LD Dangers?

Has anyone ever had bad experiences with lucid dreaming? I never have, but I wonder about it. Can it be taken too far, to an unhealthy extreme? Can we have to much of a good thing?

I believe that dreams and dream content serve natural biological and psychological functions designed to help keep us healthy, happy and solve problems. If we force lucid dreams unnaturally or make too much effort to control or sustain them, could we be interfering with the natural purposes?

Is our subconscious always in control for a reason? Doesn’t it already know how many lucid dreams, the intensity, duration, type of content, amount of control, when we are ready, how much we can handle and what we need,… when and why? Do lucid dreams start AND end for a reason? Are lucid dreams essentially unnatural?

... Is anything all good or all bad?

What are the dangers if any?

Don't worry, many members here have been lucid dreaming a long time and are still healthy. If anything became too extreme you would just wake up.

So just don't worry about it, it lucid dreaming were bad this forum probably wouldn't be here.

First off, there are some people that have lucid dreams constantly, naturally, and show no ill effects.

Secondly, even if you were to become lucid every night, your non-lucid REM periods would make up for whatever natural memory function normal dreaming produces.

Thirdly, lucid dreams can have very similar content to the dream you were meant to have. Settings and characters can represent the settings and characters you would've dreampt about while non-lucid.

I have LDs quite frequently, but I have to go on the assumption that everyone is different. I also am a natural, and keep it that way for my own reasons...

What's good for some people may not be so good for others.

Can LDs create problems for some people during their waking lives,… or would the subconscious naturally intervene at that point?

I have heard that some people have problems with spouses, parents and such as a result of their lucid dreaming on this board. Are their any other possible dangers we need to be aware of?

As a general rule, I think moderation is healthy in most everything.

I get in trouble for spending too much time on DreamViews, does that count? :D

I think there are a few dangers:

1. If you confuse yourself over a reality check then you may do something stupid in real life.
(Has happened to some people before)

2. You may find you want to spend all of your time in your dreams and not in real life.
(although this can only cause problems in very extreme cases)

There most likely wouldn’t be any way of proving them, but I think I could come up with a list of "possible" dangers, or possible "dark side"... we probably all could.

Isn't this something we need to address?

I think a good safe guard with all of it is to keep it in a "healthy perspective".

If you want a list, the lucid dreaming wikibook would be a good place to start.

I don't think you can harm yourself by "forcing" yourself to have too many lucid dreams, not in the way you suggest. I'd say the main risks aren't specific to lucid dreaming - obsession or spending too much time / effort on methods to get lucid. Perhaps in extreme cases there's a risk in questioning reality, but I still don't think that's a function of having too many lucid dreams.

I hold this theory,… each dream we have, lucid or not, recalled or not, controlled or not, … permanently alters our consciousness.

It’s powerful medicine…

There are no known cases where lucid dreaming caused psychological illness. Your brain is well capable of sorting out what's true and what not.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

I hold this theory,… each dream we have, lucid or not, recalled or not, controlled or not, … permanently alters our consciousness.

It’s powerful medicine…

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First off, I mean seriously, are you trying to find something wrong with LDing? Just saying is all. Anyways, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the psychological exertion of ones mind. Why was man blessed with so much brain power, if not to use it, and find our own secrets and limitations? The mind and body are easily hurt physically, but less though mentally. I believe Lucid Dreaming has no other effects on a human other than a desire to do it, which I am enlightened to say, I have fulfilled.

I'm personally worried that I might start taking real life less seriously. I don't mean I'm going to jump off a bridge expecting to be able to fly, but I'm worried about getting generally "lazier" and not using my intellect as much as I normally do..

I have 2-6 lucid dreams a night, and I have no problems caused by lucid dreams. Rather the opposite. I have anxiety, and I'm using my lucid dreams to understand and deal with my anxiety. Not to mention all the other things lucid dreams can be used for, like doing and experiencing stuff that I can't do in real life.

Dreaming is very dangerous, it makes you think you can do things that you can't really do in real life, you can end up as a psycho who can't differentiate between reality and dreams, this is why the society tries to convince everyone that dreaming is bad and dangerous.

Oh wait...

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Originally Posted by Überschall

There are no known cases where lucid dreaming caused psychological illness. Your brain is well capable of sorting out what's true and what not.

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Here's a shot of me (on the right and my brother on the left) before LDing. I was a cute normal healthy kid:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Showc1965a.jpg

Here's me after 25 years of LDing,... and that was 10 years and hundreds of LDs ago! Imagine what I look like now! Ha Ha Ha LOL :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...titled-1ba.jpg
I have more proof if you need it. :boogie:

LDing is glamorous! LOL :D

Once I had a dream in which a relative of mine died in a strange way(but I don't remember now). I felt scared and depressed for about three days afterward, but that wouldn't make me want to stop dreaming.... My mom says that reality checking will make me schizophranic(I don't think I spelled it right), but I say that its fine and I will be fine. She worries too much for no reason....

http://usera.imagecave.com/Torcher/deadkittens.bmp.jpg


but seriously...unless you LD only to murder DCs (in which case you might want to get your meter checked anyway), I doubt any harm can arise from the practice.

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Originally Posted by Torcher

http://usera.imagecave.com/Torcher/deadkittens.bmp.jpg


but seriously...unless you LD only to murder DCs (in which case you might want to get your meter checked anyway), I doubt any harm can arise from the practice.

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I don't see why it would be wrong to kill DCs. I've taken onto masses of soldiers in my second LD, I already can't count how many guys I have dispatched right there. It's nothing too unusual to kill DCs, and it's better than killing people IRL.

Well, if that's the ONLY thing you do in LDs, you don't fly around or explore or things like that, is what I think Torcher meant.

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Originally Posted by Sgeo

Well, if that's the ONLY thing you do in LDs, you don't fly around or explore or things like that, is what I think Torcher meant.

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I have no idea what they meant,... but don't say I didn't warn you! LOL :shock:

Because of sleep paralysis, the body/brain doesn't recognize the difference between doing something IRL (in real life) or not. Psychologically it's the same.

I think trying too hard to have lucid dreams can screw up your sleep cycles, but other than that, there's no harm. Your brain is still firing away and doing all the other things it does in REM. Features of your dream over which you don't exert conscious control - that is, almost all of the dream except for your choice of which actions to pursue - are still controlled by random and subconscious processes, allowing your mind to appropriately "dump" its contents. You're still immobilized and letting your blanket control your body temperature as your body temperature regulation systems are maintained. Most (but possibly not all) of the brain chemistry involved is the same in lucid and non-lucid dreams.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

I hold this theory,… each dream we have, lucid or not, recalled or not, controlled or not, … permanently alters our consciousness.

It’s powerful medicine…

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Ye i agree.

Lets not forget that dreams are created by our mind perceived by our mind and processed by our mind, so if LD was harmfully for our mind, it just simply wouldn't allow it, and if it was harmful, then we found the only mistake that nature made.

DON’T DO ANYTHING IN A LUCID DREAM THAT YOU “WOULD’NT” (((not couldn‘t))), IN REAL LIFE!

... for your own good!

Psychologically it's all the same!

If you fantasize about killing people, or animals or causing pain,... you need to seek professional help!

I don't think this is what this forum is about,... I hope not!

If you are joking then I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

Because of sleep paralysis, the body/brain doesn't recognize the difference between doing something IRL (in real life) or not. Psychologically it's the same.

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I certainly don't think so. It just feels the same because your subconcious is making it all so real, but the psychological effects of it are nothing. Like I said, your brain is well capable of dividing inbetween subconcious happenings in your dream and your waking likfe as soon as you wake up. Like I said, I killed people in LDs before and I didn't get any psychological problems.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

DON’T DO ANYTHING IN A LUCID DREAM THAT YOU “WOULD’NT” (((not couldn‘t))), IN REAL LIFE!

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Are you suggesting every time we get in to LD we go and do things that we do in real life, but what about the endless possibilities the realization of your desires, your statement defeats the purpose of dreaming lucidly.

To maintain “consciousness” means to maintain, morals, ethics, mindfulness, common sense, awareness, perspective, "identity" and self control.

If you can not,… then you are not in/within control of your actions…

… and if you are not,… then who is?

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Originally Posted by Cathode_Ray

Are you suggesting every time we get in to LD we go and do things that we do in real life, but what about the endless possibilities the realization of your desires, your statement defeats the purpose of dreaming lucidly.

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They are equally real, but equally different...

You can do things in dreams you can't do in real life, the laws of physics change,... but you remain the same... in a constant state of change... every choice we make, every way we turn, each path we take... effects us eternally.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

They are equally real, but equally different...

You can do things in dreams you can't do in real life, the laws of physics change,... but you remain the same... in a constant state of change... every choice we make, every way we turn, each path we take... effects us eternally.

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I bet you don't care for that 19 page thread on how to kill DC's then :P

"To maintain “consciousness” means to maintain, morals, ethics, mindfulness, common sense, awareness, perspective, "identity" and self control." Who I Am

I like how you ignore my whole point. Many people have killed DCs before and many people are going out of their RL morals in dreams because it carries absolutely no consequences.

And as I said, the mind can nicely seperate waking life and experiences in dreams.

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Originally Posted by Überschall

I like how you ignore my whole point. Many people have killed DCs before and many people are going out of their RL morals in dreams because it carries absolutely no consequences.

And as I said, the mind can nicely seperate waking life and experiences in dreams.

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"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

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That has nothing to do with the point I made.

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Originally Posted by Überschall

I like how you ignore my whole point. Many people have killed DCs before and many people are going out of their RL morals in dreams because it carries absolutely no consequences.

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Originally Posted by Überschall

And as I said, the mind can nicely separate waking life and experiences in dreams.

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I think there is truth to this as people do find themselves doing things in dreams they wouldn't do in RL. But you also have to take into account that most people believe that in your Normal dreams you are working out your frustrations, problems and processing what happened to you in the day. Because of this some people find themselves killing other person because that is the rage inside of them they must express.

Now in lucid dreams this is different as you retain who you are in essence. You a re in control of your dreams so you can chose to do such things. As Who I Am posted:

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To maintain “consciousness” means to maintain, morals, ethics, mindfulness, common sense, awareness, perspective, "identity" and self control.

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We are aware of every thing we are in these dreams so some people find it had to do such things they wouldn't normally do in RL and this is where the posts come from asking for help to conger something, or how to change the dreamscape etc. We may want to do these things because we know it is a dream and we can, but we have a hard time getting past the part of it really being just a dream.

In a dream I had this morning I caused a girl to fall 5 stories and die. Before I found out she wasn't really dead I cried because even though I knew it was a dream I still felt sad that my actions had caused the death of another person or DC. When I was about 10 in a recurring dream I had I watched an old lady get beat to death because she was helping me escape the maze I was in. I have not been the same since because of this dream terror and since then I have had a hard time asking for help (even in RL).

Ok so now I feel like I am just ranting.

In essence, a dream is what you make of it. It can be something you can learn from or it can become your privet play ground to do what you will. But I will always believe that no matter if it is a normal dream or a lucid dream we can only do what we find normal and natural to be doing or learn how to over come this natural barrier we impose on ourselves. We always retain the essence of who we are as far as our morals go. We may only go as far as we are willing to go. It is all what you chose to believe and what you chose to do.

It is my belief with dreams there will never be a line of what is right and what is wrong, although people try to impose such a line as dreams are what you make of them.

Anna

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Originally Posted by Überschall

Many people have killed DCs before and many people are going out of their RL morals in dreams because it carries absolutely no consequences.

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Now.. I'd really like to know what qualifies you to make such a statement. How long have you been LDing? 35 years? 40 years? What do you know about it, that isn't actually you just hypothesising?

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Originally Posted by Oneiro

Now.. I'd really like to know what qualifies you to make such a statement. How long have you been LDing? 35 years? 40 years? What do you know about it, that isn't actually you just hypothesising?

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I've not been LDing that long but I am part of this community long enough and I also know some people IRL who occasionally lucid dream and also occasionally kill DCs. I don't have to be an expert of this matter to tell from personal expirience that not that few people tend to killing DCs.

You wrote: "..it carries absolutely no consequences.."

So.. I ask again.. what gives you the experience to make such a sweeping statement, given that you have paltry LD experience?

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Originally Posted by Oneiro

You wrote: "..it carries absolutely no consequences.."

So.. I ask again.. what gives you the experience to make such a sweeping statement, given that you have paltry LD experience?

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Why would it carry any consequence if you do it in a dream? There's no known case of people being psychologically harmed by things happening in lucid dreams, because it all happens in a corner of your head that your mind shuts once the dream ends. You're not even supposed to remember your dreams, as I believe. It's something your mind goes onto when it sleeps and then shuts it down when it awakes. This is why I couldn't think of any consequence resulting out of ones actions in a dream.

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Originally Posted by Überschall

There's no known case of people being psychologically harmed by things happening in lucid dreams, because it all happens in a corner of your head that your mind shuts once the dream ends.

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Listen.. you don't know what you're talking about. You have barely any empirical knowledge of LDing, and that being so, you are not qualified to make such (sweeping) statements. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of the dangers of LDing. You search this forum and you'll find some.

It always amazes me that people with so little empirical experience feel qualified to make such all-encompassing statements.

I’ve whacked a few dream characters in my day, and done some things that I’m not proud of in lucid dreams. Things I wouldn’t have in real life. It still happens… I’ve always wondered why? DCs can‘t hurt me,... They are all manifestations of myself! I've tried to get better control of that part.

I've tried to let my hostilities and lusts go. It's an ongoing battle.

What you do in your lucid dreams tells you something about, "Who You Are",... and who you want to be.

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Originally Posted by Oneiro

Listen.. you don't know what you're talking about. You have barely any empirical knowledge of LDing, and that being so, you are not qualified to make such (sweeping) statements. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of the dangers of LDing. You search this forum and you'll find some.

It always amazes me that people with so little empirical experience feel qualified to make such all-encompassing statements.

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I know a heap of thrustworthy people, including my parents, knowing about lucid dreaming and being into it for many years. I wouldn't lay down such a statement if I didn't know what I was talking about.
Apart from that, going away from beliefs of moral and such, scientifical research has called it nearly impossible for lucid dreams to harm the psyche of psychologically stable people like me and you.

I'm going to stick with my belief that the expiriences in dreams are not affecting anything but the dreamworld itself.

The only one there is to love, hate,… or be afraid of in your lucid dreams,… is yourself!

What I’m talking about ,… is like having a lucid dream, inside a lucid dream, inside a lucid dream,… inside yourself… It’s the mystery of life!

I didn’t mean to stir up a hornet’s nest… It’s just my personal perspective and opinion. Please don’t see it as a threat. It wasn’t intended to be…

We each have our own place, purpose, perspective... and our own path, the "4Ps",... I can accept that. :)

I didn't take anything as a threat, I just thought I'd air my opinion, which is, that the dreaming and waking consciouses are well seperated and mean no harm to each other. Waking life bleeds into dreaming life, but the other way it doesn't work, because in dreams we go through what happened in the day and after that dream, subconscious closes that chapter and nothing goes into your waking world-psyche.
That's just my belief and I don't expect anyone to share it.

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Originally Posted by Überschall

I'm going to stick with my belief that the expiriences (sic) in dreams are not affecting anything but the dreamworld itself.

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"Lucid Dream count - 2"

That says it all.. yadda yadda..

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Originally Posted by Überschall

I didn't take anything as a threat, I just thought I'd air my opinion, which is, that the dreaming and waking consciouses are well seperated and mean no harm to each other. Waking life bleeds into dreaming life, but the other way it doesn't work, because in dreams we go through what happened in the day and after that dream, subconscious closes that chapter and nothing goes into your waking world-psyche.
That's just my belief and I don't expect anyone to share it.

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O.K. Then stay the course!,... see where it leads,... what mysteries, adventures and discoveries it may bring. :)

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Originally Posted by Oneiro

"Lucid Dream count - 2"

That says it all.. yadda yadda..

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Leave the fucking number of my LDs out of there for now, Jesus Christ. This argument drifted more and more into a "well i got more lds so i HAVE to be right stfu". You haven't been making a point in your last three or so posts but picking on my "lack of experience" which I don't need anyway for this debate because it's a substinantial debate about dreaming and subconsciouseness. If I believe that MY subconscious doesn't let MY dream experiences bleed into MY psyche, stop going on me like a Conservative Christian Politician onto a gay, communistic member of the YMCA.

"Nobody’s right, if everybody’s wrong."

PEACE! :boogie:

I don't think that killing DC's in a dream makes you more violent in real life. That's just my opinion though. It's a lucid dream: you are aware that you are dreaming, you are aware of the fact that these DC's and everything is not real, so what's wrong with some dream violence, as long as you keep in mind that you are dreaming?

I once punched someone in the face in my dream, because it's funny and it's not something that I can do without consequences (or want to!) in real life. As long as you keep a fine line between dream morals and real life morals, I don't see what could go wrong.

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Originally Posted by Überschall

Leave the fucking number of my LDs out of there for now, Jesus Christ. This argument drifted more and more into a "well i got more lds so i HAVE to be right stfu". You haven't been making a point in your last three or so posts but picking on my "lack of experience" which I don't need anyway for this debate because it's a substinantial debate about dreaming and subconsciouseness. If I believe that MY subconscious doesn't let MY dream experiences bleed into MY psyche, stop going on me like a Conservative Christian Politician onto a gay, communistic member of the YMCA.

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I hear you!

It's not the quantity of LDs,... it's the quality that counts! :)

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Originally Posted by Überschall

Leave the fucking number of my LDs out of there for now, Jesus Christ. This argument drifted more and more into a "well i got more lds so i HAVE to be right stfu". You haven't been making a point in your last three or so posts but picking on my "lack of experience" which I don't need anyway for this debate because it's a substinantial debate about dreaming and subconsciouseness. If I believe that MY subconscious doesn't let MY dream experiences bleed into MY psyche, stop going on me like a Conservative Christian Politician onto a gay, communistic member of the YMCA.

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Go stick your head back up your <SNIP>
Aaaaaah.. that feels better.

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Originally Posted by Oneiro

Go stick your head back up your stupid fucking little arse, you stupid fucking know-nothing little kid..

Aaaaaah.. that feels better.

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What the hell are you trying to achieve? What the fuck is your goal, insulting not my arguments (which I put down anyway), my opinion, my belief, but rather me? What do you seriousely try to gain from this? Are you such a close minded prick that you really have to not accept my settlement of terms by individualizing it onto me but rather go on and insult me?

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Originally Posted by Iamerik

I don't think that killing DC's in a dream makes you more violent in real life. That's just my opinion though. It's a lucid dream: you are aware that you are dreaming, you are aware of the fact that these DC's and everything is not real, so what's wrong with some dream violence, as long as you keep in mind that you are dreaming?

I once punched someone in the face in my dream, because it's funny and it's not something that I can do without consequences (or want to!) in real life. As long as you keep a fine line between dream morals and real life morals, I don't see what could go wrong.

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It may make you more "pacifistic" in real life, which could be good or bad depending on the circumstances. The point is that it changes/alters you one way or another IRL each time...

To Ueberscheisse - Look here. <SNIP> you come in here, expounding on arguments about which you know nothing.. (LD count -2).. and you expect to get away with it scot free? And then you start swearing? And you expect to get no flak back? Who the hell do you think you are? You are a poxy little kid who knows empirically nothing, and yet who feels qualified to make sweeping statements about that which you know empirically nothing? <SNIP>

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Originally Posted by Oneiro

To Ueberscheisse - Look here. you little fucking twat.. you come in here, expounding on arguments about which you know nothing.. (LD count -2).. and you expect to get away with it scot free? And then you start swearing? And you expect to get no flak back? Who the hell do you think you are? You are a poxy little kid who knows empirically nothing, and yet who feels qualified to make sweeping statements about that which you know empirically nothing? You can go and get fucked, you stupid little kid.

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You're really making a great point. Yeah, by harshly insulting me, you're really making a great great point.
What this debate here is about is, looked at from some other point of view, a more general one, the bleeding from dream events into your "waking" psyche. It doesn't have anything in particular to do with Lucid Dreaming especial, and especially not with my Lucid Dreaming experiences.
Apart from that, two LDs ARE experiences. If I had no lucid dreams at all, I would understand your point, but I had two, the second one being long and very damn vivid and I saw people dying and I am not psychologically affected.

Your psyche makes all the dream scenario up and makes it all the way it wants it to be - it would be totally senseless if it was to make something up that harms itself. You wouldn't lay out nails in front of you just to walk over right after, would you?
Again, it's not like there's any scientific proof for this and I don't insist that there is, but from my belief of logic and sense in this subconscious affair, this is the most logical solution.
Now I said that and you come, putting me and my opinion down because I'm "not long at it" and a "stupid kid"? What do you expect? Wouldn't you get mad if you air your opinion and some obvious idiot comes running on and puts it down because of irellevant relations?

Cool down guys! Please!

I started this thread, with no bad intentions,... I apologize if I set off some kind of dispute.

We all have our own views and valid perspectives.

It's not you who set of the dispute and I know you had no bad intentions, no need to apologize. I agree with your point that we all have our own views and I respect your opinion about possible harm occuring from dreams as there's no black or white in this. There is hardly any proof for either side and I'm fine with that. I'm just not fine with someone disrespecting my view because of some illiterate bullshit.

Ok, now it's obvious that you're not Oneironaut. Your names are way too similar for my comfort, meh. Also, are you trying to make a point, have you been arguing with ad hominems in your dreams and demonstrating that it leaked over? Or are you just being argumentative?

Up yours Sgeo.. go back and read the thread and see who started off swearing.. and I stand by my original point - someone who has just two LDs has no right to make such sweeping statements as that kid has..

Guess why I started swearing? Because you're putting down my opinion all the time, calling out stupid shit that is irrelevant. I'm not gonna repeat my wall of text which you won't read anyway and in which I stated everything that is essential to my opinion and all my expressions in this thread.

BOTH OF YOU!
Stop insulting eachother.
If you want to, you can insult eachother's opinions, as long as you explain WHY you believe that opinion is wrong.
But please, NOT eachother.

I'm not insulting him. At no place I insulted him, I was always going onto his claims of me not knowing anything because I'm "a kid". And on his behaviour putting me down.

Also, I don't want to insult anyone's opinion in here. It's an opinion based thing and I'm not expecting anyone to share mine, suddenly, someone comes from behind and yells at me for stating my belief in this.

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Originally Posted by Grunkie7

I bet you don't care for that 19 page thread on how to kill DC's then :P

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WHAT!?!? Link plz.

WOW! Dang!

You folks are about to trigger me into "super lucidity" right now! :D LOL


Cool!

THANKS! :boogie:

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"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

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Newtonian mechanics are irrelevant in a world where the laws of physics mean nothing.

This sounds like an attempt to come across as intelligent and knowledgeable, but instead you spout scientific facts in the wrong context.

Your argument is based on a fallacy that people will act out fantasies in the real world. Many of us are healthy rational people who are more than capable of doing stuff that would be considered unethical in a fictional world of your imagination, but would refuse point blank to take these actions in the waking world.

The difference between the two is that no one gets hurt in the dream world (and there are no real life consequences), whereas this is not the same in the real world.

Let's say you kill someone in a lucid dream. Why is this no different from killing a fictional character in a video game? Aside from that a LD might be more realistic, there is not really much difference between the two.

In spite of many attempts to do so, there is no evidence that violent games, films, music, pictures, or any other form of media cause rational beings who can understand fact and fiction, to go out and commit such acts. Those that do such acts are found to have some form of mental illness.

Furthermore, it might well be that allowing people to act out fantasies in a safe setting is actually better. In the same way that the propagation of online pornography was shown to reduce the amount of rapes, it is not inconceivable that violent media may allow people that would tend towards these kinds of crimes to act them out in a safe setting. In this regard, lucid dreaming is just another means to do so.

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I believe that dreams and dream content serve natural biological and psychological functions designed to help keep us healthy, happy and solve problems. If we force lucid dreams unnaturally or make too much effort to control or sustain them, could we be interfering with the natural purposes?

Is our subconscious always in control for a reason? Doesn’t it already know how many lucid dreams, the intensity, duration, type of content, amount of control, when we are ready, how much we can handle and what we need,… when and why? Do lucid dreams start AND end for a reason? Are lucid dreams essentially unnatural?

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This is all simply speculation. I'm not saying that concerns aren't justified, but seeing as we barely know about the processes that make up dreaming, and there is documented evidence of the many positive effects, and no evidence of negative side effects, to keep insisting that LD is dangerous is irresponsible.

The only dangers are if the individual becomes addicted to lucid dreaming and desires to escape reality constantly, or if the individual is unable to distinguish fact from fiction.

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Originally Posted by Sgeo

Ok, now it's obvious that you're not Oneironaut. Your names are way too similar for my comfort, meh. Also, are you trying to make a point, have you been arguing with ad hominems in your dreams and demonstrating that it leaked over? Or are you just being argumentative?

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Originally Posted by Sgeo

BOTH OF YOU!
Stop insulting eachother.
If you want to, you can insult eachother's opinions, as long as you explain WHY you believe that opinion is wrong.
But please, NOT eachother.

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lol who are you?

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Originally Posted by Elis D.

WHAT!?!? Link plz.

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http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=14205
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Word, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

Has anyone ever had bad experiences with lucid dreaming? I never have, but I wonder about it. Can it be taken too far, to an unhealthy extreme? Can we have to much of a good thing?

I believe that dreams and dream content serve natural biological and psychological functions designed to help keep us healthy, happy and solve problems. If we force lucid dreams unnaturally or make too much effort to control or sustain them, could we be interfering with the natural purposes?

Is our subconscious always in control for a reason? Doesn’t it already know how many lucid dreams, the intensity, duration, type of content, amount of control, when we are ready, how much we can handle and what we need,… when and why? Do lucid dreams start AND end for a reason? Are lucid dreams essentially unnatural?

... Is anything all good or all bad?

What are the dangers if any?

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The only potential danger is that it may affect Ur perception of reality. But that's really subjective....it depends on Ur grip on reality as a person. If Ur easily influenced into believeing that reality may not be real and that U may be living in a dream like environment then it may become dangerous as Ur subconcious will believe that as a fact and behave funnily as in U'lll feel as though everything around U isn't real and U go into zoned out mode...:P. But even if it happens..it can be rectified. Just stop lucid dreaming for a while and 'engage' back into reality...:).

IMJ

I'm pretty sure communists aren't the targeted audience for the YMCA...

Out of curiosity, Who I Am, do you feel the same way about violent video games?

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Originally Posted by Khrysothemis

Out of curiosity, Who I Am, do you feel the same way about violent video games?

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Thanks for bringing this up :) I've just been reading this thread and was thinking about video games/movies/other media the whole time.

I won't say immoral actions in LDs can't have an effect on our psyche or our real world actions, but I do think it depends on the person and how grounded they are. Some people are very impressionable or have a blured line between reality and fantasy, or they simple have a mental disorder. For these people I think it very well could and probably would have a negative effect on them.

But for most people, the line between fantasy and reality is very solid. I also think this solid boundary allows us to vent some of our negative feelings in a fantasy environment. So for these mentally balanced people, I think performing any violent tendencies and such in dreams can actually be beneficial, as it decreases the urge to do them in the real world. At least I know it does for me. I've had LDs where I've summon up people I'm angry with in the real world and then deliberately injured them. Because it makes me feel better without doing such a thing in reality and I understand that key difference.

Same thing with Video Games or Movies. I watch a lot of violent movies and play a lot of violent games. I enjoy it, it appeals to the violent creature hidden within me. If I didn't do these things, I think I could have become a much more violent person that I am. And I am not a violent person, at all. I've never been in a fight or hurt someone physically.

Whether or not having LDs interferes with some function of the brain and does damage that way, I don't know. But I think even if it did, we have so few LDs compared to regular dreams that I think anything we're missing during LDs would surely be made up for in regular dreams.

I think everyone is different. Some folks may have nothing to be concerned about with this "side topic", others may. Some of us may be walking a much finer line...or already be mentally ill or psychologically impaired.

I do think lucid dreaming is much different than normal dreaming, watching TV, or playing a video game. In any dream, sleep paralysis kicks in for a reason. As we are sleeping the brain is sending signals to our body to act out the actions in our dream, but the paralysis stops it. In this scenario, the brain doesn't make the distinction between dreaming and being awake. To the brain it all seems real, or like a real experience. In normal dreams the mind can work out it’s quirks. Lucid dreams are special.

I personally steer away even from movies, games and hobbies with violent content. I do it out of personal choice and out of concern for my own well being and those around me. I’ve had violent tendencies and problems with anger in the past, and have tried to adopt nothing but peaceful hobbies and recreation. I can tell you from my own experience it helps… a lot! What I feed my mind makes a big difference.

Since so many people seem to like this topic,
There are other possible dangers we can talk about...

"Dream guides" and possible dangers of schizophrenia and demonic possession, come to mind…

At any rate, I don't think we need to argue or take offense to any of it,... because it's probably not provable or disprovable either way. We each have a choice and can do whatever we feel is best. :)

However, I do think that being aware of "possible" dangers, is good, and I don't see how it can hurt... or hurt to talk about it.

... personal attacks are another matter, and I think,... in poor form.
... but not that I or anyone else, is above it.

As others have said, the possible dangers I see associated with lucid dreaming are an unhealthy desire to escape into this fantasy world.

On another note, it seems to me this whole argument between Überschall and Oneiro stemmed from the fact that one of them stated that lucid dreaming is safe for everyone since it's only fantasy and not reality, and the other seemed to have some sort of experience with people not drawing a strong enough line between the two.

Everyone is different, of course, but a clear line needs to be drawn between what happens in the fantasy world of lucid dreaming (and others, like videogames) and what happens in real life.

Everybody has a right to think about anything they want to, and if it's morbid or socially unacceptable, that doesn't make them abnormal. Joe Everyman has thoughts like that: "Man I could absolutely KILL my landlady right now." What counts is whether or not you act on them or not - whether or not you have the ability to distinguish between the two.

For the people who can't - I can see how pursuing socially unacceptable actions in lucid dreaming (and violent videogames) could possibly trigger these thoughts for them in real life. Understood. But this is not the normal case for most mentally stable people.

Many (most it seems) of us have absolutely no problem making a clear distinction between between the two, and we shouldn't be looked down for it either (not saying anybody in this thread has, as I think Oneiro just harshly took issue with Überschall's claim that all people should be able to distinguish between fantasy and reality).

P.S. This whole "post your lucid dream count in your sig" thing is a bit ridiculous, and I've seen it fuel more than a few sophomoric pissing contests, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by AfterHours

P.S. This whole "post your lucid dream count in your sig" thing is a bit ridiculous, and I've seen it fuel more than a few sophomoric pissing contests, to be honest.

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Well, I don't know, better that than a Ron Paul banner.

AfterHours, good points, but...

It's a scary thought to become "desensitized" to violence through fantasy and repetition,... at least for me.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

"To maintain “consciousness” means to maintain, morals, ethics, mindfulness, common sense, awareness, perspective, "identity" and self control." Who I Am

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I don't believe this is a correct statement.
Consciousness does entail awareness, perspective and identity, yes. However, ethics, morals and self control are concepts that are relative to the world in which that consciousness is placed. If we lived in a different waking world, our ethics/morals/"methods of self control" would be different than they are now, however, the fact that we are conscious would not change.

Such is the distinction between the dream world and the waking world. People may choose to be one way in dreams, and another in waking life, if they view lucid dreaming as a fantasy world. As was brought up, it's the same as a person who understands the importance of a peaceful life, but enjoys playing violent video games.

It is awareness that allows them to make that distinction, and it is awareness that is activated, in a lucid dream.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

I personally steer away even from movies, games and hobbies with violent content. I do it out of personal choice and out of concern for my own well being and those around me. I’ve had violent tendencies and problems with anger in the past, and have tried to adopt nothing but peaceful hobbies and recreation. I can tell you from my own experience it helps… a lot! What I feed my mind makes a big difference.

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Ah. Well that explains a lot. Your aversion from violence or the "loss of ethics," in dreams, is directly related to your own disposition, in waking life. It only makes sense that you'd work to try to keep your morality in dreams, and, actually, I commend you for that, because I'm sure trying so hard while asleep can help you get a handle on it, in waking life.

Although, someone that doesn't have a problem with a violent or ill-tempered personality, in waking life, may have a better handle on regulating his/herself, and is less likely to be swayed by fantasy violence.

To use the video game analogy, again, someone with a horrible temper may spend his life playing violent first-person shooters and then decide to go out and mow down a school with an assault rifle. A person who lives in peace may spend his life playing first-person shooters and do nothing but brag about his high score.

I think fantasizing in general is normal and healthy up to a point, but that there may be a fine line where it becomes unnatural and unhealthy depending on the person and the nature of the fantasy.

It’s something I’ve struggled with. I’ve often wondered why I need to fantasize about anything at all…

I've often thought that dreams are an alternate reality with different rules.

When it all boils down, aren't thoughts, feelings and dreams just as real as physical reality?... real dreams, real thought, real feelings, real fantasies, etc...

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I don't believe this is a correct statement.
Consciousness does entail awareness, perspective and identity, yes. However, ethics, morals and self control are concepts that are relative to the world in which that consciousness is placed. If we lived in a different waking world, our ethics/morals/"methods of self control" would be different than they are now, however, the fact that we are conscious would not change.

Such is the distinction between the dream world and the waking world. People may choose to be one way in dreams, and another in waking life, if they view lucid dreaming as a fantasy world. As was brought up, it's the same as a person who understands the importance of a peaceful life, but enjoys playing violent video games.

It is awareness that allows them to make that distinction, and it is awareness that is activated, in a lucid dream.




Ah. Well that explains a lot. Your aversion from violence or the "loss of ethics," in dreams, is directly related to your own disposition, in waking life. It only makes sense that you'd work to try to keep your morality in dreams, and, actually, I commend you for that, because I'm sure trying so hard while asleep can help you get a handle on it, in waking life.

Although, someone that doesn't have a problem with a violent or ill-tempered personality, in waking life, may have a better handle on regulating his/herself, and is less likely to be swayed by fantasy violence.

To use the video game analogy, again, someone with a horrible temper may spend his life playing violent first-person shooters and then decide to go out and mow down a school with an assault rifle. A person who lives in peace may spend his life playing first-person shooters and do nothing but brag about his high score.

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That's right! It's only my personal perspective, because of "Who I Am".

What's right for me may not be right for others, but in all odds there are others like me.

For it to work, we need to know "Who We Are", and accept it.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

When it all boils down, aren't thoughts, feelings and dreams just as real as physical reality?... real dreams, real thought, real feelings, real fantasies, etc...

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No, not really.

What happens when people try to make those concepts appear so similar is that they begin mixing the words, themselves, with the actual concepts.

Yes, dreams are real. They exist. Yes, waking life is real. It exists.

But are the two comparatively real? Do they exist in the same "real" (which, in this context, means "physical") plane? Are they inter-changeable? No.

Dreams are as real as movies. They both exist. Does what you enjoy watching in a movie indisputably alter your waking life persona? Not necessarily. Does what you enjoy doing in a lucid dream indisputably alter your waking life persona? Not necessarily.

They are all "real" concepts, but do not operate within the same "reality" framework, if that makes any sense.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

What's right for me may not be right for others, but in all odds there are others like me.

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Sure. I can agree with that. So, with that in mind - to answer your initial question - There are no objective dangers to lucid dreaming (that we know of), but, there can be subjective dangers, depending on the person. This, though, is not necessarily a danger "of lucid dreaming," it's a danger of "this particular person exploring lucid dreaming," which is a bit different.

Oneironaut, I agree, there are differences, obviously,... but there are also similarities, no?

Where shall we draw the line?

Is it not all ONE, ultimately?

... One reality?

That goes for our reality, but the dream-realities are definately different for veryone.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

Oneironaut, I agree, there are differences, obviously,... but there are also similarities, no?

Where shall we draw the line?

Is it not all ONE, ultimately?

... One reality?

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One could make that argument, but I'm hard-pressed to say it holds much weight. We are equipped to deal with different facets of this one reality differently. We are not simple creatures. So, for two things to exist in the same reality doesn't necessarily make them "one." The lines are always arbitrary, yes, such is the way of "perspective and perception." There is no one place to draw the line. It is something that each individual has to figure out for his/herself and can only use the words of others as guidelines.

The difference between how you treat dreams and how you treat the waking world can only be defined by yourself and your own motivations, feelings and philosophies.

Is the physical plane any more real than anything else?

I don't think so... the physical plane may actually be less real!

What we don't know is what supports what we do know,... to be real. :boogie:

Physical reality for humans has a time limit, yet time itself has no limit. Physical reality is temporary and fleeting, is it not?

Yes, but what we are arguing here is semantics, and the many uses of the word "real."

The physical reality is what we know has consequences. It is what we know is objective. We can all experience it, being on the same plane with one another. Even if this is a holographic universe, it is in this realm of the "physical" that we know our actions affect others. That interaction (and its consequences), in effect, makes this physical reality maybe no more "real", but a little more "crucial", when we're talking about morals and ethics.

Physical reality for humans really has no time limit. It is time, itself. It is human experience that has a time limit. You can't mix the two concepts. When a human dies, physical reality still goes on, in the world around them.

Now, if you're getting into the realm of the spiritual, or even the possibility of a holographic universe, that is another thing all together, and yes, consciousness may still continue after physical death. However I don't think those are concepts that we can argue with any degree of certainty, as of yet.

Oneironaut, I agree,... but "physical reality", is not the "only reality" with consequences, right?

It's easier for me just to think of "ONE REALITY", than multiples...

Reality never changes, just the reflection of light off the surface from any given angle...

It's all the same to me.

I'm searching for the "universal perspective"… every angle simultaneously, without separation…

Do you think that it’s possible for humans? I really don't know...

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

Oneironaut, I agree,... but "physical reality", is not the "only reality" with consequences, right?

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Well, be a little more specific..which other reality(s) are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

It's easier for me just to think of "ONE REALITY", than multiples...

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There's nothing wrong with that, but the different levels of reality, within that one reality, are not always the same and should be treated with a degree of individuality.

[Edit: Oh, and if you want to add to your previous post, please use the Edit option rather than double-posting.]

Sh!T! :D LOL

I was using the edit button. I'm not seeing my double posts!

How Embarrassing! ha ha ha :D

Dam 'puter's!!! LOL

... so you play guitar? me too. :bowdown:

Dam Man!!!

It just goes to show you that reality isn't the same for everyone...

Now you guys are making me all paranoid... I might just better crawl back under my burning tree and go to sleep. HEE HEE LOL :D

... can't some of the females step in here and give me a little psychological comfort? :banana:

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

Reality never changes, just the reflection of light off the surface from any given angle...

It's all the same to me.

I'm searching for the "universal perspective"… every angle simultaneously, without separation…

Do you think that it’s possible for humans? I really don't know...

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I'm not sure I believe that that's possible for humans. Even those that are enlightened have to concede that different situations call for different perspectives, even if those different perspectives are harnessed by one being. Maybe, in essence, that's exactly what you're talking about, but I can't see myself looking at it in the "it's all the same to me" perspective. Subjectivity is important. But it's also important to be able to learn the difference between different facets of this "one reality."

Take a (somewhat) non-violent video game, like Paperboy. In that game, it's ok to ride your paper-route, throwing rolled-up bricks of newspapers through people's windows for points. Would you do it in waking life? They are both facets of the same reality, but they are different. Being aware of these distinctions is apart of "seeing all the angles," more-so than trying to "blur away" the distinctions and put those facets into one category in an attempt to unify them.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

... so you play guitar? me too. :bowdown:

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Yeah. In fact, we have a weekly Guitar Wars thingy set up in the Lounge area, if you ever decide you want to take part. :)

Oneironaut, So it was more the multiple posts and fragmentation, than repeating posts of the same thing with edits, right?... I hope. LOL

So what do we do at this guitar thingy?…

... I can't help but think maybe that a universal perspective is possible for humans, and that breaking it all down into infinite individual angles is also possible for a single human entity... :boogie:

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Has anyone ever had bad experiences with lucid dreaming? I never have, but I wonder about it. Can it be taken too far, to an unhealthy extreme? Can we have to much of a good thing?

I believe that dreams and dream content serve natural biological and psychological functions designed to help keep us healthy, happy and solve problems. If we force lucid dreams unnaturally or make too much effort to control or sustain them, could we be interfering with the natural purposes?

Is our subconscious always in control for a reason? Doesn’t it already know how many lucid dreams, the intensity, duration, type of content, amount of control, when we are ready, how much we can handle and what we need,… when and why? Do lucid dreams start AND end for a reason? Are lucid dreams essentially unnatural?

... Is anything all good or all bad?

What are the dangers if any?

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Lucid dreams arent bad for you at all. If anything, they are better for you. They help you to get in touch with yourself and reflect on yourself. and when you say like the natural order of dreams and stuff, dreams arent there to balance your psychological well-being. All a dream is is a vivid though. When you're dreaming, you're just thinking while in an unconscious state. this makes it more vivid because your mind can perceive the thought better, because it only has to focus on THAT thought. it doesnt have to worry about that math exam coming up next week, or taking the kettle off the stove. it only has to concentrate on that thought, making it more vivid, becoming a dream.

by the way, that is replying to the very first message in this thread.

Some people are into blood and gore type stuff, id rather have them take it out on DC's then any RL persons. ^_^

could be theraputic ^_-

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Originally Posted by shotbirds

Some people are into blood and gore type stuff, id rather have them take it out on DC's then any RL persons. ^_^

could be theraputic ^_-

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Sure,... carrying out these violent fantasies in LD is the lesser of the evils. However, please forgive me, but,... I don't believe there is any healthy form of blood lust.

I have learned the value and lesson of guarding my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Who I Am

Sure,... carrying out these violent fantasies in LD is the lesser of the evils. However, please forgive me, but,... I don't believe there is any healthy form of blood lust.

I have learned the value and lesson of guarding my thoughts.

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I don't know, is it possible that you're projecting a bit? Maybe there's no healthy form for you.

No; the only danger of LD ing is having so much fun your head with explode =]


On a serious note the only dangerous thing is if you get to a point were you can't tell what is real and what is a dream.

before i knew anything about ld'ing - a friend told me about his experiences with it, and the basic purpose... y'know - he is a creative person, in the same field as myself, anyways; before he gave me a few terms to google he told me that he had stopped completely due to the kind of unsavory things he used to get up to... he didn't go into much detail, but any extremes cannot be good for you. personally, i carry my morals into my dreams with me... it wasn't really a choice. this isn't to say that i don't do things i wouldn't or can't do in reality: i experiment with different things, but that isn't to say i go around killing hordes of people for no apparent reason. it doesn't make any sense to me, and i watch my fair share of violent movies.

My dad says if you use vitamin B6 too much it can mess up your head, permanently.

I can't think of any dangers, except sometimes it's a little scary when I'm entering that twilight area, and I hear someone calling my name. It gives me goospimples and sometimes that wakes me up feeling like I was in a horror movie. Other than that I have always thought of it as something special that most people don't understand or ever get a chance to experience.

K