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The human mind has a well defined job to perform. Lucid Dreaming has a role to play in that job. To believe that Lucid Dreaming is for any other purpose is counter productive to achieving the capability of performing its work.
Those who display interest in the state for any other reason than to attain to the full functionality of the human mind, are frankly, uninteresting.
I got into LDing because I wanted to see what my DCs and dreams were really like to hopefully better understand my subconscious. But I would be lying if I didn't admit that flying and dream sex were motivators for me too.
The majority are easily amused.
However, I would think that the desire to "better understand my subconscious" implies 1) a self-referential fallacy 2) knowledge of the unknowable--for to be conscious of the subconsious is quite a nice little contradiction in terms. I would imagine that there is also a prior assumption, that you know what "understanding" is. If you did, I don't think you would be making elementary mistakes in reasoning.
Hey,
I agree with Philosopher...
Less than a year ago,I didn't think it was possible to control dreams.
(Just as many people had)I once had a Lucid Dream when I was young...
I then found out about Lucid Dreaming in a book..."How to get high:Without the use of drugs." haha:cheeky:
Lucid Dreaming is awesome,its a part of my life that is yet to be fully explored..
Sam
A well defined job to perform. Since I'd like to understand your stance better (assuming there is more to your sharing of this information than the desire to convince people to re-evaluate their reasons for lucid dreaming), may I ask what you believe that job is, and how lucid dreaming fits into that job?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
Yeah, what Clyde Machine said.... I don't get what that job is, really <.<
I suppose I stated that incorrectly, you are correct in that you can't "understand" your subconscious, but I was hoping to better understand why I dream certain things or fell certain ways about thing in real life that I can't fully explain. I was hoping the alternate state of a lucid dream might better help me interpret some of my conscious thoughts and actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
I have to agree with the Clyde and Walms. What is the purpose of LDing in terms of your mind? My purpose to LD is to experience sensations and things that are deemed impossible IRL(flying, etc....). However, I also plan to find out more about myself, possibly my desires, weaknesses, etc.... and try to test the capabilites of my mind with rendering different scenes, vividness, etc.... :) I do have to agree with you that there are some things that I won't do in an LD basically because I can do them IRL and it's what I would rather do :)
One can divide a living organism by its environmental acquisition systems--those systems of the organism which must acquire something from the environment, process that which it has acquired and produce that which maintains and promotes the life of the organism. --
1) the respiratory-system, 2) the digestive-system 3) the ocular-system 4) the vestibular-system, 5) the manipulative-system. 6) the procreative-system 7) for want of better words, the human mind--judgmental systrem.
Each and every environmental acquisition system of the human body is, to quote "so that we may have life and have it more abundantly".
Some philosophers understood very well, and promoted the tool used by the human mind, language, logic, grammar.
Take a well known puzzle, the Delian problem--It would not have been given if it did not have a solution. Granted it took me ten years to solve it, but I eventually understood. Or, again, the sealing of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, not sealed by any magic, but simply by exercising grammatical principles.
At the present time in history, man's linguistic ability is very primitive. As has been observed by many, the progress of man is linked to his linguistic understanding.
But common to all of man's environmental acquisition systems, their failure lead in some respect to the death of the individual. During the evolution of a system, death is a given, for until it evolves to a certain level of functionality, it cannot possibly do its job.
Is a person aware who does not even know what their own function is in relation to their own body? How is it, that with all our educational institutions one cannot even answer the question, what am I?
If Lucid dreaming could accomplish no more than mental masturbation, it had no value, if, on the other hand during its use one's psychology was developed it had great value. How one uses it, just like any tool, determines what one can do with it.
To put it frankly, I can easily - just as everyone else from this thread can - answer that question just fine. I asked you about what you believed our mind's function/job is so I could better understand what you were getting at, not because I/we are uneducated on the matter. (Although Walms does stand to gain some knowledge from your post there, respectfully. :))Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
So the purpose of lucid dreaming is what you make it out to be, since it can provide us with far more than simple "mental masturbation". I agree with that. However, your original statement of oneironauts (current or prospective) being "uninteresting" if they seek anything less than "full functionality of the human mind" with lucid dreaming means that it should only be used to its fullest extent. I use it myself to a very full extent when I can, but not everyone has the same aims with it. Suppose someone just wants to use it every now and then to have a little nonsensical fun? Nothing wrong with that, is there?Quote:
If Lucid dreaming could accomplish no more than mental masturbation, it had no value, if, on the other hand during its use one's psychology was developed it had great value. How one uses it, just like any tool, determines what one can do with it.
Subconscious- existing in the mind but not immediately available to consciousness
Emphasis on "immediately available." There are fields of science devoted to better understanding the subconscious, and dream interpretation is a method used for such a purpose. Therefore, I did not commit any logical fallacies nor use the term "understand" incorrectly, even though I conceded the point to you previously.
Regardless, it's only your opinion that lucid dreaming need serve some greater purpose. It's perfectly acceptable to lucid dream for whatever reason you wish. I find it presumptuous on your part to try to dictate what the purpose of lucid dreaming is, considering its highly personal nature. It's the equivalent of me trying to tell you what the correct religion to believe in is. It's fine to have your opinion on lucid dreaming, but I find it offensive when you criticize those who disagree with you and I don't feel that that sort of attitude is conducive to a debate.
Lucid dreaming is there to find answers on question's that go beyond waking life
Ok first off... You should write a book in a way i think your brilliant... in another way... completely ignorant. I'm a teen calling you ignorant.. its a bit cocky my bad. But have you ever thought that having lucid dreams is a way to educate you. Like nightmares are a way to punish you. Well if you look at it the way i look at it our mind has lucid dreams to make us feel more confident and learn more about ourselves. Here for example dream sex. Most of you shallow people out there who want to LD for dream sex is because you dont have to confidence to go after it in the real world. Dream sex would be a ... more of a cure for depression because you aren't getting to fullfill your need in real life. Having dream sex could give you the confidence to at least try to move on and get a mate. It could also teach you thinks about yourself. I at heart am an adventurous person. I like dreaming of doing all sorts of traveling. I have had only one lucid dream... I breathed fire to melt snow.. Maybe my mind wanted to know what it was like to breath fire and maybe I always wanted to breathe fire and its the satisfying of my fantasies. Making me feel better about myself and making me have confidence. I may seem completely ignorant here but hey im a kid and I have my ideas. Sorry for the grammatical errors and spelling errors. this is how i feel about this thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
An excellently-worded summary of a few of my leftover thoughts from my earlier post. While it's alright to speculate and discuss, to blatantly state and dictate is to engage in one-sided speech, which, no matter how intelligently worded, has the potential to be incorrect. In this case, I'm afraid Philosopher is incorrect in that respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by horsey101
Well, I think my problem is that I am from a much older school, one in which relation to self is altogether inadmissable. Thus, I tend to believe that that the digestive system has a function, and that the function of the stomach resides in the same class. The same with the ocular system, the eye, being a part of it can not have any other function outside the class of the whole. However, if any of you thinkers can convince me that A does not equal A, I do have rather large ears.
Wait, from what I read in your posts, the job of the mind is to help have a better life, so then, how does getting some sort of satisfaction/enterteinament = having a worse life? Especially if that may help with stress and live happier?
If that is what you got out of my post, perhaps you should think about it a bit more. I have posted several audio books and ebooks for free on the internet archive of the works of Plato, I found that in making them, the years spent in study, helped me out a great deal, andd hopefully they will continue to do so. Currently I am trying to develop the forgotten Two-Element metaphysics his work is based on.
EDIT: Good luck on those works, Philosopher, I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about such a subject. :)
In response to Philosopher's earlier post:
Hah, a rather humorous ending to that post! However, we aren't trying to convince you that A doesn't equal A, we're merely explaining that you telling us that it's "uninteresting" to do anything with lucid dreaming other than what the mind is meant for (which appears to be usage to its fullest extent) is expressing the idea that lucid dreaming shouldn't be allowed for those who want to (or only have time/available effort to) have simple pleasures like dream sex or impossible activities. I disagree with that.
Just because lucid dreaming CAN accommodate a person to fully experience what their mind can do doesn't mean that's what it should ONLY be used for. Just because your mind CAN process hundreds or thousands of words per minute doesn't mean it should ONLY be used for processing that much thought - you'd be fatigued and need a nap by noon!
One other thing: you're discussing the function of organs in relation to their corresponding systems. Lucid dreaming is a function/phenomenon, not an organ, therefore can have many uses, where such things as a person's stomach has one inherent use, the eyes having one inherent use, etc. (Obviously not all organs only have one specific use, but you see where the incomparable elements lie.)
I follow my own specific purpose for lucid dreaming Thank you very much.
My own rules about lucid dreaming - My dreams are as real as the waking world.
- You are the final authority on the purpose, meaning, and interpretation of your own dream.
Don't bother arguing with me... I won't be posting on this thread again.
Well, I got it from this part in your post:
Each and every environmental acquisition system of the human body is, to quote "so that we may have life and have it more abundantly".
I will ask again then, what is the job of the human mind?
I'm in agreement with Walms, I don't feel I've had that question completely satisfied from your posts following our prompting of that question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walms
I do not recall saying what one can or cannot do it it. Perhaps your reading too much into what I did say. A long time ago, I too once believed that I was working with my own mind--but then I learned how to ask questions and get answers. Most of all I was always steared onto a particular path.
For example: Once in a while I would have a problem with telephone wires in dreams--they blocked my way. I kept trying to climb over them, but no matter how many I climbed over, there were more. Then, I asked myself, what are telephone lines? Well, in the simple they are lines of communication. The next time I encountered them in the lucid dreamstate I decided to act a bit more rationally, follow the lines--see where they led, In effect, I decided to follow the lines of communication. In so doing, I came to understand the message.
I do know this, for I have done it. You can ask questions and get answers--answers one could not possibly guess at. Once I asked about an author I had never met. I got very upset with the whole thing as the answer was in visual metaphor--easy to understand, but well, being human and not understanding I wanted a reply in simple English.
Eventually I learned it was all about the functioning of the human mind--it is still evolving--still primitive. But, commensurate with its development is the use of language which has a biological basis--people cannot overcome their genetics. Telepathy is a more advanced form of communication, however, one cannot hope to progress along those lines without mastering the concepts of language itself. Our written and spoken languages are part of what we have to master before we learn the fundamentals of telepathy. We cannot hope to process telepathic data if we cannot process our own. Thus, mysticism and fantasy are stages of man, but not where we are going.
I got into LDing so I could explore into the other worlds and learn about things that cannot be known by just staying on this one plane of existence. The physical plane of this dimension is very limiting! The things I discover aren't always pleasant, but all of what I have discovered and am still discovering makes my life more complete.
Using LD's for deeper purposes is great, it is an invaluable resource just for that, but sometimes it's nice to just have fun. Do things you never Could in waking life, anything you think would be a fun experience. Just enjoying the ride can be just as rewarding.
There's a difference between organs of the body, and the percieved purpose of lucid dreaming.
It's highly subjective. People may lucid dream as they wish. In essence, you're proving this - you have an opinion on the purpose of lucid dreaming. So do I. It doesn't mean you're right, though, because there's no single purpose. Only opinions as to the purpose.
As for me, I use lucid dreaming as a recreational activity, nothing more. I've not had many, but from the few I've had, I simply enjoy exploring my subconscious, feeling, touching, smelling, seeing, hearing. I hope to fly one day. Why? For fun.
You may see it differently, and that's fine. Don't assume you're "correct", though, because there's no such thing when what we're talking about is subjective.
Lucid dreaming is simply becoming aware you are dreaming. It's as simple as that. The purpose is what you make of it.