Sleep Paralysis (SP) is one thing, and sensations we feel as we are falling asleep or during WILDing are entirely different thing.
They are both legit events, they can happen at same time but they are unrelated.
1. Sleep paralysis
Automatic condition that our body starts after we start dreaming. It will paralyze our muscles so we don't move while dreaming.
2. Sensations while falling asleep or WILDing
Any vibrations, movement, falling, flying, body light or heavy, visual, tactile or auditory hallucinations, etc. are normal sensations of our body falling asleep that we notice only because our mind is falling asleep a bit later than our body.
Unfortunatelly, these 2 events are frequently, and mistakenly both called SP.
Please read the posts below in spoilers and post your question if there are any.
Spoiler for Sageous's post:
Yes, "they" are indeed making LD'ing harder by elevating SP to a necessary requirement or goal of LD'ing. With SP now accepted as a practically institutional (if entirely mythical) step toward lucidity (especially with WILD), many novices are truly barricaded from becoming lucid because -- even during occasions when they are well on their way to a LD -- they abandon their effort because they never "got to SP."
The sad irony of all this is that, as Gab mentioned, the SP that everyone is talking about is actually REM atonia (a normal function that holds your body still while dreaming so you won't act out the things your dream body is doing, but from which you can consciously exit any time you wish), or just a state of deep relaxation. Actual SP (as you seem to know, from the OP) generally occurs only upon waking, when your mind emerges from sleep before your body, and you cannot break the paralysis at all until your body catches up.
I think that the mythology of SP can be traced back to LaBerge's mention of it in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming; that mention spanned about 2 of the 300 pages of his book, and it was more a reassurance that REM Atonia (a term he curiously did not use) is harmless, and can be used for lucidity if noticed. I wonder if LaBerge ever wishes that he had left that bit out of his book...
Bottom line: Yes, elevating SP to a necessary component of LD'ing can cause a mental block, or barricade between you and lucidity. Try not to make it too important... and I suggest too that you try to follow the links Gab provided.
Spoiler for Help us dispel the myth:
Unless you have a medical condition that puts you in sleep paralysis when you are not in REM, you will not notice SP. SP starts only AFTER you start dreaming. By then you are already asleep and either having a non-lucid dream, or you are WILDing and having a lucid dream. In both cases you don't notice the SP.
SP is condition our body starts to immobilize us when we are dreaming, so we don't hurt ourselves. It's when we can't move at all, no matter how hard we try. It's not when it's really hard to move because our body is so relaxed and we don't really want or care to move.
When our body is falling asleep it comes with all kinds of weird sensation. We normally don't notice them because our mind is falling asleep almost at the same time as body does. But when we WILD, our mind stays aware and we notice them.
They can be tactile, auditory, sensory or visual. We can feel, see, hear things like vibrations, body getting lighter/heavier, all kinds of tingling, relaxation sensation, falling down, sinking through bed, hearing all kinds of different sounds, seeing images or even movies. These can also happen when we are in SP because we are in REM and dreaming, but they don't happen because we are in SP. They happen because body is falling asleep. The only indicator of SP - sleep paralysis - is when we can't move no matter what.
The confusion started years ago before any good information from Lucid dreamers was available. When all "scary stuff" happening while falling asleep was thrown into one bag and labeled SP.
But now we know better as you can see in these 2 threads put together by our members with decades of experience in lucid dreaming and sleeping (haha).
Sleep Paralysis Explained
Sleep Paralysis Demystified
To all the good folks that are replying to questions on this forum - I thank you. I would like to invite you, the new generation of lucid dreamers and helpers on this forum to helps us dispel the myth of SP.
Spoiler for Not a stepping stone:
SP happens only after we start dreaming. By then we are asleep and we don't notice. It's not supposed to be noticed. It's a defense mechanism that our body starts so we don't move when we are dreaming.
That said, sometimes it is possible to notice SP. It's when our body fails to turn it off the moment we wake up, or it turns it on just a bit too early. This happens infrequently though and that's why it's called a disorder.
When we WILD, we may notice SP if we try to move and we can't. But normally even then our body realizes we are awake and it will stop SP right away. That's why we try not to test if we are in SP or not when we WILD. Also, because SP is not a goal or stepping stone or something we need to reach in order to have a LD.
I also have to note, that what some people call SP is not SP at all. Vibrations, sensations of body being light, movement, getting relaxed, extremities falling asleep, hearing things, seeing things... these are not SP. They are signs of body getting relaxed and falling asleep and maybe even already fallen asleep, while our mind is still awake noticing all these things.
Spoiler for Difference between SP and sensations:
If you are completely immobilized to the point, that you can't move no matter how hard you try, then you are right and you are in SP.
But if you are talking about the buzzing, body feeling heavy or super relaxed, all kinds of different sounds, sensations of being moved or distorted - these are all just normal signs or falling asleep. They are called hypnagogic hallucinations and they are all just that - hallucinations. They can not hurt you in any way.
Some people find them uncomfortable and even painfull, some enjoyable and exciting. I have just woken up from a nap with some awesome HH - I was falling through my mattress for hundreds of feet through a elevator like shaft and the sensation was for a lack of better word, sensational Previously, I have felt great pressure on my body, on head, felt like I was lifted up and twisted into a pretzel with my joints being twisted in unreal manner, felt flying, falling, as if being in a hammock, on a water bed - and I enjoyed every single one of them.
So I would say that all of this is normal in our world of lucid dreamers.
Spoiler for Confusion about SP:
Can you describe your SP? Lot's of times there is a confusion, as SP used to be described as vibrations, feeling of heaviness, floatiness, movements, feeling that it would be hard to move. All of these you can get when you just relaxing and you start to fall asleep while keeping your mind aware.
But REM atonia is something that everybody gets every single night every single time when we start to dream. It paralyzes muscles, so we don't act out our dreams. You can't induce it just by laying still. Then I would be paralyzed everytime I chill on sofa watching TV. It's something that we have no control over.
If you falling asleep and you are very close to dreaming, or you waking up and you feel paralyzed, the name REM atonia changes to Sleep paralysis. It is a condition some people have chronicly. For majority of population it's a 1-2 a lifetime experience. When it happens, something went wrong. Atonia failed to disangage when it should have, or it kicked in prematurely.
But you wake up numerous times at night, many times straight from a dream and you are not in SP/atonia, because it worked exactly as it should.
Spoiler for Can't move, not just hard to move:
Yes, when you wake up paralyzed, you have SP. Paralyzed, as in you can't move at all. Not that it's kinda hard to move.
Vibrations, or other sensations, are not sign of SP. If you happen to get them at the same time, that doesn't mean, they are related. They just happened at the same time.
Yes, SP is a hickup, as you doctor put it. It's a disorder that some people get. If you get it just by laying still, you have a disorder. Majority of population can lay still for hours and not get SP, because they don't have this disorder. For majority of population, REM atonia starts after we start to dream and it ends the moment you wake up or stop dreaming. If it doesn't, you have SP.
Spoiler for It's not supernatural:
Sleep paralysis is when our body is immobilized after we start to dream. Simple defense mechanizm, so we don't act out our dreams and kick a wall or punch someone sleeping next to us, or start walking, screeming, anything pretty much that we are doing in a dream at that moment.
REM atonia, which is a normal state our body engages after we enter REM state and start to dream, happens to everybody every nite, every time we dream. It starts automatically and ends automatically the moment the REM is over or we woke up. Sometimes it can happen that REM atonia starts while we are still aware, or doesn't end the moment we wake up. Those instances of REM atonia are called SP - sleep paralysis. It can be scary if we don't know what is happening. But if we know what it is, it can actually be used to enter a LD, since we are already half way there - all nice and relaxed. Just relax and try to enter another dream while keeping your awareness. Or if you want to end SP, start by changing your breathing. Make it faster, and your body will realize that YOU are in control of it, so you must be awake and it will end the SP. Also, try to wiggle tips of your fingers and toes. Everything else is paralyzed. But the point is to show your body that you are awake so it ends the SP.
When lucid dreamers WILD, we get into state when we are still aware, but already dreaming. In that moment we could be already in REM atonia. But normally we don't even notice, because why whould we? SP is not a goal of lucid dreaming, and testing if we are in SP is counterproductive, since moving and testing if we are in SP could and would get us out of the state when we are already in a lucid dream.
So, SP is anormal state our body enters us into every time we dream. Nothing supernatural about it.
Spoiler for Not LDing goal:
SP (REM Atonia) it's an involuntary action and will happen whether we notice it or not, right at the proper time when it's suppose to. It doesn't matter if we notice it or not.
It's not a LDing goal or something we need to reach in order to move forward in the WILDing attempt. In fact, trying to reach SP will hamper your WILDing, because you may never notice it, not even once in your whole life. Not even when you are WILDing or DEILDing and you in fact are in SP because you are in REM.
But if you happen to notice that you can't move no matter what, you can try some motionless RCs or just roll out of the bed or stand up with your dream body. But anyway, those are instructions for a normal WILD : P
I had an episode today, I am scared. It has never happened this way, I am just trying to understand or find an answer.
04-12-2017, 04:16 PM
AstronomyDomine
Good information. Was wondering about the difference between REM atonia and SP
05-31-2017, 12:19 AM
rebeccaprophet
"sleep paralysis" usually is demons sitting on your chest trying to stop your heart. It's not always demons, though, so don't be afraid. If it hurts, sit up fast and push the demon off of your chest. Sometimes right before it happens I see a gruesome, witch-like demon. I see my foster grandma and suddenly she looks like a demon, and I feel pressure on my chest and I instantly wake up and push her/it off of my chest.
Occasionally it really is "sleep paralysis" and it can be enjoyable, knowing you are dreaming, or not dreaming but hallucinating, with pleasant or Divine visions. It might feel uncomfortable but sometimes it feels peaceful. I think it's the second coming so demonic sleep paralysis happens less often. It happened to me for a long time.
Sleep paralysis is a good opportuntity to fall back into sleep and have a lucid dream (sorry my spelling is off my first language is archangel...I forget it though). Another thing is it's more likely to happen if you fall asleep on your back, so if you want to avoid it (if it's scary and nightmarish) lay on your side as you fall asleep. If it's usually peaceful, go to bed on your back and it might be more likely to happen. Remember that you can fight the paralysis and sit up and go to your dream journal to write down your dream, nightmare or not. If it is a nightmare, go back into it lucid (or try to) and transmute the dream and turn it into a peaceful exploration of your consciousness. Don't pay attention to demonic images. You are getting them because demons talk to the back of your mind while you are sleeping, and your soul remembers that and creates nightmarish images. I think it is the soul that causes dreaming, and other times God gives you dreams (Divine Visions).
Happy dreaming! :)
05-31-2017, 01:51 AM
gab
I'm sorry, but no.
Sleep paralysis is NOT anything sitting on your chest. That's what people used to say before science discovered what sleep paralysis is.
Sleep paralysis (SP) is simply just that. Our body being paralyzed, so we can't move. That happens after we start dreaming. If we were still able to move when dreaming, we would act out our dreams and perhaps hurt ourselves or those around us.
We are already dreaming when this paralysis hits, which is correctly called REM atonia (literally paralysis when in REM). And since we are dreaming, we see dream images. REM atonia starts the moment we start dreaming, and ends the moment the dream ends, or we wake up.
Now, sometimes something goes wrong, and REM atonia doesn't turn off when we wake up. This can happen a couple times in a lifetime, or even never. For some people it happens more often. Then it's called SP disorder.
REM atonia - medical term for muscle paralysis during REM
Sleep paralysis (SP) - same atonia, but it's called this when we notice it.
So when we are still paralyzed when we are awake, our mind can't really explain why (if we never heard of this happening before), and makes up a "logical" explanation. Something must be holding us down. As since this is a scary event (again, if we don't know this can happen), we imagine all kinds of scary scenarios. In olden times, those were demons. Now they could be aliens.
But if you know this can happen, it's just a feeling that you can't move and you don't get scared, you don't get any scary images either.
Lucid dreamers practicing WILD method of lucid dream initiation theoretically go through this paralysis. But most of us never experience it. Because by then we are dreaming and have better things to do than getting freaked out by non-existing monsters.
Also, many sleep on the back and don't get nightmares. It's very subjective.
And yes, if you happen to notice that you can't move, you can just relax and go back into a dream. Since you are awake, it will be a lucid!
But if you don't like it, you can break free from paralysis. Not by sitting up, because remember, you are paralyzed. Trying to move IS what freaks us out. But you can let your mind know, that you are awake, so it turns off SP. You do that by simply showing your mind that you are in control same was as when you are awake. By changing your breathing speed, by trying to wiggle tips of your fingers or toes.
Or try and levitate out, or roll out of your body for adventure in dream/astral lands.
05-31-2017, 10:40 PM
rebeccaprophet
I agree that that happens, and that it's not demons. When you are paralyzed you don't feel pain or big pressure. You just can't feel. I agree sometimes it's just the brain doing it's work. But sometimes it IS actually demons. I understand you might not be Christian, but I know in my heart that I am correct.
06-02-2017, 10:11 PM
rebeccaprophet
Sleep paralysis happened to me. I was fully conscious I was sleeping but I wasn't dreaming but I couldn't move and was feeling Jeff's pain. Jeff was one of my friends that became an enemy. I thought about getting up and knowing the pain would stop but I couldn't. I know that if I drifted into REM I would dream so I didn't try to get up, but that didn't happen. I was in that condition for like one or two hours. It was both peaceful and painful but not at all scary like demonic SP is.
10-27-2017, 12:12 AM
Courga
I am new to DreamViews so bare with me.
I am so relieved to see that this place does not teach SP as a necessary step for WILDing. I have been attempting WILDs lately and have never experienced paralysis during them, and usually give up eventually because of this.
I am curious, though-- I have experienced real paralysis after waking from sleep several times. It has never been scary for me (in fact I was kind of baffled when I learned most people are frightened of it), and I always sort of enjoyed the feeling. If this were to happen in the middle of the night, is it possible to WILD from that state, or should I wait for it to fade first before attempting transition into dream? To be clear, I have never fallen back to sleep while paralyzed before so I am not sure it is possible; usually I enjoy it for awhile before it fades and I regain my ability to move.
10-27-2017, 05:15 AM
TravisE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Courga
I am curious, though-- I have experienced real paralysis after waking from sleep several times. It has never been scary for me (in fact I was kind of baffled when I learned most people are frightened of it), and I always sort of enjoyed the feeling. If this were to happen in the middle of the night, is it possible to WILD from that state, or should I wait for it to fade first before attempting transition into dream? To be clear, I have never fallen back to sleep while paralyzed before so I am not sure it is possible; usually I enjoy it for awhile before it fades and I regain my ability to move.
I'm sure it is. In fact, I believe I managed to pull it off a couple of times in my early LDing days. My SP experiences were like yours: never really scary, just annoying at worst, though nowadays I hardly ever experience it anymore for some reason. The SP / REM atonia normally happens when you are in or near REM, where most vivid dreams occur, so if you're already in it, you're probably pretty much there already. The only issue might be if you're already waking up and it fades before you have a chance to get dream imagery going again.
11-04-2017, 02:21 AM
yaya
during my first attemps to OBE i had scary SP. for example i saw dark entities who wanted to pull me out my body.
but after many trial my SP are very much like the normal waking up. I see no jinn or demon or dark being unless i invite them to my OBE.
there are good resources for you to study these things. for example robert bruce in his book "psychic self defence" has mentioned many astral beings that you might see in your SP.
if you use shielding methods then you are safe and they can't grab your energy.
01-27-2018, 09:08 AM
PrisonPlanet
Hello gab! new here..to play devils advocate, can anyone really prove that spirits dont exist? only thing i conclude is that there's no dogma or rulebook for dreamworld
01-27-2018, 03:48 PM
Courga
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrisonPlanet
Hello gab! new here..to play devils advocate, can anyone really prove that spirits dont exist? only thing i conclude is that there's no dogma or rulebook for dreamworld
Due to the nature of science and hypothesis testing, no one can ever say anything doesn't exist-- but that doesn't mean it does. The burden of proof lies with whomever makes the assertion. Think of it this way: if I say an invisible baby elephant follows me around and shoplifts from wherever I go, no one is expected to believe me until I've provided solid, non-circumstantial evidence.
Because we can never prove the non-existence of something, we must draw conclusions based on the fact that we have not seen any evidence that it does, and take into consideration evidence for simpler, alternative hypotheses; for example, maybe you have a video of me stealing from your store-- that still doesn't prove that the elephant doesn't exist, but it provides evidence for a different explanation of events.
01-28-2018, 11:16 PM
PrisonPlanet
Courga unfortunately i dont understand your analogy..i could easily formulate mental image of baby elephant (or baby elephant disappearing) i tinker around with (electromagnetic) levitational devices, mirrors, optical illusions..for a couple hundred dollars i could probably make you invisible! maybe its irrelevant..not real, but something i could replicate, thats attainable..unlike dreams (lucid dreams) scientifically proven in 80's yet documented throughout history yet we cant pigeonhole whats going on..its too early, my personal opinion dreams aren't constantly upgraded or updated (like science) ..neither are ghosts
01-29-2018, 12:58 AM
LighrkVader
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrisonPlanet
Courga unfortunately i dont understand your analogy.
Well, it's all pretty simple stuff. You asked if we can know spirits aren't real. She correctly confirmed that, as of today, we can't do that using the empirical method of aquiring "certain" knowledget. Then she explained what she thinks is the practical way to approach these concepts. What is practical of course depends entirely on you what you want :)
In my opinion the whole burden of proof thing only applies if your claim can be proven scientifically. "Unsciencable" and beliefs don't have to be proven to be valuable. because again, it depends on what you want. Being a blowhard and telling someone to prove something unprovable is meaningless, insensitive, closed minded and estranging. We do ourselves and everybody else a favor by being humble when sharing our beliefs. And also by being humble when we disagree with someone elses.
As for proving what is going on in dreams using science, I am very sceptical that we'll get there.. Doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see how it would be possible...(That said, I'm absolutely sure it will be done, poorly... and I'm sure a lot of folk will blindly believe it, as they already do)
Science and phenomena of consciousness don't go very well together at all. Luckily there are other ways of understanding these things :)
01-29-2018, 01:49 AM
PrisonPlanet
Agreed..but administrator began with 'im sorry but no'..didnt appear as 'practical way to approach' but non negotiable decree..we cant know with 100% certainty why people have unusual dream experience's (like you said whats practical (or i suppose whats not) is a matter of opinion..respect your opinion and appreciate advice
02-11-2018, 05:13 AM
PrisonPlanet
Courga and staff..my intentions weren't to belittle anyone (but perhaps my emotions got the best of me) take care
02-19-2018, 10:52 AM
Posquant
Let me say ... paralysis is a function of certain entities we encounter in sleep. I call them 'rubber souls'. And don't get me wrong. It can be really scary. But please understand. YOU ARE NOT ALONE.
06-25-2019, 12:42 AM
Caradon
I've never had full on SP where I couldn't move. But I've had plenty of the other sensations while following awareness into sleep.
I'm all for to each their own, but I'm never going to believe demons are coming for me in my sleep. No matter how weird of experiences I may have, I'm going to have fun with them not fear them.
There is kind of a fun movie on Netflix about SP and the old hag myth that I saw recently. I can't remember the name of it at the moment.
05-15-2020, 06:55 PM
Fruityowl
I experienced sp the other night for the first time, but it didn’t freak me out. Yeah, I couldn’t move and it was hard to breathe, and some creature was clawing at the side of my bed, but I’d done a TON of research on sp beforehand. I was startled at first from hearing the scratching, but almost instantly I recognized what it was and “accidentally” fell into another lucid. Trippy stuff, man.
05-21-2020, 05:54 AM
Lang
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruityowl
I experienced sp the other night for the first time, but it didn’t freak me out. Yeah, I couldn’t move and it was hard to breathe, and some creature was clawing at the side of my bed, but I’d done a TON of research on sp beforehand. I was startled at first from hearing the scratching, but almost instantly I recognized what it was and “accidentally” fell into another lucid. Trippy stuff, man.
You know, if you take what you learn with the SP stuff and use that with that issue with that DC that you are dealing with then maybe that may help you in away. Maybe use J as a dream sign, a cue to do a reality check. The most likely and sensible answer is that dream characters, as with everything else in the dream, are fleeing hallucinations, just like any Hypnagogia that you may experience with SP.
09-09-2020, 12:27 PM
Xanous
Why are people still preachy about REM Atonia and SP here? Stop it. It's cringey. The differences, If there are any, are so minuscule it doesn't matter. Also, IT DOESN'T"T MATTER. I agree that none of this is the goal or should be seen as a stepping stone. However, when I find myself experiencing true SP (always randomly and beyond my control) and/or one of symptoms listed, I use it to enter a lucid dream. A lot of times I stay stuck in it and I just enjoy it for whatever it is. For the people that find themselves randomly stuck in SP it can be terrifying. It's important for those people to know that they can use it for something beautiful. It doesn't matter if it was REM Atonia or true SP both can be used as a tool however, none of is necessary. I will continue to call it SP because its simple and I prefer to keep things simple. There is no need to over complicate lucid dreaming. Generally, what works for one, doesn't work so well for the next person.
I typed all of that and then I realize we necro'd a thread. Oh well Ill post it anyway! :cackle: well it is a sticky so.....
Also there are no demons or creatures in this stage. Those are hallucinations. The only demons the exist are the ones you create.
01-04-2021, 05:11 AM
TheUncanny
Since it's alive and kicking now...
All this sticky thread appears to do is differentiate SP from hypnogogic (or perhaps more accurately 'hypnopompic') hallucinations.
Regardless of rarity or categorization as a disorder, sleep paralysis is when you're conscious during REM atonia. I get this all the time, more often than LDs regrettably, and apparently a lot of other people experience paralysis during sleep too. If you can keep your wits about yourself, it's a fantastic opportunity to enter a lucid dream from it's inception. It's an unmistakeable sign post, and you can watch the dream materialize from the darkness right before your eyes. But it's not necessary for WILDing (or perhaps that'd technically be DEILDing at that point).
Visual, auditory, and tactile hallucinations can occur independently of SP, and are not mutually inclusive. Having one doesn't mean you'll have the other. So if you aren't getting SP, that's fine, you don't need it. If you do, that's great, use it as a way to LD.
What's there to argue about?
01-04-2021, 09:58 AM
Eonnn
My first few experiences of SP, I always experienced the sensations and imagery at same time. At first it was frightening, and fear made the hallucinations worse. When I learnt to remain calm and unafraid, I began to see the sensory hallucinations for what they were, creations of my own mind. Nowadays, if I have SP often there is no sensory hallucinations attached because I just say to myself "oh, I'm in SP" and remember to just remain calm, and keep a clear mind. I then use it as a way to either start visualizing a lucid dream I would like to create around me and enter into, or as a way to start feeling and amplifying the vibrations to form an energetic body for astral projection then just roll out of bed in astral form.
01-10-2021, 01:24 PM
Posquant
I don't get it. Words are easy to use. You say "hallucination" as if you know it wasn't (physical) real. But you don't know that - do you?
01-10-2021, 10:44 PM
Lang
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posquant
I don't get it. Words are easy to use. You say "hallucination" as if you know it wasn't (physical) real. But you don't know that - do you?
What makes you feel this way? How did you come up this conclusion?
