Senses Initiated Lucid Dream (SSILD)

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Originally Posted by Bobblehat

Also - don't forget - many people report difficulties getting back to sleep after performing SSILD then reports LDs once they get back to sleep. In this case, SSILD gets the credit when it's clearly just a WBTB success.

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I tend to belong to this camp of thought on SSILD, not entirely, but most of the way. If you're awake, intending to lucid dream, and can hang your awareness somewhere so you can do this while you return to sleep, well that's great. Even if that's all that SSILD is, a particular mental anchor, then it's still something useful! In the end, does it really matter that "SSILD works" or not as long as the end result is lucidity?

At the very least, it's a concrete series of steps to place your awareness while falling back to sleep intending to lucid dream.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

I tend to belong to this camp of thought on SSILD, not entirely, but most of the way. If you're awake, intending to lucid dream, and can hang your awareness somewhere so you can do this while you return to sleep, well that's great. Even if that's all that SSILD is, a particular mental anchor, then it's still something useful! In the end, does it really matter that "SSILD works" or not as long as the end result is lucidity?

At the very least, it's a concrete series of steps to place your awareness while falling back to sleep intending to lucid dream.

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I would refer everyone to another of my threads where I discuss that the question of 'which technique' really doesn't matter compared to intent, but that would be starting to get egotistical.

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I would refer everyone to another of my threads where I discuss that the question of 'which technique' really doesn't matter compared to intent, but that would be starting to get egotistical.

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I was recently very astonished to read the dream yoga practice section of "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep". Written in 1998, it mentions what we call in our language: frequent WBTB (every 2 hours), setting strong intention at bedtime to lucid dream and recall dreams and have vivid dreams, day memory review considering the memories as dreams (MILD), quieting the mind before bed, meditation (of course), learning concentration, and using concrete visualizations when falling asleep (WILD -- mental anchors), reviewing dreams upon waking (MILD), feeling joy at experiencing lucid dreams and remembering dreams (positive mindset), and daytime awareness/reflection on the nature of reality as a dream (reflection).

I really had a feeling like "Everything I need to know about LDing, the Tibetans had already been doing for centuries." Very eye-opening book, I heartily recommend it.

I had two LDs [one was awesome] in the night following reading this section for the first time two nights ago, and very interesting dreams and great recall last night as well, coming out of a bit of a recall dry spell.

It made me realize my intention had been weak/lazy/habitual before. He emphasizes the intention must be really strong. I visualize it as my shooting an arrow using a massively powerful bow, shooting my intention "into the night" so that I may encounter it all night long and remember to become lucid.

The day review of memories, considering all as dream, is very powerful as well I think. I can spend 20 minutes or more just on this step usually. It's a good workout of memory, too.

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

... but that would be starting to get egotistical.

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Oh, how awfully British!

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Originally Posted by Bobblehat

Oh, how awfully British!

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Re: "Awfully British": Start at 1:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1oMhMwUbgc

It may be asked already but i can't find it: Do I have to wake up after 4 - 5 hours at the beginning of a REM period, already in a REM period, or at the end?

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Originally Posted by Martijn0162

It may be asked already but i can't find it: Do I have to wake up after 4 - 5 hours at the beginning of a REM period, already in a REM period, or at the end?

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It's suggested that you try this after 4-5 hours of sleep, so that REM will be closer at hand.

Okay, so scratch that post I made last night, about how SSILD had stopped working after initial success. Maybe calling it out publicly helped re-establish my motivation, or maybe I just needed an extra-long WBTB to counteract habituation, but last night I had good results again.

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I would refer everyone to another of my threads where I discuss that the question of 'which technique' really doesn't matter compared to intent, but that would be starting to get egotistical.

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On one level I totally agree with this, but "intent" is a slippery beast! I remember learning about first-order and second-order desires, basically "wanting" something versus "wanting to want" something. Yet the motivation needed for LDing (at least for me!) feels like another order entirely. Most nights I want to LD, and I always want to want to LD, but even feeling this way and practicing sincerely I still sometimes end up with long dry spells.

It feels like the only level of intent that is genuinely effective occurs on a much deeper level that I haven't yet figured out how to reliably harness. So when it comes to comparing techniques, one of the key questions is: which one (or combination of them) best engages the necessary intensity of intent? I guess that's is something that we all have to figure out for ourselves...

^^ Yes, finding and forming that deep, true, strong, pure intent is at the heart of success at LDing. I don't think it's attached to any technique, it's just you!

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

^^ Yes, finding and forming that deep, true, strong, pure intent is at the heart of success at LDing. I don't think it's attached to any technique, it's just you!

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Sometimes I wish it were otherwise. Lucid dreaming teaches you what a jerk your own mind can be!

(I was tempted to use stronger language but figured this was a family forum...) :tonguewiggle:

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Originally Posted by Verre

Sometimes I wish it were otherwise. Lucid dreaming teaches you what a jerk your own mind can be!

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Yes especially when it doesn't fall back immediately to (lucid!) sleep on command.

I keep losing focus. I concentrate on sight, then hearing and then touch, just as explained, but on the second cycle my thoughts start to wander, and I never get that sleepy feeling. What am I doing wrong?

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Originally Posted by Elaol

I keep losing focus. I concentrate on sight, then hearing and then touch, just as explained, but on the second cycle my thoughts start to wander, and I never get that sleepy feeling. What am I doing wrong?

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From your description, it sounds like you are still on the faster cycles when this happens, but either way the following suggestion would be step 1 before the faster cycles and slower cycles. This is nothing official, but I have been using SSILD for over a year and have a hunch on what may help you. The following should make it easier to keep focused on the progression through the cycles. Basically you switch between the senses faster as a kind of warm up to doing the regular faster and slower SSILD cycle. Focus on sight during 2 breaths, hearing during the next 2 breaths, then touch with the next 2 breaths. Repeat several times until it feels almost automatic and then you can progress to the regular 15-20 second fast cycles before going on to the longer ones. You could even try one breath each, but I would say try 2 first. You can also practice during the day, but it sounds like sleepiness is not the problem.

If your mind is starting to wander to thoughts of waking life problems, take a moment to write them down on a to do list or to assure yourself that those problems are already being addressed, whichever is the case.

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Originally Posted by fogelbise

From your description, it sounds like you are still on the faster cycles when this happens, but either way the following suggestion would be step 1 before the faster cycles and slower cycles. This is nothing official, but I have been using SSILD for over a year and have a hunch on what may help you. The following should make it easier to keep focused on the progression through the cycles. Basically you switch between the senses faster as a kind of warm up to doing the regular faster and slower SSILD cycle. Focus on sight during 2 breaths, hearing during the next 2 breaths, then touch with the next 2 breaths. Repeat several times until it feels almost automatic and then you can progress to the regular 15-20 second fast cycles before going on to the longer ones. You could even try one breath each, but I would say try 2 first. You can also practice during the day, but it sounds like sleepiness is not the problem.

If your mind is starting to wander to thoughts of waking life problems, take a moment to write them down on a to do list or to assure yourself that those problems are already being addressed, whichever is the case.

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This sounds like great advice to me, but didn't the OP suggest that wandering thoughts were a good sign? Has user experience suggested otherwise?

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Originally Posted by ThreeCat

This sounds like great advice to me, but didn't the OP suggest that wandering thoughts were a good sign? Has user experience suggested otherwise?

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It sounded like he wasn't able to get to the 2nd and 3rd senses at all, so the wandering thoughts seemed to be too much. I find the waking life worry type of wandering thoughts counter-productive. Perhaps he meant the 2nd or slower cycles were the ones he wasn't able to get to. Now if you start getting the beginning of dreams - those kind of wandering thoughts then you should be approaching sleep and hopefully also getting "that sleepy feeling" he mentioned never getting to. Basically when using SSILD for DILDs, the basic idea is to complete the cycles and doze off.

Let me try to address some of the questions I saw since my last visit here.

"How do I focus on the senses?"

Very simple. Just say this in your head -- "I'm now focusing on ____". Then mentally scan the corresponding directions. For sight, it's the "up" direction. For hearing it's the horizontal direction. And for body it's the vertical direction. You don't need to see, hear, or feel anything. It's the "ritual" that matters.

"How long should I stay awake before doing SSILD"

It depends. If you REALLY want it to succeed then you should become fully awake, but then you may never get back to sleep. You can also stay in your bed and not get up at all and try to chain the exercise upon each subsequent awakening, which tends to be very effective if you practice it well. The thing is, SSILD works by increasing your chance to become lucid, but it does not guarantee success. If it works today, great. If it doesn't, you still a lot of opportunities to try it in your life. That's the attitude SSILD promotes. If you absolutely want success every time, then I suggest you look at some of the WILD methods. But I warn you, a method that theoretically guarantees success doesn't necessarily mean it will apply to you.

"Why has SSILD stopped working"
No definitive answer here. Could be the timing, your physical and mental condition, or the way you perform the technique, and etc. One thing that may be universal though could be intention. Do you intend for it to work this time? How strong? A person who never know what Lucid Dreaming is May have lower chance to become lucid, with every technique. That's intention at work here.

Here is a tip for all of you, not just those with the questions -- SSILD can put you into a delicate state between reality and dream upon each awakening. There is no apparent line between these two states. You think you are awake? Then you are truly awake. You want to go into your dreams, we'll you can do that too. At this strange stage, you can choose to move your physical body or your dream body. Soon as you move your dream body you are in a dream. If you learn to utilize this special state then you will have 100% success rate, guaranteed. I and some of my friends have learnt to do this naturally, easily shifting the focus from physical to dream, and vice versa. For beginners you can try this -- you wake up from SSILD. You are absolutely certain you are awake. Don't despair. Relax and allow your head to sink into the pillow. Focus on your nose and imagine that you are lifting your hand to pinch it. You probably will feel some weight on your nose and that's great. That sensation will help you. It is the sensation caused by your imaginary fingers pinching it. Once you manage to feel that your fingers have grabbed your nose you can try breathe. If you can breath the you are already in a dream. Don't let go of your fingers,. Keep focusing on them and roll out of your bed. Voila, you are in your dream world. Keep in mind -- I'm not talking about false awakening here. This is real awakening. But if you do what I say, with practice, you may be able to turn these real awakenings into lucid dreams, even AFTER you have physically moved. That's the beauty of SSILD.

"is SSILD just WBTB?"
What isn't.? You need WBTB for just about every techniques. WBTB alone with strong intention may work, but that's more hit and miss. Some people read up on lucid dreaming during WBTB to set up their intentions, and if you wish, you can consider SSILD to be the equivalent of doing that. Treat it like a way to anchor your intentions and nothing more. As long as you are getting the result I'm happy for you :) On the other hand, my experience as well as those of many others lead me to believe there is much more to the technique than just a simple intention-setting tool.

I sometimes end up waking after SSILD, but more often than not, like WILD or any other technique, I just end up falling asleep. SSILD does up my recall and dream vividness as seems to be the consensus for others in these forums.
That's why I recommend even for the skeptics that SSILD could be a powerful booster or leverage towards LD's even if you use other methods.

After 1 month trying it, no LD. Strange dreams, but no LD.

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Originally Posted by CosmicIron

You are absolutely certain you are awake. Don't despair. Relax and allow your head to sink into the pillow. Focus on your nose and imagine that you are lifting your hand to pinch it. You probably will feel some weight on your nose and that's great. That sensation will help you. It is the sensation caused by your imaginary fingers pinching it. Once you manage to feel that your fingers have grabbed your nose you can try breathe. If you can breath the you are already in a dream. Don't let go of your fingers,. Keep focusing on them and roll out of your bed. Voila, you are in your dream world.

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this sounds like an interesting technique. so you breathe out of your mouth? i find myself waking up from ssild and would like to take advantage of it, can you elaborate on this method?

Lately i've been having this chills/shivers that happen to me when trying to SSILD. After WBTB i will go back to bed, lay down, start relaxing and start doing the cycles. As i do more cycles and my trance deepens, in the middle of my back this waves of chills/shivers will start and then sometimes spread up to my head, down my legs or just back area. They feel as if you are slightly cold but the room isn't cold. If i roll on my side and continue to sleep normally, i don't get them, only when i do SSILD.

This has been happening a lot to me for a while now and i have no idea what these chills/shivers mean or if they are some sensation asscociated with how close i am to enter SP, dream or something. I know they are not vibrations for sure, since i had few experiences with vibrations and know how they feel and look like.

I've got a big problem with SSILD. I do use the technique sporadically and I'm fairly surely it improves my dream vividness. I'm also sure cosmic has brought something new to the LD world's table. The problem I have is, nobody can say for sure how it works but everyone seems to accept the current form of the technique as THE finalised technique, like it's a finished product. Surely if we're not sure how something really works that leaves room for improvement and we should all be tweaking/experimenting like mad? Cosmic did a lot of the development of SSILD and experimenting on a Chinese language forum but I'm left with the feeling that we, at dreamviews, are not privy to the experimenting that's gone on - we're only left with the final, "perfected" version.

Not everybody, look through this thread and elsewhere on the forums you'll find lots of variants. LDing is all about adapting approaches to yourself. I used SSILD as one of my bag-of-tricks techniques to calming my mind and displacing thoughts in order to approach sleep. In doing so I usually only spend 1 breath on each of the 3 senses. By using a "one breath" switch I can avoid the (even tiny) mental activity required to determine if it's time to switch yet. For me, maintaining awareness is not the issue, it's getting to sleep, so this works for me.

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Originally Posted by Bobblehat

I've got a big problem with SSILD. I do use the technique sporadically and I'm fairly surely it improves my dream vividness. I'm also sure cosmic has brought something new to the LD world's table. The problem I have is, nobody can say for sure how it works but everyone seems to accept the current form of the technique as THE finalised technique, like it's a finished product. Surely if we're not sure how something really works that leaves room for improvement and we should all be tweaking/experimenting like mad? Cosmic did a lot of the development of SSILD and experimenting on a Chinese language forum but I'm left with the feeling that we, at dreamviews, are not privy to the experimenting that's gone on - we're only left with the final, "perfected" version.

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I totally agree that more experiments are needed in order to improve the technique, and I'd never claim the current version is final and "perfected". As for why and how it works I feel that all theories are essentially hypothesis until science understands what lucid dreaming really is, and that applies to just about all techniques. Therefore, even though there are no lack of people who claim to know exactly how the technique works, I have always told them to keep an open mind and consider other possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Imaginary

Lately i've been having this chills/shivers that happen to me when trying to SSILD. After WBTB i will go back to bed, lay down, start relaxing and start doing the cycles. As i do more cycles and my trance deepens, in the middle of my back this waves of chills/shivers will start and then sometimes spread up to my head, down my legs or just back area. They feel as if you are slightly cold but the room isn't cold. If i roll on my side and continue to sleep normally, i don't get them, only when i do SSILD.

This has been happening a lot to me for a while now and i have no idea what these chills/shivers mean or if they are some sensation asscociated with how close i am to enter SP, dream or something. I know they are not vibrations for sure, since i had few experiences with vibrations and know how they feel and look like.

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I've had similar sensations coupled with slight sinking sensations. Usually at this point I know I'm getting close.

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Originally Posted by Bobblehat

Surely if we're not sure how something really works that leaves room for improvement and we should all be tweaking/experimenting like mad?

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Straight-up SSILD worked great for me the first few times, but shortly afterwards habituation set in and thwarted my success. I think I get habituated to techniques way too easily! (For instance, FILD worked for me literally once, the very first time, but not on a single occasion after that. My mind was like, "Whatever. Fingers. Got it. Going to sleep now.")

I've actually kept a form of SSILD in my arsenal, but with a tweak. Now I implement the senses-scanning rotation as a form of seated meditation practice at the very end of a long WBTB, just before returning to bed and performing my usual WILD techniques. I have the impression that this addition perhaps does improve my success rate, or at least certainly doesn't do any harm. I'm not sure if CosmicIron would approve, but in the end we all just have to fiddle around and figure out what works best for us.

I also think it's totally awesome that the DV community has a counterpart in China!

trying this technique in the morning, aaaand real wake up with crossed vision (crossed eyes too for a few minutes)