So let's be honest...do women even like chivalry, or do they just say they do? I'm under the impression that they like badass guys who don't really care what they want.
What's the difference in being chivalrous and being a "nice guy."
Just wondering.
I've never personally liked 'chivalary' at all, nor do I say I do. Being nice is fine, it's good to act nice toward everyone no matter what their gender.
Well I suppose if you have want Chivalry then the idea is to treat the woman like an object instead of a person, but a very precious object. This means her opinion does not matter and all control and independence on her part is an illusion. I think that's distinct from being a Nice Guy.
Humans tend to do the opposite of what they say. Woman says "All I want is a guy who makes me laugh, treats me well, etc." Then she finds a tool who treats her terribly. Man says he wants a meaningful relationship, finds slut, makes relationship only about sex.
We're a curious race.
I agree. Being generous is great, but I wouldn't like to be patronized, or pitted in a "courtesy" game with strings attached.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianeva
A lot of it comes down to fear. People too busy running don't stop and think "what is it I really want?" cause they're too frightened of not achieving what they think they're supposed to have. JMOQuote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
If you're a confident, good looking guy you're being chivalrous, but if you're an awkward, dorky kind of guy you're suffering from nice guy syndrome. It's that simple.
Depends. Usually if I'm looking for a girl to have some one-off relationship, then yeah, I'm probably quite chivalrous. However, when it comes to long term relationships, I usually act a lot nicer. I like the fact that both partners are equal in the relationship and I love having someone to constantly challenge myself intellectually. :hug:
Chivalry often is a smokescreen for misogyny, and the women who respond to it are often those who have accepted the idea that being female makes them helpless. If that's the kind of girl you're after, by all means alternate chivalry with alpha behavior. If you want a true partner, or hell, if you want to be the helpless one (I would not object to being a kept man :cheeky: I can cook, ladies, and I'm good with kids), then you may not want to overdo it opening doors and sparing your intended the least exertion. A big part of getting together is finding someone who is doing the same mating dance as you, rather than chasing after someone on a totally different wavelength.
I have to admit though, that stupid sandwich/kitchen joke everyone uses has gone a bit too far. I actually really like cooking, but apparently cooking is becoming a feminine thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosaur
It's strange, not long ago (I think the 50s?) women were not allowed to perform on stage nor to cook in restaurants. Now cooking and theater are both considered more feminine occupations unless you're an action star or an italian chef.
Cooking was always regarded as a feminine thing - it's nothing new! It has nothing to do with having female genitalia. Some people can get really tech with their cooking; but all it really boils (huehuehue) down to is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantiq
1. Can you read? If yes, then follow directions.
If no, then leave kitchen and obtain KFC.
I cook just to go that extra mile for a loved one, not to patronize. Don't our loved ones always deserve our very best?
PS - I spit on the so-called "bad boys." They might seem more attractive on the outside but they tend to not go anywhere in life, while I will always be more successful, have more luxuries to enjoy, and of course put my lady's well-being before my own!
It's always been a feminine thing (except for cooking outdoors on the grill). For the 50s nuclear family ideal, the husband goes and makes money while the wife cooks, cleans and raises the kids. After a hard day of work, the husband comes home and expects a nice warm meal to be ready for him. I hate the kitchen jokes too, they're not even clever, funny or original. I do like cooking though (mostly Asian/Indian food).Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantiq
Cooking is an artform that requires love, attention, experience and literacy
The idea behind "go in the kitchen and bake me a pie" is not so much that cooking is feminine, but that women are subservient to men. While there is a tradition of the kitchen in the home being the woman's domain (dating from a time when fewer married women worked outside the home), the opposite is true in professional kitchens. When you hear "chef," do you think first of a woman or a man? Professional kitchens are dominated by men.
For the general population, though, it doesn't seem like there's any gender-based expectation attached to cooking anymore. Lots of guys like to cook (I just made a big ol' pot of veggie gumbo for a potluck tonight), and cooking together or trading off cooking duties are both pretty common for couples.
If your aspiration is to be a professional chef as your career, then yes, you might need some or all of those multisyllabic words you have written.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
If you're making a special dinner for your hubby, no. I think you're allotting too much integrity to it. I'm not trying to lessen the value of taking care of one's family, but the point I'm making is that men are more than capable of getting off their asses and doing it. Women don't have to do everything.
Meh I like cooking for the experimentation. But if I had to take care of a family we'd be eating a lot of spaghetti.
I love spaghetti. If I was cooking my own meals I'd probably eat spaghetti every second night. I'm motivated to learn how to cook something if I like it enough.
It seems like many women are viewed as kitchen slaves (at least in generations before mine). They treat cooking like a job when they've been doing it every day, and the result is often generic and boring. But men are viewed to be more likely to cook new and exciting foods with strong tastes. That's why chefs are usually men. I have no idea if the real world tends to be like this. It's just the bias (if it is one) that I've noticed.
In a way, if it's true, it makes sense. Women generally cook more often than men, so they get bored of it and just want to get it done. They have to think about making healthy foods, since they're cooking for their families every day. But men cook more rarely, so they view it as a new exciting task and try to make the best-tasting meal they can think of.
That seems to be the case in my family at least. My mom was always the one who cooked, and her meals were pretty boring. On the rare occasions that my dad cooked, the food turned out a lot better, because he'd usually make better-tasting (often less healthy) foods like Casa Dias and BBQ. This is kind of unfortunate because it creates the illusion (unless it's not an illusion) that men are just naturally better at everything, even cooking which is typically a woman's job, even though they don't do it often. When my brother was about 13 I heard him say something similar in response to my dad's cooking, and I don't think he was joking.
I seem to have defulted to chili about every 2 or 3 weeks. It's simple and good - unless I put too much Chili-P (heh - little Breaking Bad inside joke there) or red pepper in it like I did last night!! Argh!! I can feel it burning all through my digestive system. Not pleasant. Wow, no wonder they put this stuff in aerosol cans for personal defense!! Heh - I just had a bowl and used twice the normal amount of macaroni and crackers and half the normal amount of chili, still feelin it! So yeah - men being adventurous and all. Not always good though.
Spaghetti and barbecued ribs are my next most usual dishes. Oh, and then the awesome crock-pot beef stew! Yeah, great stuff!!
I gotta admit though - for a couple weeks it's been mostly Taco Bell and Subway! They're getting to know me at both of them (for reals yo!)
Thread de-railed.
How did you even post a blank post? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper
http://i.imgur.com/0HzqO.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper
FTFY
derp
Thank you, dear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sornaensis
I wouldn't bother with either. I'll lay it down for you.
Step 1: Be a massive douchebag to everyone and clearly flaunt your "alpha" qualities.
Step 2: Be a dick, and attempt to demean others who could threaten your status as alpha male.
Step 3: Be a dick, and attempt to demean others who don't threaten your status as alpha male.
Step 4: Profit! You now have all the women clambering for a go at you.
In case you aren't able to follow those steps perhaps I can break it down in a standard scenario for you. Let's say that you've spotted someone who falls under step 3. The best way to demean someone is to publicly humiliate them as best as you can. For example you could throw an object or liquid at them, while combining it with an insult to lower said person's self esteem such as "faggot". The nearest woman should do something along the lines of hitting you on the shoulder playfully while saying "Awww your such a jerk". Then they will likely go and provide fake pity for your target. The woman in question will now be crushing on you quite hard. Congratulations!
though this post was sarcastic, i`m actually being serious. it will work.
Alpha male qualities might have some influence on initial attraction, but at least for me if the guy seems really mean or thoughtless that completely ruins it. Actually in most cases I'm not attracted to alpha males at all. Although in some cases I am and I recognize that that's the reason. It actually kind of annoys me that it happens at all. It would only work for me if he was intelligent in making decisions, and he has to care about stuff and not want to hurt people. If someone's just an asshole who controls people through physical or even mental strength I won't be attracted to him.
I find it's best to just try and get to know a girl, be yourself, and don't be afraid to start a conversation. Just be polite, make eye-contact, smile, and laugh. If she seems cool offer to buy her a drink. if you met her somewhere without drinks go to a restaurant or a bar or somewhere you can get her a drink of some-kind. Doesn't matter what. Then, when she's not looking, slip in a roofie.
Here's my simplified dating advice: act like a regular human being, who's interested in dating another regular human being.
If you have a problem with that, then you probably shouldn't be dating at all (or at least I wouldn't want to date you).
Not sure what people are understanding by the word 'chivalry' in order to think it's a negative thing; it just means treating a woman with respect, being polite and going out of your way to help her, like carrying heavy shopping out of the car or whatever. And yes, as long as it's always clear that the man is doing it out of his own volition (rather than it coming across as pandering and servile), women patently do like it; it's 'manly' but it's also just common courtesy and the way you would act by default if you are emotionally attracted to somebody.
Anybody complaining that chivalry is discrimination is a pretty sad person to be honest. There are much worse things in the world than courtesy, Christ, get a grip.
A compelling and rational analysis, clearly founded on confidence in a well-thought-out position :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Xei
/sarcasm
Oh boo hoo, yesterday my girlfriend was nice to me all day. We went to a restaurant and she held the door open for me. Later she asked if I wanted any salt. If I needed salt I would've picked up the fucking salt myself, I hate her continuously treating me like an incompetent weakling.
Oh wait, I'm retarded and so are you.
As it so happens, I've been giving this very subject a ton of thought over the past few weeks, possibly the past few months.
I believe, given my aforementioned thoughts, that perhaps no such line must be drawn. Being a 'nice guy' should not be done in an effort to prove your self-worth to some potential dating partner. Your being a 'nice guy' should be done out of a genuine interest in the wellbeing of your peers and your elders. Certainly we can agree that everyone deserves a certain amount of respect, just for being a living, breathing human being.
That being said, I, personally, take no intense steps in being 'chivalrous' or being a 'nice guy'. It's just become an automatic process that is enacted towards everyone that I meet, not just that one person that I might be trying to attract. Whether that mean that I hold a door for someone, or loan them a dollar and ask them to keep the change. I'm of the belief that you should constantly interact with everyone you come across, not just those that you're necessarily "interested" in, and what better way to interact with everyone than to simply be a 'nice guy'? Everyone loves being treated well. What makes it creepy to be nice is when they realize, or you realize, that you're just doing it in your own best interest, to get in good with them.
Whether people approve of you or not, if you're going to be a 'nice guy' then be a PROUD 'nice guy'. You're not being nice because you're clamoring for attention. You're being nice because being nice is... well, nice.
There's nothing wrong with being nice, but there are gender limitations on certain 'nice' acts. For example, it would look ridiculous for a girl to hold a door open for a guy. Most men probably don't think about that since they never have to deal with it. If a guy opens a door for a female or a male, he'll be judged positively by those people and anyone watching. But I can't do that, especially not for a guy. Even doing it for a girl makes me feel awkward, like I'm being judged as trying to act like a man.
For example, on a train once I was sitting next to a girl and did about 3 nice things for her in a row, just because I felt the genuine need to help another human. I told her about the free water in a certain car, I helped her find something, and I rummaged through my suitcase to find my headphones just so that I could offer them to her (because she didn't have the cash to buy the $4 ones they were selling and wanted to watch the movie). If a guy had done this, it would be completely acceptable and nice, and she might develop an attraction to him. But I started to feel extremely awkward and embarrassed. I even started worrying that she might think I'm a lesbian and attracted to her. Maybe it wouldn't have seemed so strange if we had been talking and became friendly, but we hadn't really been talking at all.
One might say there's nothing wrong with this, and I suppose nothing really is. Men are generally stronger and they have a natural role to protect women, and the act of protecting is viewed as attractive. So it makes sense for that to be extended to modern life, for the guy to kind of 'protect' a woman by helping her perform some tasks. A side-effect might be that women can't really help anyone they don't know well without awkwardness, but maybe the benefits outweigh that minor cost.
There are two main problems I have with it though. One only applies for a certain mindset of the guy. Usually this occurs in older people, but there are exceptions. People who are used to women really being helpless. As someone wrote in this thread earlier, they think of women like precious objects. They assume that women will expect this chivalry and be attracted to it, so they use it to try to manipulate them. Behind the mindset lurks a belief that women are on some level inferior.
If someone doesn't have this mindset, if they know that women are capable of doing the thing themselves and that the woman doesn't expect it of them, I have no problem with it. I even feel flattery in response to it sometimes.
My other problem with it, even when someone does have the mindset I just described, is that in public other people will judge. If there's a crowd, at least a few of them will have the formerly described mindset and will judge me to be a helpless female. Whenever someone opens a door for me in public, I get a kind of embarrassed feeling. I'm not sure where that comes from, it just happens.
In the specific case of doors, I also have a minor personal almost OCDish problem where it just feels uncomfortable for me to walk through a door without touching it. I'm so used to opening doors myself that the rare times someone does it for me it just feels wrong, so combined with what I've said above I always get an (unjustified) moment of annoyance (which I never voice), but I'm probably the only one who has that problem.
The other night I held a door open for a guy who was carrying a small box, he said thanks, and I felt good about myself. Same thing for a girl I held a door for once who was holding a pet carrier out of the grooming center. I really don't think people read gender into small acts of courtesy, in fact I think men find it refreshing for a woman to step up and do nice things for them. And by god, that's as it should be, because it's 2011 now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianeva
No offense, but I think that's more of a personal hang-up you have, rather than the social culture around us. Even if someone does scoff or make a stink about it, who cares? They're just a sexist asshole. It's their loss, not yours, so just move on. Even if cultural obstacles do exist, which in this case I don't think they do anymore, is don't let any notion like that control you and inhibit you. That just perpetuates out-dated behavior.Quote:
For example, on a train once I was sitting next to a girl and did about 3 nice things for her in a row, just because I felt the genuine need to help another human. I told her about the free water in a certain car, I helped her find something, and I rummaged through my suitcase to find my headphones just so that I could offer them to her (because she didn't have the cash to buy the $4 ones they were selling and wanted to watch the movie). If a guy had done this, it would be completely acceptable and nice, and she might develop an attraction to him. But I started to feel extremely awkward and embarrassed. I even started worrying that she might think I'm a lesbian and attracted to her. Maybe it wouldn't have seemed so strange if we had been talking and became friendly, but we hadn't really been talking at all.
I'm not trying to imply anything mean, but I would be willingly to bet you're the only one who felt awkward. People tend to feel like everyone is judging them when in reality they're the only ones thinking anything negative about themselves.
Besides, even if it just so happened you got, unfortunately, stuck on the car with all the judgmental jerks, why does that matter? Just do what you want! If you wanted to help the girl, just do it. You're being nice just because you want to, and if they have a problem, then that's their problem, not yours.
There's a difference between doing what you want when you're, say, singing loudly in a crowded place and forcing people to listen to it...
And say, helping someone out even though the people around you or that person may feel somehow offended or put off by it. Just do it anyway. It's your life and you can do whatever you want.
----
Interestingly enough, and much to everyone's dismay, I'm sure; this reminds me of this My Little Pony show that is featured on my avatar over there.
When I started watching it, I was incredibly embarrassed about the fact that I liked it. I'm a 17 year old guy! I look like I'm 25, and here I am watching My Little Pony.
Eventually, though, as I realized just how good it was, and just how much I do like it, it occurred to me that I wanted to watch it. And I wanted to watch it in front of other people. If they didn't like it, that was too bad, because I think it's hilarious, and incredibly well characterized and written. Now I have a Pony shirt and am perfectly unafraid to unabashedly declare my love for the show to people I've never met, and the ones I have. My family and friends. A lot of them are watching it now too.
If you want to help people, or if you want to watch My Little Pony, or anything else you could possibly do, if you feel you're in the right, then stand up and defend it. Whether you're female or male or any other variance in your person, just except what you are and who you are. If they don't, realize that you do, and what you think of yourself matters miles more than what they think of you.
How may mL do you use? I always use about 3 eyedrops and they stay asleep through the entire thing. And even after when I'm leaving... maybe i should use less...Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
:eh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianeva
Girls don't slam doors in my face lol.
It's really too bad something like holding the door open for someone has to turn into a complicated social issue.
My post disappeared.... wtf? Did I post it somewhere else again? FUUUUUUCK
Fuck. Can't find it. Stupid DV.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/13...d4756f95c9.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by tommo
I guess the overwhelming opinion is that my post was completely bat-shit crazy, so as usual my intuition about what people are thinking is completely wrong.
No - not batshit crazy.
I actually was thinking about your post today as I was driving around town. I think it comes down to this..
As you say, you're a little OCD. I think that causes you to sometimes think a lot deeper into things than most people do. Your explanations of things like this often go into great detail that otherwise we'd never get into, and I find that refreshing, and it's always a point we can step off from to create more dialogue.
Also I wouldn't say your intuition about what people were thinking is completely wrong, but I'd say it probably reflects your own anxieties more than an objective reality. I don't mean that in bad way, I hope you don't take it that way.
No I don't take it in a bad way. I don't know where I got the idea that people think this way, it just seems like they do. It will be hard to convince myself otherwise.
chivalry = the nice guy syndrom.
but w/e i'd date lancelot.
I've been called "lance - a lot" from time to time....
You have a cyst problem?
gfhzehQuote:
A Lance is a pole weapon or spear designed to be used by a mountedwarriorhot woman