A THEORY: We're missing it! (you should read this)

I've been rather frustrated lately by my almost constant inability to lucid dream. Since pretty much the beginning of my attempts to intentionally lucid dream I actually noticed a decline in my ability to easily slip in and out of dreams, and now I am almost altogether unable to lucid dream on-demand. Couldn't I just go with DILD or MILD or one of those other induction techniques? Well, sure, and I have. And I've even discovered some of my own techniques along the way. And they really do work. But I've just realized something lately that makes me wonder if all these techniques are kind of missing the point.

The reason for this is not complicated...in fact, I discovered it by just going back to the basics to see what I was working with, instead of just trying to do ANOTHER technique. So I started with the question: what is a lucid dream, in the physical sense? I know what a lucid dream is in the definitive sense, but what does a lucid dream consist of in our real, physical world? And, more importantly, how can I activate this part of my existence every single night, without having to ruin my life during the day just so I can have a few minutes of excitement at night?

The answer: logic.

That's where lucid dreams consist: the logic portion of our brains; that part that shuts down during the night unless otherwise forcibly re-activated via external means (i.e. reality checks, for example).

But wait, there's more. It gets even simpler. If the logic portion of my brain is where lucid dreams are drawn from, and all I have to do in order to become lucid in a dream is to switch this part of my brain on one way or another...then do I really have to focus on dreams at all in order to go lucid? If I think logically in any way, shape, or form, I will know when I am dreaming and when I am not, as a natural side-effect.

Now, the question is, then, how can we cause ourselves to simply become more logical in our thinking to the point that we are habitually making logical observations about our environments without even making conscious effort to do so?

Discuss.

An example of our tendency to fail at logic, and perhaps an exercise to overcome it: Exercise Your Brains – Visual Logic Brain Teaser | SharpBrains

Another example, this time in video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
By the end, you'll know what I mean that this applies to dreams.

I'm not too sure about that theory. I have spent years thinking logically in every way, shape and form. For a living. But I am still searching for and creating tools for lucidity.

I always struggle to fall asleep when I work late at night. This is because my logic circuits are still running. And then my dreams tend to be just about logic or code or abstract things. Nothing tangible that you could act on.

Logic may be an important prerequisite, however, but there are still other missing variables.

Well, that depends really on how we define logic. Referring to coding, this is very complicated, it's a left-brain thing of course, but it involves very deep, complex thinking. When we're talking about dreams, or particularly lucid dreams, what we mean by logic is down to something very simple. It's the clearest, most certain path of thought from point A to point B. That's what we're after here.

I think you are on to something big here.

This may seem crazy, but your description of the type of logic reminded me of something. Laughing appears to be the brain's response to a break in logic. Every good joke builds a clear and logical path but at the end something completely unpredictable / unexpected happens. So maybe reading jokes without laughing?

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Originally Posted by Supernova

Well, that depends really on how we define logic. Referring to coding, this is very complicated, it's a left-brain thing of course, but it involves very deep, complex thinking. When we're talking about dreams, or particularly lucid dreams, what we mean by logic is down to something very simple. It's the clearest, most certain path of thought from point A to point B. That's what we're after here.

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An important point, and a good explanation, Supernova.

But what can we do to use that to our advantage in lucid dreaming? All the obvious applications seem to lead right back into the DILD/MILD/etc. thing...is there really no alternative? :(

If I understood things correctly, chemicals are released or something like that which completely prevents us from thinking logically inside our dreams. Does anyone know more about this?

It would be perfect if we found some kind of drug or food or vitamin that prevented that chemical from being released or synthesized.

This is why WBTB is such an effective method. You stay up long enough to get your brain working logically again, but you stay up just short enough so you still feel tired.

Yeah! I've always wondered something along those lines!

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Originally Posted by mikeac

This is why WBTB is such an effective method. You stay up long enough to get your brain working logically again, but you stay up just short enough so you still feel tired.

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I wonder if doing some sort of brain teaser would increase it's effectiveness.

Or maybe...when writing down your dreams, point out all the logical fallacies. I really wonder what effect that would have.
I'm going to start doing that actually.

Nice topic. Inspired me to the idea of a very simple and effective RC.

I personally think it is awareness that we are missing, rather than logic, in our non-lucid dreams.
This lack of awareness is also the reason we are often unconscious during waking life; resulting in us putting an object down somewhere whilst being in a state of low awareness,
and then we cannot remember where we put it. For instance.
If we'd have enough awareness in a dream to begin with, we'd automatically be more focussed and likely to spot dreamsigns.
Daytime Logic is more the standard against which we measure experiences to determine if they are deamtime or daytime experiences. It is the mechanism/tool that awareness uses to recognise Dreamsigns and discriminate the Dreamstate from the Waking state.

The RC I just thought of is as follows:
Write a random sum on paper like: 3 X 5= ? and try to solve it.
No matter how easy it may be, if our Logic in dreams indeed is as screwed as it seems, this would be impossible to solve.
I guess you could do this 2 times a day or even more frequently you may end up doing it in your dreams too.
Every time you change the sum. It could be 7 - 4= ?, or 80:3=? or any sum really.
As long as it's random.

Just thought of another one.
In dreams we are often in one place and then, without going there, we're suddenly in a completely different place.
Asking yourself "How did I get Here?" often during the day may help it become a habbit in your dreams too. If it does then
in a dream we would most certainly have no idea of how we got where we are.

I like this theory. I will see if I can come up with any ideas.

Very smart to think of this!
Maybe we should do a series of tests on which works better, with reality checks vs. dream signs vs. theories, and why.
We should also come up with new ways to see how we can figure out if we are lucid. Out of all of the lucid dreams we have had, why did we know? How did we come about the fact we were dreaming? What made our mind dare to ask us if we were dreaming?
Something had to trigger it, maybe it's all in tricking our subconcious. I understand where you are coming from, since the logical part of our brain is turned off, and we use logic to find out if we are dreaming. Maybe the real question is, what triggers our mind into turning the logical part on? And if it doesn't do that, than how do we know we are actually dreaming? What is it that makes us know? It has to be something in the mind that sets it off.

Ive got an app on my iPod - called Brain Trainer or something.. I might combine these logic exercises in my 20-30mins of being awake for my WBTB method - give it a few nights and see what happens in terms of becoming lucid and if amount of time increases!

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Originally Posted by Lynn

What made our mind dare to ask us if we were dreaming?
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you know, that is a really good question. i recently started to look into this and realised that all of my lucid dreams started with a thought. i don't know if this is the same for anyone else but i can't quite remember thinking anything in a no lucid dream. when i become lucid it's like waking up. its funny because whenever i become lucid its always a chain of thoughts that lead me to lucidity. thats why when i become lucid i never "need" a reality check to make sure. i just know. i feel like i'm rambling here, but i think that any sort of concious thought during a dream, would instantly make me lucid.

Ah, I don't want to ruin it for you, but logic can be a problem too. For example, I'm very logical in dreams and am always thinking about the actions and the enviroment, but because of that too, my dreams are logical, so nothing out of the ordinary happens and most RCs won't work, not to mention there is always a fake memory to ruin the memory RC.

This is interesting. I have read in some WILD tutorials to focus on more logical thoughts when going to bed instead of "anxious" thoughts, like what happened during the day.

What I have been doing for WILDs is thinking up a calc problem in my head and trying to solve it without really thinking hard about it. If I think too hard I will picture it all out (ruining any imagery) and sometimes get frustrated. If I just kind of let the problem work itself out then for a while it won't really get anymore I will just kinda be like "math...." and then eventually it kind of solves itself without me trying to solve it. The way I think of this is that my subconcious takes over solving the math and helps lead to lucidity in dreams.

It might a completely made up explanation but.... it can work for some. Especially for people like me that very easily understand math. (I'm in calc 3 and am 15) So the part of my brain that does math will be more subconciously linked. As in when I learn math it instantly gets mapped out in my brain and I understand its logic perfectly and love doing proves for things.

So since this something that is deeply linked in to my subconcious and logic it works greatly for me to get me into a state of mind that connects the two.

Hi, I've been having the same problem. About 4 years ago, when I started lucid dreaming I used to have them almost every night, and it kept that way for almost a year. Then it started to dissapear, and now I can't even remember what I dreamed last night. I think now is because I am going through a very stressful moment, heartbroken, so that keeps my mind full all day, and I can't even sleep well. I just want to lucid dream again, but I guess right now is not possible. Anyway, I'll try some techniques, but it is very frustrating, because I can't remember better nights than those where I could do everything I wanted in my dreams.

I enjoy this post! Let me tell you something about logic. Most people think logic is simply thinking about things in a common sense sort of way. However, logic is sooo much more.

In order for your theory to work, one must question every moment of their existence. This is to say, asking questions about every operation experienced in waking life. Once you begin with a question, you can then employ logic and reason to deduce answers and such. This is the process, now here is the AWESOME PART.

There is a feeling you get when you begin to question and logic things. Isolate this feeling, and you have in your possession the exact feeling your brain gets when it says "wait a second here". That is the moment of realization you are hoping for is it not?

I'll tell you this then if you are still with me. Use this feeling in waking life often and meditate on it as if you are feeling that in the dream state. Once you remind yourself to feel that in a dream, presto! You have just inserted logic and reason into your dreams using a wonderful mnemonic device!

Personally I would advise against simply trying to question every little thing in life in order to do the same in your dream life. This leads to confusion, lack of focus, and dissociation from that which surrounds you. Ask the right questions, use the feeling.

Thanks for the post LITDream!

One very simple reality check I started doing is randomly pausing for a moment throughout the day to observe my surroundings in detail. A slow deep gaze around the room while silently questioning whether or not I'm dreaming. I'll do this 3 to 4 times every hour and a half roughly. Been doing this for about a week and haven't seen any results yet. However I have only had a few lucid dreams so far. I feel like I should be doing more reality checks though.

I like this theory. I shot a huge bird with my pellet rifle a while back and it got stuck in a tall tree in my backyard. So I was trying to get it down, but couldn't and I didn't want the neighbors to see it, so I decided to get up early and get it. The next morning I got up at 6am and went outside trying to figure out how to get it down, but realized it fell off during the night. My point is that's I had to figure out how I would get this bird down and thought logically and went back to bed and had a lucid.

I'm not entirely sure of this. I've definitely had non-lucid dreams where I was thinking logically. I've taught abstract algebra to DC's without becoming lucid, and I've done some pretty convoluted arithmetic in dreams (which, upon checking in waking life, turned out to be error-free) without being lucid.

To me, lucidity is not about logic, it's about awareness. Computers are pretty good logical machines, but are they self-aware?

Let me add, however, that I think "logical thinking" works as a lucidity aid for many people because to think logically requires a fair amount of awareness. My examples from personal experience may have a bit of a bias; I am trained as a mathematician and so logical thinking is a bit more second-nature for me than it once was. So it would make sense, in this case, that dreams requiring logical thinking would not prompt lucidity for me. In other people, however, who are less acquainted with logic, to exercise this type of mental function requires attention to detail and an awareness that they typically do not display in dreams. It's this awareness--so I hypothesize--that prompts lucidity, not the logical thinking in and of itself.

It's not about logic, but awareness. Just practicing more logical thinking won't do much for lucid dreaming. You need to practice awareness, mindfulness, in your day to day life. Or at least a combination of logic and awareness.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

It's not about logic, but awareness. Just practicing more logical thinking won't do much for lucid dreaming. You need to practice awareness, mindfulness, in your day to day life. Or at least a combination of logic and awareness.

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Well that's not fully true, because I believe that logical thinking and things that involve logical thinking can really help during a wbtb to become lucid. I mean it can help turn on your frontal lobe which will help a lot. That's what galantamine does as a lucid aid, which in return helps a lot with becoming lucid. But I definatly agree that awareness is the number one thing. I believe the best way Is to go throughout the day being as aware of yourself and everything around you as possible. I think that stopping a few times a day and really observing your surrounding and recognizing what and where you are in that period of time.

Turning on your frontal lobe while you are awake is one thing...but it is still going to turn back off as soon as you go to sleep. You need to figure out a way to turn it on while asleep. And you can't solve that by thinking logically while awake. That's why GM works so well, b/c it helps to turn on the frontal lobe while you're sleeping. The only other thing you can do, is remain aware. Or try my trick that involves drawing attention and awareness to the frontal lobe...or prefrontal cortex to enter a lucid dream during the transitional stage.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

Turning on your frontal lobe while you are awake is one thing...but it is still going to turn back off as soon as you go to sleep. You need to figure out a way to turn it on while asleep. And you can't solve that by thinking logically while awake. That's why GM works so well, b/c it helps to turn on the frontal lobe while you're sleeping. The only other thing you can do, is remain aware. Or try my trick that involves drawing attention and awareness to the frontal lobe...or prefrontal cortex to enter a lucid dream during the transitional stage.

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But don't you agree, that working your logic or frontal lobe during wbtb, will indeed help one become lucid. It has to turn it on to some agree while you fall asleep, otherwise wbtb wouldn't work. I don't know the science behind it, but the frontal lobe is somehow activated if one uses it during wbtb.

I neither agree nor disagree, because I have seen no evidence regarding this to support or falsify the theory. Have you tried researching it for yourself to see if there are any experiments dealing with this matter?

Why don't you start a thread in the research forum and get people to try it as an experiment and see how it goes? I would test it, but WBTBs are too much work for me. :P

Yea I'm not saying its true either. I'm just saying it could be a possiblity, but I'll look it up. I to don't like wbtb either, which is why I don't do it that often. And when I do, I usually stay up for like 5 seconds and then fall right back to sleep. If I find any information on the subject, I will start another thread.

I think something a lot of people tend to look over is the fact that we all differ from one another. We think differently, act differently, look differently, and behave differently. This sounds obvious - and I'll admit it is - but if people struggling with attaining lucidity (like me!) would take this into account, I believe the potential for them to achieve a lucid would increase. For instance, I frequently have dreams that take place in a room, with almost every aspect of that particular room identical to what it is like in waking life. Because of this, I started to mess around with my OWN idea of how to embrace these dreaming habits and turn them into lucids. Unfortunately, I did not get to experiment with it as in depth as I would have liked, but the point here is that perhaps instead of blindly following the techniques others do, we should all find our own, individual ways of doing them. The only thing stopping us from doing that is knowledge on the matter; if you know nothing on lucid dreaming or how it is induced, then odds are you will not be able to find a way to induce them on your own.

I've been gone for awhile so I feel a bit out of the loop. But I think some people would agree with me when I say we all need to find our own path, especially when it is something as personal as Lucid Dreaming. There is no universal rules for this, there isn't ONE technique that will work for EVERYONE; they're are only individual rules, dictated by ourselves. I'm tired, so I hope this post made even the slightest bit of sense. Good night.

Working on math is logical. But if you have your face shoved to a piece of paper and you're busy working on math problems, then you're not being aware of your environment. How do you know the math test isn't just a dream?

I agree with others, the answer is awareness, not logic. But logic does help you spot the inconsistencies in dreaming, like when a clock doesn't read right. You just can't rely on logic alone though. Reality checks have failed for tons of people, making it easy to logically conclude that you're actually awake.

What you want is awareness. I consider logic a by-product of awareness, but not the other way around.

LiveInTheDream,

This is the most intelligent thread I've read yet, I love it! I can't believe the video you posted hasn't received more comments. It was a real eye opener for me. It made me realize our awareness is similar to a camera. We can "zoom" our awareness in to sharply focus on something. We can also "zoom" out to have a more global awareness. When we "zoom in" our awareness, we often completely miss sensory info we otherwise would have easily noticed, just like the gorilla in the video. When I first watched the video, I did not notice the gorilla at all, JUST LIKE HOW I GULLIBLY ACCEPT GOOFINESS IN DREAMS. When I watched it a second time and saw the gorilla, I had the same Eureka sensation I have when I become lucid in a DILD.

So I find this very thought provoking in regards to reality checks and awareness in general. Thank you SKA for elaborating on awareness in this context - very well put.

The single best explanation I've come across came from Scot Stride. He works at NASA and wrote the forward to Thomas Yuschak's book "Advanced Lucid Dreaming - The Power of Supplements." Here is a quote from Scot:

“The crux of lucid dreaming is the awakening of the aminergic system which allows the person to think rationally enough to recognize the mental hallucinations as dreams. Vividness and memory alone are not enough to overcome the “idiotic” state of the mind during REM dreaming. Unless the aminergic system is above a certain threshold of rational functioning, the dreamer can’t become lucid."

Here is the source of that quote:

Lucid Dreaming: A Valid Explanation | Oneirology: | Lucid Dreaming | Psychedelics | Entheogens | The Study of Lucid Consciousness - A study into understanding our minds in the states of lucid dreaming and psychedelic experiences.

Apparently Mr. Stride worked closely with Mr. Yuschak based upon what he said in his "LDS" youtube series. So they have obviously augmented strategic use of supplements along with traditional induction techniques. Here is my take on this. I believe that a person who becomes lucid without supplements does so by naturally exceeding the aminergic threshold. This could occur two ways. It could simply happen naturally, as some are lucky enough to experience. It can also happen by using mental induction techniques that we all discuss here. But the bottom line is that our lack of awareness/logic is due to a neurochemical situation. For those that haven't read the book I mentioned, I highly recommend it. Thomas Yuschak has really done a thorough job with his research. I put his work right up there with Mr. LaBerge in educating us about lucid dreaming.

Back to your question though. Your video and the excellent discussion on this thread makes me optomistic for a new and improved reality check. Personally I've done diligent RC's LOTS of times every day for weeks on end without success. So the aminergic threshold concept really rings true to me. I love the idea of simply taking a different mental approach to doing an RC in such a fashion that you "look for the gorilla" instead of count how many times people wearing white throw the ball.

This thread has always interested me,. such a question ♥

I think you are wrong :) . What we're lacking in LD's is awareness. and using logic (and any other activity of the mind) only distract us from it.
We need to ask such people, who deals with much logic daily, maybe mathematicians (anyone here?), about their luck in lucid dreaming.

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Originally Posted by hisnameistyler

I think something a lot of people tend to look over is the fact that we all differ from one another. We think differently, act differently, look differently, and behave differently. This sounds obvious - and I'll admit it is - but if people struggling with attaining lucidity (like me!) would take this into account, I believe the potential for them to achieve a lucid would increase. For instance, I frequently have dreams that take place in a room, with almost every aspect of that particular room identical to what it is like in waking life. Because of this, I started to mess around with my OWN idea of how to embrace these dreaming habits and turn them into lucids. Unfortunately, I did not get to experiment with it as in depth as I would have liked, but the point here is that perhaps instead of blindly following the techniques others do, we should all find our own, individual ways of doing them. The only thing stopping us from doing that is knowledge on the matter; if you know nothing on lucid dreaming or how it is induced, then odds are you will not be able to find a way to induce them on your own.

I've been gone for awhile so I feel a bit out of the loop. But I think some people would agree with me when I say we all need to find our own path, especially when it is something as personal as Lucid Dreaming. There is no universal rules for this, there isn't ONE technique that will work for EVERYONE; they're are only individual rules, dictated by ourselves. I'm tired, so I hope this post made even the slightest bit of sense. Good night.

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Totally agree with you.
I stopped writing here a long time ago, but I read this and I said "yeah, let's support this comment"

I'm working on my way to have lucid dreams, and when I'm done with it I'm sure I will tell you about it.

bye!

Awareness is definitely the key issue in becoming lucid. Logic has little to do with it. I didn't realize that awareness was a requirement until I actually started practicing it, and I don't recall ever seeing it being mentioned in any of the official lucid dreaming tutorials that I've read. I think that awareness should be a key component in any lucid dreaming technique.

In fact, awareness does incorporate some form of logic, as in questioning your environment. But if you don't become aware of your environment in the first place you can't logically question it.


That video on the first page just gave me an idea to make an application/program to develop one's awareness. :)

Yes.Dopamine is released in dreams, psychotic episodes, and hallucinations.You can't stop the dopamine, and if you could, it would stop your dreams altogether because dopamine is what forces your brain to create false senses.

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Originally Posted by hisnameistyler

I think something a lot of people tend to look over is the fact that we all differ from one another. We think differently, act differently, look differently, and behave differently. This sounds obvious - and I'll admit it is - but if people struggling with attaining lucidity (like me!) would take this into account, I believe the potential for them to achieve a lucid would increase. For instance, I frequently have dreams that take place in a room, with almost every aspect of that particular room identical to what it is like in waking life. Because of this, I started to mess around with my OWN idea of how to embrace these dreaming habits and turn them into lucids. Unfortunately, I did not get to experiment with it as in depth as I would have liked, but the point here is that perhaps instead of blindly following the techniques others do, we should all find our own, individual ways of doing them. The only thing stopping us from doing that is knowledge on the matter; if you know nothing on lucid dreaming or how it is induced, then odds are you will not be able to find a way to induce them on your own.

I've been gone for awhile so I feel a bit out of the loop. But I think some people would agree with me when I say we all need to find our own path, especially when it is something as personal as Lucid Dreaming. There is no universal rules for this, there isn't ONE technique that will work for EVERYONE; they're are only individual rules, dictated by ourselves. I'm tired, so I hope this post made even the slightest bit of sense. Good night.

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I very much agree with your statement here. Allow me to add that there are universal lucid dreaming phenomena. For example WILD and its variant DEILD. They describe the same events. It is how you get to these events is what requires personal technique. Some people will misinterpret your statement and will rebel against common techniques and seek their own, which will take them a very long time. There are indeed techniques which do not work well with individual dreamers. For example I spent 3 months trying Castaneda's "look at your hands" lucid dream induction technique. No results. Then I found dreamviews and had a lucid dream within 10 days.


The short story is: stick with conventional techniques, when you get a feeling for lucid dreaming, find your own for intentional induction.

EVERY lucid dream i have ever had has come from this method, all just me thinking "Man, what the hell is going on?"

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Originally Posted by NrElAx

Well that's not fully true, because I believe that logical thinking and things that involve logical thinking can really help during a wbtb to become lucid. I mean it can help turn on your frontal lobe which will help a lot. That's what galantamine does as a lucid aid, which in return helps a lot with becoming lucid. But I definatly agree that awareness is the number one thing. I believe the best way Is to go throughout the day being as aware of yourself and everything around you as possible. I think that stopping a few times a day and really observing your surrounding and recognizing what and where you are in that period of time.

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I think your right.
So maybe try mixing ADA with Logic, and see what happens.
Also maybe try WBTB, and during the period, focus of logical thinking, and be aware of your surroundings?

I also feel like it's an awareness thing and that awareness allows us to apply logic to what we're seeing. Most of the time in a non-lucid it's almost like I'm watching a movie and I'm in it at the same time... And in movies we take whatever is spoon-fed to us as reality and let ourselves be absorbed into that created reality regardless of how silly the whole thing seems when you look back at it. If during a movie you become aware of the fact that certain things are pulled out of someone's ass as a plot crutch, you start to look at that movie in a completely different light, right? I do at least. I think it's a similar concept.

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Originally Posted by NightSpy2

Also maybe try WBTB, and during the period, focus of logical thinking, and be aware of your surroundings?

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I'm not sure how necessary the focus on logic and awareness is for a WBTB? If that helps then thats great since we're all different, but for me personally when I had a successful WBTB I immediately went back to sleep (less than 5 minutes after waking up) and focused only on creating the dream I was about to enter and reminding myself that I was about to be in a dream. Even though the WILD failed I very quickly gained that awareness in the dream.

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I'm not sure how necessary the focus on logic and awareness is for a WBTB? If that helps then thats great since we're all different, but for me personally when I had a successful WBTB I immediately went back to sleep (less than 5 minutes after waking up) and focused only on creating the dream I was about to enter and reminding myself that I was about to be in a dream. Even though the WILD failed I very quickly gained that awareness in the dream.

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So did you become lucid? I dont understand what you mean by <>I very quickly gained that awareness in the dream<> ??
And what Im trying to say about the logic, is like, for example,
If in a dream, you see something.. No, hold on. For example, during your daily day to day life, you see a chair in the middle of a room. You know that this chair can stand, because it has a physical presence, and it is supported by four legs, somewhat equidistant from each other, so therefore, 'Logically' it can stand, right? So then, if your in a dream for example, and you some random, irregular shape or object, Impossible object then, if your used to thinking logically, you will know that its not possible. Therefore, it will probably be a dream sign, and you will become lucid.. You know what I mean??

I dont know if it will work, but eh.. Just a thought.

Yes, I did become lucid. What I meant was I gained awareness of the fact that I was dreaming, sorry to be confusing. I shouldn't have used that word in that sentence.

I do get what you're saying. The steering wheel in my car being on the wrong side jolted me into lucidity one time (but I woke up) so I'm not disagreeing with you per se, just trying to point out that for the most part no matter how logical we try to be we still overlook those things. Which is why I've noticed some of the members here saying that reality checks generally don't cause you to become lucid and are useful only after you think you are lucid.. That didn't make sense to me at first, but I've got plenty of things written down in my personal dream journal that I would have absolutely called BS on in real life but because I was floating through the dream with no awareness, logic did not apply.

I think intention, and creative attention towards becoming lucid have a lot to do with becoming lucid...though I'm no authority on lucid dreaming.

I'm not sure if "awareness" is a distinct thing at all. I think it's built up by attention, logic, knowledge, and focus. Maybe some more. I haven't thought too hard on the subject. You need logic and knowledge to understand something. You need attention and focus to know it's there. If you don't understand it in some respect, you'll dismiss it and lose your focus of it and forget it is there. So for lucid dreaming, you need to pay attention and focus on your surroundings and you need to know that you are dreaming, know what you want to do, and reason out how best to accomplish the task.

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Originally Posted by Rawracookie

I'm not sure if "awareness" is a distinct thing at all. I think it's built up by attention, logic, knowledge, and focus. Maybe some more. I haven't thought too hard on the subject. You need logic and knowledge to understand something. You need attention and focus to know it's there. If you don't understand it in some respect, you'll dismiss it and lose your focus of it and forget it is there. So for lucid dreaming, you need to pay attention and focus on your surroundings and you need to know that you are dreaming, know what you want to do, and reason out how best to accomplish the task.

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Very true. I feel like awareness has a lot to it and is a combination of exactly what you said.

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Originally Posted by NrElAx

Very true. I feel like awareness has a lot to it and is a combination of exactly what you said.

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Allow me to disagree. Awareness does not equal to logic. Awareness is being a passive observer of what is happening, it is a very broad overview, without a particular focus or intent. At the same time, logic seeks to rationally prove or disprove something. Awareness is "just being", while logic is more like an intent to be logical. The distinction betwen the two becomes quite obvious as one goes deeper into a meditative/visualization state (for example HI). Let's say I have a glimpse of an HI Image. With awareness I may be aware of that and the fact that I'm seeing HI. But if I try to be logical about it, the attention instantly snaps to the image, and the image disintegrates.

Now, while deep in a dream, a dream scene may be able to survive such violent onslaught of logic, focus and intent, which may even bring lucidity as a side effect. While awareness brings the fact that you are dreaming just as another variable into the equation.

Awareness in its most basic usage means attentiveness. If you're aware, you're paying attention. In terms of lucid dreaming, however, the goal is to be actively attentive of your environment. Meaning, you need to pay attention to your environment and, in addition, be able to determine whether or not it's a dream (which requires logical processes). So the meaning of awareness is kind of skewed when you describe it as a tool in becoming lucid. But essentially the latter is what is being referred to in the context of lucid dreaming. I hope this settles the confusion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LiveInTheDream

I've been rather frustrated lately by my almost constant inability to lucid dream. Since pretty much the beginning of my attempts to intentionally lucid dream I actually noticed a decline in my ability to easily slip in and out of dreams, and now I am almost altogether unable to lucid dream on-demand. Couldn't I just go with DILD or MILD or one of those other induction techniques? Well, sure, and I have. And I've even discovered some of my own techniques along the way. And they really do work. But I've just realized something lately that makes me wonder if all these techniques are kind of missing the point.

The reason for this is not complicated...in fact, I discovered it by just going back to the basics to see what I was working with, instead of just trying to do ANOTHER technique. So I started with the question: what is a lucid dream, in the physical sense? I know what a lucid dream is in the definitive sense, but what does a lucid dream consist of in our real, physical world? And, more importantly, how can I activate this part of my existence every single night, without having to ruin my life during the day just so I can have a few minutes of excitement at night?

The answer: logic.

That's where lucid dreams consist: the logic portion of our brains; that part that shuts down during the night unless otherwise forcibly re-activated via external means (i.e. reality checks, for example).

But wait, there's more. It gets even simpler. If the logic portion of my brain is where lucid dreams are drawn from, and all I have to do in order to become lucid in a dream is to switch this part of my brain on one way or another...then do I really have to focus on dreams at all in order to go lucid? If I think logically in any way, shape, or form, I will know when I am dreaming and when I am not, as a natural side-effect.

Now, the question is, then, how can we cause ourselves to simply become more logical in our thinking to the point that we are habitually making logical observations about our environments without even making conscious effort to do so?

Discuss.

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I love you.

Peolpe are saying that they have non lucids where they think logically and this wont work but what my belief is that maybe they do alot of logic thinking during the day so it carries on into the dream but for people who are like me who watch cartoons and read fictional things most of the time without questioning anything or thinking logically, unlogical things will carry on into their dream so when they practice thinking logically they will pick it up and question it and There Goes the big RC

=D I saw the gorilla!!!
xD
But that's some very interesting stuff over there man.