Purpose of Lucid Dreaming

Well, you illustrated my point very well, however, you don't understand how. Predication is the inverse function of abstraction, a first principle of language. How many errors in reasoning are represented in your words? If one cannot catch the blatant ones, the subtile ones are hopelessly lost.

In my early studies in lucid state, I once asked about subjective identification with reality, what its purpose was. The answer I recieved was this:

I was in state, suddely there was a bright light, so bright I could not close my eyes, it simply flooded me to the point it terrified me. I tried to run, but could not close it out, suddely the light dimmed and I could see flowers.

Just like any environmental acquisition system of the body, the mind can only process so much information at one time, including abstracting what is true--that level represents that minds ability. Take the human muscular system, a child cannot manipulate what a teen can, nor can a teen what a full grown man can. The human mind is the same. That is one of the reasons why, when one comes to understand, that they spend a life in study.

Each level of understanding respects corresponding levels of beauty also. The maturing of ability is the material of psychology.

When I was young, I because aware of the flood of contradictions in our books, however, I did not take sides, thinking I could judge which was true which was false, instead I set out to find the foundation of truth itself, and to learn how to effect and maintain it. That is why I am engaged in various projects and how I was able to solve such problems as the Delian Problem and others that have been considered impossible to solve. just simple work.

I have learned that telling someone what is true or not is pointless, the best one can do is develope and teach the craft of mind and then let others weild it as best as they can. No amount of teaching can overcome innate biological limitations. Language is a peculiar craft, not a science. It is peculiar because it is a craft that everyone seems to believe that they excell at, even though they cannot tell you the foundation upon which it rests.

Question of the day: Is truth something one finds or is it the results of something one crafts?

I find it odd, that even in movies set hundreds of years in the future, the question "What is truth." cannot be answered.

Truth is the state of being true.
Two or more things are said to be true, when by some means of comparison, no difference is found between them.

Ok, so one of its meaningful uses for you is to get answers, right? The other one to affect human will, I guess.

Anyway, why assume that controling a dream to have fun is not meaningful and can give you answers?

One controls the self. In all my years of lucid dreaming, I found that one cannot possibly control the dream. We control the self in the dream. Controlling the dream means there is no possibility of learning. I don't think you understand the implications of your ideas. You turn the state into no more than recall and imagination, and it is far more than that.

Secondly, I have seen things that came to pass, terrible things I wish never happened.
Third, I am alive today, when I should have been killed by my own stupidity over 30 years ago, had not my teacher stepped in.

There is a future, hard and long for man, if we survive.

Hi Philosopher..

I completely agree with your statements about so-called dream control. IMO true LD control is over the dreaming self, not the dream scenario.

A question: where does the ego fit into all this? It seems to me that LDing can be counterproductive in that success therein can breed bigheadedness in some, if not most. In my experience the ego is the biggest obstacle to knowledge.

Any thoughts?

One of the most interesting things about the way psychology is imagined by many, that they divide themselves into multiple parts. The biggest obstacle is ourselves as a whole. We have a job to perform, like every environmental acquisition system of the body. Yet, we are the youngest and are not completely developed yet. Ego, as you call it will eventually fade away because as you become more capable, your psychology naturally changes.

A great deal of what happens in the lucid dreamstate is aimed at modifying your emotional responses.

And, the human mind learns by example also, that is one of the reasons I do the free audio books and ebooks of the translations of Plato. We learn to think by example also. You might even learn that Socrates himself was familiar with lucid dreaming. Plato made some mistakes, some very big ones-at least for our time, maybe not for his, but he is still one of the best.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

Those who display interest in the state for any other reason than to attain to the full functionality of the human mind, are frankly, uninteresting.

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Frankly, I find those who attempt to dress their own ideas under the guise of objectivity - especially while needlessly insulting other schools of thought - interesting...but not in a good way. :-?

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

The majority are easily amused.

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You say that as if your muses are of some objectively higher purpose/quality/importance than anyone else's. Being "hard to please" is not inherently a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

One can divide a living organism by its environmental acquisition systems--those systems of the organism which must acquire something from the environment, process that which it has acquired and produce that which maintains and promotes the life of the organism. --

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This is what I find boring - the notion that humans should reduce their self-image to that of machines - the idea that "you must do this with your life" or "unless you utilize your mind in this way, you're going against what 'nature' intended you to do."

To me, that is like saying "unless you are active, and keep yourself in peak, physical condition, you are misusing your time in your body." I think a part of what makes us great is because we don't have to follow a certain "school of thought" (which is all that idea really is) on how to utilize our time and our bodies. Our lives are our own, and what we take joy in (and how we use our bodies) is really of no more or less "value" than anyone else. Value, as I'm sure you know, is subjective.

Knowing more about the physiology of your mind does not make your time with it any more "valuable" than anyone else's time with their own. Sure, you may think it is, but (while understandable) it's just bias.

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If Lucid dreaming could accomplish no more than mental masturbation, it had no value, if, on the other hand during its use one's psychology was developed it had great value. How one uses it, just like any tool, determines what one can do with it.

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Value to whom?

If I was someone who wasn't interested in the inner-workings of my own mind, and was more interested in the aesthetics of lucid dreaming, my interest is of less 'value' than yours? How do you figure that? Sure, what you get out of the experience is going to be different, but I'd like to hear more about how you think it would be objectively 'better', or 'more valuable' to anyone but yourself.

(Hadn't had time to read the whole thread yet, so I'm sorry if I'm rehashing on anything that's already been discussed or cleared up.)

Exactly. Oneironaut says it perfectly.

Human biology is sometimes self correcting, like in my case. Eventualy my ears got too big to be covered by my mouth.

I must say that there are some other uses for LD's than full neural potential. One must remember that the brain dreams almost every time (or most of the time) it loses contact with the senses. The brain craves stimulation, and it will make up its own if need be. LD's are merely the conscious mind being aware of and maybe interacting with the dream. The value is up to the individual who has discovered lucid dreaming, and to none other.

Why does it have to be all business, anyway? Why does everything have to have a task and perform it constantly? With all the crap that occurs in one's life, having time to step away from reality and have some fun would be welcome. There doesn't have to be a reason. What about all the people that are oblivious to this? Are they idiots for not trying to reach their full mental potential? No!

The human mind is very complex; we have never truly understood it, and may never will. Yet a reason has to be tacked on and a purpose found for everything it does? I say that we should be happy with what we have found, and have some fun with it. Where else can you break the laws of physics like it's nothing? Like I said before, sometimes a person just has to have some fun away from reality. The world is cruel, and humans have the ability to take a break from it and do whatever they please.

I'm all for efficiency, but taking a business approach to this is like the industrial revolution vs. today for the workers. 14 hour days may produce a lot, but a person can only be pushed so far before they crack. People need a repose of some kind for almost everything. For example, a person might like a particular food, but after eating only that for a while, they get burned out and start to dislike it. Moderation is key.

It should be no argument that lucid dreaming should be used for recreation as well as self exploration. Whatever is interesting to the user is all that really matters. I'm very excited to explore both sides of this, as I love the human mind and everything to do with it, and exploring my own synapses is the most magical adventure anyone could ever have I think.

It seems like most repliers to this thread are in consensus that there is no "true" purpose for lucid dreaming. It is whatever the individual makes of it. Asking what the purpose of lucid dreaming is is the same as asking, "What's the meaning of life?" Some might tell you there is no purpose to to life, since matter and energy are all that exist. Others may tell you that the purpose of all life is to reproduce. Another group may say that religion is the purpose of life. There can be no right answers to such questions, and I find it rather hubristic to attempt to answer this sort of question in such an absolute manner. It's fine to have your own opinion on such an issue, but your thoughts are no more correct than anyone else's, so don't make them out to be.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

One controls the self. In all my years of lucid dreaming, I found that one cannot possibly control the dream. We control the self in the dream. Controlling the dream means there is no possibility of learning. I don't think you understand the implications of your ideas. You turn the state into no more than recall and imagination, and it is far more than that.

Secondly, I have seen things that came to pass, terrible things I wish never happened.
Third, I am alive today, when I should have been killed by my own stupidity over 30 years ago, had not my teacher stepped in.

There is a future, hard and long for man, if we survive.

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Actually, I never control the "dream" I only control my body within a dream, you assume way too much about people, you know? You also remind me of PE, thats good.

Also, what does precognition have to do with this? I take it that that part is the more meaningful part for you,but some people see that as a curse, or simply false, different concepts of reality, perspective and circumstances I guess, you didn't answer my question though, why looking out for self enjoyment is bad?

I do not believe in precognition. There is, one might say, a definition of sentience. As the purpose of the human mind is to effect human will, when you learn of things to come, and they do happen, you are learning the will of another. It is a form of communication. Unlike those who believe in relation to self when it comes to time, I simply refer to a given definition. And, learning of things to come is a curse, it means that we do not yet have the will to forge our own destiny.

Lucid dreaming is a learning environment. If you progress enough, you may enter a "prophetic stage" even be able to close your eyes and see when awake. But like all things, it is a question, and an understanding is to be had. You will not progress if you do not understand it.

I, myself, have left off for the most part, because of what I have learned has provided me with more than enough direction in study to last beyond my life or ability to develope.

Man looks for intelligent life in the Universe, however, since it is right under our nose, we demonstrate that we are not intelligent enough to see it.

This thread is really great.

I got into lucid dreaming because I realized I don't really understand myself that well and figured that since dreams are like a window into your mind, I would be able to understand myself and my underlying motives better if I could remember my dreams more precisely and more importantly be able to understand what they mean and why I dreamed them.

I think if you simply get into lucid dreaming to have fun, you will probably get bored before you make enough progress. Use the fun of lucid dreaming as a motivator, but have deeper underlying motives for wanting to lucid dream.

One of the most important things about any learning environment, especially lucid dreaming is being able to take critique. You will be critiqued in the state, and often it will be harsh. One will learn that an insult is not being called stupid, but being stupid is the insult to the self and everyone else we try to force our stupidity upon. Whatever the teacher is in the state, it is engaged in trying to change the very foundation of our psychology, to strenthen it and put it on the right path--this emotional training is very hard, but very much needed by us.

I came to LDing to do and experience things impossible to the limits set by reality. And while LDing can be used to explore the human mind, it is not and should not be the only purpouse. It is fun to break the shakles of reality and fly for a change. And had I mentioned fun? To expirence such sensations is a joy to most, and to forget that takes away the simple joy of it.

So explore all you want, but never forget that breaking shakles and flying has its own usefulness and purpose.

What hgld1234 said.

Is an A not an upside down V with a line in the middle?

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

One of the most important things about any learning environment, especially lucid dreaming is being able to take critique. You will be critiqued in the state, and often it will be harsh. One will learn that an insult is not being called stupid, but being stupid is the insult to the self and everyone else we try to force our stupidity upon.

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I like that statement right there, Philosopher. I like that.


Back to the rest of the topic: I feel you've not answered all of our questions, but rather found interesting ways to evade them. On page 1 of the thread, I asked you the following questions that remain unanswered: 1) "may I ask what you believe that job is, and how lucid dreaming fits into that job?"; 2) "However, your original statement of oneironauts (current or prospective) being "uninteresting" if they seek anything less than "full functionality of the human mind" with lucid dreaming means that it should only be used to its fullest extent. [...] Suppose someone just wants to use it every now and then to have a little nonsensical fun? Nothing wrong with that, is there?"; 3) Walms' question of "I will ask again then, what is the job of the human mind?". You skipped over my post regarding that last question to respond to MoSh's post.

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Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

Human biology is sometimes self correcting, like in my case. Eventualy my ears got too big to be covered by my mouth.

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I see that post was an obvious stab at Oneironaut's lengthy response to your thoughts. I don't think you gave Oneironaut a fair shake - he has valid thoughts there, many of which I've already touched on to some small degree, either in the form of a statement or of a question that you've evaded. You have interesting thoughts, Philosopher, and I really think you have something to teach, so I ask of you: won't you just give us a straight answer to some of our earlier questions? Or at the very least admit you made a statement that wasn't true, if that is the case? If it isn't, I can't imagine why else you'd dodge our questions the way you do.


Because I am seeking Philosopher's response to this post and eagerly anticipate his well-educated and well-formed thoughts, I will clarify and simplify my questions:

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Originally Posted by Philosopher5689

Purpose of Lucid Dreaming

The human mind has a well defined job to perform. Lucid Dreaming has a role to play in that job. To believe that Lucid Dreaming is for any other purpose is counter productive to achieving the capability of performing its work.

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What is your understanding of the human mind's job, and what is your understanding of the role that lucid dreaming plays within the human mind's job?

Sorry for the delay, but I provoked my absence--I like to test the waters. But in answer to your question, When I first started lucid dreaming by a question I put to myself, for years, in fact till in my mid 30's I believed that I was working with my own mind--I deliberately avoided examining strong evidence to the contrary. To even ponder the idea otherwise, even now is beyond me--however--I cannot deny what I know. Part of understanding is I said it was uninteresting, not unnecessary. Children will play, but I know that play is not exactly without limits, it is limited and monitored. The mind, if you have read any of my other posts, has a well defined job--to sustain and promote the life of the body, like every other environmental acquisition system.

Now I have to give you a glimpse of the Two-Element Metaphysics being developed in early Greece by some very bright people, Plato one of them. Set Theory is part of it, your biology is part of it--and ultimately your own psychology. A thing is defined as any material difference in any form. The relative enclosed by the absolute. Many ways of saying it, and it applies to every thing--even your psychology. Emotion drives us, reasoning contains emotion for a net result of producing human will. One cannot eliminate either of them. Lucid dreaming targets your emotional development, however, you must pursue it vigorously.

I once did not understand the need for prophets--and I mean real ones that history has not seen for a very long time, as knowledge and use of lucid dreaming. As was written they shall appear again in history together. The real training of the mind takes place, quite unaware by the dreaming, to mainly their emotional development. However, you can learn the fundamentals of language there also, you can learn to communicate. Language is a method of "saying what you see." There are well defined principles involved, Plato goes over them in his dialogs--however you are generally not told directly, but must understand--abstract--your mind must be functioning to do that.

Your mind does not have to function to learn to remember and repeat. Lucid dreaming is used to exercise your ability to abstract--the same method Plato used. The two-element metaphysics rules here also, enumeration is to rote, as definition is to application of abstraction. Mankind is evolving--those who can--from the one to the other. Knowledge has little to do with quoting who said what, or upholding one's culture--but judgment based upon standards--that are very real to those who develop the eyes to see them. Even Kohlbergs seven levels of moral development are in reality only two.

A prophet can give you the words for linguistic integrity, but without what you learn in the lucid dreamstate, you cannot give meaning to those words--you simply do not have the requisite material in which to make anything of them..

One might say that there are many ways of defeating reason, when the truth of the matter is we have not learned to integrate, as material difference and form, emotion and language--emotion and reason. We are learning to craft human will.

In my opinion the purpose of LDing is to dream the way it was meant to be done. Of course having fun and living out dreams created in the waking imagination is really fun too and highly motivates me. ^_^

"You can have so much damn fun in your dreams. And, of course, everyone knows FUN RULES.”

- Waking Life

I believe I've had my questions answered. Thank you, I now take my leave of this thread. *tips hat and walks off to Invader's party thread*

I simply lucid dream as a way to explore my dreams and try to understand how my mind/body works, and get a better understanding of the nature of life and all that exists
lucid dreaming has existed for ages,and has likely been first used and discovered by ancient shamans and witch-doctors,it could even be that's how religion was born(there are other possibilities)