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Does Melatonin, 5HTP, Galantamine, Huperzine-A, DHEA, Vitamin B6, etc... REALLY work for Lucid Dreaming?
Do they REALLY work?
Which one's are the best?
Any others that might also help?
Opinions please?
What is your DIRECT experience?
Thanks in advance,
TG
Yes, they work. But everyone's physiobiology is different, every's sleep and dreaming is different, so you have to find out for yourself.
When experimenting, always start out with one supplement at a time before combining, and low doses slowly increasing. I also recommend a good book like Yuschak's "Advanced Lucid Dreaming, the Power of Supplements" that talk about dosing and the timing of particular stacks (combinations).
My direct experience:
1) melatonin makes me drowsy at bed-time, and suppresses early REM, so suppresses early to mid night dreaming. Usually results in more intense dreaming in the later morning, but with the more deeper sleep earlier in the night, sometimes can cause middle of the night insomnia once it wears off. I take from 1mg (low) to 3mg (high) at bedtime. I've never tried taking more (well maybe 5mg once, don't recall the results). Take it at bed time. Taking it in the middle of the night might screw up your sleep rhythms, and for me causes a "hungover" feeling in the morning.
2) 5HTP made me feel quite odd and unpleasant, so I stopped taking it.
3) Galantamine is golden. When combined with choline(s) at WBTB time, and a REM suppressor like melatonin at bedtime, it leads to the most amazing dreaming, if you can get back to sleep.
Yuschak recommends taking two cholines: one fast acting (cdp choline?), and one slower acting (Alpha GPC), to cover more of the active galantamine period. I take 4mg galantamine, some people take 8mg. I only rarely can get back to sleep after taking galantamine. It works by essentially producing a more awake brain, so that figures. Others have no issues falling back asleep. When I've gotten back to sleep on galantamine, I've *always* gotten lucid, and always had super-ultra vivid dreams.
4) I've never had much results with Huperzine-A, I've tried it a few times.
5) B-6 -- it depends. It can mess with your sleep. Whether or not it has an effect is probably dependent on how much you are deficient in it. Other minerals like zinc and magnesium also are said to have an effect, but again you may only notice a big difference if you are deficient in these. Taking a beefy multivitamin (meaning one that has a lot of vitamins covered at modertate - high doses) every day certainly helps dreaming, I think.
DHEA: just starting to try it, no idea yet.
Mugwort: didn't do much, but I already have pretty high and vivid dream recall. It may help if you don't.
Wormwood: a real hallucinogen, I felt very altered taking it, like I was high. Very strange dreams. Gave me uncomfortable heart palpitations so I stopped it. Problem with it is you don't know how much thujone you're getting from any particular source.
Overall opinion: nothing takes the place of a solid day and night practice, and building high daytime lucidity & awareness & critical reflection. These are always with you. Taking supplements can help if you need a boost, or just want a bit of extra fun, or are deficient in some mineral or another. But the best way to be lucid at night is to be lucid during the day.
I'm going to make a big confession here, at the risk of losing respect from my fellow dreamers. I use galantamine on the weekends. Mostly because work makes it so hard to practice. However, I also just love it. It works like a charm; makes me WILD. I take it with choline, like FryingMan suggested. Also, B6 is amazing as well, on its own or combined with the galantamine.
I have not had any side effects yet, and I try to only use it once a week to prevent tolerance building.
I used to get too afraid, because it makes me WILD (which is a often uncomfortable). So afraid that I couldn't go back to sleep. However, I've been getting braver and not having so much of a problem anymore.
Good luck!!
Sheesh what a cheater ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream
Yep. I am... And you know what's funny? I was thinking about making a Confessions thread just so I could clear my damn conscience. lol! Glad the opportunity to come clean came naturally.Quote:
Originally Posted by michael79
Still. I freaking love Galantamine.
9/29/20 I tried B6, Melatonin, and 5HTP (What I had lying around already) and it knocked me out. I did wake up 5-6 hours later and did WILD/MILD technique and achieved SP, Hypnogogic, mini-movies, flashes, images, colors. All slightly longer and more discernable than previous sessions. Experienced partial "Floating", but did not achieve separation. Also did meditation and self-hypnosis for relaxation, dream recall, and RC.
It's good to point out about not taking galantamine (or any supplement, probably) too often. Yuschak also discusses this (his book is highly recommended for those who use supplements) (I think he recommends not more frequently than once every 4 days). Ultimately, it's all about the experience, so if it helps have the experiences we desire, why not, I say....Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream
I probably have more to say about this than I am willing to do, since I have tried more than one hundred different things over several years (mostly to improve sleep quality). But right now I'll just add my voice with a few remarks:
- Yes, supplements do work!
- As Fryingman pointed out, Galantamine makes it difficult to sleep. I guess it would be easier to sleep while someone drills holes in your head with a powertool
- The combination of 100 mg Caffeine and 200 mg L-Theanine, while being quite ordinary and boring, actually has a very high chance of success, if taken at WBTB time
- Guayusa also works quite well (it contains Caffeine and Theanine ...)
- High strength Green tea extract with Theanine again, also tends to work
- MSM creates the most hyper realistic dreams imaginable. But they tend to not be lucid
- Choline sources enhance dreams
- Fish oil before bedtime is GREAT for generating disturbing dreams involving zombies and too easily detachable limbs.
What are your favorites for sleep quality? If only I could get back to sleep quickly and consistently after wakings after 4 hrs, I'd be dreaming up a storm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldmer
Since I'm so caffeine sensitive and subject to middle of the night insomnia, I'd be very concerned about any caffeine...but I've heard that it does work well, I guess for those who tend to zonk out back to sleep immediately.
You can try melatonin prolonged release capsules 3mg or 5mg, they also can contain other things inside for better sleep quality. This way melatonin will hold not 4 hours but 8 hours instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Any particular maker recommendations? Usually when the regular melatonin wears off I have an even harder time returning to sleep than when I don't take melatonin at all. I can almost always sleep the first 4 hours of the night fine on my own.Quote:
Originally Posted by michael79
I don't know any particular brands, as I was never shopping at Amazon. So you will need to experiment a little. Yes melatonin works only four hour and then run out of your system, but with extended tablets/capsules it gives melatonin the entire night. I tried all kinds of melatonin before the extended version and worked poorly, but the extended version was on totally another level, it was super strong and was making my dreams super intense on second part of the night. Of course I was taking others things too especially for lucidity, like 200mg L-theanine with 50mg caffeine and 200mg Lemon Balm (natural GABA inducer and muscle relaxant). This combination was making my Wild and Vild attempts much easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
As alternative you can try combination of Valerian root extract and lemon balm leaf extract with proportion 2:1 (320mg Valerian/160 mg Lemon balm), it gives a lot of crazy dreams.
Another alternative is Passion Flower extract, good night sleep with more crazy dreams.
Or St. john's wort and chamomile tea, this thing kicks like a horse.
In the middle of the night or before sleep you can make yourself a tea of Lemon balm, chamomile and pepper mint for vivid dreams and easy wilds.
And of course a 25mg vit B6 before sleep with either combination will give more vivid and stable dreams.
Good Luck on your experiments :D
Right, this could take some time, but let's do this! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Actually, on second thought, I'll try to limit myself here.
The first thing I would say is that I'm very conscious of avoiding building up tolerance, so I virtually never use anything two nights in a row.*
My second point would be that I believe sleep issues vary widely from one person to the next, so what works wonders for one person may make matters worse for another. Generally, I subscribe to the idea that our bodies need just the right mix of various things in order to function at their best, and where some may be deficient in one thing, others may be deficient in something entirely different, or they may have too much of something, and therefore finding the perfect supplement (or procedure) for improving sleep may involve a lot of personal experimentation.
These general remarks out of the way, what works best for me are the following:
TMG (trimethylglycine): 500 mg of this before bedtime will give me four hours of undisturbed sleep. After that, I get into tossing and turning, which is my normal mode of sleep all night (if not taking anything).
Psyllium husks (1 tsp. soaked in water): For others this gets their digestion going. For me, it enhances sleep quality. I can use this on its own, or in combination with something else.
L-Taurine: 500 mg before bedtime, and I will toss and turn like usual, but I will fall asleep again much quicker after each awakening. When you wake up dozens of time during the night, this is very useful.
Passion flower extract, Valerian, Bacopa Monnieri extract, Ashwagandha extract: These will deepen my sleep, and enhance dreaming. But the tossing and turning will be unaffected.
Melatonin: 0.3 mg (yes, the regular dosages well above that are really too much) will make me very sleepy, and I will be very unconscious for the first several hours. Unfortunately, the sleep is not at all restful.
Blue lotus: Very relaxing, and improves probability of astral projection. I use it very rarely, however.
Agmatine Sulfate (250 mg): Better sleep quality, and enhanced dreaming.
Oleamide (50-70 mg): Clearly deeper sleep.
Phenibut (around 300 mg): Deep sleep that is very conducive for lucid dreaming and astral projection. Is notorious for building up tolerance fast (I NEVER use this more than every five days, and generally much more rarely than that).
Warm milk with honey: Clearly more restful sleep.
The scent of orange blossom (Neroli): Much deeper sleep than normal.
Yoga Nidra: makes me fall asleep quite fast (which it really is not intended to do).
I have tried many others, and occasionally use them, but these are the ones I keep returning to.
*Lately I've been trying out Agmatine Sulfate, and that has been every night for several days at a stretch. Due to many reports by others, I have been assumning that tolerance would not build. So far, tolerance has not built.
Yes it works, in my case Melatonin works well for me
Huperzine A makes me dream longer and makes it easier to recall my dream which is fun. I'm not sure if it necessarily makes me that much more lucid but could help some I'm sure as it seems to just magnify the dreaming aspect all around.
Melatonin doesn't really seem to affect my dreaming but does help me sleep.
Hey what's the rationale behind not taking it too often?Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
If you take it more often you might become less sensitive to it and it wont work as good as in the begining. Moderation is the key.
I will add/correct one of the above posts, that cdp choline is slower type of choline - choline salts (ex. bitartrate) are faster.
Not only desensitization, but with overuse you may risk altering your brain chemistry, perhaps permanently, which is not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidreaman
I assume you do some sort of specific technique along with it (in order to achieve WILD)?Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream
With Galantamine? Just a WBTB. That's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasdevig
So you just stay up for a bit (how long, btw?) and then just go back to bed? And that's it? No mantra or anything? And it makes you have a WILD?Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream
Yes, with 8 mg of galantamine. WBTB 1-2 hours. The falling asleep process is conscious. It doesn't produce a WILD every time, but it often does.Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasdevig
With 4 mg I usually get a string of DILDs.
Tolerance seems to build up quick. It would only work about once a week max for me.
Good luck. I prefer natural methods over galantamine these days, because I find that natural lucid dreams are much more stable and long (and for health reasons - who knows if it's safe and healthy to use like this). When you use galantamine, your lucid dreams will often be short and unstable. So you will usually have a sequence of going in and out of short lucid dreams. I wonder if this is because the brain is unnaturally almost awake, so you're straddling that boundary of waking and sleeping constantly. Whereas in a natural lucid dream, your brain may be more asleep. This problem with galantamine is especially true if you're practice is not up to snuff, or so I find.
However, it can also produce amazing lucid dreams (if your practice is also good), and it is a lot of fun once in a while. :)
Now I remembered one distinct feature of (my) galantamine-induced dreams. I often found myself "falling out of bed" after rolling over - and then I had to get up from the floor which was quite often a real struggle. :-)
Thanks for the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream
"The falling asleep process is conscious."
But you don't do anything to make it conscious? It just becomes conscious without you trying to achieve that?
"and for health reasons - who knows if it's safe and healthy to use like this"
Yeah I'm scared of using drugs. I've always been a bit paranoid about drugs.
I figure that trying these drugs might help. It might help to have some experiences under my belt. And that that could help give me the motivation juice to keep going and keep on keeping on to make it (through the natural route). So hopefully I won't need it eventually.
Interesting. Sounds like a case of very light and 'wake-induced' (going straight from waking to dreaming) sleep/dreaming. And a great dream sign, I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidreaman
You're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasdevig
Nope. Just lay there and let it happen. I mean, you want basic experience with WILDs. Like, embrace any discomfort, vibrations, etc. that come up. Be gentle when entering the dream. Stabilize your dream right away. Etc.
It's definitely great for motivation. :) It's also great if you have a fear blockage preventing you from achieving WILDs. It kind of forces you to face those.Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasdevig
In my cases it was never clear wake-induced dreaming when I you enter dream straight while keeping the awareness. But still, I realised it is a dream from the very begining withour need to RC.Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasdevig
(I experienced only one full WILD with uninterrupted awareness (that time it was without any chemical support) and it was simply AMAZING experience.)
Took some vitamin B6 last night. Can't believe it actually worked. Nothing ever works for me. I'm immune to everything, you know? Can't believe it actually gave me a LD, without even doing a WBTB. I feel motivated now.
I wish there something completely safe, that could be taken every night. But oh well.
About B6 specifically, you may be interested in reading this thing I posted, almost exactly a year ago, actually:Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasdevig
https://www.dreamviews.com/attaining...ml#post2241558
Also, it's worth reading the comments others made too.
Although that thread is about melatonin, my main point at the end of the day will probably be that most things can be "safe" if used within reason and if you take care to try and understand what the implications may be when taking something.
On that note, I am actually still taking B6 occasionally, not very frequently at all now - I mostly use it when my dream recall is being somewhat difficult to retain right after waking, and recently that's stopped being a problem again anyway. I think the last time I took a B type vitamin was early January, and it was infrequent at that time anyway.
Nothing is truly safe, no, the same is true of prescription medication and even things people eat commonly; it seems to me that long-term consumption, deliberate abuse, or over-dependence, are the things that tend to be an issue whenever consumption of something is what's at stake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilary
Galantamine is the only way I've ever achieved WILDs. It's super fun cause most of the time there isn't even a noticeable transition, the dream just sorta forms around me out of the darkness of my closed eyelids, often I find myself falling through a night sky like I dropped through my bed or something but with no rollercoaster stomach drop sensation