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I was just wondering... I'm a moderator on the biggest hungarian LD site... and noticed that some of the newbies claim to have 1-2 hour long LDs. They mean that as in real time (checked the clock, ect)... It seems kinda unbelievable to me...
Of course they can feel like hours go by in the dream, but in reality that can be much shorter...
What are your opinions on this? I'm not sure what to believe...
Hmm...
Seems to me that chances are they didn't look at the clock, roll over, and enter a dream. They probably looked at the clock, went to sleep, had a dream later on that felt like a long one and then looked at the clock when they woke up.
Exactly what i think... i mentioned this but the guy claims that it was surely over 1 hours... But he only had 2 LDs so far, so i can easily imagine the mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoSawr
But there is another person who is a long time LDer who claims to had a 1 hour 30 minutes long LD once... but he never posts dream entries, so i don't know whether it's true or not...
It seems possible to me that after they fell asleep they were actually unconscious for over an hour and then dreamed the rest of the time. If this were the case, it would be very easy to confuse the unconscious time with dream time.
Yes, exactly. Littlezoe you are absolutely right. I agree with you.
A 1-2h long lucid dream basically means that you have to LD through the whole night (I don't know how much you can extend the REM-cycle or how much your newbies are sleeping). I also don't think you can measure your dreams that easily, because there is a long non-dreaming period and if you count that in you can easily make the mistake.
Thanks guys... seems like everyone agrees. But i welcome any other opinions :)
I've had a LD last real time about 115 minutes. It was a WBTB WILD, so I know for sure it was 115 minutes long. That's with REM rebound combined with REM extenders, and a general skill at extending LDs. To me, that shouldn't seem all too impossible... but it's the dream time that you may find hard to believe... about 10 hours.
Well I was able to look at the time this morning, and fell back to sleep for about 10 minutes. I had 2 dreams during that time, the second of which I went lucid in the middle of the dream.
Well that's not related to what i said :P It's obviously possible to have dreams in that short time, but my question was about the possibility of a 1-2 hours (in real time) long LD :)Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthInferno
Ok, simple question: How do you know for sure that your LD was 115 minutes long unless you have some sort of instrument where you can measure your REM-cycle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquidaque
Perfect question hah. I didn't see his post before, i would've asked this myself otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandyman
It seems possible to me. A lot of people tend to forget that you actually dream while not in REM sleep, although dreams not in REM are a lot harder to remember, which is why nobody really recalls them. Also it seems from my understanding that they are a lot less vivid and unclear compared to a dream in a REM cycle.
I've only slept for a hour one night before I woke up (Fell asleep at 11:43 pm and woke up around 12) and remembered I had already had a dream...
But we are talking about a LUCID DREAM here, that lasted more than 1 hour...
You see that's the problem. How do you know for sure your dream was a NREM dream. Also I think the first REM-cycle starts after ca. 90 minutes (The REM-cycle is short I know), plus (I'm not sure on this part), but I think there isn't a sleep paralysis during NREM sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffles22
Lucid dream or not it doesn't change what I have said before. While in REM cycle your brain is more active which is why we remember dreams easier and it is also why we have a chance to realize were dreaming. Weather in REM or not, there is a immensely small chance but it seems to me it is plausible that you can remain lucid even without being in an actual REM cycle.
I'm pretty sure sleep paralysis occurs whether your going into a REM cycle or not. (if anyone knows more about this and knows Im wrong feel free to correct me). Also your contradicting yourself, you ask me how I know its a REM cycle or not and then mention that the first REM cycle occurs roughly 90 minutes after sleeping. just saying...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandyman
Last thing: I know this isn't much to go on, but the dream I had was very chaotic and was blurry and dull in colors, which is completely opposite of what my regular dreams are. It could have been a coincidence but I thought it seemed more likely that I wasn't in a REM cycle.
I'm sure SP occurs when entering REM... not in NREM.
Okay, normally the first REM-cycle begins after 90min, but this span can vary on a case by case basis. I just wanted to say, that there is the possibility that a REM-Cycle already occured, but how do you proof it? I don't know your sleep schedule and your body could have just taken a 'nap'. I researched a little bit and it seems that NREM dreams are not really the simualtion-based REM-cycle dreams, but more like thinking or daydreaming (academic.pgcc.edu/~mhspear/sleep/stages/nrsleep.html <- I don't know how reliable that source is, maybe someone can confirm it or say it's rubbish). Also wikipedia says that you are not paralyzed during NREM (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NREM <- Again, I don't know how reliable that is, because the information about that seems unfocused).Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffles22
Well, I do admit that I don't know much about sleep paralysis (I recognize that you don't in fact SP while NREM) I did see this
in the same link that states that, "Though dreaming most commonly occurs during the rapid eye movement sleep stage based on there being more dream recall and vividness,[9] dreaming can also occur during NREM sleep."
Although Wikipedia isn't the best source to base an argument on, You can read any academic book about sleeping and it will tell you the same thing...
Well, it's as simple as this: I woke up to my alarm after 5-6 hours of little to no REM sleep (but sleep non the less--thanks to REM suppressors). I turned off the alarm, and quickly took my REM extenders, then went back to bed. Before I tried to WILD, I looked at the clock. It read I don't remember the time now, but you get the idea... I instantly enter a dream because I'm only half awake to begin with... I wake up 115 minutes later and look at the clock; thus seeing the time spent in the dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandyman
I'm just saying if you work with that math, you'd have an average of 12 dreams per hour. Quite a bit to remember! Could anyone really sustain lucidity for all those potential dreams and remember it all? You mentioned it being kind of unbelievable, I share your skepticism. I'm not saying its not possible, just highly unlikely. If an advanced DV user claimed that sure, no problem. But a noob to LDs? eh, I don't know about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthInferno
Man a lot of misconceptions.
First one, nobody gets SP while in REM. The name given is different, SP is only for when awake.
Second, since people dream naturally during NREM and don't move around and walk sleep, there is no reason to believe that having a lucid during such a stage will make you guys move.
Third, the late night cycles can be longer than an hour, so having a 1 hour lucid isn't that rare.
Then we have the fact that chaining cycles is posible which means its possible to have dreams that last over two hours, if people go ahead and get sleep deprived REM-rebound could make that go even higher and so on, it really depends on how people are dealing with the lucid.
And I mean, some newbies get very lucky so no reason to doubt it. And if you give someone the whole "importance because it could be a lie" they are more likely to lie again, just let them be and if they suddenly leave you will have your answer.
Now I'm a bit confused...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukif
So the term SP is only used when you wake up and can't move?
Hmmm, can someone recommend me a good information source (can be a book) about this, because it seems that the internet is not a good one.
Though the OP mentions newbies only and I'm not sure I qualify, I can say with confidence that I've had dozens of LD's lasting well over an hour, mainly due to the circumstances Hukif explained so well a couple of posts up. Also, I have on several occasions (one being just last week) been able to "jump" from REM cycle to REM cycle using WILD/DEILD without losing the dream, effectively staying in the same dream for three hours or more. Oh, and when you're conscious throughout the experience and own a clock it really isn't that hard (with a little practice) to make a good guess at how long the dream physically lasted.
Finally, regarding all this talk of NREM LD'ing: it is possible, very different, very difficult (waking consciousness has little interest hanging around during it, for some reason), well worth exploring, and you will know it when you're in it -- in other words, I'm not sure you can really include holding consciousness through NREM as part of your LD's length. That could be a philosophical point there, but I figured it would be worth mentioning. Also, I doubt a newbie could bumble into a state of NREM LD'ing, but as Hukif said above, anything is possible.
Same with a newbie having a very long LD -- it's certainly possible, but unlikely -- there's just too much you must "know" to have a REM-period-stretching, or REM-jumping LD that lasts more than 45 minutes or so. I suggest, Littlezoe, if it's not too late to make a suggestion, that you congratulate the newbie on their success, but have them really review what they wrote down upon waking, just to see if they can confirm to themselves, all clocks aside, that they were aware for 1-2 hours straight. Maybe they'll come back a little sheepish, but they'll have learned a bit about how to track these things -- especially important if they're having long LD's by accident!
Oh, and Sandyman, if you haven't already, get a copy of Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge -- it's kind of the bible for this stuff.
I hope that helped.
Interestingly enough, you didn't tell us what it's called then. I know why is that, because it's called the same way... even you don't know the other name, as it doesn't exist. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukif
Both are referred to as Sleep Paralysis, which sometimes creates confusion even.
Thanks for the other answers from you and Sageous though :)
How about this crazy thought? Sleep paralysis doesn't matter, particularly in the context of this thread. In fact, I would say the only reason it's relevant to this thread is that people who get caught up with prioritizing LD'ing side effects like SP are the same people who are going to have a hard time achieving long, worthwhile LD's.
I think Hukif is right that there may be another name for SP during sleep. I don't remember it either, but it is essentially the same thing: your body reduces its ability to move during dreaming so that you don't mimic the motions of your dream in your bed and risk injury. I think the only reason the term was invented was because people in near-conscious states -- like LD'ing -- tended to notice that they briefly were unable to move because their otherwise sleeping body hadn't yet adjusted to their wakefulness; or, as during WILD, the aware dreamer must "feel" the onset of SP as they witness their body falling -- normally -- to sleep.
The condition that causes SP is a natural factor in everyone's sleep every night. It is not a mystical event, and does nothing to improve your LD'ing skills, regardless of the often breathless "advice" regularly posted on this site. It is simply an LD'er witnessing a physical symptom of sleeping. Nothing more than that passing notice, for matters of timing and of course to avoid becoming scared, is necessary.
Also, Hukif made a good point when he said that nobody gets SP during REM -- they don't because they're asleep during REM, and thus unable to notice any paralysis. If you notice SP, you're awake*. So there is no need to discuss it. Really.
Oh, and before someone sternly corrects me: yes, I am aware that SP is integral to astral projection. That's fine. But this is a thread about LD'ing.
Sorry, I might be venting. I'm just witnessing yet another interesting thread being hijacked by the elevation of an amazingly unimportant side-effect of LD'ing.
* The only possible exception to this is when you have difficulty moving during an LD, which might imply that you're closer to wakefulness than you think, or perhaps might have to do with dream control itself, but either way its an arguable exception that I don't think is terribly relevant here.
Just because you don't notice it, you are in still in SP....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Well, with this whole comment you posted, you are part of the hijacking, no offense :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
Yes indeedy. What I was saying was that the act of noticing the paralysis was where the term came from. When you're asleep, you're literally paralyzed regardless, so of course you're still in SP. Also, I believe Hukif was correct in stating the physiological term for the paralysis that accompanies sleep is not SP. But as you state clearly, it really doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
You are totally correct, which is why I apologized for the rant. I guess I liked the basis of your thread enough that it was worth not biting my tongue (which I usually do) and say something that might get the chat back to long LD's and helping newbies who are sure they had them. That went well, given that my whole point was that SP doesn't matter, and I may have failed to make it...Quote:
Well, with this whole comment you posted, you are part of the hijacking, no offense :P
And, to end my part in this hijacking, I'll shut up and hope that the thread recovers!
This thread causes me mental anguish.
Blarg.
Back on topic nao...
I always forget the name and write it wrong, thats why I didn't say it and not because it doesn't exists... but really google could tell you the answer quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
SP: Sleep paralysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And sleep atonia: Rapid eye movement sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Between, the one thing I always confuse it with is "sleep APNEA" and they are very different, so didn't want to embarass myself by totally mispelling it again <.<
I never ever heard that before. Everyone i was talking with about SP kept calling both SP. :) You'll notice that most people use SP for both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukif
And it's basically the same, so no problem.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
Yup. The only exception is that in the SP where you are awake is... well that you are awake, but are still in that state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
You have a poor understanding of what sleep paralysis is and how it differs from the experiences of NREM sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/sleep-...tified-131380/
I posted this here earlier, but I guess you either missed it or chose not to learn something.
I'm sure you either misunderstood something, or are just trolling me... O.oQuote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
What i'm talking about is SP during sleep and SP while being awake is the same. It's just that you don't notice the first. I didn't say anything about NREM sleep..
Doesn't means I have to use the same term for both, now does it? Thats like saying that because most people believe in the Judeo-Christian religion it is true <.<Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
Yes, they are basically the same. The different name was given because SP tends to scare people and thus become an anxiety problem and can be a disease, plus it isn't the "normal" to be in that state. Thats how a lot of diseases work anyway, something that happens naturally suddenly comes at the wrong time and ends up becoming a problem, getting a new name to not confuse people and what-not.
Also I think you are totally misunderstanding from the first post I made, the "first" was meant as a joke at the start because people were taking the whole "newbies can't have this!" too seriously, and felt like being a weirdo and take attention away from that with a simple but not well known fact.
But yeah it isn't really a problem, not like how people name it matters much so long as everyone understands what the other means.
Well my first dream was around 40 to 60 mins and it could of been longer but I was ill too, And my throat hurt.
It's works, Don't limit one's brain.
After all the Human brain has created everything you see.
I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread, Mzzkc, as I was sure you had the knowledge-backed words I was failing to find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
Thank you. Now we can only hope that many dreamers will pay attention to you, and to your "SP" tutorial.
Again, sorry Littlezoe, for continuing the thread hijack... now back to our show?
Just look at the longest possible REM cycle.
...As a baseline, yes, but remember that an LD'er, perhaps even a newbie, possesses an innate interest (and ability?) to stretch the length of that REM cycle well beyond the "official" numbers recorded by researchers of normal sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
I wasn't aware one could increase the length of REM sleep. If possible, it'd decrease the amount of important sleep, NREM. Unless you just sleep more overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
True. I guess "important" sleep depends upon where your priorities lie! But for what it's worth, I think the only time an LD'er could successfully extend REM would be very late in a night's sleep (like after at lest 6 hours of sleep) which is well beyond the time allotted for the important sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Haha, touche. I'm sure on DV we'd consider REM to be most important. ^_^ Have you had success with lengthy LDs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
We seem to naturally prioritize REM sleep. When sleep deprived people nap, they instantly drop into REM sleep, skipping the early stages. Polyphasic sleepers cash in on this to stay sane on frightfully small amounts of sleep. This is also why afternoon naps work so well for dreaming.
I've always wondered why we can go right into REM during naps, but not when we go to sleep at night. For example, if I am tired, I can take a 7:00pm nap and instantly enter REM. If I go to bed at 7:00pm, however, I will go through a normal sleep cycle. I guess we can't fool ourselves? Is there an explanation for this?
That is bizarre, unless as you said, there is some deep-rooted, subconscious expectation bias that alters whether one enters NREM/REM based on expected sleep duration.
Might be the nature of the sleep periods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot_Butler
NREM has been shown to be more physically restorative, while REM tends to clear out mental fatigue.
I know in my case, napping is more of a mental thing, as my body is not at all worn out after only a few hours of being up.
After a long day of walking, running, and standing everywhere I go, my body is what needs a little pick me up.
Some, depending what you call lengthy. My lower to mid-level LD's tend to last the longest, usually a minimum of half an hour or so, though I've stretched them to twice that often, and, by jumping from REM to REM without losing the dream thread, I've stayed aware in a dream for well over an hour many times, with some lasting three hours or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
My full-on lucids tend to be much shorter, probably because of the focus necessary to maintain the complete self-awareness mixed with the fact that I tend to do difficult things when fully lucid, whereas when less lucid I tend to let my dreaming mind do most of the work so I can have some fun.
That makes sense. Have you ever seen anything about the timing of REM cycles being persistent, independent of sleep schedule? I notice this most during wake back to bed attempts and naps. Anytime I try to modify my sleep schedule, the REM cycles tend to stay anchored in the same time slots. Is this just my imagination? (My only way of tracking REM is by assuming it coincides with vivid dreams. Not very accurate, I know).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
Attachment 3239Attachment 3238
Ok if you want evidence that they have had 1-2 hours of LD, you could try to use or ask them to use an Iphone application called Dreamz (Are My Reality). Ask you can see in my screenshot, it says that from 2:37 AM to 6:45 AM, I had 3 dreams, had the longest dream for 40 mins and my total dream time was 1 hr 23 min.
Looking at the graph, you can see where the 40 minutes came from (should be from 4:13 AM to 5:01 AM).
You can get the application from the App Store. I hope this helps.
P.S. I suppose the dream time is based on REM sleep according to the Dreamz App. This app by the way is also a lucid dream aid by giving audio cues when it detects that you're sleeping via the accelerometer. Haven't had success with it yet though but maybe its because I was in the first week of CAT or the cue was too soft. Only tried it 2 nights though.
Why is that hard to believe? O_O
^ I know the apps like that very well, i used them myself as well. DreamZ doesn't seem that reliable though like Smart Alarm Clock for example.
How can it know when you're dreaming?
Well you have to put the phone near you and it makes the stats based on your movement during the night... Not exactly sure how does it determine REM time though... But Smart Alarm Clock seemed believable when i used it for a while.... :sQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
lol very bizarre... I'll give it a go anyway.
Same here, is it for I-Phone as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
First thing I'm gonna do is put it in a quiet, undisturbed place away from me. See what happens.
It'll still record something :D People did that already :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Oh dear. :/
It's weird.... i'm not entirely sure if these apps work correctly... but i only believed the one i used because i checked two times when i had an LD. During the time i was in LD, the app said that i was in REM :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
