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I believe life would be boring and our souls would not develop enough if we lived on one life! You are born, you live on average 80 years, you die, go to heaven and then what? How can you enjoy the best things in life if you haven't gone through the worse? How can you recognize pure beauty if you haven't first recognized pure hell?
Think about it.
We live many lives.. until we get it right.
is what I believe
;)
I agree with that. It sounds reasonable.Quote:
...where you find the definitions of what you consider good and bad[/b]
We can easily recognize pure beautify if there are lesser forms of it. There doesn't have to be hell to know heaven. There could just be multiple levels of heaven in order for us to recognize the difference. A crude example would be, I don't have to eat crap in order for me to know that American Apples are good. I could try eating apples from different countries to compare them with each other.Quote:
How can you recognize pure beauty if you haven't first recognized pure hell?[/b]
moe.
Problem with that idea is... I don't remember ANYTHING about my "former lives"...Quote:
Originally posted by Blissful
I believe life would be boring and our souls would not develop enough if we lived on one life! *You are born, you live on average 80 years, you die, go to heaven and then what? *Think about it. *
We live many lives.. until we get it right. *
:? How am I supposed to learn anything or improve/achieve enlightenment if I cannot remember mistakes or lessons from past lives? And that also begs the question: WHO judges WHEN or HOW "we've got it right?" -This implies that there is an absolute standard of right and wrong or a point of enlightenment that we are trying to reach. Who decides what that is? Does the cycle go backwards for some people? As for "boring"
That word is for people who do not understand the principle of eternity that is in our midst! Our souls will still have an etrenity to "develop." I thinkl heaven is not so much a "place" as it is a "state of being." I look forward to heaven because it will be INFINITELY more wonderful than our present earthly state -and that says volumes because we humans can barely even scratch the surface of the wonders of creation right here on earth! We take our "reality" for granted and put too many prescribed meanings (i.e. scientific ones) in our heads which then only lead us to become "bored" because we think we've arrived at some sort of final understanding.
LCS: I agree that mercy is a necessity because our tendency to evil ALWAYS outweighs our tendency to seek God (good). My question to you would be then: how is mercy attained/obtained?
Phantasy: That is a great point -Yes, I do consider the Bible (Old and New Testament) as the standard by which I compare all. I also believe that ALL "works" are UNrighteous in God's eyes becasue of the stain of sin that is imbedded in our nature. For me, that points to the necessity of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. In his imputed (freely given) righteousness there is found mercy. And even moreso... grace (undeserved merit in the eyes of God seen only through the filter of the Lamb of God).
I gotta agree with blissful here.
Evangel YOU may not remember what you have experienced but your spirit does, it that is what has helped guide you into being the person you are now, along with your current life experiences.
And I think God whatever it may be is the one who judges when one is ready,I tend to think god is the very universe itself including us.
There is so much to experience in this physical world...why be put on this planet for only 80 or so years and miss out on so much.
Ok so what about poverty, some people have had rough times with money, food, shelter...and then there are the people living in third world countries, where garbage litters the street, people die of starvation and disease, they dont even have money, they barter... granted we can see this on tv and stuff... but do you really know how well off you are? how lucky we are to be on the internet? and being able to chat with people around the world? While little kids die of hunger disease in an abandoned shack because the childs parents have already passed on?
No none of us really know how good we have it, we only think we do.
And untill you tase the worst apple in the bunch you can only imagine how good you have it, you do not know.
Just like our spirit, it does not know untill it has experienced it all.
The spirit needs to experience all these things, it will effect your emotions and how you see the world.
Why are some people so dead to the world? why do they seem so vacant or have no clue, they dont seem to have the emotional capabilities to understand.. its not their fault.. they a jsut new at this, their spirit has yet to experience life.
So yeah to sum up I think that we experience life here in the physical multiple times. Untill we reach a critical point and then we can begin to exist on the astral totaly. And I think the universe itself is what determines when we are ready.
I also think that tapping into lucid dreaming is helping us all experience more in a shorter time =)
This is an I think post, it is not meant to change anyones perspective or ideas, I am just sharing what I beleive. :D
Wow this post has really been thought provoking. Really I don't know what to believe. Perhaps trying to be the best person you can be and to help others do the same is the best way to live our lives.
Its ok not to know what to beleive, it means your thinking about it. :D
The only thing I can suggest is follow your heart, and delve deeper into any beleifs or religions you find appealing, learn about them, and make your own desision =)
Oh, now I understand. Well, I don't believe of the eternal sin prescribed in Christian doctrines. Islam believes that man is a weak creature that is inherently good, but easily gives in to temptation, selfish desires and the whisperings of Satan. That is why we must be constantly reminded of God (such as in prayer five times a day, fasting a month and so on), the teachings in the Book He sent to us and to be watchful of temptation.Quote:
LCS: I agree that mercy is a necessity because our tendency to evil ALWAYS outweighs our tendency to seek God (good). My question to you would be then: how is mercy attained/obtained?
Phantasy: That is a great point -Yes, I do consider the Bible (Old and New Testament) as the standard by which I compare all. I also believe that ALL \"works\" are UNrighteous in God's eyes becasue of the stain of sin that is imbedded in our nature. For me, that points to the necessity of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. In his imputed (freely given) righteousness there is found mercy. And even moreso... grace (undeserved merit in the eyes of God seen only through the filter of the Lamb of God).[/b]
So I suppose this dwells down to what your beliefs are once more in order to get an answer.
As for mercy, God is the Most Merciful, and we do not need to earn it, only ask for it continually.
1) I AM my spirit. My spirit is ME. I make no such separation.Quote:
Originally posted by Serinanth
1)Evangel YOU may not remember what you have experienced but your spirit does...
2)There is so much to experience in this physical world...why be put on this planet for only 80 or so years and miss out on so much. *
3)Ok so what about poverty, some people have had rough times with money, food, shelter...and then there are the people living in third world countries, where garbage litters the street, people die of starvation and disease, ...do you really know how well off you are? *
4)And untill you tase the worst apple in the bunch you can only imagine how good you have it, you do not know. *
5)This is an I think post, it is not meant to change anyones perspective or ideas, I am just sharing what I beleive. *:D
2) When we draw near to God, we know that we will have ETERNITY to experience and learn new things. We are not limited to the lifespan of our bodies here on earth. The earth is a finite creation that will pass just like our physical bodies pass.
3)I'm not sure what your point is here... But If you're referring to justice and fairness, I believe that as I stated above we have no concept of fairness or justice and that those who seem to "unfarly" experience only poverty, pain, "injustice", etc. do so for one reason: the curse of sin. I do not experience the depth of those things, not because I am any less "deserving" of them... I DON'T "know" how good I have it (and thus, neither do you) Could I argue that "my spirit" knows it? I definitely have a profound appreciation (towards God) for things as simple as a breath or the ability to type these very words...
4) There are various ways of "knowing" besides outward experience. I think someone stated it well earlier in this post... I do not need to eat crap (paraphrase) in order to appreciate what an apple tastes like. There are other things, the ability of my imagination and reason included, that enable me to "know" without having to experience the extremes of dung and depravity. :P
5) By default you are changing someone's ideas or perspective, whether you know it or not. Simply by someone else reading your words, you are changing minds (maybe not in a drastic sense, or maybe so...) I don't feel an urge to discclaim what I am trying to do which is to allow others to see where I am coming from -regardless of any intent of mine to "change" a person's view. They will only change if they will it so... or if God changes them. Good discussion... sorry if this is getting off base here.
I just want to inject my opinion one God's fairness. A few months ago my brother called me at 2:00 am. He was breathing fast, and crying over the phone. He asked me to come and pick him up immediately. He was depressed and anxious, and I mean the sickness depression (it runs in the family, and I usually take care of anyone in my family that gets struck by this illness until he/she is back to normal). When someone is faced with this horrible condition everything becomes gloomy, and the world becomes a horrible place to live in.
He asked me a question about all those people who are poor, sick, or missing a limb. He said, “don’t you think that it’s unfair that I have everything (house, car, money, wife, and so on) and others have nothing? Doesn’t this make God unfair.” I responded by saying, “that would be true if you had everything. You don’t have your health. I am sure that you would rather be poor right now than be sick with depression.” He agreed.
Allow me to be more philosophical. No one is 100% complete except for God. God is absolute, complete and total. Nothing else can be as complete because this would mean being God (this of course is another philosophical discussion on its own). This means that everything else, not being complete, would have to have some form of deficiency. It could be in form of poverty, or sickness, or any other form.
Being deficient is not unfairness on God’s side. It is our nature to be incomplete. It’s like saying that a spear thrower (Olympics) is not strong because he/she can’t throw a feather far enough. It’s not because of the thrower that the feather doesn’t fly that far. It’s because of the delicate nature of the feather that it simply can’t.
moe
hmm, Evangel let me see if I can make myself clearer, I have a habit of not making sense :wink:
Yes our spirits are us.. my spirit is ME but I know we both agree that the spirit exists, but it does not exist in the physical realm. I dont think we have a full understanding of who we are in spirit is what I was trying to say, much like we cannot have a full understandin of god because it is beyond our capability.
I agree with you here, when we draw near to God, we do live eternaly, but I think the form of experience we undertake then is much different than now.
No I wasnt referring to justice and fairness, i also concur that we only form ideas of what we think is right and wrong, however the majority of the human population... nearly ALL of it has a certian sense of right and wrong no matter where they are located, this is true even for secluded societies living in the depths of the jungle, they still see right and wrong in the same basic light which leads me to beleive that we were given foresight to see what it is... It is however just an interpretation. And then you get the nasty people... anywhoo... What I was trying to say was we do not know how good we have it, we only think we do, this includes me of course.
I will return to the apple again, yes you can imagine how good you have it eating that nice juicy apple. But one day you might just go take a bite of an apple and find its insides rotten and decayed also including a protein snack of a bug.... and when you bite into that apple.. Every other apple you eat afterwards is going to taste even better, becuase now you really do know what the worst apple in the bunch tastes like... You appreciate it more.
I think thats what I was trying to get at =).
I guess your right about changing stuff when people just read things... As you always seem to enlighten me everytime we speak =) I am glad you are here :D
Moe, you sound like a very good brother, I think with your continued words perhaps your bro will start to come out of his depression.
I think that all the sicknes, poverty and crap that goes on in the world is nessesary, what would light be without dark? We need to have them, to be exposed to them both so that we understand, seeing all that stuff gives us an idea of how good we have it, but like I said untill we experience it, we do not know. Perhaps donating some money to a charitable fund will help make your bro feel a little better? mayhap give him the feeling that he is helping in a way? Im no psychologist but it popped in my head so i wrote it.
What purpose would we have if we were perfect? There would be no room to grow nothing to learn... it gives us purpose i think.
I also beleive that this holds true to the earth and all its peoples... ALL of us are here to grow and learn TOGETHER... This stupid bickering child like behavior that the world community displays has to end, we need to grow up, into a unified global community.. yeah yeah i know... its not gona be easy, and who knows how it can be done, but I digress too
Yikes, yikes....let's all take a deep breath and keep a cool head.
Remember:
BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER.
No worries phantasy =) One of the things I like about Evangel is that we seemt to be able to have a pretty good conversation, exchanging beleifs and not get all miffed... uhh... well.. I havent gotten you miffed or stomped on your toes have I evangel?
I am kinda stoopid at times and may be a little too layed back so I dont realise =/
I hope not if so you have to just tell me to shutup ok? 0_o That goes for anyone.
Uuuuhh.Quote:
Originally posted by phantasy
Yikes, yikes....let's all take a deep breath and keep a cool head.
Remember:
BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER.
Is there someone who needs to cool down around here? I see no "hot" heads here... 8)
Words may appear to get "heated" but as Seri said, it is GOOD discussion :bravo: . It is important to be honest (which, to me, means not being overly PC) while also not "stepping on toes..." -No you do not step on mine, Seri. :wink: In fact, I find what others see as "heated" simply as stimulating conversation. If I take offense to something, it would have to be blatant attack. On the other hand, if we're all nicey-nicey-polite and walking on eggshells,worrying about offending others all the time... truth inevitably gets compromised and the finer points of a good discussion can become dull.
As for the thing about those who experience poverty, sickness, and other things which seem to us to be unfair, wouldn't the reincarnationist's argument be that they "deserve" (or at least go through these things purposefully) such things since they have not experienced or learned of these things in their past lives yet, then? My view is that out of God's grace (which never means his arbitrary choice), HE CHOOSES to bless certain people and -maybe more poignantly- allows them to see the depth of human depravity and destruction without necessarily making them experience it directly... How bout them apples? I like granny smiths and gravensteins... :D
And Moe, I like yer analogy with the feather. Sometimes those who are close to those with long-term illnesses (or those WITH the illness) are contrastingly blessed with great wisdom -as long as the'yre open and don't allow their hearts to become hardened...
ACK, welllll excuse me! :roll:
JK, forgive me for not knowing what a angry discussion looks like...
*looks innocently*
and how would you know. you've died before?Quote:
Originally posted by moe
We die. The rules are even tougher. We have no control over anything. We are controlled. We are judged.
The concept of being judged is constant across all prophetic religions. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with imagination. I thought dream control was nothing short of that.
moe
Ok cool I thought we were on the same page, I just got paranoid I guess =)
You got what I am saying, now :D I dont think we deserve to go though those hard lives I think we need to and by (not to steal your words but I think they work well in my vision too =) Gods grace we are priveldged to do so =) Of course I wouldent be thinking I was privledged to see such hardship if I were in that boat now probably.
And I understand what you are saying too I am indeed blessed to be where and who I am now and I know that without doubt in my heart.
Mmmm grannys smtiths are good, but I really like macintosh I think... lol I need to go apple picking again, thats so much fun, if you go to a good place they have all kinds of apples. I miss the place I used to go with my fam.. hm mebby I should plan a trip this year and make em go with me haha =)