It's an interesting subject and there are many techniques and many experiences. Would be nice to have them all in one place, along with maybe some tutorials.
[moved to Lounge so we can brainstorm this idea. -OpheliaBlue]
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It's an interesting subject and there are many techniques and many experiences. Would be nice to have them all in one place, along with maybe some tutorials.
[moved to Lounge so we can brainstorm this idea. -OpheliaBlue]
I second this opinion, because meditation is such a broad and encompassing subject that can be highly individualistic!
I totally agree with all that is said in and by this thread so far. And this is my vote for Bobbelhats great idea!
I didnt think of this the first time I saw this threadd. But for everyone who also would like a sub-forum for Meditation. Please make you self known here with a little post to just say something or say that you agree to this idea. So this thread just doesnt vanish among all other daily new threads. Nothing will probably happen if there is only a handfull of people who want this. So make your vote here too, or post something to encourage the making of a new sub-forum for Meditation.
:meditate:
It's a good idea. There are different types of meditation and it's a great topic. :)
Great idea, definitely agree.
I agree. Meditation and lucid dreaming share many similiarities. I believe at advanced levels they're the same experience.
^^ What he said.
Given that so much of what we do to become lucid practically is meditation, that does seem a good idea, Bobblehat.
I'm not sure, at the very least it should be given a trial run to see if there's sufficient interest.
Keep in mind that this is a Lucid Dreaming forum, so the main ontopic forums are for dreaming and sleep. However I think it would be best suited as a subforum like you also mentioned.
Actually, I think it would be redundant. Take a look at the description for the Inner Sanctum.
"meditation, auras, chakras, telepathy, psi, energy/Qi, ESP, remote viewing, precognition, new age spirituality, parapsychology and spiritual encounters."
Sure, you can make a meditation subforum. But meditation discussions can quickly include all of the above. Which means we would have two subforums doing sorta the same sort of thing.
Oh derp I forgot about Inner Sanctum. And I don't really know enough about meditation to make a decision as to whether or not meditation belongs in there or on its own. I mean, I thought it was just like brain yoga, and not a supernatural thing.
Perhaps we could take it out of inner sanctum and make it a subforum right next to it. :)
One doesn't have to be religious/spiritual to do meditation or believe in any phenomena. It is the odd word from the list here, pretty much the only thing proven to exist and that anybody can do right away (compared to TK, ESP). Some people may shy away from the inner sanctum subforum but may be more willing to read and learn about meditation if it isn't in the same place as the more exotic topics.Quote:
meditation, auras, chakras, telepathy, psi, energy/Qi, ESP, remote viewing, precognition, new age spirituality, parapsychology and spiritual encounters."
That sounds pretty good to me NyxCC. That's totally doable if y'all don't think inner sanctum stuff would end up bleeding into a meditation subforum a lot.
I would like this forum/sub forum to exist!
I agree with Nyx--meditation does seem slightly out of place in the above list. Also, many members seem interested in meditation but are not sure how to do it. I think that for the most part people wanting to meditate will be coming from on-topic (though I could be wrong about that), so that would theoretically keep discussions of paranormal subjects low or non-existent.
If this forum comes to life, it's probably important to distinguish 3-4 terms that appear to be sometimes thrown around together like they are the same thing, and that end up rambling this bridge between lucid dreaming and meditation:
- (Lucid) Awareness/self-awareness: the self-monitoring state that, in the context of a dream, we call "being lucid".
- Mindfulness: in which ADA is based-upon, defines "being aware of the moment".
- (Mindfulness) meditation: practice of mindfulness in the structured/"formal" context of meditation (many people practice mindfulness meditation to improve their mindfulness)
- Meditation: practice/induction of a state of mind.
There is room for misconceptions which can end up making the sub-forum of meditation all about self-awareness and mindfulness (aka, related to lucid dreaming), which would make it pretty redundant since there's so much talk about those concepts in lucid dreaming discussion/attaining lucidity.
Good call Zoth.
We survived the SP/REM Atonia poop-a-nanny so this should be a cake walk :chuckle:
Well, you can make your not-so-spiritual meditation subforum. But you can never actually separate the world of meditation from spirituality. Just saying, those topics will eventually make their way into the meditation forum. After all, a very popular form of meditation is chakra based meditation. Its all over youtube.
Also, I think the inner sanctum needs to be revised. Its not very clear what its all about.
I guess the same could be said about lucid dreaming in general, how to separate the scientific version of LDing from the spiritual version(s)??Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
And I 100% agree with what you said about Inner Sanctum, juoara. Besides general revision, I'm not really sure why it's in ED, while at the same time having a BD in the ontopics. I wasn't around when that got voted on. So I'm going to go ahead and move this thread into the Lounge. I don't know how many members view meta vs Lounge, but it seems like we'd get even more input about this decision here.
From what I remember, what happened was members were making spiritual related threads in the BD section. Even though those threads had nothing to do with dreaming. People didnt want to use the R/S forum because that place is just hell. So the compromise was the inner sanctum.
Hmm. Thanks for the history there juroara. That helps me see the real issue:
You know, I appreciate what they did there for a compromise. But is siphoning this way and that always the best solution, even if as a compromise? To me it seems like a ton of forums and subforums have been created just to appease a group of folks here and there. Don't get me wrong, I'd personally still like to see Meditation break away from Inner Sanctum. But it doesn't do anyone any good if we do it just because folks don't want to post in one subforum vs the other, simply because one is "just hell."
Maybe it's time to vote and revise all the forums. Ideas?
Perhaps some spiritual stuff will leak into meditation, but it will still be more practical than speaking about ghosts or telepathy. Don't see anything against chakra meditation being included there, after all it's a form of meditation. If one wants to use the point above the eyes (aka third eye chakra) as a focus point in meditation or visualize it, this doesn't necessarily mean it's becoming a supernatural topic. Lots of people use chakra points for wilding or OBE theory and techs for wilding even if they don't believe in them and we don't move it to Beyond dreaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
For me it is much easier to go to a separate forum to post or read about meditation rather that go sifting through all sorts of topics in IS. For example, I wanted to create a post a while ago about "meditation and your brain", was wondering where to put it and ended up in the Science subforum, which on that occasion fit much more than IS as I was citing from scientific papers and studies.
Anyways, good idea from Ophie to move this to lounge to get more feedback from other members about creating this subforum and possibly some other forum rearrangement.
I may be volunteering for this, but I would love to see a stickied "Meditation 101" post where we cover myths, misconceptions, and how to get started with a list of online resources as well as finding local stuff.
Yes. Meditation as a sub-forum please.
Seems like enough interest in this to start one. I'll make it after work.
Yeeeeeeeessssssssssssss!!!!!
Lol.
So wait, where do you guys want it? It could be a subforum of Beyond Dreaming, but there again it could end up being lumped into all things mystical or supernatural. Unless we make the BD description more general. Could reword it..
Maybe in inner sanctum or right before or after it? Or BD as many of the topics there incorporate meditation? Sorry, that's not helping is it?
I think it would be a good sub forum in BD. I mean, meditation is beyond dreaming.....I kind of like the idea of rewording BD. JMI
not bd :laughhard:
Attaining Lucidity.
^^ Seems appropriate!
Ok will do. Sorry to delay it again, I'm still road tripping across the Texas countryside visiting family.
So prepare your lotus positions folks! Meditation subforum is coming to a forum near you!!
Naw, that's painful ;_; But meditation subforum, yay, thank you!~Quote:
Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue
Ok but the side-tracks of Meditation are much more than just attaining lucidity. I suspect it might cause debate some time in the future.
Maybe I am overthinking but generally "Sleep and Health" seems more appropiate since this topic is not Strictly related to Lucid Dreaming alone.
I'm not a meditating person, so you guys need to decide where you want it.
It might not fit anywhere perfectly, so think about it. I don't want to delay this any longer than I already promised to not to lol. But yeah, I'll give it 24 hours, then decide. The most popular fits are:
- Attaining Lucidity
- Beyond Dreaming (contingent upon rewording BD's forum description)
- Sleep and Health
- Lucid Aids (another one I thought of)
- Inner Sanctum (which I believe would cause the most confusion)
...Of course, meditation is also not Strictly related to sleep or health, either.Quote:
Maybe I am overthinking but generally "Sleep and Health" seems more appropiate since this topic is not Strictly related to Lucid Dreaming alone.
I have a feeling -- okay, a hope -- that if meditation is presented as a common tool for attaining lucidity, that the threads and discussion will head in that direction. Yes, there will be digressions, just like there are everywhere else, but it shouldn't be too difficult to imagine plenty of threads built around the context of meditation as a tool for lucidity. And yes, meditation certainly has uses beyond helping with lucid dreaming, but so do a whole lot of other things we do here.
Attaining lucidity or Lucid Aids still seem like good homes to me.
My choices...
1st choice: Sleep and Health
2nd choice: Beyond Dreaming
3rd choice: Attaining Lucidity
4th choice: Lucid Aids
Just a thought for the future...could this be like one of the DVA courses (e.g., Dream Yoga?). Just a thought...
Here's my list right now
1st choise: Attaining Lucidity (i think it's perfect)
2nd choise: Sleep and health
3rd choise: Beyond Dreaming
That's it.
To be honest, I think it deserves it's own section. Since Meditation is so intimately connected to Lucid dreaming in so many different ways. But that would be a bit too much to start with don't you think?
i'm curious to see how this will turn out.
I agree with this, because meditation is really the way to a lucid mind. So when the mind is lucid in waken life, that will of course play it's part in ones dreams aswell.Quote:
1st choise: Attaining Lucidity (i think it's perfect)
To be really honest, I think that meditation deserve it's own section too. But if you put it in Attaining Lucidity, that might inspire more people here to start meditate, so that cant be bad either. Attaining Lucidity is probably not the first place I would guess that the meditation section was under, but hopfully people will have patience to find it soon enough anyway.:)
hello everyone
I don't believe, it is true only for the styles which lean on the mental energy of the heart.Quote:
Juroara
But you can never actually separate the world of meditation from spirituality.
According to the Chinese medicine, everything is bound :
Qi, energy which results from the food and from the air,
is bound to the organ by the meridian and to its corresponding mental energy.
for example, by improving your kindness and your natural generosity, you will strengthen your spirituality,
(the mental energy of the heart), what will have the effect of strengthening Qi, what he, in his turn,
will strengthen more the spiritual strength. The monks of East work on Qi
to develop their spirituality: they transform the jing (the sexual energy) into Qi,
then Qi in Shen (the spirituality whose head office is the heart).
The principle is just but it is never applied concretely in the techniques of meditation.
"The meditation follows the concentration ", all the styles of meditation are based on this principle.
For example, you concentrate all your attention on a flower, an image or a symbol, a sound;
the state of meditation will settle down naturally by a state different from the consciousness.
A flower or the howling of a waterfall has nothing spiritual, the contemplative technique either.
This style results from Tantra-Yoga, awakening of the kundalini (the magic snake).Quote:
After all, a very popular form of meditation is chakra based meditation.
Its all over youtube.
To the Yoga, a follower does not work on chakras before having the master's degree
of the body and the spirit; my coach had no this level thus we did not even hint at it.
It is enough to make a try : after one hour sat right in the sun, if you do not arrive
to think of something else than in a fresh beer, continue to work the postures and the breath.
:lol:
I know that it is often necessary question to cleanse chakras on Web,
nevertheless, to the Yoga, it is disadvised to concentrate over the height of the heart,
unless being a specialist. Indeed, the energy accumulates where the spirit anchors its attention.
The concentration on ajna-chakra (the third eye) and especially the chakra at the top of the head
cause terrible migraines; the tensions go back up in the head.
I knew women on a forum who played the flute in the " magic snake ".
They became nymphomaniacs because they awakened the kundalini
by concentrating on the first one chakra who is bound to the sexuality.
[they did not know how to guide the heat of the lower abdomen to spread it in meridians
as it is the custom for "the internal fire" of the taoist meditation]
I had tried the chakra of the heart, the energy accumulated by causing a cardiac acceleration there.
Fortunately I knew how to remedy it, contrary to the gurus from YouTube.
On the other hand, it is necessary to matter at least five years of daily practice
before having a lucid dream in meditation, while with your techniques,
you harvest the first fruits in three months.
"You can't have the butter and the money of the butter", as we say in France.
http://img1.xooimage.com/files/a/6/0/1812-216cf.gif
Your friends from YouTube imagine themselves the opposite and moreover,
they eye up the dairywoman!
http://img1.xooimage.com/files/2/e/4...08-1--1a77.gif
The time which you will dedicate to the meditation will be lacking for the training for the lucid dreams.
No not at all. Concentration is a mentally challenging task for the mind, so concentration is a limiting way for the mind. All that is called Meditation is just pure observation. So concentration and observation is two very different things.Quote:
"The meditation follows the concentration ", all the styles of meditation are based on this principle.
For example, you need to concentrate when your mind wants to be at other places than the thing you need to concentrate on.
Observation is the way you use when your full attention is gathered togheter. You dont need to concentrate to observe a beautiful sunset do you?
How vivid do you think your dreams becomes if you arn't aware enough in your waken life?Quote:
The time which you will dedicate to the meditation will be lacking for the training for the lucid dreams.
However, lucid dreaming techniques is of course not learned through meditation. But the quality of your dreams definitely are I would say.
Difficult to decide on the section that is the best match, but I'm inclined to go with these:
And Ophie, thanks for taking time to deal with this during this busy time of the year. Wish you and all our members here a fantastic and lucid new year! :fuckyeah:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dthoughts
I agree with Dthoughts: while I think meditation should have it's own forum, attaining lucidity is my first choice, followed by his other suggestions. Thank you for making this happen, Ophelia!
I think that we speak about the same thing :Quote:
DreamyBear
So concentration and observation is two very different things.
your practice of the observation is a work of concentration on all which surrounds you.
Only change the target on which we concentrate, the subject or the support of our concentration.
For me it is simpler to preserve always the same target while for you it is easier to vary.
Let us say that the traditional techniques are more rudimentary than yours,
but they are more sure to prevent the spirit from saving itself by breaking the internal silence.
According to me, the practice of the observation is more subtle and less testing
but the strength of the concentration will be more difficult to maintain durably
while it is exactly it which opens the door to the meditation by creating the click
to fall over to a state different from the consciousness.
My nature is not enough poetic to be moved at the sight of a sunsetQuote:
You dont need to concentrate to observe a beautiful sunset do you?
to the point to be getting carried away in an upper state of the consciousness
following the example of Goethe and romantic German.
I go weak more easily at the knees in front with a beefsteak in my plate.
Unfortunately the concentration becomes depressing in front of an empty plate,
whereas you, you shiver in the night darkness.
:lol:
The approach is different, I slide in a dream state further to a reduction in vigilance of my spirit,Quote:
How vivid do you think your dreams becomes if you arn't aware enough
in your waken life?
a weakening of the concentration, but I remain enough aware to know that I dream.
P.S.
I'm sorry, but I wanted stave Juroara off the bad side of the modern practices of meditation
my choices :
1 - the lounge
2 - translation international tutorials
3 - Wiki
Voler Travaux Pratiques - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dream Flying Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views - Amethyst Star
Articles
4 - Entertainment (music, TV, movies, books)
:oops:
boop done: Meditation
Please let me know if I left anything out in the description or intro.
I am a tad bit concerned about the way you demand supernatural to be off-limits. And anything non-dream related to be off-limits. There's a fine line in both and I do not think that drawing one is helpfull in any way. I am okay with this as a start but I do not feel drawing any lines are necessary. After all, meditation was and still is in essence a spiritual practice. I have met meditation teachers who claim to not even do dreaming but still do meditation. I believe their voice is left out of the conversation by making such (overtly) rigid rules.
If that's the case, then I'd have to bring R&S back into the ontopic section. See what I'm getting at?
Also, don't forget that meditation is included in the description for Inner Sanctum.
No Im sorry but concentration and observation are really two very different things, I cant say that the two are similar enough to be the same, it's not. Observation has nothing to do with varying, it is just about taking it all in at once, and not to exclude anything like with concentration. In concentration, you might focus on a specific area like a laser beam. It's effective, but it is stil excluding things around the focus point. To observe is just to see all there is, what ever it is. Two different ways and goals basically.Quote:
I think that we speak about the same thing :
your practice of the observation is a work of concentration on all which surrounds you.
Only change the target on which we concentrate, the subject or the support of our concentration.
For me it is simpler to preserve always the same target while for you it is easier to vary.
I dont really get this, but my point has nothing to do with being poetic if that was what you tought. My point is that meditation is something anyone can do all the time without concentrating, since concentrating is a mind activity that burns up a lot of energy. But to observe anything wich is what meditation really is. Is our natural way to really look at things without the need to choose what to see. Concentration is used when one need to focus on something, which then exclude other things. Thats my pointQuote:
My nature is not enough poetic to be moved at the sight of a sunset
to the point to be getting carried away in an upper state of the consciousness
following the example of Goethe and romantic German.
I go weak more easily at the knees in front with a beefsteak in my plate.
Unfortunately the concentration becomes depressing in front of an empty plate,
whereas you, you shiver in the night darkness.
However, I feel like we are about to disagree to disagree with each other here, at least I am. But I respect your view of all this, and Im not really interested to try to deepen this potential discussion. So I think I just leave it at this. Feel free to question anything if you like me to clarify anything I've said so far. :)
I'm not sure where you are coming from but i'm thinking of this scenario:
Makes thread: Hey I find that activating my third eye chakra has really helped tremendously in gaining lucid dreams.
LDer: Get ur spiritual BS out of here. (moved to r/s)
^If it's a valid method it works. The line between supernatural and natural is a matter of perspective. I would like for us to avoid these arguments in the future. I think my concerns will be abolished if we all just simply keep an open mind. As long as any 'spiritual' buzzwords aren't immediately considered off-limits and instantly moved to religion i'm fine. :)
Aummmmm!! :D
Fair enough Dthoughts, but that would mean undoing years of segregating the religion from the science on this forum. We keep spiritual threads in Extended Discussion in the off topic section, and for good reason.
But if Meditation really has too much gray area, then perhaps it's best suited for Extended Discussion afterall. Y'all really need to sort this out, because I'm just following you guys' leads here.
Since it has a home now, wouldn't it be best to wait and see what happens?Quote:
Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue
Yes, okay :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous