Where do you draw the line between chivalry and the "nice guy syndrome"

Alpha male qualities might have some influence on initial attraction, but at least for me if the guy seems really mean or thoughtless that completely ruins it. Actually in most cases I'm not attracted to alpha males at all. Although in some cases I am and I recognize that that's the reason. It actually kind of annoys me that it happens at all. It would only work for me if he was intelligent in making decisions, and he has to care about stuff and not want to hurt people. If someone's just an asshole who controls people through physical or even mental strength I won't be attracted to him.

I find it's best to just try and get to know a girl, be yourself, and don't be afraid to start a conversation. Just be polite, make eye-contact, smile, and laugh. If she seems cool offer to buy her a drink. if you met her somewhere without drinks go to a restaurant or a bar or somewhere you can get her a drink of some-kind. Doesn't matter what. Then, when she's not looking, slip in a roofie.

Here's my simplified dating advice: act like a regular human being, who's interested in dating another regular human being.

If you have a problem with that, then you probably shouldn't be dating at all (or at least I wouldn't want to date you).

Not sure what people are understanding by the word 'chivalry' in order to think it's a negative thing; it just means treating a woman with respect, being polite and going out of your way to help her, like carrying heavy shopping out of the car or whatever. And yes, as long as it's always clear that the man is doing it out of his own volition (rather than it coming across as pandering and servile), women patently do like it; it's 'manly' but it's also just common courtesy and the way you would act by default if you are emotionally attracted to somebody.

Anybody complaining that chivalry is discrimination is a pretty sad person to be honest. There are much worse things in the world than courtesy, Christ, get a grip.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Anybody complaining that chivalry is discrimination is a pretty sad person to be honest. There are much worse things in the world than courtesy, Christ, get a grip.

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A compelling and rational analysis, clearly founded on confidence in a well-thought-out position :P

/sarcasm

Oh boo hoo, yesterday my girlfriend was nice to me all day. We went to a restaurant and she held the door open for me. Later she asked if I wanted any salt. If I needed salt I would've picked up the fucking salt myself, I hate her continuously treating me like an incompetent weakling.

Oh wait, I'm retarded and so are you.

As it so happens, I've been giving this very subject a ton of thought over the past few weeks, possibly the past few months.

I believe, given my aforementioned thoughts, that perhaps no such line must be drawn. Being a 'nice guy' should not be done in an effort to prove your self-worth to some potential dating partner. Your being a 'nice guy' should be done out of a genuine interest in the wellbeing of your peers and your elders. Certainly we can agree that everyone deserves a certain amount of respect, just for being a living, breathing human being.

That being said, I, personally, take no intense steps in being 'chivalrous' or being a 'nice guy'. It's just become an automatic process that is enacted towards everyone that I meet, not just that one person that I might be trying to attract. Whether that mean that I hold a door for someone, or loan them a dollar and ask them to keep the change. I'm of the belief that you should constantly interact with everyone you come across, not just those that you're necessarily "interested" in, and what better way to interact with everyone than to simply be a 'nice guy'? Everyone loves being treated well. What makes it creepy to be nice is when they realize, or you realize, that you're just doing it in your own best interest, to get in good with them.

Whether people approve of you or not, if you're going to be a 'nice guy' then be a PROUD 'nice guy'. You're not being nice because you're clamoring for attention. You're being nice because being nice is... well, nice.

There's nothing wrong with being nice, but there are gender limitations on certain 'nice' acts. For example, it would look ridiculous for a girl to hold a door open for a guy. Most men probably don't think about that since they never have to deal with it. If a guy opens a door for a female or a male, he'll be judged positively by those people and anyone watching. But I can't do that, especially not for a guy. Even doing it for a girl makes me feel awkward, like I'm being judged as trying to act like a man.

For example, on a train once I was sitting next to a girl and did about 3 nice things for her in a row, just because I felt the genuine need to help another human. I told her about the free water in a certain car, I helped her find something, and I rummaged through my suitcase to find my headphones just so that I could offer them to her (because she didn't have the cash to buy the $4 ones they were selling and wanted to watch the movie). If a guy had done this, it would be completely acceptable and nice, and she might develop an attraction to him. But I started to feel extremely awkward and embarrassed. I even started worrying that she might think I'm a lesbian and attracted to her. Maybe it wouldn't have seemed so strange if we had been talking and became friendly, but we hadn't really been talking at all.

One might say there's nothing wrong with this, and I suppose nothing really is. Men are generally stronger and they have a natural role to protect women, and the act of protecting is viewed as attractive. So it makes sense for that to be extended to modern life, for the guy to kind of 'protect' a woman by helping her perform some tasks. A side-effect might be that women can't really help anyone they don't know well without awkwardness, but maybe the benefits outweigh that minor cost.

There are two main problems I have with it though. One only applies for a certain mindset of the guy. Usually this occurs in older people, but there are exceptions. People who are used to women really being helpless. As someone wrote in this thread earlier, they think of women like precious objects. They assume that women will expect this chivalry and be attracted to it, so they use it to try to manipulate them. Behind the mindset lurks a belief that women are on some level inferior.

If someone doesn't have this mindset, if they know that women are capable of doing the thing themselves and that the woman doesn't expect it of them, I have no problem with it. I even feel flattery in response to it sometimes.

My other problem with it, even when someone does have the mindset I just described, is that in public other people will judge. If there's a crowd, at least a few of them will have the formerly described mindset and will judge me to be a helpless female. Whenever someone opens a door for me in public, I get a kind of embarrassed feeling. I'm not sure where that comes from, it just happens.

In the specific case of doors, I also have a minor personal almost OCDish problem where it just feels uncomfortable for me to walk through a door without touching it. I'm so used to opening doors myself that the rare times someone does it for me it just feels wrong, so combined with what I've said above I always get an (unjustified) moment of annoyance (which I never voice), but I'm probably the only one who has that problem.

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Originally Posted by Dianeva

There's nothing wrong with being nice, but there are gender limitations on certain 'nice' acts. For example, it would look ridiculous for a girl to hold a door open for a guy. Most men probably don't think about that since they never have to deal with it. If a guy opens a door for a female or a male, he'll be judged positively by those people and anyone watching. But I can't do that, especially not for a guy. Even doing it for a girl makes me feel awkward, like I'm being judged as trying to act like a man.

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The other night I held a door open for a guy who was carrying a small box, he said thanks, and I felt good about myself. Same thing for a girl I held a door for once who was holding a pet carrier out of the grooming center. I really don't think people read gender into small acts of courtesy, in fact I think men find it refreshing for a woman to step up and do nice things for them. And by god, that's as it should be, because it's 2011 now.

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For example, on a train once I was sitting next to a girl and did about 3 nice things for her in a row, just because I felt the genuine need to help another human. I told her about the free water in a certain car, I helped her find something, and I rummaged through my suitcase to find my headphones just so that I could offer them to her (because she didn't have the cash to buy the $4 ones they were selling and wanted to watch the movie). If a guy had done this, it would be completely acceptable and nice, and she might develop an attraction to him. But I started to feel extremely awkward and embarrassed. I even started worrying that she might think I'm a lesbian and attracted to her. Maybe it wouldn't have seemed so strange if we had been talking and became friendly, but we hadn't really been talking at all.

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No offense, but I think that's more of a personal hang-up you have, rather than the social culture around us. Even if someone does scoff or make a stink about it, who cares? They're just a sexist asshole. It's their loss, not yours, so just move on. Even if cultural obstacles do exist, which in this case I don't think they do anymore, is don't let any notion like that control you and inhibit you. That just perpetuates out-dated behavior.

I'm not trying to imply anything mean, but I would be willingly to bet you're the only one who felt awkward. People tend to feel like everyone is judging them when in reality they're the only ones thinking anything negative about themselves.

Besides, even if it just so happened you got, unfortunately, stuck on the car with all the judgmental jerks, why does that matter? Just do what you want! If you wanted to help the girl, just do it. You're being nice just because you want to, and if they have a problem, then that's their problem, not yours.

There's a difference between doing what you want when you're, say, singing loudly in a crowded place and forcing people to listen to it...

And say, helping someone out even though the people around you or that person may feel somehow offended or put off by it. Just do it anyway. It's your life and you can do whatever you want.

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Interestingly enough, and much to everyone's dismay, I'm sure; this reminds me of this My Little Pony show that is featured on my avatar over there.

When I started watching it, I was incredibly embarrassed about the fact that I liked it. I'm a 17 year old guy! I look like I'm 25, and here I am watching My Little Pony.

Eventually, though, as I realized just how good it was, and just how much I do like it, it occurred to me that I wanted to watch it. And I wanted to watch it in front of other people. If they didn't like it, that was too bad, because I think it's hilarious, and incredibly well characterized and written. Now I have a Pony shirt and am perfectly unafraid to unabashedly declare my love for the show to people I've never met, and the ones I have. My family and friends. A lot of them are watching it now too.

If you want to help people, or if you want to watch My Little Pony, or anything else you could possibly do, if you feel you're in the right, then stand up and defend it. Whether you're female or male or any other variance in your person, just except what you are and who you are. If they don't, realize that you do, and what you think of yourself matters miles more than what they think of you.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I find it's best to just try and get to know a girl, be yourself, and don't be afraid to start a conversation. Just be polite, make eye-contact, smile, and laugh. If she seems cool offer to buy her a drink. if you met her somewhere without drinks go to a restaurant or a bar or somewhere you can get her a drink of some-kind. Doesn't matter what. Then, when she's not looking, slip in a roofie.

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How may mL do you use? I always use about 3 eyedrops and they stay asleep through the entire thing. And even after when I'm leaving... maybe i should use less...

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Originally Posted by Dianeva

There's nothing wrong with being nice, but there are gender limitations on certain 'nice' acts. For example, it would look ridiculous for a girl to hold a door open for a guy. Most men probably don't think about that since they never have to deal with it.

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:eh:

Girls don't slam doors in my face lol.

It's really too bad something like holding the door open for someone has to turn into a complicated social issue.

My post disappeared.... wtf? Did I post it somewhere else again? FUUUUUUCK

Fuck. Can't find it. Stupid DV.

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Originally Posted by tommo

Stupid DV.

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http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/13...d4756f95c9.jpg

I guess the overwhelming opinion is that my post was completely bat-shit crazy, so as usual my intuition about what people are thinking is completely wrong.

No - not batshit crazy.

I actually was thinking about your post today as I was driving around town. I think it comes down to this..

As you say, you're a little OCD. I think that causes you to sometimes think a lot deeper into things than most people do. Your explanations of things like this often go into great detail that otherwise we'd never get into, and I find that refreshing, and it's always a point we can step off from to create more dialogue.

Also I wouldn't say your intuition about what people were thinking is completely wrong, but I'd say it probably reflects your own anxieties more than an objective reality. I don't mean that in bad way, I hope you don't take it that way.

No I don't take it in a bad way. I don't know where I got the idea that people think this way, it just seems like they do. It will be hard to convince myself otherwise.

chivalry = the nice guy syndrom.

but w/e i'd date lancelot.

I've been called "lance - a lot" from time to time....

You have a cyst problem?

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A Lance is a pole weapon or spear designed to be used by a mounted warrior hot woman

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gfhzeh