How is lucid dreaming involved in the search for Truth? Answering questions about God and that sort of thing?
Printable View
How is lucid dreaming involved in the search for Truth? Answering questions about God and that sort of thing?
Here we go again... :roll:
This is a secular forum. Kindly continue this discussion in the beyond dreaming section.
It's a pretty vague question besides, Requiem.
I'd suggest that trying to find something profound and... "Truth-ish" in a Lucid Dream will result in one "discovering" that what one already believes is "Truth." If you get what I'm saying.
Well... the truth I would seek would involve revealing who am I, since I know that I'm in a world my mind created. God on the other hand... well that's up to you. You could talk to God in your dream I guess, but I would only believe that you are talking to yourself. Revealing the truth about God is another story.
That makes me think... even if there is no access to the supernatural in dreams, you might be better equipped to receive some insight into something or other. For example, a lot of art is said to be inspired by dreams.Quote:
I would only believe that you are talking to yourself. Revealing the truth about God is another story.
Mods said this location is fine.
But how can I use lucid dreaming to gain some sort of generic spiritual insight? Find out who I am and my place in the world?
Also, a friend asked me this question and I didn't know what to tell him. I know I read about people meditating or being aware during deep sleep.
I think, first of all, you have to find out what you're looking for. IMO, there is no "generic" spiritual insight. You can meditate, and try to be more self-aware, and you can improve your dream control and lucidity, but I really don't know what it is you're going for.Quote:
generic spiritual insight?
Once i 'saw' GOD and DEATH in a dream. Was weird, first i died then i flew and finally arrived at mountain top. There they were. I knew they were there i knew that with my guts but i could not really see them. It just doesnt work like that. I couldnt see even when i was flying towards them. They were too enormous. Unimaginable. So i was just the speck down somewhere in their feet. They had a funny chat though cos i heard them laughig not thet i understood something. But they let me go down the mountain by foot and be alive again.
Weird dream it was. Still thinking what it could mean for me.
42
What Truth are you seeking anyway? The only truth I know is that we're small, insignificant beings on a tiny blue dot in the vast and unimaginably huge cosmos.
Not to be a jerk, but quite frankly, our understanding of lucid dreaming is simply being aware in our dreams. So, no relation to searching for truth unless there's an aspect to it we have yet to discover. :?
Well, Tibetan Buddhists have used lucid dreaming in search of enlightenment or attain it or whatever for awhile now. Does that count as Truth?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clyde Machine
I haven't yet found an all encompassing guide though so if anyone has a good link to lucid dreaming and eastern philosophy that would be great. Do they just sit and mediate or what?
Very well, there appears to be a field of lucid dreaming I know little of that sounds like Truth to me. Thanks for the tip. In my experience lucid dreaming doesn't bring me toward the Truth, but I don't mean to say it can't.
Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Dr. Stephen LaBerge mentions his discoveries with Tibetan meditation and how they use lucid dreaming. You'll want to check out that and his other book, Lucid Dreaming, which has information related to his experiments with them. It also contains mention of his relations with Tibet and their practices.
If it turns out we're all the same...spiritually, then any insight would be pretty generic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samael
before i attempt to answer this question, i must state that i do not consider myself religious at all. but i am spiritual in the sense that i view my thoughts and actions through a larger lens and in relation to greater forces at work.. some of which i do not yet understand.
the "truth" is very important to me.. but things can only be true in a subjective sense, truth can only be what it is to me. as i walk through life i am aware that there is calling to greater levels of transcendence in my life. this calling drives me, and yet it is something that i do not completely understand yet. lucid dreaming, for me, provides tools to help understand those forces. it is one of many. i think it's insight to the self is incredibly valuable to those means.
Agree with what kooky said, you'll see what you expect to, even if you don't expect it consciously.
This is ridiculous (completely ignoring a religious debate where) dreams are just dreams. Kookyinc makes a good point, you're only going to find what you're already looking for.
Why must everyone connect the slightest unknown with a religious meaning? Mabye dreams are just... you know... DREAMS!
That is a very intelligent and relevant question, Requiem. EWOLD, widely considered to be the "Bible" of lucid dreaming, has an entire chapter devoted to just such a topic. In fact, Stephen LaBerge (a scientist) repeatedly implies throughout that book that spirituality and one's individual experience of the divine or a spiritual awakening within the lucid dream is the most important aspect of lucid dreaming, however you may interpret such an experience. It is true that Tibetan Buddhists have for thousands of years used the lucid dream as a vehicle for exploring reality and uncovering a deeper universal truth about who we really are.
Stephen LaBerge speaks of a lucid dream in which he is driving down the road and sees an attractive young lady hitchhiking at the side of the road. Instead of picking her up, as he normally would, he decided to do something different, resolving to seek "The Highest." He opened himself to guidance, and his car began soaring through the air, then he flew out of it and began rocketing up toward the sky. Mystical symbols flew by as he went, and he eventually rose past the clouds and into a space the seemed like a "limitless mystical realm: a vast emptiness that was overflowing with love, an unbounded space that felt somehow like home." He goes on and begins to sing and feels as if he is embracing the entire cosmos in the resonance of his voice. He goes on to say that this dream gave him a vastly expanded sense of identity, as if he had discovered another form of being in which his ordinary self stood in relation as a drop of water to the ocean.
He also warns to use caution in your explorations, as dreams can just as easily offer delusions as truth, and upon awakening, if the experience of an "Ultimate Reality" has faded and your waking consciousness feels back to normal again, there is no way to verify if it was truly real or just a dream.
i believe that as humans we are on a mission or journey to figure out who we are and where we came from and how to get back. when i say "how to get back" i mean to say that how can we return to the "god consciousness" we have always known and was always there. To me, god consciousness is knowing all that is and being all that is. we have that power but we have just forgotten in this human experience. I believe that it is through our dreams, meditation, and any other altered state of consciousness that we can "re-remember" this all knowing power we possess. i feel that when one has the ability to lucid dream and dream control, in a sense we are kind of "practicing" how to remember these powers or higher levels of consciousness because it is all by direct will. which we can also do in waking reality but of course it takes longer for those thoughts to manifest. in the dream world thoughts, ideas, and feelings are much faster to come. but to me lucid dreaming is kind of a practice ground for the higher levels of consciousness we already possess but are working towards in this journey of the human experience. After this physical plane.. when we have learned all that we can.. we will move on.. perhaps closer to this "god consciousness" and i believe lucid dreaming plays a part in harnessing these kinds of higher states.
Truth is the state of being true. Two are more things are said to be true to each other, when by some means of comparison, no difference is found in the measures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem
Truth is not something one looks for, but what one constructs.
Lucid dreaming, properly pursued, exercises one's ability as a craftsman.
The human mind functions through language in order to manipulate the environment such that we maintain and promote our life. Therefore, on some level, one must first know, and demonstrate how language as a symbolic process does not differ from that which it represents.
Didn't Confucius say it all? If names be not in accordance with . . . .
Is not the same claim in Scripture and in Plato, so many have said it, but so few understand.
Exactly. It's as if human beings have become entranced by egoic consciousness, completely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are who we think we are, nothing more, and nothing less. Certain altered states of consciousness such as Lucid Dreaming can give us a glimpse back into our natural, undefined state of open, unbounded, awareness that we always have been. I also believe that humans are currently at a major turning point in our evolution, where we will soon either destroy ourselves completely and leave mother nature to start over new, or we will experience a major shift in Consciousness that utterly redefines how we perceive ourselves and how we perceive the rest of the Universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by missxsmilezz
I would suggest you meet up with your DG and have him/her answer a few questions for you, as they are said to guide you :)
http://images.whatport80.com/images/...lage-small.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by SystemsLock
Your posts are always the best, dude. I get a real kick outta them but they go right over my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosopher8659
And MrFantasy, Steve's dream sounds trippy! Cool!
No, don't. Get "The tibetan yogas of dream and sleep" if you're interested in that subject, Requim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clyde Machine
Let's get back on topic. First of all you need to set a definition for what truth is for you. According to tibetan followers of the Bön tradition, one needs to be in a state of lucidity when in the bardo.
For me truth is action/thought without grasping or aversion. This can be achieved through dream yoga. When maintaining in a state of lucidity (both at day and night), one learns to develop the ability to control your reactions and emotions towards the physical world, thus, also eventually seeing the true nature of everything.
Once you are in that state, there will be no right or wrong, no ugly, no beauty, no perceptual thoughts. The only thing that will remain is the true nature, aka the truth (following my definition of the word).
SPOT ON! i totally believe in all of this..Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFantasy
All this speculation and nothing concrete. . .
Luckily, I've actually done some exploration of self and searched for answers to those "big" questions in lucids before. Of course, any answer I got always led to more questions. =/
Anywho, my method was thus:
Step 1: Find my DG.
Step 2:?????Converse with her.
Step 3:Profit.Pick out the truths.
No matter what you believe a DG to be, this technique has some credence to it. I'll argue my point if needed, but the reasons for its validity should be somewhat obvious, if you stop and think about it. At the very least, it's a starting place for anyone at all interested in applications.
"All this speculation and nothing concrete. . ."
Welcome to this thing called life
Elaborate, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzzkc
On the method or why it has value?
Yeah, on both and everything.
Thanks a lot, dawg.
Well the details of the idea are pretty straightforward. All you have to do is find an entity/being/character in your dreams who you genuinely believe to be your Dream Guide and chat them up, asking the most pertinent questions you can conceive. Unfortunately, remembering what you want to ask is a task in and of itself. It's pretty easy for the conversation to get sidetracked if you aren't putting in the required focus.
And I can't help you with actually locating the DG, as I don't really remember how I found mine the first time. My best advice is to not look for them, but simply find them. From my own experiences, I can say if you put too much attention on the search, you'll be hard pressed to achieve the desired outcome.
Now the mechanics of why this should work at some level seems a bit sticky, but it really isn't. DGs have always been a hot-topic for debate and speculation, with one side believing them to be an embodiment of your subconscious mind and the other convinced there's something more to them. Awhile back, when I first started using LDing to search for answers, I had placed my flag in the former's camp. Much has changed since then, including where that proverbial flag is planted now.
But regardless of what you personally believe, either of these options achieve, on some level, what you want. On one hand, you're able to dig deep within yourself for insights you never knew existed. On the other, guidance comes from a being that allegedly knows more about the universe than you could ever hope to. It's a win-win no matter how you look at it. (Also, I invite the inevitable Pascal's Wager argument, but I'm fairly certain the two possibilities I listed encompass everything in the set. However, I will concede the point that the DG might be fucking with you. =P)
I'd go into my own personal experience in more depth, but to quote my old DG, "Life is a dream. Some people realize that before they die. Most don't."
She is, of course, remarking on the subjective nature of reality, which is relevant here because it emphasizes the personal journey and the fact that true wisdom will always get lost in the translation.
Let me know if you want some more elaboration. This was rushed because I have to go shopping for foodstuffs. x.X
Honestly, it is what you want it to be. If you want to use lucid dreaming for religion then that's awesome. I just do it for fun, but the applications of it are pretty limitless. You could maybe try praying in your dream or something, and seeing what happens. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem
I heard a voice once in my dream. Pretty sure that was my DG. Told me I was the Molder, hence my username. He could've been playing with me, as Mzzkc suggested, but it all made some eerie sense once I went deep enough into it.
Very interesting topic, BTW.
I can see you didn't understand it well, we all together are one, the sum of our individualities makes us one, we've already chosen diferent paths, and that makes us diferent, the quality of our energy, light or dark sided etc etc. Just because they say it's an illusion it doesn't mean it isn't real for us, and that's enough for us to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem
I think lucid dreaming is an excellent way to learn things about oneself 'without all the bullshit in the way'. People here are saying 'you won't learn anything more than what you already know', but sometimes the things we 'already know', we don't really 'know' on the surface, or use to our advantage in waking life. You can 'know' something 'in theory', but that doesn't cause it to positively effect your behavior. We can 'know' that life isn't 'hopeless', we can 'know' on the surface that we're smart, or 'there's no point in crying about it', 'something doesn't feel right', but it's difficult to really act on it, assimilate it, pinpoint the 'why' and 'how', or believe in our instincts. Furthermore, I think that the sensory input and obligations, expectations, of waking life- there are so many layers, sometimes it's difficult to be at one with how we really feel and think, and our own needs. We can know we need something subconsciously without really understanding what it is, waking. A dream can underline the importance of certain things, or make concise statements about things that difficult to grasp while the film of Real Life is running. A dream can often tell you what you Really Feel or Really Think about something in WL, which isn't always as 'obvious' as it 'should be'.
There's also the concept that we're capable of processing 'at a higher level' in our sleep, so our problem solving and brainstorming functions are greased up. You can 'sleep on it' and wake up with an 'a-HA!' Some answers you 'know' or are capable of discerning, but can't seem to grasp so long as you're actively searching for them!
To quote a DC, 'Mmkay, listen up, you're about to receive a bunch of answers to questions you've been asking yourself in waking life. What you're accessing right now is a little piece of what I like to call the collective subconscious. None of us are really that petty- and none of us actually think that we are, either, underneath it all, but there's a lot underneath it all, hm? This experience is a checkpoint for you down the long road of growing. You're getting a step closer to being able to work intuitively with people out there on the surface. First thing's first; the seed being planted here, is the suspicion that you are, while you're awake. Doubt your doubts. Keep getting closer. Some of the things you're going to hear, are things you know... Obviously. But you don't actively know. We know them too, but, likewise, not actively. On the surface we're working with scraps. Inklings. It's all fog machines and fXXXery...' We go on living as if we haven't been giving any solutions, don't believe in them, don't acknowledge them. She's was referencing the fact that we 'know the answers' but can't believe that we do, and go on acting oblivious and being unfulfilled(she was referencing the other DC's within the dream, who were all 'stripped' versions of people I've met in WL.)
Food for thought: You can 'know' joy, but does that mean you've 'found happiness'? You can 'know' there isn't any point in second guessing yourself. Does that keep you from doing it? You can 'know' you did the right thing, but have guilt and 'not understand what's going on'.