Lucidity: Not All Its Cracked Up To Be?

I've been thinking alot lately on my lucid dreams, I've come to the conclusion that lucidity isn't as good as we all give it credit for.

The reason? think about some of the thing we talk about on a day-to-day basis here on the forum:

1) How to make your dream more vivid

2) How to extend your dreams

3) How to "ground" yourself in a dream

The reason I list these things is to show that lucid dreams aren't like real life, You can do one of two things in a lucid: 1) Fight to make it more like real life, or 2) do nothing but go with the flow
We're always fighting against ourselves to remain conscious, if we don't then we wont be ourselves, our minds will be diluted and we wont act ourselves at all. I've been getting lucid a long time now, I first thought: "It'll get easier to get conscious and have the dream stay normal" but it hasn't gotten easier, its gotten harder. I've gotten lucid so many times that I've begun to go with the flow of the dream. and that just sucks
But that's not even the problem, If I ever did decide to go against my subconscious it would be an endless battle. I would steadily have to do reality checks in order to keep true lucidity. If I was truly lucid I would have to avoid potentially scary situations (example: swimming deep in the ocean with a mermaid) Because these situations could easily turn incredibly bad if just for a second my faith in self failed (I'm making out with the mermaid when I think "she's dead" and suddenly she screams and theirs a stake in the back of her head, a battle ensues with me against a demonic beast)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying lucid dreaming sucks by any means. All I'm saying is that its not comparable to real life, If you ever decide "I want to be peter pan" or something similar (role-playing) it would be nothing like real life, your natural mental processes would kick in and you would actually become peter pan, (think about it, when your playing a video game do you steadily think: "I'm a person holding a controller"? of course not, that would ruin the fun of it. In the same way when lucid you don't want to steadily think "I'm (insert your name), and I'm in a dream right now", If you do falter and stop thinking "I'm me and I'm in a dream right now" you'll fall into the illusion and never come out till you wake up the next morning.

I don't know why I'm ranting about this, This post in all likelihood made no sense whatsoever. But I've been thinking about this alot lately. No matter how we think of them or work at them, our dreams will still be dreams, you cant get around that fact.

But there is hope.</span>
<span style="color:#FF0000">(this is gonna get really trippy and possibly not make any sense, be prepared)

The reason I say lucid dreams suck so much is because we&#39;ve been dreaming before they happen. And usually we dream after them. This makes it so our dreams are separate from our day to day lives.
If one day I see a commercial that says "go mountaineering in colorado, you&#39;ll love it" and I suddenly get an urge to mountaineer, chances are that that urge isn&#39;t going to still be around when I get lucid that night.

What I&#39;m proposing:

The way to counterbalance this effect and make lucid dreams one with our reality is to have them during the day and with no sleep beforehand (an afternoon WILD)
Of course this method has many problems:

1) you would have to get your body to go into REM first thing

2) It would take a long time to go into SP and REM, you would also have to find a way to pass quickly into those stages

3) The dreams likely wouldn&#39;t be super amazing once you got into them (very shaky and stuff)

But it has tons of advantages:

1) You would be more lucid than you could ever imagine

2) Your wants from that day would still be fresh in your mind

3) This method would be a true "virtual reality" experience, it would feel nothing like a dream, you wouldn&#39;t regard it as a dream in any way

4) you wouldn&#39;t forget the dream before you woke up

5) You could do it at a lunch-break and lets face it, that would just be awesome :P

etc etc etc

I know this post sounds like a "wouldn&#39;t that be nice if:" but its not. This is really a possibility. I&#39;ve seen nothing that says it isn&#39;t possible.

Anyway I&#39;m gonna start trying to do it.

suggestions?

I may end up deleting this topic entirely. It really feels like it was huge rant but I&#39;m too tired to go back and look. hope you had fun reading it.

Heh... "mountaineer." :biggrin:

That was the quickest reply I&#39;ve ever seen in my life :shock:

200 posts&#33;&#33;

:biggrin:

i kind of agree with you billybob... but i donno... it seems like when i read things by LaBerge he makes it seems like he can do whatever he wants at anytime he wants and actually believe its real. i donno dude... i&#39;ve been thinking too, but there&#39;s nothing i can do directly that im aware of so im just going along for the ride (not talking about LDing, im talking about dream research and tehcnology)

First of all, well from my point of view... Well I&#39;m just gonna have at what you said... everything I say is of course MY opinion... which means it really only matters to me... nevertheless... Also, my experience is somewhat limited, by my own admission, even still:

You say "1) Fight to make it more like real life, or 2) do nothing but go with the flow"
In the dream I had on August 1st, I pretty much did what I wished... Yeah I had to remind myself this was a dream every now and again... maybe once ever 3 minutes.

You say "But that&#39;s not even the problem, If I ever did decide to go against my subconscious it would be an endless battle. I would steadily have to do reality checks in order to keep true lucidity."
Steadily like... 100% of the time? I don&#39;t find that to be true... but again that&#39;s me.

You say "All I&#39;m saying is that its not comparable to real life"
Should it be? Well, maybe for some people it should be... I don&#39;t expect it to be comparable to real life... I mean, my reality is one thing... my dream world is another. In terms of the "realness" of it... yeah it&#39;s nice for it be as real as real life... I am completely unable to get across what I am trying to say here... bleh... words are often inadequate

You say "and I suddenly get an urge to mountaineer, chances are that that urge isn&#39;t going to still be around when I get lucid that night. "
I tend to agree, to accomplish anything in a dream that I decided I want to in real life, I have to set a serious intention... even then it can be forgotten. I find it hard to "decide what to do" once in the dream... but it works better if I decide before.

Oh and please don&#39;t let anything I said offend you, it&#39;s not my intention at all. I&#39;m sure your feelings are very valid for you and that&#39;s all that really matters. I was just voicing my opinion. As for your idea... I really can&#39;t say as I have not yet mastered WILD. At least you have a plan though... that&#39;s good.

In the end I am still very new to all this, and still very much in awe of the concept and the beautiful experience I had.

Postwhoring is bad :P

Billybob it is indeed hard to figure out the main point of your post, but I think I got it. You are saying that the dreamer cant be lucid and involved in the dream plot at the same time.

Quote:

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Don&#39;t get me wrong, I&#39;m not saying lucid dreaming sucks by any means. All I&#39;m saying is that its not comparable to real life, If you ever decide "I want to be peter pan" or something similar (role-playing) it would be nothing like real life, your natural mental processes would kick in and you would actually become peter pan, (think about it, when your playing a video game do you steadily think: "I&#39;m a person holding a controller"? of course not, that would ruin the fun of it. In the same way when lucid you don&#39;t want to steadily think "I&#39;m (insert your name), and I&#39;m in a dream right now", If you do falter and stop thinking "I&#39;m me and I&#39;m in a dream right now" you&#39;ll fall into the illusion and never come out till you wake up the next morning.[/b]

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I&#39;d like to take a shot at solving this mystery. Remember a while ago you made a post about excerting "the ultimate control" over a dream? You were using a dream bathroom as an example - everything there was entirely a product of your own mind. Back then I knew something was wrong with that idea and now I see the result. You totally removed all charm and mystery from your dreams - you and the dream are one. In the peter pan roleplay you would know and think that the characters around you are fake and represent yourself.
Just think about it, I&#39;m not saying I&#39;m right or anything like that.

Sometimes I feel the way you do - I&#39;m above the dream, nothing matters and it kinda fades into background. I try to carry out whatever experiment I&#39;m doing paying absolutely no attention to the dream because I know it&#39;s a dream.
On the other hand there are a lot more times when I&#39;m aware yet involved in the dream - I talk to the DCs, I treat them and the surrounding as if it was real. In these cases I&#39;m myself and the dream replaces real life - it is entirely independent of me and I interact with it instead of controlling it.

The other day I was surfing on a river (it was weird), I was lucid yet I was so absorbed in the process that I didnt do anything, Just continued to surf and that was a lot of fun. Pure undiluted fun :D

Lol, this is contagious. I&#39;ve made a post and I&#39;m not sure if it answers any of your questions about dream realism, but I hope you will find some things useful.


I dont know about your daytime LD idea - it sounds difficult to implement

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ev

Postwhoring is bad :P

Billybob it is indeed hard to figure out the main point of your post, but I think I got it. You are saying that the dreamer cant be lucid and involved in the dream plot at the same time.



I&#39;d like to take a shot at solving this mystery. Remember a while ago you made a post about excerting "the ultimate control" over a dream? You were using a dream bathroom as an example - everything there was entirely a product of your own mind. Back then I knew something was wrong with that idea and now I see the result. You totally removed all charm and mystery from your dreams - you and the dream are one. In the peter pan roleplay you would know and think that the characters around you are fake and represent yourself.
Just think about it, I&#39;m not saying I&#39;m right or anything like that.

Sometimes I feel the way you do - I&#39;m above the dream, nothing matters and it kinda fades into background. I try to carry out whatever experiment I&#39;m doing paying absolutely no attention to the dream because I know it&#39;s a dream.
On the other hand there are a lot more times when I&#39;m aware yet involved in the dream - I talk to the DCs, I treat them and the surrounding as if it was real. In these cases I&#39;m myself and the dream replaces real life - it is entirely independent of me and I interact with it instead of controlling it.

The other day I was surfing on a river (it was weird), I was lucid yet I was so absorbed in the process that I didnt do anything, Just continued to surf and that was a lot of fun. Pure undiluted fun :D

Lol, this is contagious. I&#39;ve made a post and I&#39;m not sure if it answers any of your questions about dream realism, but I hope you will find some things useful.
I dont know about your daytime LD idea - it sounds difficult to implement
[/b]

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That&#39;s very well said.

I entirely agree with Ev.

Also, there&#39;s nothing wrong with knowing that something is fake. It may take some of the fun out of the experience, but there&#39;s still plenty of enjoyment left over.

If I know Jessica Alba is fake, that doesn&#39;t make it any less fun to have fantastic sex with her. So the hell what if she&#39;s not real, she&#39;s certaintly realistic.

Maybe you can&#39;t be absorbed by the dream world and have ultimate control at the same time, but you can still kind of go along with everything, using your abilities as you see fit. I may be reading this post entirely wrong, but I think that if I think of my DCs and everything as a seperate entity from myself, I have just about as much fun as I would if this world were real. Unless I&#39;m trying to be god, I have no problem thinking of everyone having their own mind, and my dream world being created by something other than myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Limitz

...I have no problem thinking of everyone having their own mind, and my dream world being created by something other than myself.
[/b]

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Yeah that&#39;s what I was trying to get across earlier basically... it is my own mind, created by my own subconcious(I believe). But I can relinquish control of all the people in it, and therefore they become more real, independent, etc.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying:

"If you enjoy the dream and really get absorbed in the dream you lose lucidity, but if you maintain your lucidity, you are unable to truly enjoy the dream."

Although you have far more lucid dreaming experience than I, I&#39;m going to go out on a limb and say the following:

The true consummate lucid dreamer becomes lucid without effort and maintains lucidity almost unconsciously, and even when exerting great control over his dreamscape he will not lose lucidity unless he wills it so.

I imagine that of the small percentage of lucid dreamers who learn to become lucid at will, there is an even smaller number who never fear a loss of lucidity. Nevertheless I will continue to strive for my description of the consummate lucid dreamer, because if I&#39;m going to really work at lucid dreaming I might as well aim for the top, even if I find I must set smaller, more easily attainable goals to get there.

My two cents,
-Jonathan.

This is an interesting thread.
A while ago I posted a thread on consciousness as a scale, and at what level of consciousness we were at whilst lucid. At the time, I hadn&#39;t had a particularly long lucid, so didn&#39;t get to examine my thoughts.
Let&#39;s take making decisions as an example:
In NLDs, you rarely ever make a decision, it&#39;s usually a fixed path which you travel down.
In LDs, you sometimes make choices, but less frequently than in reality, and are often skewed from your waking perspective; that is to say that you make descisions that you wouldn&#39;t otherwise. This skewing could be related to lucidity in two ways, depending on situation. Because you are lucid, you realise that something is possible that was not before, and make a descision based on this (I can jump off this cliff, because I am dreaming and won&#39;t get hurt). The other type is something else interfering with our decisions (I don&#39;t feel like jumping off this cliff anymore). Could this interference be to do with lack of consciousness, and the dream interfering?
During a longer lucid, I made a decision to stop for a moment, close my eyes and commit what had happened in the dream to memory. This was something I&#39;d never thought of doing before, so appeared to me to be a decision during a lucid, furthering the previously preposed idea. I however maintain that I was not as conscious as in real life, because I still didn&#39;t make some decisions that I would have done in reality.

So how does this apply to your first post?
From your perspective, there appears to be an inverse correlation between lucidity and immersion. More lucidity means less immersion and vice-versa. If we apply a conscious scale to it, with non-lucid being least conscious, and waking life being most conscious, this means that quickWILD would mean that you enter the dream with almost all of your consciousness intact. If all these presupposed scales are linear, this would therefore mean that the high level of consciousness still wouldn&#39;t bring immersion.
If you do manage to get this art of quickWILD down, it would be very interesting to see the outcome. If it turns out as you supposed, and quickWILD feels more immersive and more lucid and conscious, this would mean that one or more of the scales were not linear.

If anyone gets what i&#39;m going on about, congratulations&#33;

Billybob.. what you&#39;re saying is you don&#39;t think much of your average lucidity level, right?

I&#39;d have to agree.

My hot time is between 3 and 4 in the afternoon. I&#39;ve had my best LDs at that time, but have only managed to go into LD without falling asleep two times, and both times it was really shocking to me and I lost it.

I have read accounts of people who can do it, though, and their lucidity level does seem to be stronger than the norm, but in my experience higher lucidity comes with practice: the more practice you do, the more lucid you get.

BTW Stay away from demonic beasts and stop fighting in your dreams.

..and stop having dream sex as well.. it causes a tremendous strain on control, on lucidity.

I don&#39;t know I don&#39;t see my Subconcious &#39;&#39;Dreaming&#39;&#39; Mind as my Enemy with which I have to Fight to maintain Lucid and gain some amount of Control over my Dreams. Instead I&#39;m trying to get more in Touch with &#39;&#39;it&#39;&#39; since it is my True 100% Unfiltered Self. It is my source of all Creativity I put in Songs I write and Drawings I draw. I can do nothing but Ignmire it a great deal. And my quest for gaining Lucidity is better compaired to the HUMBLE Corrupted, Socially Restrained, CONCIOUS &#39;&#39;me&#39;&#39;, asking the ROYAL, Pure, Subconcious, True me for some Insight on His Point of view: In the form of Lucidity in Dreams.

I&#39;m trying NOT to get an inner struggle, more like an inner unison. The Ego is really devided in 2. Your Subconcious is the REAL you, that doesn&#39;t bullshit itself or others but is often very (Crually) rightious and confronting manifested in Dreams. You may be able to fool your Concious Self, But something in the back of your (Subconcious) Mind keeps telling you &#39;&#39;ah ah ah that wasn&#39;t a good thing to do now was it?&#39;&#39; You can&#39;t Bullshite your Subconcious mind as it just sits there and objectively perceives and stores facts, memories. Inedieably.

It is why &#39;&#39;the Harsh truth&#39;&#39; often returns to us in a symbolical way in our Dreams.

I think Trying to be more in touch with and having more Understanding OF the Subconcious Mind: The REAL you, is a much better way to be able to maintain undisturbed Lucidity. Like making a Reasonable Deal with yourself.