What counts are natural and what doesn't?

*What counts as natural and what doesn't?*

I hear people throwing around the name "natural". I know what it means, and some people who it applies to.

I was wondering how you become a natural?
I don't mean how to go from noob to natural, I'm talking what defines a natural?

Because I see loads of people on here, starting out going "Well I've only been here for 2 months and I've only had 5 lucids".

Two things make up my question:

What defines a natural compared to someone who is struggling?

WHY AM I STRUGGLING

I'm just gonna throw out a little guess here...

The way I see it, naturals have trained their mind to the point that it doesn't take as much effort to LD as it does for a noob/someone who's struggling. It seems that after one LD, it gets slightly easier; and so on. So the people who are getting one every night (or more)...naturals, obviously.

...or, of course, they've simply made reality checking and questioning whether they're dreaming into habits.

So anyone with a habit of R.C.s is a natural? But many people have developed habits of doing R.C.s or they think about them nearly all day, but have yet to have at least one bloody lucid?

Well, it's not just the fact that they've made RCs a habit, but they're actually effective and it's habitual enough that they even do it within dreams.

Habitual enough meaning it's a habit. A really strong habit then?

How come so many people come on here and within 1 or 2 months (or even a few days) get their first lucid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Origami

Habitual enough meaning it's a habit. A really strong habit then?

How come so many people come on here and within 1 or 2 months (or even a few days) get their first lucid?

---

Kep trying techniques and be patient but don't give up! :)

That's all you have for me?

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuck.

People don't completely agree on the meaning of the word "natural" in relation to lucid dreaming, and it doesn't have a totally solid definition. Someone who has lucid dreams often (even every night) without any conscious effort to do so would be considered a "natural" lucid dreamer. People who respond very well to lucid dreaming techniques (having lucid dreams regularly only weeks or days after starting) might also be considered "naturals", but in a different way than the first one.

Ok, so in my opinion the word "natural" can be used to describe a person who has a strong predisposition to lucid dreaming. They learn faster, get results faster, and maybe even don't need conscious effort to get lucid. Using this definition, there is a continuum of predisposition with natural on one end and non-natural on the other end. As a result of this definition, nobody can become a natural lucid dreamer because they cannot increase their PREdisposition to the skill.

All that is completely arbitrary though, and anyone could come by and redefine "natural" and be equally correct. Some theorize that the phenomenon of natural lucid dreamers is linked to a level of innate awareness, causing people to naturally realize they are dreaming without traditional induction methods. Genetic and cultural factors could also have an effect on predisposition to lucid dreaming.

so... I'm sure you've heard this before but be more aware, be confident, and most importantly try to have fun with the process instead of being anxious for results. Comparing yourself to other people who have an easier time is not a good idea if you are already frustrated with a lack of results.

Edit: Make sure you don't get the wrong idea from this post. You CAN have lucid dreams every night, and with time it is even possible for you to do so without much effort. I was only being picky with my definition of "natural"

I got my first lucid the night I joined DV. I think the term "natural" defines someone who may or may not know what lucid dreaming is, but they can have them without any help or without practicing techniques.

Reality checks don't cause lucidity - the awareness that's practiced along with them does. RCs themselves are more of a confirmation that you're dreaming. :content:

For me natural is nothing more than a person who has discovered lucid dreaming without having practice or initial knowledge, just like Puffin said. Everything else is more or less an attempt to brag, at least in my eyes. I accept term natural to cover people whos mind easily accept lucid dreaming, though. That usually results more successes, hence you could say their mind is natural for dreaming. Dunno.

So.... all I can and should do is wait and keep trying and hope for something to happen?

Thats a lot like telling me to stand outside in my garden each night and expect an airplane to fly 20ft above my house. It has never happened, and there is no indication that it ever will. What I do doesn't seem to have any effect or influence. And the only advice you are able to give me is to believe and stay confident?

I reiterate: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuck

hmm.. well I start with the step by step guide. How good is your dream recall? Do you recall many dreams per night and do you remember details and can you form a timeline for them? If you don't, you have to first work on your dream recall so you don't forget dreams. Once your dream recall is good and your mind focuses more on the enviroment, your general awareness developes. In that way you will eventually develope your dream awareness and result in lucidity. It its all about training your mind, throught the day. You have to change your general awareness and eventually it will soak through your dreams and subconscious too.

Hope it clarified a bit :)

Well, are you trying too hard? Stress can lead to less (lucid) dreams.

Do you have a dream journal? They help memory recall a lot, which can lead to a higher chance of lucidity.

And also, how many techniques have you tried?

I have a dream journal. It has over 3 months of pages in it, each night ranging from no dreams (about 4 nights) to 7 dreams. I have an average of 2-3 dreams recalled each night.

Methods I have tried:
First off, basic R.C.s for about 3 weeks. Thats doing them properly, one every 10 mins or so.

Then when they got me nowhere, I tried subliminal messages. A video which SAPPED MY DREAMS DOWN TO NOTHING, so I gave that up after 3 days.

Did a WILD WBTB, had great dreams that night, but the next night was nothing special, nothing different.

Then I practiced ADA for 3 weeks, it did nothing, same as the R.C.s. Got tired of no changes in dreams.

I even tried drinking and eating apples and bananas before bed for 2 weeks, I had good dream recall, but thats about it.

Then right now for a week, it's been using a band on my wrist to help remind me to do R.C.s, but that hasn't yielded much either.

Hmm.. as TheAuthor said trying too much will usually hinder it. Remember that it is your mind your are teaching to think in a new way. You cannot essentially force it, you have to change it to look world differently. I'd say don't try consciously so hard. Try to train your subconscious because that is what you need in dreamstate.

How to train subconscious? There are many methods all ready in this post. Learn to question why you are where you are, when you are and are you dreaming. If you see something odd, anything at all, something that interrupts your normal mind, try to see what reality you are in. Awake or dreaming. That is the only trustworthy way I have encountered. You cannot rely on conscious RCs, you have to do it because your subconsious decides to question the enviroment.

/end_ramble

FUCK.

So this is another method that shows merits and hope.

Yet what makes it different to other methods that failed me?

Why does everyone else get quick results from the same standing as me, and I don't get them, for seemingly no difference?

Techniques are just flavor and tools. Main thing is general awareness. New way to think. How I see it, it is all about how fast your brain accepts new way of thinking and awareness. Those who find it easier to accept gain results a lot faster. Usually the first time is hardest, but after that your confidence and skill begans to develop and everything is easier.

Remember that nobody can know what is the best way for you to learn. Techniques here are just things people have come up with and found working. Posting it here is a way to spread knowledge and hopefully find a person who notices that this technique is suitable for him/her. You have to find best way for you. An idiot thing to say, but it is, after all, all inside your head :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Origami

FUCK.

So this is another method that shows merits and hope.

Yet what makes it different to other methods that failed me?

Why does everyone else get quick results from the same standing as me, and I don't get them, for seemingly no difference?

---

For goodness sake, stop swearing! Not everyone is your age and plus I think it's mean when we are trying to help you and you just swear! Listen to the advice if you want to lucid dream and calm down. :eh:

People come on here saying how they have been trying for years without much success (there is no way it will take you THAT long if you are practicing with consistency and motivation). You are not alone in taking a long time to get results. Do you ever just visualize what a lucid dream is, or what you will do when you get one? Sometimes with all these techniques and practicing you can lose sight of the simple goal: you want to realize that you are dreaming in a dream.

Also, I don't see MILD on your list of techniques. Of all the lucid dreaming techniques, MILD is probably the most well documented to work. If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading "Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming" by Stephen Laberge.

One more thing: try meditation. It not only increases your chances with lucid dreaming, but also lets you focus and relax more effectively.

I'm not swearing at you, I'm swear at exasperation. How would you feel if you kept trying something, and the one place you could go for help was a place filled with people willing to help, but also crammed with people who are needing help but don't actually need it because they are already successful but don't realize it??

FU- udge. I don't think I need help. I just wished some of the people, the little newbies who joined this month and last month, who have had 7 LDs and think they are falling behind or need help, would just realize that some people here, me included, are the only ones who need help.

Insufferable little whiners.

To be honest, your whining seems a bit more insufferable than theirs. No, I don't mean to offend, just pointing something out.

Some people learn it quickly, some take a little longer to wrap their head around the concept. Like it or not, you'll just have to wait it out. Getting frustrated will only hinder you.

Origami, if you feel that you have no influence over what happens then what's the point?

Just let go. I think lucid dreaming came to me easily because I'm a lazy kinda guy. When I first started I was hopeless. After a while I was just so tired of trying so many techniques. I just thought to myself. "Well, if I have a lucid dream, then I have a lucid dream. If I don't then I don't. It would be nice to have one though." Then the lucids slowly started increasing. If I started getting too excited about them, or thought about it too much then they would stop.

-Sigh- I don't know what to say to Encourage/Help you. Because the way most people here get lucids were different from mine. (e.g. stress gives me higher lucidity)
Anyway, just don't give up..do not think of it as a Very Hard task. The reason (I think) some get it fast and some slow is just because of how they change their way of thinking to certain stuffs.
Start off bit by bit. And most importantly, do not force over it. I wish you luck ^-^m.

a natural no longer needs a technique, they can will themselves to a lucid dream when ever they want. I am by no means a natural & i have had dry spells like anyone else. However im comfortable enough to take a few days off with out feeling bad about it. namaste.

I think the greatest problem is you feeling frustrated. It ain't a race.

You don't become a natural. You are a natural. But you can enhance your ability to LD with techniques, RCs, etc.
It's just having lucid dreams naturally without trying, more likely not knowing you have lucid dreams willfully, until you learn more about them, but that's not always the case.

I know it isn't a race, but can you think back to when you were just starting out? For me on here it's contributing, passing on advice and things, getting involved in tests, but gaining nothing, then I see newbies come on and get their first within a few days or a week of trying a method that I'm still trying weeks after.

You cannot blame me for getting really frustrated and annoyed. I feel like the only (I know I'm not the only, but I'm in the tiny minority) of people in an airport where everyone else has a ticket to go somewhere cool and I don't. I get up to the gate sometimes or even boarding, but then for no reason get trolled when the method just stops doing anything and I'm stuck.

Even taking a break doesn't help me. I took one, about 8 weeks into trying, for a week or so, my dreams just went to nothing. I kept up my dream journal, but my dreams just shrank.

So I can either give up entirely and hope that one magically comes along, or keep trying and get more frustrated.

Thanks for the help btw

yelling fuck over and over again wont help :P

I've only had 1 (all the other 8 were semi)

And i've been at it for so long

But you have still had a lucid and 8 semi lucids. Whats stopping me from having my first one?

And I will yell whatever I want thank you very much.

BUBBLEGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Origami

I'm not swearing at you, I'm swear at exasperation. How would you feel if you kept trying something, and the one place you could go for help was a place filled with people willing to help, but also crammed with people who are needing help but don't actually need it because they are already successful but don't realize it??

FU- udge. I don't think I need help. I just wished some of the people, the little newbies who joined this month and last month, who have had 7 LDs and think they are falling behind or need help, would just realize that some people here, me included, are the only ones who need help.

Insufferable little whiners.

---

Your way of venting your frustration is rather anoying, but will give you some space because I understand your frustration.

It obviously seems like you are highly motivated and exerting the effort to try and attain lucidity. As mentioned before don't compare yourself to other people, it is well documented that individual differences is a fact when it comes to lucid dreaming or anything else for that matter. If these compariosons you make between yourself and others actually matter to you, no wonder they stress yourself out mate.

As mentioned by SilverBullet a break can be a good idea. Quite litterally STOP TRYING (you may even have to force yourself doing this). Normally not an advice I would give, but it has worked for me before. Came out of a month-long dryspell by adopting a "couldn't-give-a-toss" attitude. Stopped meditating, reality checking, even discontinued my dream journal, which funily enough produced quite a few lucids to the point where I lost count of how many I have had so far, because I didn't bother writing them down.

As I said not normally an advice I would give, but due to your obvious frustration it might just do the trick.

On a side note, another thing not mentioned so far I believe is physical activity. Don't start running just before bed, but physical activity during the day have also been shown to increase the probability of lucidity.

And mate, even though you say you aren't swearing at other people, but just because you are frustrated please stop doing it. It comes across as rude, when people are just taking their time to describe what works for them, and you slam them with an attitude that you are just hearing shit you already know, and it clearly isn't working for you.

You bet I can be annoying when I'm frustrated. I am getting frustrated, and you telling me to not get frustrated because- no. I'm frustrated, disregard everything I say that's unrelated.

Fine. I'll take a break from it. A week of doing nothing. I won't even come on here for a week. But if nothing happens during that week, be prepared for a topic called "I'm back, FUUUUUUUU"

Starting now, see you later.

Quote:

---

WHY AM I STRUGGLING?

---

I've been into this a couple of months. I've 'struggled' too. Actually I think a mood of frustration and struggling is the worst thing you can bring to LDing. I know because it hasn't helped me. I'm trying to relax and enjoy the learning process now...

Don Juan said:

Quote:

---

Get as heavy as you want when we talk about dreaming," he said. "Explanations always call
for deep thought. But when you actually dream, be as light as a feather. Dreaming has to be
performed with integrity and seriousness, but in the midst of laughter and with the confidence of
someone who doesn't have a worry in the world. Only under these conditions can our dreams
actually be turned into dreaming."

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Origami

But you have still had a lucid and 8 semi lucids. Whats stopping me from having my first one?

And I will yell whatever I want thank you very much.

BUBBLEGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUm

---

:lol:

ahem

6 months

It's taken some of the more experienced LD practioners months and years of trial and error before they get it...

Have you tried Calea Z and other related legal herbs?

I haven't had a lucid yet either but I dont mind I will keep trying

Calm down. WBTB + MILD is what I say. But seriously give up or keep on trying. There's no use in complaining about it. Also have you ever taken a break? Might work for you.

Finally.. the first bit of sense in this thread, that I nearly agree with:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dowzen

It's taken some of the more experienced LD practioners months and years of trial and error before they get it...

---

Very revealing thread, btw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dowzen

I've been into this a couple of months. I've 'struggled' too. Actually I think a mood of frustration and struggling is the worst thing you can bring to LDing. I know because it hasn't helped me. I'm trying to relax and enjoy the learning process now...

Don Juan said:
"Get as heavy as you want when we talk about dreaming," he said. "Explanations always call
for deep thought. But when you actually dream, be as light as a feather. Dreaming has to be
performed with integrity and seriousness, but in the midst of laughter and with the confidence of
someone who doesn't have a worry in the world. Only under these conditions can our dreams
actually be turned into dreaming."

---

YES, that freakin quote is the best way I've seen my state of mind for lucid dreaming explained. I love those Castaneda books.

I class myself as a natural this is why: since i was a child i have always woke in the night and had SP ((only found out thats what was happening to me not so long ago)) this would throw me into a FA or a lucid dream..I had never heard of lucid dreaming or SP when this was happening to me, all i knew was that when i heard the noises and felt funny i would either have a nice dream where i knew i was in a dream or i would have a terryfying faulse awakewning or suffer the hallucinations of SP. I never once tried to do this, it is something that just happens to me and now i understand it more i work with it instead of fighting against it. So as you can see this is a NATURAL ability that once scared me and confused me but now i have controll and confidence and no longer fear the unknown i enjoy it :)

I hope this message isn't too late to reach you:
Doing nothing is absolutely different from relaxing..you won't get anything from doing nothing...
And I still think Visualization & Self questioning is the simplest/easiest/most convenient practice, compared to any other complicated techniques.

Free your mind, Neo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dreamer4127

For goodness sake, stop swearing! Not everyone is your age and plus I think it's mean when we are trying to help you and you just swear! Listen to the advice if you want to lucid dream and calm down. :eh:

---

And you, settle down. Strong words are for strong emotions.

Quote:

---

Visualization & Self questioning is the simplest/easiest/most convenient practice, compared to any other complicated techniques.

---

I've been trying this recently. Are there any threads on how to do it to induce a lucid dream? I'd love to read more on this technique because it seems to get you to the core of your being quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shinice

I hope this message isn't too late to reach you:
Doing nothing is absolutely different from relaxing..you won't get anything from doing nothing...
And I still think Visualization & Self questioning is the simplest/easiest/most convenient practice, compared to any other complicated techniques.

---

He wont exactly be doing nothing, after all, he still does want to lucid dream badly.
If he sets that intent within himself then he can lucid dream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Origami

Fine. I'll take a break from it. A week of doing nothing. I won't even come on here for a week. But if nothing happens during that week, be prepared for a topic called "I'm back, FUUUUUUUU"

---

I'm just worried though..
And nope, no such treads yet as these are just small (but important,which most people didn't realize) practices, not techniques.
However (I believe) these practices are the ones which can really change your views and thinking of...well...Everything
which will eventually lead one to the path of LDing.

Here's another perhaps cynical thought you might consider: some of these newbies may be reporting tons of LD's, but they might not actually be having them. Sometimes people tweak their story, and indeed their own memory, in order to make it more interesting. Also, it is very easy, especially for people who think about it a lot, to have non-lucid dreams about lucid dreaming -- literally your dreaming mind giving you a situation where you say "hey, this is a dream!" but there is no actual awareness -- but to never have an actual LD at all. People new to LD'ing could fall easily and often into this trap.

So definitely don't base your success or failure on other people's reports; follow your own path, no matter how long and windy it might be. Also, read LaBerge's book, it might help.