might not be the best way forward. After all, I find it hard to express reason and logic on a thread that displays such uncertainty.
Oh and for the record, I in no way said that rationality was "something to look down on". I simply said that I find it distasteful when it is declared as the paramount way of thinking.
Nothing about the discussion in this thread is irrational. Everyone who is trying to help has sound discussion that springs from personal opinion and interpretation based on previous experiences and knowledge. We are reasoning, and are fully aware that there is a very good chance we are not correct. It's merely speculation in order to attempt someone with similar interests understand their dreams better.
After all, that's what this site is here for.
Adding to what Caden said, often spirit guides can be somebody you knew in past lives. She sounds like someone who can help you greatly expand your knowledge of the dream world, and also may need your help. Don't disregard her, and do your best to understand her. The fact that she can wake you up is absolutely incredible. I haven't heard of any DC that has that capability before.
I find this thread very entertaining. I agree with the Spirit Guide, which fits perfectly with the Hyu's description. I wonder what she will say when you ask those questions.
After reading this entire thread, it seems to me that the reason you have no control over her is because you fear losing her. You really want her to be something more real than a dream and to prove / disprove that would require banishing her or destroying her (as you already tried), which is clearly what you don't want. You have established too many 'beliefs' that are now in you, which you have accepted as true. Because you have set up these scenarios that you believe in, you will not gain any control over her as long as you believe in all the qualities you have given her.
Your subconscious will play off your deepest feeling. Ex. You skip school and tell yourself its okay, but deep down you feel bad for doing so. Your SC will play off the latter feeling. We can see this when you asked her if she was real. Just because you said it, doesn't mean that's how you feel.
To gain control over her, you would have to dismantle any beliefs you have in her. You would have to seriously convince yourself that she is just a dream character, and that you have control over her. If you do, I bet she would dissolve away with the snap of your fingers.
However, I would suggest that rather than taking the route of destroying her, you should explore with her a bit more. As we aren't 100% sure with everything, this may be a unique scenario projected from your SC (however, if you read this and agree, it only reinforces her existence) and may be worth looking into, but I highly doubt it. If this chase for her forbidden knowledge lasts over a week, I would suggest try removing some beliefs and showing her that it is you who controls the world. Another way to look at this is that you have (based off your belief) let a foreign entity into your mind and have indirectly given it control.
Anyways, keep us posted.
Very interesting thread, and not boring at all. In fact, your wall of text is what caused me to register here instead of continuing to lurk, because it hits close to home ;) I apologize in advance for my own wall of text.
I have had similar experiences. I have been keeping a dream journal for around 7 years, and recently (in the last year or so) I have seen a beautiful woman in several of my dreams with long dark hair and penetrating blue eyes who is, as you said, different from other dream characters. All of my other dream characters interact with me and speak to me, or they are "in the background" and they all seem like regular people, just existing and doing what they do. This woman is the only dream character to simply look at me and smile, as if she is there for no other purpose than to see me, and its nearly impossible for me to take my eyes off of hers. She always has this presence about her, not "just existing" as I said for others, but I can feel her being there and it makes me feel content. I don't think I have ever said anything to her, I just don't feel the need to speak (even though I speak to other characters). This is always odd to me after I wake up. If I were lucid, I would have many questions for her. In one dream I remember her moving her lips, but I could not hear what she was saying. This has been haunting me for some time, especially since she has only appeared to me AFTER my lucid dream, and I haven't been able to have another one yet :?
Just for clarification, I have only had two lucid dreams that I can remember, the first one I really don't count: In the first, I was immediately awakened by the shock of becoming lucid (everything faded to black). In the second, I was prepared and "held onto" the dream, and was then able to start playing around with the environment.
The odd thing is that her look and features are not that uncommon in my dreams, there have been several characters that look similar to her. But I always have an identity for those people, they represent someone out of my waking life even if they don't look like that person, and their eyes are NOT the same as hers. This dream character does not represent anyone but herself, and I have been trying to figure out who she is... She just randomly appears and sometimes accompanies me through parts of the dream, then disappears just as randomly.
So, I really don't know what to tell you, I just wanted to relay my experience and tell you that you aren't alone. I've had a lot of ideas go through my head... maybe dream guide? maybe spirit guide? maybe just my idea of perfection manifested in a dream? I still don't know the answer.
For some reason I haven't recalled any dreams whatsoever for the past few days.
My last DJ entry is on the 24th of November :(
Not really sure what's going on.
Good luck with your dreams duke, I hope you'll encounter her in a lucid one day so you can ask her all sorts of questions :)
I've got a bunch of supporters now! :banana:
Anyway, that sucks that you haven't been able to remember any dreams lately. Maybe it's just a dryspell. :(
Be sure to keep us updated!
Yeah, I don't know what's going on lately, I just feel like shit all day long :/
I'm sure it'll pass.
Feel like crap? Can't recall anything in your dreams?
Great, this is actually a good sign!
I have been through dry spells and they usually end with a blast of lucidity and recall, and happenings that are amazing! Its like the mind starts to starve and as you keep going without, it builds up in intensity and then explodes. Just relax, don't desire the dry spell and don't try to end it, let it play out while keeping up with normal procedures. Just realize this spell will end and be prepared for it cuz it usually ends when you least expect it and from my experience the end of the dry spell hits you in the face like a frying pan!
Attachment 1961
I've had exactly the same experiences. I occasionally get spontaneous bursts of Lucidity and Recall after weeks of agitating nothingness.
That's great to hear. :)
I think it's partially related to the weather, I always get slightly depressed when it gets cold/snowy outside.
The way to be rational when everything is subjective is to make no claims of knowledge.
You can form beliefs, sure, but remember that if you have no evidence aside from your feeling, you have nothing. Our feelings (and gut instincts) come from the more primitive part of our brain, the limbic system, which do not form because of what is true, but what is perceived. When someone is afraid of the dark, their fear is not because something exists in the dark, but because there might exist something in the dark. If you were to claim that there is something in the dark because you are afraid there is, then you are simply stating that there is because there might be. You have no evidence. I am not against believing without evidence, but when there is (good) evidence to the contrary, it is not reasonable to continue on believing in spite of evidence.
Also, if you are forming beliefs without evidence, make sure you preface your ideas with something like "i think", "i believe", "im not sure but," or "i have no evidence but,". Most people will not bother to do research on something a random person says on the internet unless it really interests them, which can lead to people thinking something is true because you stated it to be so, without saying that it is merely an opinion or belief.
Update Requested
My dryspell is broken, so that's good.
Unfortunately I'm quite sick right now, and even though I do have lucid dreams, I usually wake up coughing within less then a minute.
To make things worse, in my dreams I have a really hard time remembering that I want to look for her.
So yeah... basically I've made no attempts to meet her again so far, partially because of a dryspell, partially because I'm sick and partially because it's just so hard to remember to actually do so.
I'm still hoping she will show up by herself as soon as I'm cured.
Cheers,
Hyu
This is very interesting, i've been lurking around this thread for a while now... please keep us posted!
Feel's like your body and mind don't want you to see her or something.
I have been a member of dreamviews for a while now. I have hours of personal research + about 80 Lucid Dreams to my experience. I am blown away by your post. So first of all let me comment on some of the things that have been said here. Logic has no place in this forum. Go ask your neighbor if having out of body experiences and being able to control that is logical or if he thinks it is "rational" to believe this is possible? Lets see how rational things become in anyone's eyes at the point you start telling everyone you know about these experiences? Second of all, for someone who has VERY LITTLE lucid experience to tell you how you need be more realistic and "rational" about how you perceive the dream world and/or the characters in it is a joke. You have more experience yet someone with far less gives you advice in a way that sounds as they know better? lol. We are all here to offer our opinions and help to one another, but to outwardly suggest that a certain idea or philosophy is not rational is an ignorant way to position one's self. The very topic we speak of is not rational to most people. The capabilities of the dream world are very open not only to interpretation but to possibility.
On to my reason for this post. I liken the experience you are having to an experience I hope to have. I believe (and have read) that ultimately all lucid dreamers are "expected" to eventually find a character that seems to know them better than anyone.. to be in more control than anyone.... and to be more intelligent/alive than anyone else. Read some of the forums or speak to some of the more advanced and seasoned lucid dreamers. They all (or most) have one of these guides that they regularly dream with. This person is supposedly the one who will guide us in getting to know the lucid dreaming reality in more personal manner. I have read that most Lucid Dreamers only find this "dream guide" after many many lucid experiences.. and more often one person in particular will start to show up.. until the conclusion is obvious that this one person appears more than anyone else because they are there for you.. Then you just ask them or they tell you they are your guide. Your story intrigued me.. I can't wait to find this "person" of my own so that I may grow more in lucid dreaming and have a teacher as well lol...
What a dream guide /spirit guide is supposed to be is open to many interpretations... and none of them can be wrong because it is just an interpretation. To each person it can be whatever they expect it to be, or believe it to be. To me, a spirit guide may just be a character of your lucidity who is ramped up by expectations, both in knowledge and in spirit, because you want that. OR, this dream guide may truly be something greater that no one can truly understand. I can tell you this. Scientific study as proven that during deep REM, the brain has x2 times the oxygen consumption, and x2 times the blood flow, and is many times more active than in waking life. And our best lucidity comes at moments of deepest REM. So with all this ramped up fuel for though, it makes sense to me that dream characters would have the capability to excel in intelligence compared to anything we are used to seeing. It also makes sense to me that in this ramped up state of mind, if possible to contact spiritual entities of any kind, this would be the time that window of possibility would be wide open...
Please continue this thread. I am interested in knowing more about your exploration with this being and how it develops.
@atkins513
That was a nice post. :)
Of course I'll keep you posted.
I agree with atkins, Lucid Dreaming is a rather unexplored phenomenon (We are the pioneers of this). Anything like this can only be interpreted, nothing more. We don't really know if dreaming is only in our heads or something more. Maybe this girl is just a DC or a whole other deity, we simply just don't know. Interesting thread Hyu!:D
:clap: Amazing Atkins, absolutely amazing. Best explanation of this that I have ever read.
Just because your neighbour wont believe you when you say you have had a lucid dream does not mean rationality does not apply. The reason it is rational to accept lucid dreaming is possible is because it is REPRODUCIBLE under scientifically examined circumstances. It is not rational to believe in the tooth fairy because there is no evidence for her, and almost every child that is told the tooth fairy exists believes so. I do not believe in a spirit world or dream world or astral projection or anything like that simply because there is no way to verify them... namely there is no evidence that is reproducible under proper observing conditions. An explanation for astral projection is that it could simply be you viewing things from a different perspective. Is it so hard to believe that you could imagine yourself in another place in your dream? You do it every time you look in a mirror in your dreams. As for clarity, why is it so hard to believe that while some dreams are dull, others would be clear? at what point is a dream so clear that it suddenly stops being a dream? if one dream can be more clear than another dream, why does it stop being a dream when it suddenly gets to that point?
The number of lucid dreams I have had has nothing to do with my ability to determine what is real or rational, and just because someone has had more lucids does not mean they understand it better. I'm sure a lot of people have used a computer much longer than I have but that definitely does not make them know any more about it.
Also, anyone can suggest any idea is not rational as long as they can show why. I can show you why it is not rational to believe in the tooth fairy, because there is no evidence. I have seen no evidence for astral projection or any of those other things, so if you know of some point it out to me, and if its not completely subjective and I can't find a flaw in it, you've probably got something important.
not really great proof but something I have read on the subject of OBEs/Astral projection.
but as for the DC that is different I still believe it to be another side of the topic starter that he doesnt normally use in waking life.Quote:
The editors of Reader’s Digest’s book, Into the Unknown, describe the OBE in less dramatic terms:
“During an OBE the “I” consciousness seems to be aware that it is in another vehicle, which may or may not be visible to an onlooker. Some subjects feel the second body to be an exact, if transparent, replica of the physical body; others liken it to a mist, a vapor, a white cloud, an eye, a glowing ball, or something like a magnetic or electric field. Not uncommonly, the out-of-body form is thought to give off its own light, and some subjects report seeing a luminous cord connecting the ecsomatic self with the physical body. Movement out of the physical body is often accompanied by a clicking sound, an apparent blackout or a journey down a long tunnel, and may seem to be assisted by some other disembodied entity.
“The pattern also suggests that the projected form is immune to gravity and may walk, glide, float or fly. It may hover lazily in the vicinity of the physical body, or it may seem to travel great distances beyond the limits of time and space. It may also be able to pass through matter with ease but is very seldom capable of touching or moving objects. The subject usually feels he is traveling in the world of everyday life but sometimes enters regions of other worldly beauty or depression, and may see other apparitions during his experience. The out-of-body self may even seem to demonstrate some form of extrasensory perception.
“Skeptics, who are numerous, explain out-of-body accounts in terms of dreams, hallucinations, wishful self-delusions, ESP, gross misperception of natural events, psychotic episodes or deliberate hoax. No doubt each one of these factors might operate in a given instance, yet the mass of OBE cases is not so easily dealt with. For the sheer volume of anecdotal data does at least suggest that the OBE is a genuine phenomena; it suggests, indeed, that the consciousness apparently leaving the body may be the real self, one capable of functioning independently of the physical body’s mass of bone, tissue and brain cells.”