Lucidity on demand

Hello,i've had over 100 LD's by now,i started around 6 months ago.
my first was due to isha kriya,it occured after the first month of meditating 20 minutes each day (isha kriya meditation).
i would say at least 20 times i've tried to find a way to gain an LD on demand entry point,
so far this is what i've aquired,:

1-The dream does not wish you to gain the ability to LD on demand.
2-The dream is Very,VERY,good at stopping you each time you try.it goes so far as to kick you into awakening even.
3-I Have Indeed,Confirmed,it is possible to enter a lucid dream state on demand,it does not require prequisites or time,it can happen in as much as a minute,
i confirmed this with my spirit guide.
I have so far gotten to the part where he tells me how exactly its done,
you have to sit in a cross legged posture,with your spine fairly erect,and not just erect but more like erect in a speicifc way triggered at a specific mucle in your lower back,
but everytime i do that i get kicked out the dream,like i said,the dream does not want you to be able to initiate lucid dreams as you wish.
since there was not enough time to go trough the process by his instructions i tried to urge him to hastely tell me the steps so i can try them outside the dream,but the dream litteraly muted him,
or deaphened me.
i basically need your help with this,maybe one of you older more experianced members of this community can help out,

what i've tried so far in order to obtain Instant-LD on demand so far :

-Tried Programming my brain trough a computer screen,it didnt work as the screen wouldn't load up.
-Tried Anchoring a certain event in the dream to the same event in the waking reality as a trigger,didn't work as the objects inside the dream are not the same they so slightly differ from reality.
-Tried engraving a decree into the dreamspace that would allow me LD on demand,didn't work as the dream Litteraly,and this is very intresting,Washed the Decree off by filling the whole dream with water.the water would start coming out of the ground or the wall or whatever the decree was being written on and it would wash everything away,waking me up in the process.

Things im going to try next :
-Opening a gate inside the dream that leads to awakening,and litteraly do the reverse of the Dream Exit Method to see what happens.
-Telling my subconcious to make it so that each time i close my eyes after smelling Rosemary (or cumin) i would enter a lucid dream.
-Create an airlock inside the dream,litterally just empty space,and summon my spirit guide there to teach me without distractions?.

Please give your ideas and join in the attempt to make this happen,i cant even imagine if one had the ability to enter a lucid dream whenever he wanted.
perhaps thats why the dream will not yield to this possibility.yes,litteraly.

This might not be the kind of response you're expecting, but I feel that the mindset of thinking of the dream and the unconscious/“subconscious” as being separate entities that do things to you on their own volition isn't a helpful one. Your dreams are very sensitive to your beliefs; anything you believe is likely to manifest itself just as you describe, making it appear to be true, and making you believe it's true, further reinforcing such dreams.

If you consider that your dreams are part of your mind, and that the unconscious is part of your mind, and that your consciousness is part of your mind, then all of these things are literally you. It may appear that the dream is “kicking you out”, or doing other things against you, but this isn't necessarily the case. Your dreams may indeed be playing out scenarios like this, but in many cases these are just a reflection of your internal thoughts and beliefs. It might be a good idea not to take them too seriously. I'm not trying to tell you not to believe that dreams can't have a deeper or spiritual meaning if you wish, but just suggesting that it's up to your conscious decision—don't let what happens in your dreams choose what you believe for you, if you know what I mean.

Also: Consider that lucid dreaming is a very delicate mental balancing act that is difficult to master, so failures are to be expected. They don't necessarily mean your mind is working against you. People who enter LDs “on demand” or have 100% or nearly 100% of their nightly dreams be lucid are usually those who have been practicing for literally decades. Keep trying, but don't expect things to happen quickly. This is a lifelong journey, not a race.

theres nothing innovative or new about what your saying,im trying to break that decades part,and ofcourse for me,it is in fact a race,just because other people we have heard of and know about havent been able to do what im trying to do doesnt mean there werent people who actualy could,and i think you got the wrong idea of what i very clearly explained was my idea of lucidity on demand,and that sure as hell wasn't to have a lucid dream everytime you slept,what im trying to achive here,is NOT lucidity via SLEEP,
im trying to take myself to lucid dreaming without having to uncouncisly fall asleep (as it always happenz,you never conciously fall asleep,it is always unconcious,and you don't have the choice to fall asleep in the case the prequisites,such as being physicaly tired aren't met,which limits you).
this means for 1 day,you can enter a lucid dream some 20000 times and exit it at your wish.
not just 1s everytime you sleep,thats useless.

Sorry for focusing on the wrong part of your post, alij8000. Certainly some interesting things can happen during deep meditation. I haven't come anywhere near accomplishing those things, so they are beyond my current expertise. Hopefully someone else here can comment.

However, I'm a bit confused about your saying it is impossible to fall asleep consciously. I may be misunderstanding you, but I know this to be technically untrue—lucid dreamers can and do fall asleep consciously, using methods that go by names such as WILD (wake-initiated lucid dream) or DEILD (dream-exit-initiated lucid dream), and it is possible to become conscious during sleep. I have personally done this quite a few times over the years. There even appear to be some similarities between the methods of doing a WILD and meditating while awake into a deep state in an attempt to reach some sort of lucid REM-like state, from what I've heard; WILD itself is arguably a form of meditation in itself.

thank you for the reply my friend,
yes i might have confused you on this my bad,
when you are WILDing you aren't conciously falling asleep,you are keeping your mind awake,as you body unconciously falls asleep,there is no way to fall asleep conciously,
for example,if you had previously slept some 10 hours in a row,or if you stomach was extreamly full,this would physically unable you to fall asleep,
and you can't decide to lay down on a bed,close your eyes,and your body would fall asleep,as it simply wouldn't because its not met the right prequisites such as being tired,and in some cases,light (not immideatly after a large meal),
this is what i meant by falling asleep uncouncisly.transitioning to a dream without losing awareness is basically what we call WILD ,that is correct,but the choice for the body to fall,is not ours,the choice is for us only to keep the mind awake as that happens.
another approach to make this clear would be to say , if we could fall asleep conciously,then insomnia would have never existed,or WILD would be a way to treat insomnia (which its not by any means,its in fact impossible to WILD with insomnia).

I'm not sure I understand. Everything you described in effort to gain lucidity was AFTER you fell asleep and were in a non lucid dream. And you are asking for more ideas how to become lucid once you are in a non lucid dream.

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Tried Programming my brain trough a computer screen,it didnt work as the screen wouldn't load up.
-Tried Anchoring a certain event in the dream ...
-Tried engraving a decree into the dreamspace ...

Things im going to try next :
-Opening a gate inside the dream ...
-Telling my subconcious to make it so that each time i close my eyes after smelling Rosemary (or cumin) i would enter a lucid dream.
-Create an airlock inside the dream...

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But in your last post you are saying that you are looking for something that would make your body fall asleep without any prerequisites such as being sleepy. Basically to fall asleep on demand.

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for example,if you had previously slept some 10 hours in a row,or if you stomach was extreamly full,this would physically unable you to fall asleep,

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Your first question is basically asking for an idea how to enter LD once you are in a dream. For that we have practices such as Reality checks, awareness and mantras that help you recognize that you are dreaming and that will get you lucid.

Your second question is how to fall asleep at any time. I think you can train yourself for that too to some degree, but that also may take time.

dear gab
i have no idea where you reached the notion that everything i described was in an effort to gain lucidity after i fell asleep,
i never said that,i think you made that up somewhere while rading the thread.
all i've said here is that i've had several LUCID dreams (i didn't mention my dreams were lucid but i don't have any idea how you could think you could speak to your subconcious or spirit guide in non-lucid dreams which i did mention,) in which i've tried to find a way to induce a LUCID dream without having to have met the prequisites that are required for a lucid dream,in other words,i wish to induce WILD without meeting the prequisites of WILD,
and Again you made something up in your mind somewhere which again i did by no means even come close to mentioning and that is that im asking how to fall asleep at any time,
nope,i never asked that,i was explaning to Travis-E that the reason i want to be able to lucid dream without having to sleep first is because you can't actually fall asleep conciously.so its an incosistent and limited way to enter the lucid dreaming worldspace.
i can't stand to fathom how you might have confused all these thingz with your own interpertation of them,but anyway it doesn't matter.
and no,there is no way to ''train'' yourself to fall asleep as you please,if there was,insomnia wouldn't be major problem in the US for the past deacde,do you know how much money goes into making insomnia pills? billionz.
i would be shocked,as well as very gratefull if instead of just ''thinking'' that its possible you actualy provided a method for it.

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Your first question is basically asking for an idea how to enter LD once you are in a dream

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i have again,not a single idea as to how you managed to reach that conclusion,i never once asked that question,this whole thread has been about Directly Entering A Lucid Dreaming State From A Waking State Therefore Bypassing Sleep,basically a WILD without having your body to fall asleep first.
it has exactly NOTHING to do with becoming lucid after alredy being in a dream,simply because dreams come after having alredy fallen asleep.

Please pay attention to what im saying im being Extreamly clear,i have no idea how your missing this im quoting myself :

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what im trying to achive here,is NOT lucidity via SLEEP,

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Just a thought - people might be more willing to help if you didn't talk down to them just for trying to understand exactly what it is your asking. We're just asking questions to get to the root of the problem so we can address it - no need to berate us if we take an accidental misstep here or there.

^^ That.

For what it's worth, Alij8000, I drew pretty much the same conclusions that Gab (and Travis, for that matter) drew from your posts. It was a bit confusing; it still is.

I think I finally understand what you are asking, and that understanding came near the end of your last post. How's this: you want to induce the conscious state, dream imagery and all, of a lucid dream without being asleep to do so.

If that is what you are asking, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, then you might be on the wrong website. What you describe sounds much more like a form of waking-life meditation than it does dreaming. In other words, you really do have to be asleep in order to dream (lucid or not), so attaining, while awake, a state that yields imagery, stimuli, and experiences that resemble a lucid dreaming state would mean that you are not actually lucid dreaming, but doing something else altogether. This is because you must be asleep in order to dream; if you are not asleep and dreaming, then you are doing something else, even if the conscious state is similar to a lucid dream. What that something else might be, I'm not sure, but it sure sounds harder to achieve than just going to sleep and dreaming!

Now -- assuming I understand you correctly -- the state you are seeking sounds like a fine goal, even if it might be a bit more difficult to consistently realize than you are imagining. I suggest that you look into some of the deeper meditation sites, if you haven't already; I think the Transcendental Meditation people used to be doing something similar to this; that might be a good place to start. Also, I would imagine that developing the skills to achieve this state on demand will take a very long time to develop; perhaps even longer than learning to WILD "on demand."

Also, and to echo Spellbee, I hope you will forgive our misunderstanding of your question. Gab and Travis are among the best minds here, with substantial experience; please don't hold it against them because they assumed you were talking about dreaming, which you apparently were not (because dreaming, in the context of LD'ing, occurs exclusively during sleep). We really do wish to help, but your OP did seem to imply to our dream-oriented minds that you wanted to do something that included sleep, and actual dreams.

i know i confused a shit load of people,so it must be my mistake otherwise not everyone would've been confused xD,i've clearly not explained well what i was trying to achive appereantly,
thanks for your answer,Sageous,
really all i was really trying to achive by posting here was for someone to try and ask their spirit guide how to achive what i wanted since i wasn't experianced enough to maintain lucidity even tough my spirit guide was willing to teach me,yes you are right,the way to do it according to my guide is actualy very simmilar to transenditional meditations,
but i was hoping for a little more than ideas,maybe to get people intrested to try finding a way themselves trough their respective lucid dreams.
anywayz i'll probbably not need that now since just yesterday i had some 20 consecutive lucid dreams in a row in which i found a way to stay in the lucid dreaming world for as long as i wanted,litteraly it got me to a point where i was so physically exhausted i decided to wake up,i still didn't use it to learn the method i was after because i was simply overjoyed and felt like just roaming around in my LD worldspace and just kind of explore :D,but im sure next time i will,
i would still greately appreciate if someone would also try asking their LD guide for directionz,as no one knows better than them.
also please accept my apologize if anyone felt like they were being treated rudely,it wasn't my intention.

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Originally Posted by alij8000

just yesterday i had some 20 consecutive lucid dreams in a row in which i found a way to stay in the lucid dreaming world for as long as i wanted

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Wow.

I don't believe you. I believe you. I don't know. But I guess I have lot's left to discover.

^ Yeah, I admit, that sounds farfetched.

Don't just brag about it, Show us! Perhaps, it's time to show all of us what you mean. You could open up a DJ, record all your ample amount of dreams from today and so on. Put as much detail as you can on there, this way we can get what you mean. Please show us your lucid and non-lucid recall and everything so we can help you. Just a thought.

Spoiler for Sorry:

Sorry for my rude comment. Posting my comment, my goal was not to question the claim. Rather, I was voicing this big question that I think about a lot. I've heard many claims that I find very hard to believe such as this one. But I find it very hard to believe that people lie about these claims. They don't have any reason to. So I am left with a paradox where I don't believe the claim and I don't believe they are liars. So, then I believe they might have a mental disorder (I'm being rude again, sorry) but that doesn't make too much sense either. Because they seem mentally healthy otherwise. Just, they dream for hours on end. I don't get it. Maybe I don't need to. But honestly, I would rather understand this than know what happens after death or any of the other more common questions with no answers. I wish I could understand people's impossible claims that I believe they truly experienced.

Sorry for changing the topic. This thread was meant to encourage people to ask their dream guide for teachings about attaining lucidity on demand and share. Not question peoples' experience. I'm sorry I started this and then criticizing it makes me an even bigger moron. :P Sorry for the interruption.

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Originally Posted by alij8000

1-The dream does not wish you to gain the ability to LD on demand.
2-The dream is Very,VERY,good at stopping you each time you try.it goes so far as to kick you into awakening even.
3-I Have Indeed,Confirmed,it is possible to enter a lucid dream state on demand,it does not require prequisites or time,it can happen in as much as a minute,
i confirmed this with my spirit guide.
I have so far gotten to the part where he tells me how exactly its done,
you have to sit in a cross legged posture,with your spine fairly erect,and not just erect but more like erect in a speicifc way triggered at a specific mucle in your lower back.

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I would keep on trying to ask the dream guide, How do go lucid? You could also, try asking another Spirit guide if this SG is not taking. Are you confident while you are lucid? ;) Sometimes, it takes a little while before you can get an answer from your DC.
Perhaps, the dream journey is more important than getting the answer from the spirit guide themselves. ;)

ok,so i saw some stuff about my ''claim'' not being real or whatever,honestly i don't even know why i would go on and say something that didn't happen least i was a lunatic or sth,
the day that i had those 20 consecutive lucid dreams i put this up
[lol, don't link other LDing forums here. If you want to share your experience, just copy paste it here. And while we are at this, a bit more formatting would make your posts easier to read and perhaps also comprehend]

i explain how i achived it there,
that was before i got any ''claim'' regardz , i wasn't really expecting someone to assume i had lied :D
anyway it doesn't matter,you may try the method yourself and if it doesn't work for you,then you may share that with everyone
,i really haven't taken any offense about it,being sceptical is ok,
i myself am kind of naive and i usually belive whatever people say and people have told me that i should be more carefull and their right.i soppouse its because of the surpluss of love i have for everyone xD.
also i saw mention of maybe sharing my experiance and writing journals on the dreams i had,well i have never actualy journaled my LDs i only ever journal my normal dreams,altough sometimes i take note of important thingz that could potentialy help me with my LD's and sometimes the experiances are so vivid that i never forget them wether i journal them or not,
however for the 20 consecutive LDs i had i will be honest,you may call me out to be a lier but what happend is that because of the mental and physical strain i had to go trough to maintain the continuity of each LD after each of them would fall apart and had to be reconstructed i barely remembered any of the dreams,i only remember the important parts of each dream,and the most exciting parts of them,i would say in the total of 20 LDs i only remembered the entering to each dream and the exiting and the few moments that i had to prepare myself as the dream was falling apart each time,also the partz in which i was stablizing each dream,those are some of the most vivid and memorable partz.i didn't keep a journal so all i have is my memory,but the next time i will surely record them for those who are intrested.
also,i haven't had any LD's after that last time,i accidentaly entered an LD at night when i was trying to sleep without having an LD because i needed rest but i dropped out as i had no intention to LD at that time,i've also been dealing with insomnia after that specific lucid dream continium unfortunetly.

I'm sorry! If I misunderstood what you are saying but, I agree with gab. It's very hard to read your posts. Perhaps, be a little mindful of what you are posting. Over the Internet, text rather than voice or emotion and intent can be difficult to judge. Even I'm horrible at that apparently.
Question? Are these your techniques or your personal goals? I am confuzzled. ;)
I'm sure that there are people out there that would say the same thing about my ample amounts of nonlucid and lucid dreams that I have but, here is the thing; I Dream Journal what I can and take part in tasks of the month and such.
Journaling can help you with overcoming issues with coming and staying stable in a lucid dream. Yes, everyone is different. I don't exactly think that you are lying but, the forum wants their technique fool proof and such. You know what I mean?
Have you have any dreams after your last LD? What are you doing before going to bed? The only time that I have ever felt exhausted after waking up after a Lucid Dream was when I was sick.

IM DISCONTINUING THIS THREAD,I DID NOT FIND HOW TO REMOVE IT ENTIRELY,
ITS A WASTE OF MY TIME,AND YOURS,
it hasn't yield the results i wanted,no one even understands what this is about,probbably my mistake somewhere,at least 1 person should've gotten it if i had explained properly.
END OF THREAD.
or at least,my participation in it.

The Most Important thing to know for you to note :,
If you choose to join this thread,you are only asked of 1 single thing to do,
Spend a lucid dream,and ask your lucid dreaming guide,or spirit,this :
''How can i enter this reality,at any time i wished,without having to sleep first or undergo sleep paralysis''
that is all yo need to do,don't confuse yourself with any fegments of your imagination,don't change the question,and don't do anything else.
the spirit guide will answer you,possibly by asking you to follow his instructions.if he doesn't answer you,or answers you conceptualy (gets engaged with you in a conversation),then its not your dream guide,its a dream character and it has no intention of helping you,just leave it and try to find your dream guide again.

now that we are done with that,as to what this thread is about,
the goal of this thread is to ''find a way to enter lucid dreaming reality !Without! entering sleep paralysis,
imagine this,you have alredy slept many hours today,your body is fully energized you can't possibly fall asleep again,
your are for whatever reason,not relaxed at all,so you can't possibly hope for any kind of WILD to happen.
HOWEVER,(ASSUMING THE GOAL OF THIS THREAD HAS BEEN MET),you choose to sit on a chair,or lay in your bed,close your eyes,and open them DIRECTLY into the lucid dreaming reality,within an INSTANT,
please,DO NOT ADD some form of your imagination to this process,if you didn't understand what i just said,read it all over again until you do,
that is the kind of scenario we are trying to achive,so that we can lucid dream INFINITE TIMES per day,
for example lets say i had a lucid dream now and i want to have one again every 20 minutes for the next 8 hours,
i should be able to do it if the goal of this thread has been achived.

post the answeres given to you by your spirit guide here,and i will too,and hopefully within a few months of asking,
we will finaly have a way to spend as long as we want in our lucid reality going back and forth between the waking reality and the lucid dream reality as many times as we want in our daily lives.

Merged 2 threads. Identical topic, original already has substantial replies. New "clarified" doesn't provide any new information.

Try to make your point alij8000 without all the words around it.
1. what it is you trying to achieve - dream or another similar experience
2. when - during sleep (REM) or awake state during day
3. why you are not asking your own dream guide since you have one, and you are able to get a Lucid dream on demand, at any moment and many of them as you claim you had 20 in one night

Please eighter just remove this thread entirely,or stop harrasing it my lady,im finding it hard to belive you would geniunly miss everything written here and come back and ask me again.

1. what it is you trying to achieve - dream or another similar experience
ANSWER GIVEN PREVIOUSLY :
the goal of this thread is to ''find a way to enter lucid dreaming reality !Without! entering sleep paralysis
when - during sleep (REM) or awake state during day
ANSWER GIVEN PREVIOUSLY :
find a way to enter lucid dreaming reality !Without! entering sleep paralysis,
imagine this,you have alredy slept many hours today,your body is fully energized you can't possibly fall asleep again,
Note : unless you have ZERO idea what lucid dreaming actualy IS currently,ITS A PROCESS IN WHICH YOU ENTER SLEEP PARALYSIS AND THEN A DREAM.
IM CLEARLY STATING YOU ARE TO BYPASS SLEEP PARALYSIS,THIS MEANS YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY BE IN REM BECAUSE REM COMES AFTER YOUR BODY IS ALREDY A SLEEP.
3-and you are able to get a Lucid dream on demand, at any moment and many of them as you claim you had 20 in one night
FIRST POINT :
I HAVE NEVER ONCE SAID THAT I COULD LUCID DREAM ON DEMAND,YOU MADE THAT UP IN YOUR MIND.QUOTE ME SAYING I COULD TO PROVE OTHERWISE.
SECOND POINT :
I said the 20 Lucid dreams were CONSECUTIVE,meaning each one was started right after the last one had fell apart,this does not in ANY way indicate that i could lucid dream on demand,it simply means once i have actualy managed to enter one,i could come straight back to it each time the dream fell apart,it doesn't even indicate im good at lucid dreaming,it simply means if i happend to have a lucid dream,i continue coming back to it everytime it fell apart.and i clearly said in my last comment that i haven't had any lucid dreams since then,if i did,i would share the experiance with you and the answer i got from my spirit guide,
you'd have to have otherwordly intelegence to geniunly had missed everything i wrote before and proceeded to then ask me again,everything that i had alredy cleared.

consecutive
kənˈsɛkjʊtɪv
adjective
1.
following each other continuously.
"five consecutive months of serious decline"
synonyms: successive, succeeding, following, in succession, running, in a row, one after the other, back-to-back, continuous, solid, straight, uninterrupted, unbroken; informalon the trot
"shares prices fell for three consecutive days"

Your 20 in a row could be one and only divided into 20 by false awakenings.
Whatever, my opinion is : there is no way you can lucid dream without being asleep.
I don't believe there is any shorcut, and about the so called spirit guide, I only see it as a dream character, not sure what he will tell you will have any legit and useful meaning

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Originally Posted by Kaan

Your 20 in a row could be one and only divided into 20 by false awakenings.
Whatever, my opinion is : there is no way you can lucid dream without being asleep.
I don't believe there is any shorcut, and about the so called spirit guide, I only see it as a dream character, not sure what he will tell you will have a real legit thing usefull meaning

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i did not ask for your ''opinion''
i asked for your ''help''
so note that this kind of attitude does not help your or anyone else,this is not how breaktroughs are made,and also note,that you are dully,noted.
and lol,are u really suggesting i had 20 false awakenings? i don't think so.
,actually,my bad,i had asked for your opinion,in the original topic not the clarified version which our dear admin unfortunetly merged with the original even tough they are some 80% not the same.

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Originally Posted by alij8000

so note that this kind of attitude does not help your or anyone else,this is not how breaktroughs are made,and also note,that you are dully,noted.

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You should really take your own advice, alij8000. I'll repeat myself once more.

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Originally Posted by spellbee2

Just a thought - people might be more willing to help if you didn't talk down to them just for trying to understand exactly what it is your asking. We're just asking questions to get to the root of the problem so we can address it - no need to berate us if we take an accidental misstep here or there.

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Obviously, there's either a language or formatting barrier here. But denying this barrier exists and blaming the people who are trying to work through it doesn't instantly make it disappear. If you honestly can't state your question without alienating the people you're trying to get to "help" you, then I see no point in letting this or any similar thread go on any longer.

For what's it worth, imagination + binaural beats catarlyze a kind of static-dreamlike-canvas, atleast it did for me. in which you are fully lucid but there is no dream already in place so you make it on ur own.

I wonder, alij8000, if this whole thing would have been a lot less messy had you first made a thread discussing the nature of dream guides, perhaps discussing what you think they are, what independent knowledge they hold, etc.

A lot of us, myself included, don't use dream guides at all. We also might tend to see them as factors of our own minds and imaginations, and not as separate beings who know things we don't (though plenty do think the latter). Dream guides are not quite as integral to LD'ing as you seem to assume, so setting up a good baseline of not only what dreamers are asking but who they're asking when chatting with their dream guides probably would have gotten you to a better start on your project... Not only that, but a simpler focus on dream guides probably would have rooted out the dreamers here who use them as you do, which would have been a help. Some discussion about all this would have been most helpful toward you both getting your point across initially, and getting the assistance you are requesting.

And yes, there would need to be discussion; you will never get far on these threads by ignoring other members’ opinions or real knowledge,' much less telling them their opinions are not needed here.


As long as I'm here:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

Note : unless you have ZERO idea what lucid dreaming actualy IS currently,ITS A PROCESS IN WHICH YOU ENTER SLEEP PARALYSIS AND THEN A DREAM.

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No, it actually isn't. Lucidity is nothing more, or less, than having the presence of your waking-life self-awareness with you in a dream; basically knowing you are dreaming, Entering SP is not required.

You might want to check out these threads for a little clarity about SP and the odd mythology surrounding it on these forums:

Sleep Paralysis Explained

Sleep Paralysis Demystified

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IM CLEARLY STATING YOU ARE TO BYPASS SLEEP PARALYSIS,THIS MEANS YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY BE IN REM BECAUSE REM COMES AFTER YOUR BODY IS ALREDY A SLEEP.

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Don't we all regularly bypass SP (or, more accurately, REM Atonia, because true SP usually happens upon waking) every time we go to sleep normally at night? The only time REM Atonia might come into play is during a WILD, and even then it can easily be bypassed by simply ignoring it as so much noise on the way to sleep and a LD. Also, I personally tend to bypass REM Atonia pretty much every time I WILD; it really isn't that hard to do.

Keep in mind that REM, or Rapid Eye Movement, got its name because REM occurs only when you are dreaming; it is basically a symptom of dreaming, because it only happens when your eyes are moving about to follow the action of a dream. So, I think that even if you were to jump instantly to a dream state, you might just experience REM as well; even if you are not asleep.

I know I said this above, but your body really must be asleep in order to dream. If your body is awake and you are experiencing dream imagery, then you are doing something other than dreaming. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, and it sounds like an excellent goal to pursue, but it might help you a lot if you can come to understand that what you intend to do might not have much to do with LDing.

I only asked for you to clarify because I wanted to help. And you are putting together Lucid dreams and not being asleep into one requirement which to be honest didn't make much sense. So I was hoping that you will use different words to describe what you are after, so hopefully we will understand.

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i very clearly explained was my idea of lucidity on demand,and that sure as hell wasn't to have a lucid dream everytime you slept,what im trying to achive here,is NOT lucidity via SLEEP,

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Lol, never mind all that below. I just found this: LUCIDITY NOT VIA SLEEP

Well, since this is a lucid DREAMING forum, I don't think you will find much help here. Because the way we lucid dream is via sleep, indeed. That's the only way you can dream.

If you want to have some imagery that may resemble dreams but without sleeping, you should look as it was already suggested, in some meditation forums. And perhaps you should stop calling what you are after "lucid dreams". Because clearly that's not what you are looking for.


Also, you are saying that you want to bypass SP. It wasn't clear to me if you still want to be asleep and dreaming while you have LD (only to bypass SP). Or by bypassing SP you meant that you don't want to fall asleep and be dreaming.

Because everytime you are dreaming you are in SP (REM atonia). Normally you don't notice it because by then you are asleep. But there is a chance of noticing it when you are WILDing or DEILDing, because then your body and mind are asleep and you are dreaming while you are still aware.

alij8000, would you say you are interested in hallucinating while awake without the use of substance but rather by only using the power of your mind? In this scenario, you could be seeing a dream, hearing a dream, perhaps feel a dream while not being in sleep atonia?

[Edit] Oops, Gab just said that.

I don't know to which extent this is possible but perhaps simply some forms of day dreaming and visualization can be satisfying.

^I was thinking the same thing. Think of us as "Spirit Guides. :P
Also, perhaps, it's like the spiritual enlightenment thing that Wisher was talking about in his thread. Either, way, you are better off doing your research and check your facts, alij8000.

@Threeofeight
yes thats true,now that you mention it,maybe we can use that dream-like state of mind to enter the dream world,like maybe imagining a gate and walking trough it,but i don't think it'll work,i've never tried so i'll try it tonight,maybe it will work its worth a try

@sageous
that was a great reply,you've got a lot of points that got trough,im going to take your example in how i do ''discussions'' :D,
@ibeauty
your right in fact if i hadn't wasted my time with people who have no idea how to go beyond their own limiations , who are so entangled up in what lucid dream traditionaly means for them and not what it actualy is (a state of mind,an alternate reality experiance,seperate that with the concept of sleep and you will see just because lucid dreaming happens when you sleep DOES NOT mean lucid dreaming can only ever go with sleeping.)

in my experiance from these discussions i've come to an understanding that the vast majority of people who commmented here couldn't seperate the concept of lucid dreaming and what it traditioanly means for them,the problem is , your just too limited in your view of things,and your not willing to expand,so instead of expanding your view and seeing things the way they are,your telling me to be the same way as you,a blockage,unwilling to explore,which is goddamn retarded,

for the last time i urge you to expand your views,Lucid Dreaming,is not a Thing that happens after you sleep,its a state of mind,that you can achive,How many ways can you achive it? can you tell me that for sure there is no way other than sleeping and lucid dreaming and sleep are inseperable? but how can you be sure if your unwilling to explore it? why are you labeling it with words like ''enlightenment'' and ''meditation'' , regardless of how you achive a lucid state of mind,AKA lucid dreaming,its still a lucid dreaming experiance,This fourm should not be limited to your limited idea of lucid dreaming,and your opinion that i should try some other kind of fourm comes from your limited and strict view of lucid dreaming as a practice and not as an experiance at its core.

@gab
im sorry mylady if my tone was a bit messy when i replied to you,
i relize it was just a misunderstanding,
@spellbee
no there is no language barrier,there is only a diffrence in your core understanding of what lucid dreaming is,i see it as an experiance,you label and limit it to a lot of other things,(im not sure if thats reffered to as ''formatting'' if it is,then your right.)
thats why you get confused when i start speaking about it,because in your experiance,we aren't speaking about the same thing,but in fact,we are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

alij8000, would you say you are interested in hallucinating while awake without the use of substance but rather by only using the power of your mind? In this scenario, you could be seeing a dream, hearing a dream, perhaps feel a dream while not being in sleep atonia?

[Edit] Oops, Gab just said that.

I don't know to which extent this is possible but perhaps simply some forms of day dreaming and visualization can be satisfying.

---

hallucinating and daydreaming?
no,thats completely irrelevant,im talking about achhiving the same exact state of mind you are in when lucid dreaming,that same exact reality with the same exact vividness and experiance,nothing like imagination or halucination or daydreaming.
only this time,instead of having to put your body to sleep first to achive it,im searching for a way to achive it,and then put your body to sleep if you so wish it after you are alredy in that state,
i understand you may have problems imagining how this would be possible or even fathoming how this could be,but would you 100% sure rule out the possibility that you may achive such a thing?
think of it as aiming to land on mars in joulvern's book,it was impossible,everyone laughed,nobody could fathom it,there was no way,but it happend.
because someone did.someone didn't laugh,someone dreamt,can't you?

so basically for those people that DO belive in their spirit guides,this is a callout to you to try and find a way,ask your spirit guide!
and for those that don't,surely there are other ways of trying to achive such a thing!
your lucid dream world is infinium,why not use your imagination and try a thing or two in there? as long as there is a desire to achive something,we aren't beyond it,i've given up on trying to limit you to helping in a certin way,now i relize i have to first start a fire in you for this possibility to be seen at first,and then move from there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

@sageous
no there is no language barrier,there is only a diffrence in your core understanding of what a lucid dreaming is,i see it as an experiance,you label and limit to a lot of other things,
thats why you get confused when i start speaking about it,because in your experiance,we aren't speaking about the same thing,but in fact,we are.

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I'm pretty sure I didn't mention a language barrier, I see LD'ing as an experience as well (I never, even once, said otherwise), and I hope sometime you might browse some of my posts, threads and even books to realize how limitless I personally assume LD'ing to be (I had to chuckle, in fact, when I read that you've decided I put limits on LD'ing -- I am quite the opposite, I assure you), but none of that matters, because I may have finally figured out what you are talking about.

Are you talking about generating a lucid state of mind during waking life? That is something I practice every day, and is well worth doing. I had thought you were talking about generating actual LD's, with all the imagery, dreamscapes, and activities that occur in the dream state; to me, doing this in a waking state is possible, but in the end it wouldn't actual be a dream, but more of an imaginative perceptual shift (which, as I said above, would be pretty cool). If you are talking about generating a lucid state of mind -- a sense of your "Here & Now" presence in your reality, an appreciation for that presence and your interaction with reality -- I really don't think you need a dream guide's input as much as you need to develop a self-awareness practice; looking into sleep yoga or Vipassana yoga might be a good idea.

If it was something else and I still have it wrong, then never mind; I will officially give up. I hope you understand, though, that trying to comprehend what you are saying or pointing out that dreaming occurs during sleep is really not labeling or establishing limits, but an attempt to communicate. Also, my disinterest in using a dream guide really doesn't mean I don't think they can exist (in fact, something like a dream guide fits quite nicely into my personal dream metaphysics). And again, I for one have always been a staunch advocate of the limitless nature of LD'ing, and regret it if my attempts to understand and help you led you to believe otherwise.

Good luck in your search, alij8000; and I do hope you start a thread to discuss dream guides, in the name of setting that search in a better direction for you.

Spoiler for Spoilered because I am not contributing to the discussion:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

But would you 100% sure rule out the possibility that you may achieve such a thing?
think of it as aiming to land on mars in joulvern's book,it was impossible,everyone laughed,nobody could fathom it,there was no way,but it happend.
because someone did.someone didn't laugh,someone dreamt,can't you?.

---

I realize my contribution is not necessary but I just thought I might comment on your reply, just spoilered so people can skip it.

I am confident you can't be dreaming and awake at the same time, unless lying in your bed, only slightly conscious of being in a bed counts for being awake. You can't be walking on the sidewalk and dreaming simultaneously because when you dream you are unaware of your environment. That's dangerous. If you're not talking about that, many people here do things such as DEILD where you go pretty much straight from dream to awake to dream. That's as direct as it gets. We dream every night so I am not sure where the rush is to brush aside all the other physical phenomenon that occur in healthy sleeping people. Just wait a little, you will dream. Sleep is good too.

Also, I was surprised you said daydreaming is completely irrelevant. Done right, with more realistic expectations, it can be quite satisfying too. The reason it can't be more like dreaming is because you are awake and still responding to external stimuli.

Okay, I am sorry. I don't want to be one to walk on people's goals so I wish you good luck on your journey. I think you must be doing well with that very interesting going back and out of dreams experience. It reminds me of a dream when I was a kid. Good luck! :)

OK alij8000 Iv only had 4 LD in my life and 2 of them have been in the last 2 weeks since i started using this site and making my own dream journel, it would seem that just the fact that i am consciously thinking about lucid dreaming seems to be enough to push me into the lucid state from that moment on!!

The first time after joining this site i found that i was ok being lucid but everytime i tried to control anything (Even myself) it would cause me to wake up.....
It wasn't untill last night when i had a full blown lucid dream i was able to controll it for the very first time...

Now i found last night theat the trick was, is to find yourself a "DreamSign" this (In my experience) is the SINGLE most important thing you can do as it allows you to "Suddenly" realise that you are consciouse,. yet....DREAMING!!
Now for me personally, my dreamsign was simply to look at myself in the mirror...OR just see my faces reflection in any reflective surface whatsoever!
Now in my dream i had to practice to hold on to that lucidity as to much controll or action would attempt to awaken me, but i practiced and practiced untill i was able to keep the dream stable, again by continuesly finding my "DreamSign" whenever the dream started to dis-stabilise!

Also...there is a post in one of the forums that explains that if you completely still idf you should awak, it makes it far far easier to re-enter the dream from where you left of exactly. :-)

^ Please don't double or triple post. http://www.dreamviews.com/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif Are we limited in our Lucid and Non-lucid dreaming? Actually, you don't know what I'm capable of with dreams and such. http://www.dreamviews.com/images/smilies/wink2.gif I guess you can say that this is why I work alone.
<Invisible people tend to see through their heads but, do sleep. http://www.dreamviews.com/images/smilies/wink2.gif
I've heard that Buddhists talked about most people will be stuck in limbo or not realize they are dead but, lucid dreamers will have an advantage and be able to recognize it and then be able to change their environment however they see fit. Do you mean this? Any progress in your DJing today? How do you know that you are not dreaming, now? http://www.dreamviews.com/images/smilies/tongue2.gif Btw, You don't have to stay here if you don't like it. You and not chained to this place, you know?

@Alij8000

I was hoping you will change your tone after you see our non-confrontational replies. But you have taken your tone to new heights.

It took you 2 pages to finally verbalize what you are looking to achieve. We can only answer to what you say, and you are still calling what you want to achieve “lucid dreams”. Even though now it’s clear that you want to have something while not being in sleep state.

If there is no language barrier (and if there was, that would be perfectly ok because we have members from all over the world with different levels of mastery of English), then you are just plain condescending and arrogant to think that you are the only one who knows about lucid dreaming and who is opened to expand their knowledge, push the limits and explore lucid dreams and all kinds of other dream and sleep related phenomena.

Because that’s exactly what this forum is all about. Had you taken your time and read up some of the posts, you would have known that. And you would have known that among people you are criticizing, one of them started to explore lucid dreaming probably before you were even born (judging by your posts), and one has several lucid dreams every night. Pretty much everybody here has some unique skill or knowledge and is eager to help you.

Maybe you should look at your posts and ours and see if you still think that it's us who misunderstood. Because the way I see it, it should be you doing the apologising, not us.

So if you want to continue in this conversation, communicate clearly without personal attacks. If you want to reply to what I just said, please post in Talk to Staff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

in my experiance from these discussions i've come to an understanding that the vast majority of people who commmented here couldn't seperate the concept of lucid dreaming and what it traditioanly means for them,the problem is , your just too limited in your view of things,and your not willing to expand,so instead of expanding your view and seeing things the way they are,your telling me to be the same way as you,a blockage,unwilling to explore,which is goddamn retarded,

for the last time i urge you to expand your views,Lucid Dreaming,is not a Thing that happens after you sleep

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You don't have to urge us to expand our views. We have been doing it on this forum for years. And many members were doing it even before this forum existed.

And yes, lucid dreaming is a thing that happens when you sleep and dream. You can not dream when you are not asleep. That's the definition of a dream. This doesn't mean that there are no other phenomena that could be similar to dreams that happen when you are not asleep.

This is actually a very interesting topic. I'm sure bunch of people would love to have experience similar to lucid dreams while we are just taking a short break at work or "paying attention" to a boring speaker at a meeting, haha. Some kind of a personal Insta - VR. But since we are so “limited, not willing to expand, goddamn retarded”, maybe you should be asking for help on some other forum.

This whole thread reminds me of that lunatic "fundamental" guy we had ages ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AstralMango

This whole thread reminds me of that lunatic "fundamental" guy we had ages ago.

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I think that's unfair to say. alij8000 is responsive to people's comments. And he's not preaching, simply trying to have people share an attempt at dreaming without sleeping (the possibility of which is questionable, but that's all).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I think that's unfair to say. alij8000 is responsive to people's comments. And he's not preaching, simply trying to have people share an attempt at dreaming without sleeping (the possibility of which is questionable, but that's all).

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Dreaming without sleeping is impossible, though. That's what everyone is trying to say.

@sageous
what barrier ? that reply was meant for spellbee and im pretty sure it says @spellbee in there,maybe i made a mistake?
and unfortunetly i didn't get my point trough to you sageous but if you look at gabs reply she got my point and possibly stated it far better than i did.
@occipitalred
thanks for the defense xD
@astral mango
pretty sure lots of people said its impossible to go to the moon when there were no rockets in progress
and if i read that correctly you are refering to me as a lunatic,thanks for that,you've made your point as to how ... forget it,im in no position to judge another.
@gab
i was not trying to be condecending,mearly trying to point out whats been causing all this confusion,as you mentioned it took me 2 pages to get my point across,but thats only because you were closed to what i was suggesting.allright maybe not,maybe im wrong,maybe im an idiot,it doesn't change anything , my point is across,were finaly on the same page,and thats great,and again i apologize if my tone was wrong again,really i didn't mean to,just said things as i saw them,maybe im arrogant im not sure,but i have to seem arrogant if i want to intice you and keep you on this thread until i get my point trough,otherwise i'd not fullfill my original goal in making the thread in the first place.:D sorry about that i knew no other way.
@Ibeauty
the limbo,yes you can call it that,you could say im trying to achive an insta portal to limbo or whatever the lucid dreaming world we go to is without having to go trough sleep as a prequisite.

Quote:

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Any progress in your DJing today? How do you know that you are not dreaming, now? Btw, You don't have to stay here if you don't like it. You and not chained to this place, you know?

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i will not lie,i've not had any LD's since my last one i think a few days ago,and not for the lack of trying,i think it might be my meditation thats preventing it,unfortunetly im not soppoused to be doing a certin meditation before bed if im to WILD but it auto-occur's and then i get insomnia,and when i get insomnia i can't WILD,which is how i LD 95% of the time.(this is the reason i want to find a way to bypass sleep as a prequisite in the first place,its the only barrier to infinite insta lucid dreaming for me)
your mistaken,i am chained to this place,by my mental state of desiring to share this with a community i think can very much contribute to my own personal progress,can i leave it alone? maybe,but i don't intend to.i do belive i can intice at least some people to try and move this process forward themselves.just getting this idea across is enough for me.(and look closely:i've alredy sucseeded in a few cases ! its a start bumpy as it maybe !)


@leeh
i cry everytime,
i understand you are new to this,but that doesn't mean i shouldn't include you into this,
what were trying to achive isn't how to normaly enter a lucid dream
assume that you could use your brain as a virtual reality machine and jump into a lucid dream whenever you wanted without having to be asleep first in order to lucid dream.
im trying to explore that possibility best as i can,starting with this thread,to make others think about it,and get them out of the blockage of ''no you can't do this''
like i said,before man went to mars a book was written at a time when there were no plans and no rockets to take them to mars,this book spoke of man landing on mars,decades later man started building rockets,and then finaly managed to land on mars,but at the time the book was published,it was deemed ''fantasy'' or ''impossible'',people keep telling me its not possible,but what do they know? nothing.

sorry double post,where is the delete button on these things??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Spoiler for Spoilered because I am not contributing to the discussion:

I realize my contribution is not necessary but I just thought I might comment on your reply, just spoilered so people can skip it.

I am confident you can't be dreaming and awake at the same time, unless lying in your bed, only slightly conscious of being in a bed counts for being awake. You can't be walking on the sidewalk and dreaming simultaneously because when you dream you are unaware of your environment. That's dangerous. If you're not talking about that, many people here do things such as DEILD where you go pretty much straight from dream to awake to dream. That's as direct as it gets. We dream every night so I am not sure where the rush is to brush aside all the other physical phenomenon that occur in healthy sleeping people. Just wait a little, you will dream. Sleep is good too.

Also, I was surprised you said daydreaming is completely irrelevant. Done right, with more realistic expectations, it can be quite satisfying too. The reason it can't be more like dreaming is because you are awake and still responding to external stimuli.

Okay, I am sorry. I don't want to be one to walk on people's goals so I wish you good luck on your journey. I think you must be doing well with that very interesting going back and out of dreams experience. It reminds me of a dream when I was a kid. Good luck! :)

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Wait ,WAIT, WHAT????????
you had a dream when you were a kid that you were going into and dropping out of dreams conciously???
i understand i might look stupid to some people for reacting to this,but this could potentialy be important!
could you describe how you were entering/exiting your dreams in that dream???
did you have some notion of lucid dreaming back then?
describe with as much detail as you remember (i know it must've been a long time but in my experiance some dreams stay vivid for life)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

i understand i might look stupid to some people for reacting to this,but this could potentialy be important!
could you describe how you were entering/exiting your dreams in that dream???

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Ah, if you're referring to that DEILD technique they mentioned... they still FALL ASLEEP to get to the dream state.

Let me make something perfectly clear, alij8000. It didn't take you 2 pages to get your point through. It took you 2 pages to use correct words to finally say what you are trying to achieve. And that was only after sageous and some others suggested that what you are looking for is not dream while you are asleep, but some other images while you are awake.

You still keep saying how you are our savior that came to pull us out of our dark hole. To make us finally see the light and to start explore and open our minds. You say that's not your intent. Well then stop using those words.

And stop using the words "lucid dreams". Those are already taken. Dream happens only when you are asleep. Start using some other words, like "images or experience similar to lucid dreams". Because you can't have dream while you are awake. Perhaps you can have something else that is similar to LDs, but not dreams. Not because it's hard. Simply because word "dream" means images while you are asleep.

So, you are having hard times getting a lucid dream, that's what this is all about? You are looking for an easy way to get a lucid on demand, without proper practice, falling asleep, mental preparation and all that other boring stuff? Is that what’s standing in your way? Is that why you berating all of us here, because of your shortcoming? You can't LD so we are closed-minded?

Here is what you can do.
1. Stop generating words that are telling us how lame we are.
2. Focus on your issue.
3. Use proper words while discussing. Do not use lucid "dream", because dream by definition means images while you are asleep. As we have already told you, which doesn't mean you can't have some different kind of images while you are awake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

Wait ,WAIT, WHAT????????
you had a dream when you were a kid that you were going into and dropping out of dreams conciously???
i understand i might look stupid to some people for reacting to this,but this could potentialy be important!
could you describe how you were entering/exiting your dreams in that dream???
did you have some notion of lucid dreaming back then?
describe with as much detail as you remember (i know it must've been a long time but in my experience some dreams stay vivid for life)

---

I had this dream at some age before the age of 9 and I didn't know what lucid dreams were. However, I was conscious of my dreams and hallucinations at night, I knew what they were, that is, not real, and I enjoyed playing with both. There was this one dream once, where I was in this cave with lava baths and two lava people were throwing fire balls at me with ill intentions. Before the fireball reached me, I would wake up in my bed, so that the fireball missed me, and then I would fall back in the dream but at another place in the cave so it looked like teleportation, and then I would win the battle. I did the awake dream transition about 6 times. Now, writing this, and with the knowledge I have now, I can interpret this situation differently. The awake moments were probably false awakenings, still part of the dream.


Also, maybe it's worth mentioning that, people said humans would never go on the moon, yes. But the people who did didn't do it on demand. There was lots of work done to get there. A whole community of people worked on gathering the knowledge to perform that feat. And all the law of physics were respected to do it. And they did sleep.

The people who got on the moon did it in space.
The people who lucid dream do it in sleep.

@AstralMango
i was not refering to any such technique

@gab
it doesn't matter what your definition of a dream is,to me a dream is an experiance,
and im thankfull some on this thread actualy share it.
its an experiance of an alternate reality,sleeping is for your body,dreaming is for your mind,if you cannot diffrentiate,that is your view not mine,and if we can't be open to each others views,then perhaps its better neighter of us enforced it on the other.
in any case,im not intrested in arguing with you,as i said before,i may have been arrogant or wrong in any way you may wish to think,
im allright with that,
you may wish to spend your time plunging deeper into my motives for this,and give me advice that i don't need as i've clearly explained why i was having trouble LDing only for the past few days,after this thread was made mind you.
or i don't know sting at me some other way,but trust me,you will not find any care for it.

@occipitalred
thank you for the reply my friend,and in great detail,are you sure they were false awakenings and not you actualy going back and fourth between the dream and awakening on demand?
the possibility is there if you are willing to be open to it,there is no way to be sure.

also its very limiting to say something like ''The people who got on the moon did it in space.
The people who lucid dream do it in sleep.''

and i don't understand how you don't see its irrelevant to our case here,sure we traditionaly lucid dream in sleep,but to think thats the only way is very very limiting,and your basically killing the possibility here.
how many ways in lucid dreams can you make a dream character? before i knew that you could pull a dream character out of a mirror,i tought there is only one way,i had never explored the possibility of another way,and that limited me,but it by no means meant that there was no other way,had no one else found another way before me,it would've been possible i'd never have found the mirror trick,because of that limitation i had set for myself,i'd have never tried anything else because i was so identified with the way i usually did it,in the same way wouldn't you agree that limiting yourself,regardless of how much your sure of something,is a bad thing?
sure you can say ok this is how we do it normally,but to deny another possibility and deny yourself even the chance to explore it should it exist? i find it difficult to comprehend.i mean why? im geniunly intrested in why you would be so protective of this idea,i mean your clearly putting some thinking into convincing me i shouldn't explore this possibility,but i don't find a reason for it no matter how hard i think...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

@occipitalred
thank you for the reply my friend,and in great detail,are you sure they were false awakenings and not you actually going back and fourth between the dream and awakening on demand?
there is the possibility,there is no way to be

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Only when I wrote to you did it dawn on me that I was experiencing false awakenings rather than actually bouncing back and forth from the wakefulness to dream. Just because that makes a lot of sense. I also have a memory of a very vivid false awakening I had at the time so it makes sense. But like I said, I had visual hallucinations at night time at that age where the images I saw were as vivid whether my eyes were open or closed. That's why at the time I didn't think there was a problem with merging wakefulness and dream so much. That's why I brought up hallucinations earlier. However, it could be possible that I was waking and falling asleep as I have often had the experience of waking up slowly while the dream is still going on while I am laying in my bed. That's just the transition from dreaming/sleeping to wakefulness. And in the same way, if you DEILD, you can go very fast from wake to dreaming/sleeping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

also its very limiting to say something like ''The people who got on the moon did it in space.
The people who lucid dream do it in sleep.''

...

im geniunly intrested in why you would be so protective of this idea,i mean your clearly putting some thinking into convincing me i shouldn't explore this possibility,but i don't find a reason for it no matter how hard i think...

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alij8000! You entertain me. I can relate. To the passion of elucidating something unknown. I embarked on my quest to lucid dream in an attempt to gain and master magical skills.

Let me explain to you my experience with hallucinations. When I was a kid, I would go to bed at night, and I would begin to hallucinate. I wasn't sleeping/dreaming yet. But I felt things on my body and when I looked, there were spiders and bugs. And all around my room, little helicopter bugs would fly around, little goblins would jump around the furniture. I knew they weren't real and I would put my hand in front of the image to test it. My hand didn't hide the images, they would simply be in front of my hands, like my eyes were projectors. But the spiders scared me. When there were too many spiders on my body, and I would even see the image of a big gross spider that was as vivid whether I closed or opened my eyes and I couldn't handle it anymore, I would walk into the hallway and to my parents' bedroom. On the way, I would see things. A cat come out of my mom's slippers for example. Once my parents were awake, the hallucinations were gone and I could go to bed peacefully. I knew they weren't real, I just wanted them out of my face so I could sleep.

That's my experience with visual and tactile hallucinations. And hearing hallucinations are things that some people experience (though I have only experienced it twice with music beats, not voices). If you hallucinate completely, I don't see how that's not a dream. It's quite vivid.

In both waking experience and dream experience, it's the brain creating your perception. In waking life, the brain uses external stimuli. In the dream, the brain uses your "memory" (I'm using that word vastly here). The way it's possible to have external stimuli enter a dream, it's possible to have "memory" enter waking experience. That's hallucination. Dreaming when awake is called hallucinating. And because you said this was irrelevant, it's because you think the hallucination is not extreme enough. it's only one item, not the whole dreamscape. But not even schizophrenia patients hallucinate 100% of their waking experience. It doesn't work because when awake, your brain uses external stimuli. Once you overcome all the external stimuli, your body will be sleeping.

Honestly, this conversation is scary because completely disconnecting yourself from reality during wakefulness is a debilitating experience that I would not seek too fervently. It happens to people against their will, and they get the same delusional thoughts that we have in dreams. And they get treatment for it because it prevents them from functioning socially and professionally. Sleep is the natural process that allows hallucinations to take 100% control of our perception. I encourage you to take that route. Many have used drugs to recreate dreaming during wakefulness. Kudos to them. But I suggest you just use the legal, safe, and reliable way that is called sleep. It happens every single night. There is no rush. Enjoy the ride.

Maybe you still don't think that hallucination is relevant but it is. It's the word for dreaming when awake. And it's better avoided. It's only really useful to fill in gaps in your perception.

Anyways, that's my rant. I don't think anyone is being closed minded here. In fact, lots of the people in this conversation have proven to be quite open minded. I understand you are on a quest to uncover an out of the ordinary skill but this is what I encourage you to do:
- Play with daydreaming/visualization (maybe train for lucid dreaming with them). I have used them to create mental temples which I use to store memories and ideas.
- Learn to fall asleep quicker (healthy lifestyle, exercise, regular sleep schedule, I'm sure you can find much more advice for this)
- Master lucid dreaming
- Enjoy spending time with your dream guide (many don't believe in dream guides, but at least there's no harm done, except for perhaps a momentary loss of dream control).

I think this will satisfy all your needs for now.

@alij8000
We are not opposed to have dream like experiences while we are not asleep. We only oppose calling them dreams. Because you dream when you are asleep. You can have hallucinations, stong images when you are visualizing when you are awake. Everything has words that mean the same thing for everybody. It's that way so we can communicate and understand each other.

I don't understand why you insist on calling lucid dream like images that could happen outside of sleep "dreams". You can not imagine anything else happening that's not a dream? Dream by definition happens when we are asleep. Other images or phenomena that can happen when you are awake perhaps don't even have a name yet. They were not discovered.

I see images right now, yet I am not asleep. I see waking life images. They are different than dreams and hence they are NOT called dreams. Hallucinations are not called dreams either. HH are not called dreams. Many images and experiences exist and they are not called dreams. So what gives? Why do you want to "dream" when you are not asleep? Why don't you see that the lucid dream like experience that you would like to discover (or us discover it for you) could be of same quality or parameters as a dream. Except the name.

I thought that this is more like wisher's thread because he seemed to be pushing the same thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

@Ibeauty
the limbo,yes you can call it that,you could say im trying to achive an insta portal to limbo or whatever the lucid dreaming world we go to is without having to go trough sleep as a prequisite.

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We have a thread like this somewhere already. I've said this on another thread seem to be alike:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ibeauty

Like others have said, We are all dreamers.
Origins! Am the only person that I know in my family who can recall my dreams and who is an active natural lucid dreamer. However, just because I can do that, doesn't mean I see myself invincible and better than everyone else. I'm still learning new things here from even the beginners. ;) If I've too, have found my true Mindfulness and the Spiritual Potential of Humanity through lucid dreaming, I may never tell you.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

i will not lie,i've not had any LD's since my last one i think a few days ago,and not for the lack of trying,i think it might be my meditation thats preventing it,unfortunetly im not soppoused to be doing a certin meditation before bed if im to WILD but it auto-occur's and then i get insomnia,and when i get insomnia i can't WILD,which is how i LD 95% of the time.(this is the reason i want to find a way to bypass sleep as a prequisite in the first place,its the only barrier to infinite insta lucid dreaming for me)

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By the way, I hate to say this but, your grammar is still hard to read. When I'm trying to get my point across, I try to be as professional as I can. I know there are some programs out there that you can use to help make people understand what you are saying. ;)
Alij8000! Not seeing is believing? I have to ask, how do we know that you are not just posting this thread because you just simply don't know the difference between a lucid and non-lucid dream? Or at least that's what I feel like is going on here with your posts, somehow. This happens in other dream sites, you know? Where are you getting your information? Please tell us your credible sources because if not, it is really just your opinion and not actual fact. This would be critical to any discussion.

Quote:

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Alij8000! Not seeing is believing? I have to ask, how do we know that you are not just posting this thread because you just simply don't know the difference between a lucid and non-lucid dream? Or at least that's what I feel like is going on here with your posts, somehow. This happens in other dream sites, you know? Where are you getting your information? Please tell us your credible sources because if not, it is really just your opinion and not actual fact. This would be critical to any discussion.

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i can't belive im seriously being asked this,but if that actualy happend on other threads,i can tell you my first ever LD experiance,it happend around 3 weeks after i started doing isha kriya meditation,i had an unintended WILD,at first i didn't tell the diffrence i simply tought i had awoken,but in the mirror my face was blurred out,thats when i relized i was dreaming,i got too excited and i woke up and then i did some research and at first i tought it was astral projection but soon after i found it to be lucid dreaming.

@gab
i don't understand why r u being so tight about what to call something in the end if its just a name like you clearly seem to understand,why not give it rest???
is it so goddamn important to write a whole page for?!

@occipitalred
you've made my point for me as to why im not willing to settle for ''halucinations'' or ''simmilar experiances'' and am pushing this hard,in your experiance you said you would get scared of the spiders and what not,you would test them to see if their real or not and so on,
well thats it,thats exactly why,when your halucinating,your not fully concious of whats happening,you've no control over it,its scary it can destroy you and you can't stop it when you want to,what you described are all i'llness and diseases in my opinion,their not what i seek.

you described your experiances,now if you could work with me here for a second,imagine that i managed to find what im looking for,got what i wanted from this thread,assume,and this would be hypotheicaly my experiance :

''im in my house,i just woke up,its 10 o'c in the morning,its sunday i've no school or work for today,snow has run down heavy last night and all the roads are blocked,the door to the house is stuck the snow is blocking it from the outside,my family is on a trip im entirely alone,power is out,there is nothing to do,but it doesn't matter,i've got my brain with me,i sit on the coach,i get relaxed so as to not put any physical strain on my body,i close my eyes,everything is black,i see nothing,i decide to dream,i know im not asleep,but it doesn't matter,thats not a barrier for me anymore,the world forms around me,from the blackness itself,i see everything,im on top of a mountain,its run down by heavy thick snow,i've got a bunch of friends here,their all my DC's,got my spirit guide here too,hes making us some coffee,we sit near the campfire that i just started with a little bit of magic heat waves from my hands xD,and we just chill for a few hours,
i roughly know its been 3 hours since i closed my eyes first,im still chilling with my spirit guide drinkin some coffee,oh god that coffee was even better than real coffee,wish we had those in real life lol,as our coffee finishes i shake his warm hand pat him on the shoulder and bid him farewell,i close my eyes and i open them,im back on my chair,i've had a phenomenal experiance,even tough i had just woken up and couldn't have possibly had fallen asleep and had a WILD or a DILD.ofcourse it wouldn't have lasted this long if i coudn't have had a one any time i wanted since it took me a couple of hundred times finding out how exactly to stablize myself in the dream,and i did all that on the same day i found out how to have LD's on demand without having to sleep first :D,that sure limited my attempts to shit,indeed those two years i spent on that fourm tryin to make this happen were worth it,i wish i had made that thread sooner,to think someone actualy managed it!
shame i spent all that money on those video games and movies tough,their all useless junk now,bilions of dollar went into making those,i could just make one any time i wanted,wouldn't even have to be asleep to do it,POV real life style too!,wonder what'll happen to all those video game and movie companies tough,i mean once this shit hits the fan,people are gonna be out of jobs for sure...''

and thats just hypothetical,truth is we don't even know what else you can do with your LD's given you'd have acess to them at all times!
,now the question is my friend,can you share my vision?

Yes, alij8000, that's what I imagined you were trying to get at. And it would be quite an ideal skill. If you ever find out how, I want to know too. But in the case you described, you were indeed sleeping and you could have a similar experience if you had tried to WILD (except shorter I imagine)

You know, I have had many DILDs, but I don't think I have ever WILDed. It's hard for me. I find it hard to consciously fall asleep and into the REM phase. Hopefully one day, I will get there. I suggest you start there too. Because there's no way that thing you're trying to do is easier than WILDing. And if it's possible, I imagine it is easier for someone who has mastered WILDing. In fact, I think both are the same, just you are describing it as if it were super easy and conjurable at any moment and that sleep did not consist of cycles but rather was exclusively a REM phase.

This is what you want (so that everyone else understands):
1) To fall asleep at will.
2) Sleep is only REM phase

Those two goals are impossible to attain 100%. But perhaps you can improve both.
If you want 1), I suggest again that you look up ways to fall asleep faster.
If you want 2), just ask around, I actually don't know. But some people in this thread have experience with playing with their sleep cycles. Sageous for examples practices different types of sleep, like polyphasic sleep I think it's called. He can point to you to places where he talks about his experience. From what I understand, it's a process that takes a lot of time to get used to. That's the thing alij8000. Some people here have so much experience with sleep, that they can't see your goal being realistic because they have a profound understanding of how dreaming works. It takes some open mindedness to practice polyphasic sleep and some determination. People here are crossing the boundaries of what is normal.

What you describing however is just a great idealistic fantasy. I understand it. Because I think that would be awesome and make life so much easier.

That would be fantastic if it was possible but it's not unless you take some special drugs (that will make you have 100% hallucination but will probably kill any sense of lucidity) or suffer from serious mental disease or sleep disorder.
Still, to lucid dream you have to dream and to dream you have to be asleep.
There is no need to argue during pages, except turning this thread into a trolling story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

i can't believe I'm seriously being asked this,but if that actually happened on other threads,i can tell you my first ever LD experience, it happened around 3 weeks after i started doing isha kriya meditation,i had an unintended WILD,at first i didn't tell the difference i simply thought i had awoken,but in the mirror my face was blurred out,that's when i realized i was dreaming,i got too excited and i woke up and then i did some research and at first i thought it was astral projection but soon after i found it to be lucid dreaming.

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Seriously, do we have to ask? :(
Okay? I've never had to do kriya meditation to achieve a dream. It could be the same with you. You could've been just ready to wild. I think you are now just pushing yourself too hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

What you describing, however, is just a great idealistic fantasy. I understand it. Because I think that would be awesome and make life so much easier.

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Yes, that would be very cool. I understand that too but, to be honest, my dreaming and recall are a bit more on demand than what you are telling us here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ibeauty

Yes, that would be very cool. I understand that too but, to be honest, my dreaming and recall are a bit more on demand than what you are telling us here.

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Ibeauty, can you expand? I am a little bit confused about the comment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Ibeauty, can you expand? I am a little bit confused about the comment.

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I'm a natural lucid dreamer. It does not take much to dream but, I sleep. I'm trying to see things from both sides here but, it's hard to when feels like we are still missing information.
Here's what I found in Gopi Krishna's book (Please giving more information) There are hidden problems this:

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"With the awakening of kundalini, the arrangement suffers a radical alteration affecting the entire nervous system, .. in most cases it results in a great instability of the emotional nature and a great liability to aberrant mental conditions in the subject, mainly resulting from tainted Heredity, faulty modes of conduct, or immoderation in any shape or forum.
Leaving out the extreme cases, which end in madness, this generalization applies to all categories of those in whom kundalini is congenitally more or less active, comprising mystics, mediums, men and women of genius, and those of an exceptionally high intellectual or artistic Development. In the case of those in whom the awakening occurs all at once as the result of yoga or other spiritual practices, the sudden impact or powerful vital currents in the brain and other organs is often attended with serious risk and strange mental conditions, varying from moment To moment, exhibiting in the beginning the abnormal peculiarities of a medium, mystic, genius, and madman all rolled into one. "

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What do you think? Guys? If it could work that would be cool but, there are side effects, apparently? Please alij8000 enlighten me. I could be wrong.

^ Got it.

@occipitalred
Thank you for the reply my friend.
unfortunetly im being misinterpreted again here,no i did not wish to achive insta-sleep or rem only sleep on demand,if you read carefully the example i wrote of how it would be,at no point in it did i have any intention of falling asleep,i bypassed sleep entirely,both realities were happening,in one i was inside a lucid dream,and in the other i was awake,relaxed,with my eyes closed,when you close your eyes 60% of your brain funcinality moves elsewhere (or at least thats what my guru says xD) wherever your attention resides,in this case it could be a lucid dream,and im sure 60% of my brain activity is more than enough to maintain a lucid dream experiance,
However,
what you suggest would work as well,insta-sleep and rem only sleep would yield just about exactly the same results,in fact,i belive them to be the same thing as i would persue with very minor differences,
and you may be confused about something here,i never had much problem with WILDing or DILDing , ,i've don't usualy have a week without at least 2-3 5-10 min long LD's and like i said 95% are WILDs,its rarely ever happend.and its not why im persuing this.but thats personal stuff it has nothing to do with our discussion here :D.

ok so in your suggestions to me its implied that how you would appraoch this,or how you would advice me to approach this,is to practice making sleep easier,but your making a detour here which isn't necessary,here is how i see it and here is how i would see the suggestions that were given :

Practice/Research sleep --> sleep easier --> have lucid dreaming experiance easier

this has few (-) points and 1 potentialy (+) points :

1-it could '*potentialy* be more consistent,but from what we can see as you said sageous for example even tough going trough certin sleep cycle related practices has not found a way to LD on demand,that means that we've alredy explored this route,and its proved to be inconvinent and hasn't born any considreble fruits
2-this is not infinite
3-putting your body into sleep could potentialy be a limit to what you can do in the dream world,for example if your doing something super exciting if your dream world experiance is connected to your now sleeping body,your heart rate my rise and you may wake up and lose the experiance,as opposed to having an alredy woke body that is limitless in its simontanious experiance,
4-you'd have to be in a certin metabolism to control your body the way you want so that you can then put it into a sleeping state,for example if your body is high in temperture,you will find it extreamly difficult to sleep,so your basically fighting against lots of physical odds here as opposed to bypassing them completely.



here is my version of your suggestion for you

find alternate on demand replacement for sleep --> have lucid dreaming experiance

only diffrence is,my version of it has three (+) points and one (-) point to it :

1-its infinite
2-its outside the box,and so it might not require a lot of time,practice,or etc,you might start trying to find a way and find a way from inside the dream by asking your dream guide or experimenting yourself this very day,and might even find it in the first try,how do you know if you've not tried before ?
3-its inconsistent,it will eighter work or not you'll never know if your getting somewhere or not
4-it would make more sense that if you want to find a way into something,it would be easier to do it from inside than outside
for example if your in a whole,you will very very easily see the light and find the entry to the hole,but if you were outside,it would be much harder to find a hole! (do your research in the dreaming world instead of the waking world)

@Ibeauty
thank you for the reply
'' to be honest, my dreaming and recall are a bit more on demand than what you are telling us here.'' is a very very bold thing to say,
does that mean that any time you wish you can just WILD regardless of wether your in REM or not and or wether your physically tired or relaxed enough to WILD? because if i could do that i would never spend any time on any fourms thats for sure. (not to mention thats what were all here trying to achive!)

on your second point,im not sure what your refering to when you say theres not enough information,on what exactly? because you followed it up with kundalini awakening possibly relating to my kundalini awakening which again has nothing to do with why i made this thread or what the purpose of this thread essentialy is,
yes i've gone trough kundalini awakening for the most part,yes it has side effects,yes insomnia is part of it,yes i've had problems WILDing because of it,but keep in my mind all these are temporary stuff,the side effects are not as severe as in your described article makes it to be,well as long as it doesn't happen to you without you being concious of it which was my case,i had the opposite of diarhea not sure what its called,my body would reject junk food,my hair loss stopped contrarary to what articles say would happen,i became aware of sensations other than pain which i became greately unaware of,my pupils dilated,and i was litteraly the exact same as when on marijuana for some 3 days in a row non-stop but i was fully aware and concious of my sorroundings as opposed to what happens when you consume drugs.
but again i don't see how this is relevant,as i said this has nothing to do with me having trouble lucid dreaming,you see if i wanted to have 2 LD's each day i could easily do two WILD's each day one with WBTB and one trough regular napping if i set myself up for it,and all it would take me would be to have protein only or vegan meals 2 meals a day and only do my medtation practices in the morning after having had the LD's so that it would not interfere with my sleep cycles,
i've actualy done this before,and had a period of having 2-3 WILD's and sometimes even 4 WILD's each day for 41 days (it just happend to be 41 days its not a special cycle or sth),i've had some 120 sucsessfull LD's (those that were stable and were prolonged and not just 30 second fails) and i have no problem LD'ing,

i made this thread so that i could LD infinetly at any situation at the spark of my will,
this doesn't mean im doing it because i can't normaly LD,i very much can,
i don't know how else i could clear this up...

finaly i might have gotten confused and wrote some unnecessary things about myself,please forgive me if thats the case(and skip *x* ) ,but i don't think kundalini awakening has anything to do with what were trying to achive here...or at least i find no connection for it.

*x* this kind of misunderstanding is not your fault by any means,its not mine eighter,i wanted to delete this thread and make a new one and i did make a new one with a clarified goal so as to not cause confusion,however the admin merged it,which was a bad idea,as i had miserebly failed to get trough to you what i actualy meant to achive by this thread in the initial thread.

Take a look to Claude rifat's researches.
What he speaks about, especially the controlled hallucinations part, is the closest thing I can see from what you are looking for.

@kaan
ok,thx for your suggestion

update :
from what i read on articles its called ''concious dreaming'' but its refered to as ''astral projection'' by the ones writing the articles about it,i haven't done enough research to know anything about it but im going to try it very soon,tommorrow night when i don't have an exam the day after,
and from what i could gather from the experiances induced by his ''concious dreaming'' technique,its not astral projection,i've had astral projections on more than one occasion and i can tell by reading the experiances that its not that,
also this technique is one of the 100 vigyan bhairav gita techniques that are considered to be the root of all meditations and or spiritual practices , there is also a lucid dreaming technique in the bhairav gita ,its called the intengible breath,and i've done it and it actualy works and is a tottaly commendeble lucid dreaming technique,
i just never tought that what the gita said could actualy considered in the way that claude rifat excercises it,im wow'ed and i will share my experiance of this with you as soon as i have it,im confident it will work,but im not sure what to expect :D.

altough even if this does indeed work,its by no means infinite,altough it bypasses sleep,you still need to be in rem for this.
BUT,its a start,and its a great one,and im gratefull you mentioned it :D!!! thank you!
btw have you done it yourself?

^ I like that Kaan
Abbott and Costello?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

(or at least thats what my guru says xD)

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Is this your Dream Character? What does he say about being in pain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

*x* this kind of misunderstanding is not your fault by any means, its not mine either,i wanted to delete this thread and make a new one and i did make a new one with a clarified goal so as to not cause confusion,however the admin merged it,which was a bad idea,as i had miserably failed to get trough to you what i actually meant to achieve by this thread in the initial thread.

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♪♫Either/ Neither. Let's call the whole things off!!♪♫
I would PM an admin to see if you can work that out. ;) If I were you, I would advise you to open up a DJ or a workbook and keep records there and then I would just work on personal goals there too. So, at least you are doing your own thing and such instead of confusing members by a topic that sounded like you are recruiting members for whatever reason, Just saying. (IMO)

I read claude rifa's writings about two decades ago. Claude has passed away since but I guess you can still find most of his work.
what is a bit weird is that part of his work is in English, part is in French. the guy made some serious research about how the brain creates and modify "hallucinations" during dreams, and also played a lot with some hallucinogen molecules to study their effects.

I started to train to have controlled hallucinations but never really got the hang of it and gave up.
Also, at that time I was sometimes suffering from hypnopompic hallucinations, and those were coming more frequently when I was trying to "Astral Travel" which involved the same kind of techniques (I don't believe anymore that AT are anything than a certain type of LD, but anyway).
I think that trying to trigger hallucinations is dangerous cause I guess it can turns into (or reveal) skysophrenia troubles, or other mental diseases, so I'm glad I didn't push it too much.

Claude Rifat didn't speak about OBE or AT, at least in my memory, you should only refer to what he wrote rather than to what it is said on forums about his work, at least as a first step.
Claude de Contrecoeur: article index

A technique is developed here: Méthode d'induction d'hallucinations contrôlées
there was another guy that developed a technique for controlled hallucinations, Claude spoke about it but I can't remember his name.

@Ibeauty
im pretty sure your still confused why i made this thread :D,i don't blame you ,i sure messed it up quite good,but i think i've alredy gotten what i've wanted from this thread mostly,all i really wanted was to get this idea into peoples brains who have more experiance than me LD'ing,
that its possible,and i wanted to intice people to try to achive what i was originaly looking for,so that if i couldn't get there,others with more experiance would eventualy get there before me and i could basically copy what they've achived :).
in other words,matter of fact i am trying to ''recruit'' people,in a sense,yes that would be correct to say.
but in the process i got my hands on your valuble knowledge as well,which is great,superb in fact,i wasn't actualy hoping to!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaan

I read claude rifa's writings about two decades ago. Claude has passed away since but I guess you can still find most of his work.

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Kaan thank you for pointing us in that direction. :D Hopefully it is a step forward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alij8000

@Ibeauty
I'm pretty sure your still confused why I made this thread :D

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On the contrary! What I said was simply a suggestion.

so i tried to try the technique but i got creative and screwed it up midway,trying again tonight :/