Practical Application of LD upon Waking Life

Bah internet broke and had to rewrite this. I apologize if i made any silly mistakes, I'm tired.

Anyway I was thinking about practical applications for LD outside of the normally discussed spectrum.

Basic Idea: Condition yourself whilst in a dream to respond to a certain action with an emotional response, then after several repetitions it should in theory work whilst awake.

Support: Pavlov conditioned dogs to salivate when he rang a bell. (google it for more info)
Stephen LaBerge showed that dream orgasms had real physical effects- so emotions use same bits of brain as when awake
Hypnosis - reentering trances multiple times makes it easier to get 'deeper'.


Expanded Idea: First we must choose an emotion or experience that we want to try and have available to use at any time. I think a familiar state would be easiest first such as ' happy,drunk' but this could with practice possibly be extended to such things as 'intense feelings of bliss,tripping,orgasm'.


Anyway now we have to choose a trigger, i would suggest rubbing the bit of skin between your index finger and thumb. You want something that your not going to do accidentally and in a spot you can consistently hit.
Next we need to associate the trigger with the experience, so in the LD you will believe that rubbing that spot will make you instantly feel drunk. It's worth nothing you want to code a off trigger on the other hand or a different part of your hand. Having the off trigger will allow the next step to be done faster.
You now want to use your trigger to get 'drunk' in the dream, then baseline, then drunk, baseline,dru...


After many repetitions your brain should have developed the neural connections so that when you touch the trigger you will feel drunk regardless of dream or not.

I'm almost certain this will work, how many repetitions are needed? I don't know this unfortunately but i dug this up in regards to learning skills.
'2,400... That's how many repetitions it takes for a movement to become instinctual (according to experts who worked with the British SAS to determine how much training they needed in certain combat techniques).'

I would try this myself but im not having LD's frequently enough to try things like this and they are still rather new so I want to do novel things instead. Anyone who has many LD's should give this a shot.


Hope someone gives it a shot
Best of Luck
FlyFree

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Originally Posted by FlyFree

when you touch the trigger you will feel drunk

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That's so funny :)

To feel drunk in a dream would be difficult, changing feelings isn't easy at all.

But interesting idea.

interesting, id do 'orgasm' so i could never be bored

that makes a lot of sense actually. I too dont have a high enough LD frequency for this to work.

what if someone was so good at this they could program their emotions. all of them. or you could use it to stop yourself from feeling physical pain when you needed to.(maybe?)

that could be used as a drug free solution for people who are depressed.

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Originally Posted by Arutad

That's so funny :)

To feel drunk in a dream would be difficult, changing feelings isn't easy at all.

But interesting idea.

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I feel drunk in my dreams a lot. Sometimes even in my LDs.

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Originally Posted by Banana

interesting, id do 'orgasm' so i could never be bored

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+1

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Originally Posted by Arutad

That's so funny

To feel drunk in a dream would be difficult, changing feelings isn't easy at all.

But interesting idea.

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Originally Posted by John11

I feel drunk in my dreams a lot. Sometimes even in my LDs.

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But how would you do it on purpose, using just your mind to trigger this feeling in a LD? That's what the topic starter is suggesting!

So we do something in a LD, then somehow make it work in waking life?

It actually makes a lot of sense, as long as the response in physically possible (without the use of aid) then this might actually work.
You should devise an experiment with volunteers. It would be interesting to see the results

I can also see how it could help someone that has a particular problem. For example, if you have confidence issues with speaking in public you could use this to your advantage. You can give yourself confidence and the feeling of power through LD and trigger it in waking life.
Also I could also see how this could help people with Phobias.

This is a great idea ! =]

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Originally Posted by mrdeano

You should devise an experiment with volunteers. It would be interesting to see the results

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You'd have to wait a long time, 2,400 repetitions are needed in FlyFree's opinion. :) :) Where would you even get volunteers to have 2,400 LDs just for one single purpose... ;)

First off thanks for taking a look guys.

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Originally Posted by mrdeano

You should devise an experiment with volunteers. It would be interesting to see the results

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If I get enough interest from several people- high frequency LDs - who would be interested in giving up a few weeks of LD's to test this I will.


Now I thank you for your criticism and will address it now.

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Originally Posted by Arutad

But how would you do it on purpose, using just your mind to trigger this feeling in a LD? That's what the topic starter is suggesting!

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This would be done the same way everything in a LD is done, by belief and the strength of your will. Fully expecting the result to occur from touching the trigger. That's why you use a LD to 'program' the response, as we don't have access to those states voluntarily when awake.

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Originally Posted by Arutad

You'd have to wait a long time, 2,400 repetitions are needed in FlyFree's opinion. :) :) Where would you even get volunteers to have 2,400 LDs just for one single purpose... ;)

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Although I assume 2400 repetitions it may well be less for states your very familiar with.

However 2400 repetitions would not require 2400 LD's, as the proccess of activating the 'on' trigger, and then the 'off' trigger could be repeated several times in one LD.

It's for that very reason I say high frequency Lucid dreamers would be best to test it, as they could get the necessary repetitions in a short time.
As an example we will say that the on/off sequence can be done in a min( I think it could be done alot faster as you get comfortable with bringing the state on) In 1hr of LDing throughout the night you have achieved 60 of these repetitions. So you can have 420 repetitions done in 7 LD's. For the naturals who are having over an hour of lucidity time a night they can have the repetitions done in about a month.

Please bear in mind that the process of coding the response will get faster each time, and could easily be brought down to having the on/off sequence done in 20seconds after a few hundred repetitions have been preformed.
At this speed the coding could be done in under two weeks.

Hope that helps

Any more questions I'm more than happy to answer.

Anybody out there who would be up for giving this a shot?

Many Thanks
FlyFree

This is really an amazing post. I think the only people who could do this experiment are very frequent LDers who have more than 3 LDs per night.

I'm not 100% sure on this, as in, It's likely I could be proven wrong, but I just don't see this happening.

Any kind of high or buzz in a dream is soley based off a memory and the effects are nothing but an illusion to consciousness. The altered states that alcohol or marijuana bring on in waking life is not brought on by a memory of being drunk or some type of imaginary habit. I've never seen anyone, ever, at any point in time claim they can bring on the feeling of being high or drunk at will. I'm sure there some crazy people out there who claims they can, but I'm speaking about the general public or anyone with a face, not a "I know a guy who knows a guy" type deal. No one can do this becuase it's cause by chemical reactions to an outside influence. It's not magic, something from the outside world is entering our bodies and is physically causing the abnormalities that make us intoxicated, it's not something you can transfer from an "anything goes" world to a world with rules. All my opinion... and again, I'm very capable of being wrong. =D

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Originally Posted by FlyFree

This would be done the same way everything in a LD is done, by belief and the strength of your will. Fully expecting the result to occur from touching the trigger. That's why you use a LD to 'program' the response, as we don't have access to those states voluntarily when awake.

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Please see the post above from cdde323. That's what I've been trying to say, but he said it much better.

It all boils down to: how do you trigger a certain feeling at will? LDing doesn't grant magical powers. For instance, you may happen to feel drunk in an LD if you started out from a normal dream about being drunk, but let's say you aren't that lucky and feel sober instead. How do you make yourself feel drunk then, with the effort of will only?

Maybe you can give us a working example of what you have in mind.

Once again guys, thanks for the responses.

Ill know take a look at the latest criticisms.

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Originally Posted by cdde323

Any kind of high or buzz in a dream is solely based off a memory and the effects are nothing but an illusion to consciousness. The altered states that alcohol or marijuana bring on in waking life is not brought on by a memory of being drunk or some type of imaginary habit.

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Right then cdde323, I first need to thank you for raising a good point, upon writing the post I had considered something similar to this problem but then forgot about it.

Anyway with regards to replicating substance induced states, I both agree and disagree with your post. I agree that in the dream state the feelings of drunkenness are a product of your memory rather than an actual physiological response to a foreign substance.

However the placebo affect has been documented several times in real life.
I will briefly touch upon one example in relation to alcohol. In this study 2 groups of students were given tonic and lime, One group was told and led to believe they were drinking vodka and lime. The study states the 'vodka' group acted drunk throughout the study.

"When students were told the true nature of the experiment at the completion of the study, many were amazed that they had only received plain tonic, insisting that they had felt drunk at the time."

This leads me to believe that having our brains vividly recreate the memory of such a state whilst in a dream. We can condition ourselves to trigger the same memory in waking life at will. So you won't actually be drunk but for all intents and purposes you might as well be.

Furthermore with regards to certain emotional states I feel that the physiological response can be triggered if our body is capable of creating it naturally. As an example Stephen LaBerge proved that a LD orgasm had real physiological effects.

'The subject reported a lucid dream in which she carried out the experimental task exactly as agreed upon. Data analysis revealed a significant correspondence between her subjective report and all but one of the autonomic measures; during the 15 second orgasm epoch, mean levels for VEMG activity, VPA, SCL, and respiration rate reached their highest values and were significantly elevated compared to means for other REM epochs. Contrary to expectation, heart rate increased only slightly and non-significantly. '

Now im being purely hypothetical now but i would argue that we could safely assume that if a dream orgasm can have such effect being happy or sad in a dream will equally affect us physiologically. Now if this is true and being extremely happy in a LD causes an chemical to be fired in our brains then its very likely that we can condition our body's to repeat this at a trigger of our choice. In the same way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs to salivate when he rang a bell

I'm interested to see what your take is on this cdde323.

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Originally Posted by Arutad

It all boils down to: how do you trigger a certain feeling at will? LDing doesn't grant magical powers. For instance, you may happen to feel drunk in an LD if you started out from a normal dream about being drunk, but let's say you aren't that lucky and feel sober instead. How do you make yourself feel drunk then, with the effort of will only?

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Arutad I read your post two ways, the first I believe I have already answered above. Ill answer as if it's the other now.

When in a lucid dream and you see a door, you instantly know that it must go somewhere, you open it and VOILA your taken somewhere different from your current location. Why does this happen? It happens because you expect the door to take you somewhere. Your brain has been conditioned to know doors take you places so you fully believe that it will.

However when you start to experiment with more advanced dream control such as flying, teleporting or breathing underwater you may not succeed at first Why not? Purely because you don't fully believe it would work. As you gain confidence in knowing you control the dreamscape so do you control these powers, simply because you believe you can.

So in answer to your question, to feel drunk at the touch of body part you must believe it will work with the same certainty that doors lead somewhere.

Think I covered the points you both raised, if not don't hesitate to tell me. Your helping develop what has the potential to be a very practical idea.

Hope this isn't too long a post. Really hope to hear back from you guys.
Still hoping for interest from naturals.


References
Placebo affect with regards to alcohol :
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/...2/pr021224.cfm
Stephen LaBerge's study on dream orgasm- halfway down page:
http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html
Pavlov's Dogs - a clear overview:
http://psychology.about.com/od/class...vlovs-dogs.htm

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Originally Posted by FlyFree

I'm interested to see what your take is on this cdde323.

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That's like handing me a crossword puzzle. I warn you, I'm good at being a pessimist, over analyzing and nit picking =D

<begin wikipedia knowledge>

Alcohol raises the levels of dopamine in your brain, fortunately, a lot of things in life have this same effect. Including just plain ol' thought...

Dopamine has a controlling hold over a lot of the body/mind functions that are altered with alcohol consumption. It seems reasonable that with the power of thought, you should be able to produce some and/or minor effects of alcohol. I think that's where it ends though... The students were in college, they were being offered free liquor in a bar setting and they were in a group of their peers. So many different factors were contributing to the meme of getting drunk, it makes sense a placebo could result in a huge spike of dopamine. Perform that same experiment with a more "general public" sampling and keep them separated, I have a feeling you'd get vastly different results.

I can keep on going (dunno if I should.)

A sort of counter-punch to you "drunk button" idea is that dopamine also controls your reward system. By default, you are rewarded by good... unexpected things. This is why a good song will truly never be as good as the first time you heard it, those virgin ears caused a huge surge in dopamine and you simply aren't programmed to like something over and over and over.

If you, being very enthusiastic with this idea, went through the dream time to do this yourself. NEVER testing it in waking life until that one day you had completed all 2400 repetitions. On that day, all your buddies are surrounding you, you're in a bar, everyone is drunk except you and... You press the "drunk button". You might uhmmm... crack a smile. (Haha... I'm just kidding =D) No, you might feel something, but I don't expect you to feel what I think you are picturing in your head. There might be a dopamine spike because of all the built up faith and anticipation you've put into this meme. I don't expect it to work the next day though... or any time in the future.

Now! If it did work and was repeatable, I would totally be the first person in line to invest his time. I'd press the drunk button when I got out of the car to pump gas... Let's just hope I would remember to turn it off. :lol:

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Originally Posted by FlyFree

Bah internet broke and had to rewrite this. I apologize if i made any silly mistakes, I'm tired.

Anyway I was thinking about practical applications for LD outside of the normally discussed spectrum.

Basic Idea: Condition yourself whilst in a dream to respond to a certain action with an emotional response, then after several repetitions it should in theory work whilst awake.

Support: Pavlov conditioned dogs to salivate when he rang a bell. (google it for more info)
Stephen LaBerge showed that dream orgasms had real physical effects- so emotions use same bits of brain as when awake
Hypnosis - reentering trances multiple times makes it easier to get 'deeper'.


Expanded Idea: First we must choose an emotion or experience that we want to try and have available to use at any time. I think a familiar state would be easiest first such as ' happy,drunk' but this could with practice possibly be extended to such things as 'intense feelings of bliss,tripping,orgasm'.


Hope someone gives it a shot
Best of Luck
FlyFree

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I do this all the time and have since I was a little kid. That's how I reherse for everything.

"Basic Idea: Condition yourself whilst in a dream to respond to a certain action with an emotional response, then after several repetitions it should in theory work whilst awake."

It works for everything from learning new yoga moves to preparing for a lecture. It's great for overcoming fears.

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Originally Posted by cdde323

That's like handing me a crossword puzzle. I warn you, I'm good at being a pessimist, over analyzing and nit picking =D

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I appreciate your thoughts. I don't think discussing it is going to get us any further though. I feel we will go round in circles as I still think that its possible to condition a response. I do think what your saying holds truth however, it's just I've seen how strongly certain responses get conditioned in day to day life.

Well when I get to the level where I can try this ill bump this topic after trying ;)


Would be good if someone would consider trying this though.

FlyFree

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Originally Posted by FlyFree

I appreciate your thoughts. I don't think discussing it is going to get us any further though.

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Fair enough, agree to disagree. :)

Not trying to turn the tides against you, just stating my opinion. Please do update the thread though... It's an interesting topic.

Outside of being "drunk" at will, I do think your idea has merit with things that can be supplied naturally by the body. Perhaps the feeling of being happy and the feelings of being sad... Psychologist have been able to activate these feelings through hypnosis and people have the ability to take a deep breath, step back from a situation and clear their mind... this alone will cause a feeling of relief and happiness. So maybe something along these lines... I don't know. Sorry, I'll shut up now. :)

Keep us updated!

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Originally Posted by cdde323

Not trying to turn the tides against you, just stating my opinion. Please do update the thread though... It's an interesting topic.

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Thats not a problem. It was an interesting discussion. I just don't feel we gonna get much more out of it. I'll update it when I get to the level of trying it - which will be a while.

Have fun and thanks again