Lucidity vs Cohesiveness

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11-20-2021, 06:25 PM
Occipitalred

Lucidity vs Cohesiveness

In my dream, I was engaged in a convoluted domestic conspiracy drama. I realized I tend to rewind certain parts of the dream when I feel the scene hasn't progressed as it should, and I reflected on the level of lucidity required to do that, and I thought how this lucidity and the control I have over rewinding the dream are not equivalent to lucid dreams I count as lucid dreams. I wondered if people I know in waking life who say they lucid dream constantly are talking about that kind of passive lucidity which I am exhibiting now, because despite it all, I consciously fail to think about the task of the year and instead go back to the conspiracy drama, the lucidity completely gone, except that conscious entity busied with understanding the drama. My mind is present watching my conversation with the mother. "Oh no, she's in on it." Now, I view the son downstairs with his swords and anger. "He is impulsive, on the bad side" Many characters merge towards me, in particular the son. "Impulsive + angry = immediate confrontation" but no, we welcome each other warmly, the scene half hidden behind doorways and walls. "What?" We are now enjoying a bath in an underground spa. "Oh, this must be the twin brother with whom I have bonded earlier in the dream" and so on.

And this is what my mind was busy doing: making sense of the nonsense. Rewinding when I fail to make sense, continuing if I can explain the unexpected twist. Even my mind realized, I must understand on some level I am dreaming to be able to interact with my experience in such a way... yet, still failing to become lucid...

I write down this dream here to remind myself of this behaviour I have. Today, I'm thinking it's hurting my lucidity although I'm not definitively sure. I think maybe my need for a cohesive story, that need to feel like I understand my experience, that need for sense, order, control... It captures my mind's attention so completely. It keeps me in the non-lucid dream, trying to fix every plot hole. But dreams are not movies. It's normal that they don't make sense. At the end, there were no definitive set of characters in this dream with definitive intentions. There was no foundation for a real conspiracy story. Just ideas of "good guys" vs "bad guys", "manipulation", "betrayal", "revenge"...

Am I wasting my dream time, trying to dream cohesive stories?

If yes, what should I do? I'm thinking, in my next visualizations of lucid dreaming, I will practice inhabiting non-cohesive stories and guiding my way not with cohesiveness but with lucidity (this is in my mind). Can I even fight this impulse? We'll see...
11-21-2021, 07:23 PM
DarkestDarkness

A waste of time could be a subjective thing. You are entertaining the idea that this may be a waste of dream time, why exactly? Because it feels counterproductive against specific goals that you could be working towards with lucidity, perhaps? And does a cohesive story necessarily imply that you can make sense of it, anyway?

Without being in your head, it sounds like part of your dream mind could be purposefully antagonising "you" in this sense and on the other hand, it may be that this impulse to try and make sense of things is really important to the character of "you" as a person. At a guess, it seems like it's making you get lost in this "nonsense", and a part of you effectively wants to resist this by forcing it to replay until it does make sense. So which attitude should be right? Sometimes waking life doesn't make sense either, and perhaps you could learn to feel and go about things differently, if you feel you're stuck in a set way, though sometimes just letting everything run amuck isn't any better either.

You could go about it differently by say, setting a certain attitude toward the perceived issue here and effectively incubating a behaviour different from your present one, maybe to spend less time forcing yourself to make sense of things during these dreams. The sense can come afterwards, once you've absorbed everything in whatever random nonsense way that it plays out as... You can get lost and still find your way to where you wanted to go.

In regards to visualisations, have you been doing anything such as active imagination or the like? My reason for asking is that such things probably would be a good vehicle to explore your issue in this regard, since by default you have to start from a state of consciousness anyway, and let the unconscious arise, much as with any meditative practise to some extent. In my sessions, I rarely have an absolute control over anything. When I have an impulse to try and control something, I try it a couple of times, but if it doesn't work, then I know to let things continue as they are; after all, that's part of what makes those experiences interesting in the first place for me. You could potentially practise "letting go" of the impulse in this way, if that's what you want.

Edit: And an additional thought, I am not certain that an impulse to make sense of things and to have cohesive narratives would be what's at the core of impacting your ability to attain lucidity. By contrast, my dreams are often devoid of attempts of understanding things and that's likely not the central aspect of my inability to attain lucidity frequently; it seems more likely to me that it has to do with the flow and focus. In your case or mine, we're literally engaged with a very specific aspect of the dream in some way, and how we break out of that flow is probably more important than the fact that it's specifically about a certain aspect, since in either case we are essentially at opposite extremes. When I've lost lucidity in past lucid dreams, it's often been because I became too re-engaged with (trivial) aspects of the dream once again.
11-22-2021, 06:47 AM
Occipitalred

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

A waste of time could be a subjective thing. You are entertaining the idea that this may be a waste of dream time, why exactly? Because it feels counterproductive against specific goals that you could be working towards with lucidity, perhaps? And does a cohesive story necessarily imply that you can make sense of it, anyway?

A waste of time, because I am looking for cohesiveness or sense or clarity where there is none, while instead I could be doing something more meaningful, whether it be looking for clarity where there is clarity, or accomplish a predetermined goal, yes.

Interesting thought, yes. Cohesive and sensical are not exactly the same thing. But I'm using those words loosely. I'm just reflecting. It's not clear to me, and I can't say for sure how true what I am saying is. Maybe I am not truly trying to make sense or find cohesiveness. In any case, I am narrating an explanation over the dream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

Without being in your head, it sounds like part of your dream mind could be purposefully antagonising "you" in this sense and on the other hand, it may be that this impulse to try and make sense of things is really important to the character of "you" as a person. At a guess, it seems like it's making you get lost in this "nonsense", and a part of you effectively wants to resist this by forcing it to replay until it does make sense. So which attitude should be right? Sometimes waking life doesn't make sense either, and perhaps you could learn to feel and go about things differently, if you feel you're stuck in a set way, though sometimes just letting everything run amuck isn't any better either.

Interesting. I like these thoughts. I am more likely to think that my dream's inherent nature are nonsensical than that they structure themselves this way specifically to challenge my desire for cohesiveness. Regardless, it is interesting to still perceive this pattern as an invitation to let go of making sense of things that don't make sense in waking life in some instances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

You could go about it differently by say, setting a certain attitude toward the perceived issue here and effectively incubating a behaviour different from your present one, maybe to spend less time forcing yourself to make sense of things during these dreams. The sense can come afterwards, once you've absorbed everything in whatever random nonsense way that it plays out as... You can get lost and still find your way to where you wanted to go.

This reminds me of Robert Moss in Dreamgates, about setting our inner sceptic aside during dream, and only checking in after the dream (or other spiritual experience).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

In regards to visualisations, have you been doing anything such as active imagination or the like? My reason for asking is that such things probably would be a good vehicle to explore your issue in this regard, since by default you have to start from a state of consciousness anyway, and let the unconscious arise, much as with any meditative practise to some extent. In my sessions, I rarely have an absolute control over anything. When I have an impulse to try and control something, I try it a couple of times, but if it doesn't work, then I know to let things continue as they are; after all, that's part of what makes those experiences interesting in the first place for me. You could potentially practise "letting go" of the impulse in this way, if that's what you want.

Yes, I'm a big fan of active imagination for such purposes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

Edit: And an additional thought, I am not certain that an impulse to make sense of things and to have cohesive narratives would be what's at the core of impacting your ability to attain lucidity. By contrast, my dreams are often devoid of attempts of understanding things and that's likely not the central aspect of my inability to attain lucidity frequently; it seems more likely to me that it has to do with the flow and focus. In your case or mine, we're literally engaged with a very specific aspect of the dream in some way, and how we break out of that flow is probably more important than the fact that it's specifically about a certain aspect, since in either case we are essentially at opposite extremes. When I've lost lucidity in past lucid dreams, it's often been because I became too re-engaged with (trivial) aspects of the dream once again.

Hmm. Interesting once again. You've given me lots to think about, thank you Darkest Darkness. I like that thought about the flow and focus. Like swimming and breathing for air. When we teach swimming, it's called rhythm, if I remember. It seems to me that beyond a reality check, it would be interesting to live with this rhythm of flow and focus. Of engagement and then self-awareness.