Confused??? OBE...pshh

Okay I have read alot on this forum talking about obe's, I would think that of all places this forum would realize that there is no such thing as an OBe, its just a dream right, its all in your head. The only time I think of OBe's is when I think of all that new age religion crap. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but with all the science behind dreams and HI and whatnot that people know around here, why do people still believe in obe??? Its a disturbing term that I would relate to an occut, and I wish we could just stick to harmless LD's and not dabble in that stuff around here. I said we, but really its just me that doesn't want any part of it....so im sorry again, its just that im a christian and I dont want any of this stuff to remind me of the occult, b/c then I wouldn't feel right trying to LD.

Well, I needed to get that out there, sorry again, if I offended you, just see where Im coming from here. any comments?

I've never heard of OBEs being related to the occult. And besides, LDs, OBEs, and the like have nothing to do with Religion. At least to me.

I think you are confusing AP with OBE. An OBE is just an out-of-body-experience. Technically, any time that you dream that you don't have a body, or your original body, you are having an OBE. At least that is my personal interpretation. There is also a lot of scientific support, so I've read, for OBEs that often occur under moments of intense stress.

My advice to you? You should probably not be so quick to be disturbed by something like this as it can jeopardize your ability to be open minded. Read more, stay the hell away from Beyond Dreaming. I think most lucid dreamers permit the conversation of OBEs and AP, to a degree, because the majority of the population feels the same way about lucid dreaming that you do about OBEs. Plus, when you realize you can exist in a world completely created by your imagination and memory, you begin to realize that perception of a world completely created by your imagination and memory is not exactly impossible.

Eh, dunno. Just the way I feel about the matter. I'm with you on AP I assume- mainly because the simplest tasks that would support it don't seem possible for those who believe in it. OBEs on the other hand are another matter altogether. The only thing that annoys me is those people learning to WILD and then calling it an OBE just because they've managed to not have a dream body and who run around saying there's something mystical about it.

I'm with you, Joe. Encouraging the discussion of those sorts of things certainly isn't doing much for the public's perception of lucid dreaming. It's a shame.
:pfft:

If you go to saltcube, theses a fair number who just use OBE as a term to describe lucid dreaming. The rationale being that they are in their dream world and so consciously out of their bodies.

Then theres a bunch who think they're genuinelly wandering ghost like through the real work, or a parallel plane of existence which shared with other entities.

In other words, kooky spiritualists.

I remember seeing somewhere(Reader's Digest?) that OBEs have been scientifically proven. Call it occult if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they are there, and there are people trying to induce them.

Lucid dreams are totally different from OBEs, although many get the two confused. Stay away from the Beyond Dreaming board and the Religion and Spirituality board and you will be fine.

We've got pot-smokers, avid atheists, and new-agers here, but their threads are easily avoided if you don't click in Beyond Dreaming, Religion & Spirituality, and any threads with drugs in the title.

I don't believe in OBE, because I've never seen any truthful scientific evidence.

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Originally Posted by DuB

I'm with you, Joe. Encouraging the discussion of those sorts of things certainly isn't doing much for the public's perception of lucid dreaming. It's a shame.
:pfft:

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wow, i wouldve thought that you guys of all people wouldnt care what people think of you, thats a shame. if you guys dont believe in obe's read up on don juan. he had such control over his astral body that when he would often meet with carlos castaneda in the physical world using his astral body. carlos castaneda is the world famous auther who wrote "the teachings on don juan" i also used to think that obe's were a load of shit until i decided to try to have one, and let me tell you, they are nothing like a dream

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Originally Posted by Abra

I don't believe in OBE, because I've never seen any truthful scientific evidence.

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What, you haven't seen that famous readers digest scientific expose? :D

An OBE to me is when I am semi-lucid (can control my actions, but not the environment too much) and the dream takes me out of my body in a similar environment to the one I went to sleep in.

e.g.: I dream I wake up and float out of the bed I went to sleep in, fly through the walls etc to what appears to be the normal outside world.

Am I really leaving my body? Hell no... it's just another description of a type of dream.

Some people even wake up and seem to have a preternatural experience such as waking up and knowing "someone is about to knock on the door, I was just having an OBE and stuck my head through the wall and saw them coming" and then it really happens in the waking world.

This is explained by how acute your senses can be when not being filterd so much by your brain. e.g.: You unconsciosuly heard real world foot steps of someone walking towards your door and that manifested in your dream as the same thing. You wake up and it happens, but no, you weren't really floating around looking through the wall to see this person coming.

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Originally Posted by OrionStyles

An OBE to me is when I am semi-lucid (can control my actions, but not the environment too much) and the dream takes me out of my body in a similar environment to the one I went to sleep in.

e.g.: I dream I wake up and float out of the bed I went to sleep in, fly through the walls etc to what appears to be the normal outside world.

Am I really leaving my body? Hell no... it's just another description of a type of dream.

Some people even wake up and seem to have a preternatural experience such as waking up and knowing "someone is about to knock on the door, I was just having an OBE and stuck my head through the wall and saw them coming" and then it really happens in the waking world.

This is explained by how acute your senses can be when not being filterd so much by your brain. e.g.: You unconsciosuly heard real world foot steps of someone walking towards your door and that manifested in your dream as the same thing. You wake up and it happens, but no, you weren't really floating around looking through the wall to see this person coming.

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explain then how ppl have been known to appear as a physical body to someone when astral travelling

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Originally Posted by jleivdal

explain then how ppl have been known to appear as a physical body to someone when astral travelling

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provide some scientific evidence and I shall eagerly discuss.

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Originally Posted by Shift

provide some scientific evidence and I shall eagerly discuss.

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i could also ask you to provide scientific proof that obes dont exist, but some things simply cant be explained by science, the sooner humanity figures that one out the faster we'll advance

but i would have to agree with you to a degree. ever heard of the holographic universe theory? i basically states that the universe is a hologram. the interesting thing about holograms is that in every part of the image, an image of the whole is contained. so one could say that theoretically an image of the whole universe is in our being, so perhaps all we are doing is going inward when astral "projecting"

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Originally Posted by jleivdal

i could also ask you to provide scientific proof that obes dont exist, but some things simply cant be explained by science, the sooner humanity figures that one out the faster we'll advance

but i would have to agree with you to a degree. ever heard of the holographic universe theory? i basically states that the universe is a hologram. the interesting thing about holograms is that in every part of the image, an image of the whole is contained. so one could say that theoretically an image of the whole universe is in our being, so perhaps all we are doing is going inward when astral "projecting"

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don't care, see above ^

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Originally Posted by Shift

don't care, see above ^

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hey dude, i thought we were having a debate not an arguement

I'm not arguing or debating. I'm reiterating my original stance. Provide some scientific evidence, and I will gladly discuss. Otherwise, I don't really care.

alright whatever, i was simply supplying evidence on how obe's may be a fabrication of the mind

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Originally Posted by jleivdal

explain then how ppl have been known to appear as a physical body to someone when astral travelling

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Heh, many reasons. They are liars, crazy, don't know how their brain works, fail at basic physics etc... :)

I am thinking most of the time it goes like this.

"OMG I totally saw you last night when I woke up in a hypnagogic state and was hallucinating"

"Yeah I was totally astrally projecting, never mind that it is impossible to maintain that kind of molecular cohesion"

"Wow, it must be some kind of magic for that to happen completely in our heads"

"Yeah, we both want to believe"

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Originally Posted by jleivdal

i could also ask you to provide scientific proof that obes dont exist, but some things simply cant be explained by science, the sooner humanity figures that one out the faster we'll advance

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Exactly the same evidence which proves the existence of "god".
Conveniently enough.

I was with you (in understanding if not wholly in agreement) right up until...

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Originally Posted by Joetaff

its just that im a christian and I dont want any of this stuff so remind me of the occult, b/c then I wouldn't feel right trying to LD.

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Scared of other people's ideas much? That maybe you've been practicing witchcraft and people might find out? Or just that LDing is the devil's work and you'll have to stop?

Open your mind.

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Originally Posted by Joetaff

"I would think that of all places this forum would realize that there is no such thing as an OBe"

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A little presumptuous, eh? You'll never have many lucid dreams assuming you have all the answer like that. And let's say for the sake of argument that OoBE's are real; you've already discounted them in your own mind, without any of the "science" you value to much to back that up. Surely you're aware many Christians believe in OoBE's? especially those "born-again"s I know far too many of, who were "born-again" after an OoBE showed them 'Heaven' or 'the White Light of the Divine' or 'God' or whatever.


If you don't agree with something, just pass over it. Simple enough. But to base your beliefs about lucidity and dreaming on a few fringe people's ideas and opinions? That just seems, well... ignorantly ethnocentric.

As does summing up one's religious beliefs in a single "ism" or "ity". Don't get me wrong, I don't care if you're Christian or Jewish or Hindu or Muslim or Atheist or Spaghettiist (thought I think you should all convert to Discordianism... ;) ), but saying you disagree with something because you're "Christian" seems like a bit of a cop-out without explaining what exactly it is in the theories of OoBE's that makes you so uncomfortable.

As you said in the original post, there is plenty of scientific evidence supporting the less "occult" theories, why not just stick to those, and let the people who do believe in OoBE and AP believe, lest they be criticized for their beliefs, which are no more unfounded than your own?

One could just as easily say "...but with all the science behind the big bang and causality and the finality of death and whatnot that people know around here, why do people still believe in God and Jesus???"

I'm not attacking you, don't take this the wrong way... just trying to flip this around on you so you might understand the problems with your idea... "see where I'm coming from," if you will. It's much easier to discount something you don't believe in and vaguely cite "science" as proof, than it is to open your mind to the possibility that neither you nor science have all the answers... but the latter is a much wiser course of action.

This is going to be a juicy thread, I can tell already... bookmarked. :drool:

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Originally Posted by Shift

provide some scientific evidence and I shall eagerly discuss.

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Im with Shift on this one.

The only problem I have with your "rant" is that OBEs are real. So are UFOs. Neither do any of these phenomenas mean that aliens are stealing our cows or that the devil sucks you out of your body at night.

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Originally Posted by DuB

I'm with you, Joe. Encouraging the discussion of those sorts of things certainly isn't doing much for the public's perception of lucid dreaming. It's a shame.
:pfft:

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I completely agree with you guys on this one.

And I'm sorry but anyone who believes in OBE's or AP.. I've lost all respect for you.

the thing everyone has been talking about on this site isnt wat you are thinking of, but the thing you are thinking of has infact been scientificly proved, a very clever experiment was carried out a while back

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Originally Posted by slash112

the thing everyone has been talking about on this site isnt wat you are thinking of, but the thing you are thinking of has infact been scientificly proved, a very clever experiment was carried out a while back

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What the hell are you talking about man?

You've got me intrigued... now please elaborate...

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Originally Posted by ZotC

What the hell are you talking about man?

You've got me intrigued... now please elaborate...

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He's talking about something that has been scientificly proved, silly!

This "Beyond Dreaming" place sounds pretty radical, can someone give me directions?

And whats all this disdain for "new age" stuff, crystals are pretty cool, right?

As for OBEs, people are going to need to come up with a constant defintion before any productive debate can go on. Whatever that definition comes out to be, it wont include the occult or new age wizarding wizards.

ZotC said everything else I was going to say :(

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Originally Posted by ZmillA

This "Beyond Dreaming" place sounds pretty radical, can someone give me directions?

And whats all this disdain for "new age" stuff, crystals are pretty cool, right?

As for OBEs, people are going to need to come up with a constant defintion before any productive debate can go on. Whatever that definition comes out to be, it wont include the occult or new age wizarding wizards.

ZotC said everything else I was going to say :(

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http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...splay.php?f=19 It's not that hard to find. You should've astral projected and searched for it!

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Originally Posted by Shift

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...splay.php?f=19 It's not that hard to find. You should've astral projected and searched for it!

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Oh my! The first thread was about soul retrieval through lucid dreams :shock:

I think I better stay here :P

you're reluctance to enter that thread only proves that you have lost the most important part of your soul, the part that believes in B.S.

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Originally Posted by ZotC

you're reluctance to enter that thread only proves that you have lost the most important part of your soul, the part that believes in B.S.

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Damn, if that's a part of your soul, then :flyaway::sniper:

Well I did enter the thread and as expected the thread title misrepresented what was actually being discussed.

And Shift, you leave that soul alone http://64.85.165.166/forums/mysmilie...milie_2703.gif

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0823141057.htm

OBE experiment.

Have you ever heard of Near Death Experiences, they count as OBEs? There are so many stories about people having the same story about what happened when they were declared "dead". You should read them, it is so interesting, those stories. My question is to all the people who don't believe in OBEs, have you even looked it up, or did you just close your mind at the thought of a possibility?

Personally, I think it is quite sad for those who say, "OBEs are not real, and if anyone believes them are insane, and I will stay away from those people."

Wow, so just because you do not believe what someone else believes, you declared them insane and will leave them alone just because you do not believe what they believe. That is pretty pathetic to me. It is like saying, you're Atheist, and because I am not that, I'm going to declare you insane, and that I shall stay complete distance from you.

I'm not saying you have to believe in OBEs, and you can stay closed minded. Though, I am saying that you shouldn't go as far as to pushing your own beliefs onto others, and then start calling them names.

But to flip your tactic back at you, are you not then being closed-minded and pathetic by not considering the possibility that OBE's are just False Awakening Lucid Dreams?

I believe in OoBE's as a phenomena of some sort, as I have experienced them myself.

Before I am lumped in with loonies, though, let me say that one OoBE was under the influence of DMT and another was whilst dreaming.

I have certainly experienced the phenomena, but I do not claim that it was anymore than the effects of that oh-so-powerful oil DMT or that even-more-powerful thing we call lucidity.

I also must say that I have read Dr. Strassman's book DMT: The Spirit Molecule several times before trying DMT, and went in with the expectation that I would a) have an OoBE and/or b) encounter "alien" creature (or self-transforming machine elves...).; and as we all know, with hallucinogens, expectation shapes experience.

Did I really leave my body on either of those occasions? I can't say 'no', but I'm inclined not to say 'yes'. Neither felt 'divine', that is, anymore divine than your typical lucid dream or acid trip does. Sure, they were more exciting, as I had never encountered alien creatures on a drug other than salvia, but the excitement was akin to when I first realized I had mastered the ability to fly at will in my lucid dreams: something new and novel, though not necessarily 'holy', 'astral', 'magical', or 'divine'.

Simply put, there is something to OoBEs, but I think to attribute it to Astral Projection without any sort of proof OR logical conception of the concept of an astral- body or -plane is a) foolish, b) stupid, c) religious grasping for explanation or d) all of the above.

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Originally Posted by moonshine

But to flip your tactic back at you, are you not then being closed-minded and pathetic by not considering the possibility that OBE's are just False Awakening Lucid Dreams?

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That could in fact be a possibility. Though, I hear that OBEs are way different than dreams. When I meant closed minded, I meant, you can close off your mind at the idea. Though, I'm saying that people shouldn't go off and declare them insane, stupid, etc. If you think about it, everyone is different. We all have our ethnics etc.

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We all have our ethnics etc.

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I keep mine locked in the shed.

believe what you want.
there really is no such thing as truth so don't let these things get you down.

every experience you have is for your own personal enlightenment, and that goes for any religion.

It's a shame the OP is never going to reply back to all of this...

Do you think we scarred him away?

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Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt

It's a shame the OP is never going to reply back to all of this...

Do you think we scarred him away?

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To be quite honest, I doubt that there was ANYTHING we could have said to bring him around. Once someone ties OBEs and AP to lucid dreaming, especially if they do so with religion, its nearly impossible to separate the two again.

That's true, and very sad.

I don't even know what makes people think like that. I bet they don't do much research on the subject. They just make flat out assumptions. It's quite frustrating.

unfortunately you cannot be Christian and a fan of science.

seeing as though science keeps debunking all their theories.

You can.

I'm one of them. Of course, my beliefs, and my parents for that matter, differ GREATLY from our fellow Christians.

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Originally Posted by HonerableMoUsE

unfortunately you cannot be Christian and a fan of science.

seeing as though science keeps debunking all their theories.

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rofl what kind of nonsense is this?

aha!

To be open minded is all you need!

haha, broad statement.

I was just thinking of creationism and evolution.