Thread: Lucidity vs Cohesiveness

A waste of time could be a subjective thing. You are entertaining the idea that this may be a waste of dream time, why exactly? Because it feels counterproductive against specific goals that you could be working towards with lucidity, perhaps? And does a cohesive story necessarily imply that you can make sense of it, anyway?

Without being in your head, it sounds like part of your dream mind could be purposefully antagonising "you" in this sense and on the other hand, it may be that this impulse to try and make sense of things is really important to the character of "you" as a person. At a guess, it seems like it's making you get lost in this "nonsense", and a part of you effectively wants to resist this by forcing it to replay until it does make sense. So which attitude should be right? Sometimes waking life doesn't make sense either, and perhaps you could learn to feel and go about things differently, if you feel you're stuck in a set way, though sometimes just letting everything run amuck isn't any better either.

You could go about it differently by say, setting a certain attitude toward the perceived issue here and effectively incubating a behaviour different from your present one, maybe to spend less time forcing yourself to make sense of things during these dreams. The sense can come afterwards, once you've absorbed everything in whatever random nonsense way that it plays out as... You can get lost and still find your way to where you wanted to go.

In regards to visualisations, have you been doing anything such as active imagination or the like? My reason for asking is that such things probably would be a good vehicle to explore your issue in this regard, since by default you have to start from a state of consciousness anyway, and let the unconscious arise, much as with any meditative practise to some extent. In my sessions, I rarely have an absolute control over anything. When I have an impulse to try and control something, I try it a couple of times, but if it doesn't work, then I know to let things continue as they are; after all, that's part of what makes those experiences interesting in the first place for me. You could potentially practise "letting go" of the impulse in this way, if that's what you want.

Edit: And an additional thought, I am not certain that an impulse to make sense of things and to have cohesive narratives would be what's at the core of impacting your ability to attain lucidity. By contrast, my dreams are often devoid of attempts of understanding things and that's likely not the central aspect of my inability to attain lucidity frequently; it seems more likely to me that it has to do with the flow and focus. In your case or mine, we're literally engaged with a very specific aspect of the dream in some way, and how we break out of that flow is probably more important than the fact that it's specifically about a certain aspect, since in either case we are essentially at opposite extremes. When I've lost lucidity in past lucid dreams, it's often been because I became too re-engaged with (trivial) aspects of the dream once again.

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

A waste of time could be a subjective thing. You are entertaining the idea that this may be a waste of dream time, why exactly? Because it feels counterproductive against specific goals that you could be working towards with lucidity, perhaps? And does a cohesive story necessarily imply that you can make sense of it, anyway?

A waste of time, because I am looking for cohesiveness or sense or clarity where there is none, while instead I could be doing something more meaningful, whether it be looking for clarity where there is clarity, or accomplish a predetermined goal, yes.

Interesting thought, yes. Cohesive and sensical are not exactly the same thing. But I'm using those words loosely. I'm just reflecting. It's not clear to me, and I can't say for sure how true what I am saying is. Maybe I am not truly trying to make sense or find cohesiveness. In any case, I am narrating an explanation over the dream.

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

Without being in your head, it sounds like part of your dream mind could be purposefully antagonising "you" in this sense and on the other hand, it may be that this impulse to try and make sense of things is really important to the character of "you" as a person. At a guess, it seems like it's making you get lost in this "nonsense", and a part of you effectively wants to resist this by forcing it to replay until it does make sense. So which attitude should be right? Sometimes waking life doesn't make sense either, and perhaps you could learn to feel and go about things differently, if you feel you're stuck in a set way, though sometimes just letting everything run amuck isn't any better either.

Interesting. I like these thoughts. I am more likely to think that my dream's inherent nature are nonsensical than that they structure themselves this way specifically to challenge my desire for cohesiveness. Regardless, it is interesting to still perceive this pattern as an invitation to let go of making sense of things that don't make sense in waking life in some instances.

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

You could go about it differently by say, setting a certain attitude toward the perceived issue here and effectively incubating a behaviour different from your present one, maybe to spend less time forcing yourself to make sense of things during these dreams. The sense can come afterwards, once you've absorbed everything in whatever random nonsense way that it plays out as... You can get lost and still find your way to where you wanted to go.

This reminds me of Robert Moss in Dreamgates, about setting our inner sceptic aside during dream, and only checking in after the dream (or other spiritual experience).

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

In regards to visualisations, have you been doing anything such as active imagination or the like? My reason for asking is that such things probably would be a good vehicle to explore your issue in this regard, since by default you have to start from a state of consciousness anyway, and let the unconscious arise, much as with any meditative practise to some extent. In my sessions, I rarely have an absolute control over anything. When I have an impulse to try and control something, I try it a couple of times, but if it doesn't work, then I know to let things continue as they are; after all, that's part of what makes those experiences interesting in the first place for me. You could potentially practise "letting go" of the impulse in this way, if that's what you want.

Yes, I'm a big fan of active imagination for such purposes!

Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

Edit: And an additional thought, I am not certain that an impulse to make sense of things and to have cohesive narratives would be what's at the core of impacting your ability to attain lucidity. By contrast, my dreams are often devoid of attempts of understanding things and that's likely not the central aspect of my inability to attain lucidity frequently; it seems more likely to me that it has to do with the flow and focus. In your case or mine, we're literally engaged with a very specific aspect of the dream in some way, and how we break out of that flow is probably more important than the fact that it's specifically about a certain aspect, since in either case we are essentially at opposite extremes. When I've lost lucidity in past lucid dreams, it's often been because I became too re-engaged with (trivial) aspects of the dream once again.

Hmm. Interesting once again. You've given me lots to think about, thank you Darkest Darkness. I like that thought about the flow and focus. Like swimming and breathing for air. When we teach swimming, it's called rhythm, if I remember. It seems to me that beyond a reality check, it would be interesting to live with this rhythm of flow and focus. Of engagement and then self-awareness.