Another "false" lucid?

My dream is here. If you don't want to read the whole thing, just read the last paragraph of the dream section.

I noticed I was dreaming, and immediately tried spinning around, which improved the clarity a bit. I almost ran and started trying to do dream things, but I stopped myself and told myself I had time. I then tried rubbing my hands together, and very quickly experienced the "floating out of a dream" feeling that woke me up.

I definitely did not become lucid from releasing I was dreaming. When I spun and things became a bit clearer, I don't think I was lucid. I believe that's similar to the time I found out I was dreaming and it became easier to run. My subconscious brain is sort of saying "remember what's supposed to happen? Let's make that happen", and doing what it thinks should happen when I do these things.

HOWEVER, when I rubbed my hands together, I felt nothing, but immediately woke up.

Spoiler for Theories:

My theory is that I became lucid, or was becoming lucid, for a second, which woke me up. My theory on the wake-up is that my conscious brain thinks I should be awake at 4:00 PM anyway, so once my conscious brain woke up, my body sort of got into wake-up mode anyway.

Please only read my theories after formulating your own; that way, I can avoid people getting influenced by mine.

But I don't really have the experience to make any concrete theories, so does anybody else have any ideas as to what happened? Whether it was a false lucid the entire time, or if I became lucid at the end?

Thanks

Are you sure you have the correct definition of lucid?

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I noticed I was dreaming

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You were lucid.
When you know you are dreaming, you have attained lucidity. No matter how vivid or powerful it is, it's lusid.

All this 'false lucidity' junk is just a bunch of misinformation, and over-complicating things. It doesn't have to be rocket science.

You are doubting.

as I can see, you are the one who is saying that didn't feel lucid nor any change.
the moment you rubbed your hands and woke up doesn't mean anything.
I mean, you didn't have time to become lucid on that little lapse, so no, itsn't a lucid dream.

as I can see, it's like you were acting in auto-pilot mode (non-lucid)
I told to you, the moment you become lucid , no matter the level of lucidity or clarity, you will come to this forum and say "Hey! I had a lucid dream!"

what's your reality check? and how do you do it?

bye!


EDIT:

no-name is right, but is wrong too.
the definition of lucid is "KNOW YOU ARE DREAMING" (when you know it YOU HAVE NO DOUBT)
but, as I can see, you only "noticed" that you were dreaming(this happened to me a lot, I'm in a dream, I "notice" I am dreaming, and start to do stabilization techniques and all of that, but I'm not lucid)
I mean, it was part of the dream that you "noticed" you were dreaming.
The point is to realize that when you notice you are dreaming, you MUST REALLY NOTICE you are dreaming, not still dreaming about that. you understand?

and, no-Name, False Lucidity is not misinformation, is just "dreaming that you are lucid", so non-lucid
if not happened to you then doesn't mean is junk and that's false, it happened to a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by no-Name

Are you sure you have the correct definition of lucid?

You were lucid.
When you know you are dreaming, you have attained lucidity. No matter how vivid or powerful it is, it's lusid.

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Arguments of this nature have been had before. My definition of "lucid" is "conscious". It may be incorrect usage, but it's rather common usage. I was "lucid", but not "conscious".


Mariano: How do I avoid doubt? How do I get rid of something my brain tells me is true? I was going to reality check after trying the stabilization techniques. My reality check is usually to plug my nose and check if I'm breathing, and to check my hands. My last reality check is to try and do something that can only be done in a dream, like turn on a light with my mind.

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Originally Posted by Mariano

You are doubting.

as I can see, you are the one who is saying that didn't feel lucid nor any change.
the moment you rubbed your hands and woke up doesn't mean anything.
I mean, you didn't have time to become lucid on that little lapse, so no, itsn't a lucid dream.

as I can see, it's like you were acting in auto-pilot mode (non-lucid)
I told to you, the moment you become lucid , no matter the level of lucidity or clarity, you will come to this forum and say "Hey! I had a lucid dream!"

what's your reality check? and how do you do it?

bye!

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...I'm sorry, and I mean no disrespect, but that's absolutely ridiculous.

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you didn't have time to become lucid on that little lapse

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How can someone not have enough time to realize they are dreaming? He was lucid from the start.

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I told to you, the moment you become lucid , no matter the level of lucidity or clarity, you will come to this forum and say "Hey! I had a lucid dream!"

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Again, ridiculous. It's not always a vivid thing. :\

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Originally Posted by RobotGymnast

Arguments of this nature have been had before. My definition of "lucid" is "conscious". It may be incorrect usage, but it's rather common usage. I was "lucid", but not "conscious".

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So you're telling me that your definition of lucid is different from everyone else.That is most definitely incorrect.

no-name is right, but is wrong too.
the definition of lucid is "KNOW YOU ARE DREAMING" (when you know it YOU HAVE NO DOUBT)
but, as I can see, you only "noticed" that you were dreaming(this happened to me a lot, I'm in a dream, I "notice" I am dreaming, and start to do stabilization techniques and all of that, but I'm not lucid)
I mean, it was part of the dream that you "noticed" you were dreaming.
The point is to realize that when you notice you are dreaming, you MUST REALLY NOTICE you are dreaming, not still dreaming about that. you understand?

and, no-Name, False Lucidity is not misinformation, is just "dreaming that you are lucid", so non-lucid
if not happened to you then doesn't mean is junk and that's false, it happened to a lot of people.

NN, don't even bother wasting your time with these two. I've argued about exactly the same thing with them in 2 other topics. They don't know what they are talking about.

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Originally Posted by no-Name

So you're telling me that your definition of lucid is different from everyone else.That is most definitely incorrect.

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No. Many, many people have this definition. I can easily be aware that I'm dreaming, or that I'm omnipotent, without being conscious. I am trying to achieve consciousness, not lucidity. Lucidity's very, very easy to achieve.

you guys are being stupid. if he wants to call a dream where he dreamed he was lucid and actually wasn't, a semi-lucid or a false lucid, he can. you have different definitions, nobody is wrong.

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Originally Posted by RobotGymnast

No. Many, many people have this definition. I can easily be aware that I'm dreaming, or that I'm omnipotent, without being conscious. I am trying to achieve consciousness, not lucidity. Lucidity's very, very easy to achieve.

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*facepalm*

So you agree that it's not a false lucid then? Good, then change the topic title into: HOW CAN I GET BETTER DREAMCONTROL? Because that's exactly what ALL your stupid topics are about. I'm done with you two now. From now on I'll officially refrain from posting in any topics created by Robotgymnast or Mariano.

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Originally Posted by Mariano

and, no-Name, False Lucidity is not misinformation, is just "dreaming that you are lucid", so non-lucid
if not happened to you then doesn't mean is junk and that's false, it happened to a lot of people.

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terms like "false lucidity" just complicate things. Sure it may be something we've all experienced one time or another....but just call it a normal dream to simplify things for the rest of this community. No one wants to accept terminology like that because it only adds to the complexity. Pretty soon there's going to be false lucid induction techniques if we keep crap like this up.

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Originally Posted by XeL

*facepalm*

So you agree that it's not a false lucid then? Good, then change the topic title into: HOW CAN I GET BETTER DREAMCONTROL? Because that's exactly what ALL your stupid topics are about. I'm done with you two now. From now on I'll officially refrain from posting in any topics created by Robotgymnast or Mariano.

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As I said, I'm using the term "lucid" as oppose to "conscious". If I meant "lucid" by definition, then yes, I would agree it was not a false lucid. If I used "lucid" just to mean "aware that I was dreaming", then "false lucid" would only be possible when awake. However, I would like to establish that I was not conscious during this dream, and am wondering about specifics and theories as to why. My dream control itself is rather good, but, as I said, NOT WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR. I want to be conscious.

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terms like "false lucidity" just complicate things. Sure it may be something we've all experienced one time or another....but just call it a normal dream to simplify things for the rest of this community. No one wants to accept terminology like that because it only adds to the complexity. Pretty soon there's going to be false lucid induction techniques if we keep crap like this up.

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OMGZORS! I INDUCED FALSE LUCIDZ ONCEZ!
.. I see what you mean :P
All kidding aside, I see your point, but I can sort of see Mariano's too

sorry, I don't want you to fight.

robotgymnast, if it's my fault giving you that definition, then really excuse me.
Lucid dreaming is becoming aware that you are dreaming.

Lucidity and Conscious go in the same hand.
Non-lucid = Unconscious (auto-pilot mode)
Lucid = Conscious (you know...)

XEL:

he is not lucid dreaming, he is still dreaming being non-lucid, and he knows that, because when he talks about he controlling his dreams he talks like he is unconscious and not a BEATIFUL experience like a lucid dream is.

I would say that control doesn't mean too much in a dream, because if you are controlling the dream, you can do it in a conscious or in a unconscious(auto-pilot mode) way.

there are non-lucid dreams without control
there are non-lucid dreams with control(you have unconscious control)
there are lucid dreams without control(of certain things, like flying, also walking, or talking...)
there are lucid dreams with control(have fun! this is conscious control)

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From now on I'll officially refrain from posting in any topics created by Robotgymnast or Mariano.

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that won't help too much, but you are free of doing anything.

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terms like "false lucidity" just complicate things.

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are you sure?
I don't think so, it's just a new term.
then if new terms complicate things, why do we call "nightmares" to bad dreams?
why don't we call them just bad dreams..?
is the same thing...

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Pretty soon there's going to be false lucid induction techniques if we keep crap like this up.

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no there is not going to, a False Lucid Dream is just a non-lucid dream, with different feelings, equally as a vivid non-lucid dream, or a non-lucid nightmare , they are still non-lucid.
People just have to learn to differenciate "being aware of dreaming", and "dreaming that being aware of dreaming"
and that difference can only be felt, not too explained.....

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Originally Posted by Mariano

robotgymnast, if it's my fault giving you that definition, then really excuse me. Lucid dreaming is becoming aware that you are dreaming.

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No, you didn't, but thank you. Although my dreams are technically lucid, they still remain not conscious.

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Originally Posted by Mariano

are you sure?
I don't think so, it's just a new term.
then if new terms complicate things, why do we call "nightmares" to bad dreams?
why don't we call them just bad dreams..?
is the same thing...

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I'm pretty sure he was making a bit of an exaggeration, Mariano.

I still cannot wake my conscious mind. I still have doubt, which, I believe, is my main problem. How do I get rid of doubt?

I think we can only draw one conclusion from all posts I've seen from Mariano and Robotgymnast... They possess some sort of inhuman power that is beyond our understanding. They should both be sent to a sleep lab immediately for their extraordinary abilities!

RobotGymnast you are not reading me.

Lucidity and Conscious go in the same hand.
Non-lucid = Unconscious (auto-pilot mode)(Conscious mode OFF)
Lucid = Conscious (you know...)(Conscious mode ON)


I said to you what's happening...
by the way, see this http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...83#post1139883
It could help you understand what I'm saying.

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I still cannot wake my conscious mind. I still have doubt, which, I believe, is my main problem. How do I get rid of doubt?

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about this...
when your conscious mind wake in a dream...you become lucid, or viceversa...
when you become lucid you wake you conscious mind..
WHY?
because in dreams, consciousness and lucidity is the same!
"hey I had a Lucid/Conscious dream last night" this means he was aware that she/he was dreaming.

doubt?
doubt is just a conclusion, when you become lucid you will have no doubt about it, it's not about changing doubt to become lucid!...

so, again, you are having non-lucid dreams, with control.
you are not lucid.

practice all the methods here, reality check, just do everything to become lucid.

what you are having are simply non-lucid dreams in where the plot is based on you knowing you are dreaming (or False Lucid Dreams), this means, YOU(and your actions)are still controlled by the dream, that means, again, being non-lucid.

so, one last ime, you are having non-lucid dreams with control(you have unconscious control)
which is something that already almost everybody of us have in dreams (while flying, killing, etc being non-lucid)

practice lucidity, once you do that, you will be able to furthermore control your dreams easily(if you can do it non-lucid, I'm sure that lucid will be easier and more satisfying)

bye

EDIT : AH!

Xel : you are acting like a child, if you are not going to say something that merely has to be readed, then don't write/say anything. at least, try to help robotgymnast, instead of closing your mind, blocking your eyes and ears.
if you never experienced a False Lucid Dream that doesn't mean doesn't exists....

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Originally Posted by XeL

I think we can only draw one conclusion from all posts I've seen from Mariano and Robotgymnast... They possess some sort of inhuman power that is beyond our understanding. They should both be sent to a sleep lab immediately for their extraordinary abilities!

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Actually, sorry to disappoint you, but I have a great respect for their posts, as they seem to mirror my own way of thinking mostly. Ok, I'm still trying to get my head around the different descriptions of what "being Lucid in a dream" actually is.

My own stance is similar to that of Mariano, in that to be truly lucid you have to consciously know that you're dreaming , and not just be in a dream and see something strange and then declare " I'm dreaming". This could just be the unconscious mind deciding that statement.

Think of these two definitions of lucidity and then decide which makes more sense.

1. The state of being aware that one is dreaming; The state of being in a lucid dream.

or my prefered one.

2.free from obscurity and easy to understand; the comprehensibility of clear expression
a lucid state of mind; not confused

Xel: first of all, that ban on posting in threads created by us lasted a VERY long time. That must've been at least a few minutes.

I don't know to which "inhuman power" you refer, but.. I guess I'm flattered. Thanks.


Mariano/Elkfazer: Exactly. I can say "I'm dreaming, because I get that from my intuition. However, I fail to consciously grasp what it really means, despite my gut having an understanding of it (which is my subconscious mind), so it's just really meaningless words. It usually leads to something changing in the dream that my subconscious mind expects to change if it were lucid. I think, if I spent long enough in the dream after declaring that I was dreaming, I would become really lucid, but after a minute of frantic RCing, attempts to stabilize, and experimentation, I wake up. Again, I personally feel like my conscious mind is starting to wake up and get used to the dream, which wakes me up. But I didn't really become lucid lucid, just sort of.. halfway there.

Although the plot in my dreams isn't really based on me realizing I'm dreaming, it still feels to be more of an intuitive realization as opposed to a logical, conscious one. And intuition is mainly based on the subconscious mind. I'm "aware" that I'm dreaming, but I don't know I'm dreaming... if that makes sense. What I'm trying to get at is that I can feel it, but not really know it, prove it, or understand it.

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Originally Posted by RobotGymnast

Mariano/Elkfazer: Exactly. I can say "I'm dreaming, because I get that from my intuition. However, I fail to consciously grasp what it really means, despite my gut having an understanding of it (which is my subconscious mind), so it's just really meaningless words. It usually leads to something changing in the dream that my subconscious mind expects to change if it were lucid. I think, if I spent long enough in the dream after declaring that I was dreaming, I would become really lucid, but after a minute of frantic RCing, attempts to stabilize, and experimentation, I wake up. Again, I personally feel like my conscious mind is starting to wake up and get used to the dream, which wakes me up. But I didn't really become lucid lucid, just sort of.. halfway there.

Although the plot in my dreams isn't really based on me realizing I'm dreaming, it still feels to be more of an intuitive realization as opposed to a logical, conscious one. And intuition is mainly based on the subconscious mind. I'm "aware" that I'm dreaming, but I don't know I'm dreaming... if that makes sense. What I'm trying to get at is that I can feel it, but not really know it, prove it, or understand it.

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I see where you're coming from now I think! if you have a lot of these dreams where you say to yourself "I'm Dreaming!" then it must be very frustrating to not have the results you want and stay in the dream longer. Can you tell me when you're frantically running around doing the RC's etc, does it still seem like you're on autopilot doing them? Or does the fact that you're seemingly lucid at the time just confuse things for you and you can't quite convince yourself that you're in the dream state?

Even a non-lucid RC ( when it works correctly ) should kick-in the logic centre of your brain to then allow you to do a fully conscious one as a back-up. I'm kinda guessing a bit there though, because I've only had the non-lucid RC's myself that failed at the time and made me more confused of where I really was. I'd love to see a non-lucid RC work for me though just to prove if the consciousness "wakes up" at that moment.

Well I wouldn't say I'm on autopilot, I say to myself "right, I'm dreaming. That means I'm supposed to RC". Then I try one, but I'm having trouble getting RCs to work (I can't really get myself to believe something WRONG is going to happen). I haven't yet RCd by trying something blatantly impossible, like trying to turn on the light with my mind (I mean, I've done impossible things, I've just never done them with the intention of trying to prove I'm dreaming).

When I become "lucid" (notice the air quotes), my dream brain goes "hey, it worked." for a second, and then, immediately, I realize that it didn't REALLY change the dream, that it just sort of changed a little thing because I thought it should (which I believe is the work of my unconscious mind).

Again, my non-lucid RCs don't work correctly. They tell me I'm awake, despite the fact that I tell myself I'm dreaming. Again, I find it hard to believe the wrong thing intentionally ><. I have to say that if I managed to stay in my dream for long enough, I could probably get to lucidity.

I was going to post my stand on this and lock it, but you guys need PMs. No amount of posting in here is going to help.

Please don't make me have to lock this. Let's keep our tempers in check alright?

Some have already stated the correct definitions, but let me reiterate:

A Lucid Dream: A dream in which the dreamer is aware that they are dreaming.

This DOES NOT mean the dreamer necessarily has to have control. On the flip side, you can dream about flying and shooting lightning out of your fingers, but if you don't know it's a dream, IT'S NOT A LUCID.

Vividness, control, and all that other jazz have no direct connections to lucidity. Regular dreams can be really vivid, lucid dreams can be dull, and vice-versa. Of course, once you ARE lucid, you can use certain techniques to help IMPROVE those dream aspects.

Consciousness: an alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation.

Consciousness is a little more tricky to define, but that gets the main idea. I am ALWAYS conscious in my regular dreams, meaning I know what I am doing and make decisions based on my situation. In fact, I'm gonna say that each and every one of you is conscious during your dreams. And I stand behind that statement. Maybe your definition of "consciousness" differs, that's okay.

You're conscious while awake right? If not, go see a doctor. Now, in dreams, you experience the events and sights just as if it were real. How is this possible if you are not "conscious" (going by my definition earlier)?

Please, guys, don't go spreading misinformation about "false lucids".

Alright, then let me sum up my questions:

I'm often lucid, but can't get the dream to be more stable, vivid, or controllable. I have tried the spinning stabilization and the breath RC, and neither has worked for me. My subconscious mind simply does what it think should happen when I try these things, and nothing else. How do I make my dreams more vivid, stable, and controllable? How do I wake up my consciousness in my dreams? I was under the impression that consciousness would come with stabilization and vividness, but you seem to be implying that it doesn't. Is that right?

*Sigh*

The fact that you are experiencing the dream AUTOMATICALLY means you are CONSCIOUS. If you were not conscious, you would have no recollection of it WHAT SO EVER.

Other than that, all you really need now is experience. With practise, things will get better over time, I guarantee you.

Don't give up.

oh, I have no intention of giving up ;D . That's just not me.
But what about those people that don't have that hazy "dream logic" in their dreams? Can you get rid of dream logic in favour of your waking mind sort of taking its place? Does that come with stability and vividness? I'd like to have my waking mind in dreams.

Other than that, thanks for your help. I think your last two posts have pretty much summed up everything and added a bit of information xD.