Codename N2D2: NovaDreamer 2 incoming.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Can anyone comment on whether any effectiveness studies were done (even anecdotally) for particular classification of user: someone who does a lot of serious of daytime practice, but is still in the beginning and doesn't get lucid enough (where I am): my goal is multiple LDs per night, and where I am is on average once per 8-9 days or so. Sageous I noticed you said it only worked for you a couple of times over the course of a year, but that you wanted to stop doing daytime practice. Are there any studies on effectiveness given that very specific target category? I.e., a serious LD practitioner (not Joe Random Public) putting in the daytime work, but not already an "expert"?

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^^ My first, reactionary, answer to that was a resounding "Hell no," even though in truth I could be wrong -- LaBerge tends to play his cards close to the vest. From what I understand, the testing LaBerge currently does of the N2d2 is done exclusively at his dreamcamps, which are generally (but never exclusively) attended by people who have no idea what daytime work is, so a study pool of experienced LD'ers is very thin. Plus, given that the "study" amounts to one or two uses of the N2D2 by a couple of customers, even if LaBerge had experienced LD'ers in attendance, there wouldn't be enough time to gather any real information... not to mention that, from what I remember, those few experienced LD'ers in attendance at TLI dreamcamps had little to no interest in trying out the N2D2.

But now, if LaBerge gets a lot of applications for beta-testers, then bites his lip and actually sends a bunch out, he might be able to get some real data to be able to say more decisively how the N2D2 might effect the dreams of someone already doing substantial day work.

I for one think N2D2 will likely help improve frequency, as long as it is comfortable enough to sleep in, and its signalling is flexible enough to still work after the placebo effect wears off. Plus, experienced LD'ers who do regular daytime work will probably receive the greatest benefits from the N2D2, because this machine potentially is an excellent aid to achieving lucidity, but not a magic pill that replaces all the fundamentals... not good news for novices looking for an easy way out, but good news for folks, like you, looking for something that might help you improve from a reasonably successful LD'ing frequency to something closer to LD's on demand.

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But now, if LaBerge gets a lot of applications for beta-testers, then bites his lip and actually sends a bunch out, he might be able to get some real data to be able to say more decisively how the N2D2 might effect the dreams of someone already doing substantial day work.

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Couldn't help but picture LaBerge like this xD

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/46612928.jpg

(I hope he's not reading this thread :P)

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Originally Posted by Zoth

(I hope he's not reading this thread :P)

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I hope he is, personally. I also think he would smile broadly at your post!

Hi Archvenom - thought I'd try and get back to you - if you have any more questions but sure to let me know!

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Do you have a rough idea of your REM cycles and setup your alert times around this? How many times a night does the cue go off? Do you tend to activate after a WBTB or just after x hrs of sleep? Sorry for all the questions I'm just very interested.

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Ok - when I first thought about doing this I wondered if there was much point trying just a countdowner timer to hit a REM period. I hadn't been keeping an eye on LD'ing when the Remee was released but by most accounts this got a bad press as being pretty ineffective and I think one of the reasons used to explain this was because it didn't use any REM detection technology (to be fair if you are going to name your device using the term REMee its pretty misleading if it DOESN'T have rem detection! :D). So I wondered if there was any point.....so I went looking for some research.


And acting as a good counterbalance to the Remee argument was the stuff coming from the DIELD guys using alarm clocks

- this is an excellent and pretty recent thread on DV's that I used so at the time - so thanks to all the people who started and contributed to it - http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...-lucidity.html :goodjob2: I think this shows what a useful and valuable resource DV's is, as it is this information that helped me to think it was worthwhile trying this technique in the way I do.

Basically these DIELD'ers WERE using countdown alarm clocks to hit an REM period and wake themselves up after which they could DIELD - and reporting some pretty successful results without any REM detection required (at the time I figured if I couldn't get a signal incorporated into a dream with the vibrating Invisible clock I figured I could still use it to DIELD).

Some of them recommended repeat timers going off after 15-30mins, I tried 21mins and it worked so I've stuck with that. Its a totally random number but it seems to hit REM periods often enough for me to continue with it (and it SOUNDS precise which gives me a psychological boost :cheeky:) - any shorter and I'd get woken up after I set it before returning to sleep (there is no delay on the Invisible Clock II I use for the repeat countdown mode).

I do a very brief wbtb - I don't actually get out of bed I just wake up (I use the same Invisible Clock on a vibrating alarm to wake me up) after 5 hours. I chose 5 hours because this gives me enough uninterupted sleep to go to work on the next day but enough sleep left to maybe get 5-8 vibes in to try and hit an REM period (on a typical night, I'd try to aim for bed at 11.00, wbtb at 4.00am, set the clock for 21min intervals and get up at 6.30). I only stay awake for maybe 3-5mins doing a sort of MILD around the vibe signal then set the clock and return to sleep. If its a weekend I might stay awake longer to try and 'psych' myself up more to do some WILDing/DEILDing as well which complements well with the vibes going off. So the mental parts to lucid dreaming certainly complement what I'm trying to do.

I found just setting the vibe to go off at the start of the night (without a wbtb) didn't work at all. The highest likelyhood of a vibe getting incorporated into a dream is around 1 hour after I return to sleep - my feeling is that this is as much about habituation/desensitization to the signal as the timing. In otherwords after a few times of the signal going off my sleeping body/brain starts to expect and tune out the signal (although I have still have the signal incorporated 2 hours after a wbtb it seems more common 1 hour after). I think some of the DIELD'ers mention a similar thing - though obviously they can set their alarm clocks at a higher threshold because they are aiming to wake up.

Hope this is helpful! I should say as well that this is early days with the device but I'll keep posting results in my workbook if you are interested - cheers and happy weekend everyone! :cheers:

Where can I apply for betatesting?

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Originally Posted by Nfri

Where can I apply for betatesting?

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Read the first post :P

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Details on qualifying criteria for beta-testing will be forthcoming in the near future.

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Hi FryingMan - I would agree with what Sageous said

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I for one think N2D2 will likely help improve frequency, as long as it is comfortable enough to sleep in, and its signalling is flexible enough to still work after the placebo effect wears off. Plus, experienced LD'ers who do regular daytime work will probably receive the greatest benefits from the N2D2, because this machine potentially is an excellent aid to achieving lucidity, but not a magic pill that replaces all the fundamentals... not good news for novices looking for an easy way out, but good news for folks, like you, looking for something that might help you improve from a reasonably successful LD'ing frequency to something closer to LD's on demand.

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- ps Sageous - this really made me laugh because it sounds so true!

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From what I understand, the testing LaBerge currently does of the N2d2 is done exclusively at his dreamcamps, which are generally (but never exclusively) attended by people who have no idea what daytime work is,

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:chuckle:

FryingMan the only study I can think of that comes close I think to answering your question was done by.....dah dah.....LaBerge published in 1988. 49 people had up to 8 wkly sessions including use with the Dreamlight, to be a participant you had to have had a lucid dream. The data LaBerge published was as follows -

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baseline lucid dreaming rate was 3.7%.....in the condition the Dreamlight was used without mental preparation with MILD the rate went up to 5.5%. Using MILD without the Dreamlight produced a rate of 13%, and the combination of MILD with the Dreamlight resulted in the highest rate of 20%.

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So as Sageous says it is likely the device would improve the frequency of LD'ing - especially those who put in the mental effort you were talking about FryingMan. It went up from 5.5% without effort with the dreamlight (small increase from the baserate lucidity) to 20% with effort - a pretty significant increase in this study. Hope this helps!!! Ps some of these findings are on the excellent link Zoth posted earlier.

Archvenom - thought you'd be interested about the incorporation of the vibration into a dream - as this happened last night.....I set my vibrating clock on my wrist to go after 5 hrs for the wbtb as planned. This is set to a strength (2) and duration (20 secs) to wake me up (normally I use a 5sec vibration at strenght 1 when I'm trying to incorporate it into a dream). Anyway I am in a very relaxed dream in a backstage actors room talking to my cousin who I haven't seen in years and having a very detailed (and accurate) catch up about past times and I am really enjoying seeing her again when VIMMMMMMMMMMM I feel the vibrating clock vibrating and hear it also - its LOUD and in the dream I'm scrambling to find it as it keeps going off and I am worried my cousin will hear and wonder what it is and because its the vibration I am very aware I need to do a reality check - and then its still going and I wake up in my dark bedroom completely disorientated for a second searching for the clock on my ankle (its normal location) before realising its on my wrist and turning it off. This is the first time I've hit an REM period at my wbtb time, I wondered if this might happen at some point through luck and last night it did. Obviously I didn't have time to become lucid - in the dream though I was completely aware this was the invisible clock vibrating and that I had to do a R/C (after quietening it) - so both the incorporation of the signal into the dream from the real world (the vibration) and my conditioning to it (do a R/C) were spot on. It was just that because it was the wbtb alarm it was too strong (strength 2) and too long (20 secs) that it woke me up (as its meant to do for the wbtb). Thought you might be interested - I was pretty happy with the incorporation - its a feeling that you've sent yourself a message from the waking world into your dream world and the message is coming through loud and clear - do a R/C, the only poignant thing was that I really enjoyed the catchup I was having with my cousin in the dream so it was a little sad to realise it was the stuff of dreams ;)

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Originally Posted by Tlaloc

Archvenom - thought you'd be interested about the incorporation of the vibration into a dream - as this happened last night.....I set my vibrating clock on my wrist to go after 5 hrs for the wbtb as planned. This is set to a strength (2) and duration (20 secs) to wake me up (normally I use a 5sec vibration at strenght 1 when I'm trying to incorporate it into a dream). Anyway I am in a very relaxed dream in a backstage actors room talking to my cousin who I haven't seen in years and having a very detailed (and accurate) catch up about past times and I am really enjoying seeing her again when VIMMMMMMMMMMM I feel the vibrating clock vibrating and hear it also - its LOUD and in the dream I'm scrambling to find it as it keeps going off and I am worried my cousin will hear and wonder what it is and because its the vibration I am very aware I need to do a reality check - and then its still going and I wake up in my dark bedroom completely disorientated for a second searching for the clock on my ankle (its normal location) before realising its on my wrist and turning it off. This is the first time I've hit an REM period at my wbtb time, I wondered if this might happen at some point through luck and last night it did. Obviously I didn't have time to become lucid - in the dream though I was completely aware this was the invisible clock vibrating and that I had to do a R/C (after quietening it) - so both the incorporation of the signal into the dream from the real world (the vibration) and my conditioning to it (do a R/C) were spot on. It was just that because it was the wbtb alarm it was too strong (strength 2) and too long (20 secs) that it woke me up (as its meant to do for the wbtb). Thought you might be interested - I was pretty happy with the incorporation - its a feeling that you've sent yourself a message from the waking world into your dream world and the message is coming through loud and clear - do a R/C, the only poignant thing was that I really enjoyed the catchup I was having with my cousin in the dream so it was a little sad to realise it was the stuff of dreams ;)

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Thanks for your replies Tlaloc. Pretty cool how clearly your WBTB alarm came through into your dream, it's good to read experiences from a fellow Kiwi.

I'm on the hunt for an android alarm that has similar functionality as your invisible clock II e.g. lets me set multiple vibrating alarms, adjust the length of time the alarm goes off for without me having to hit a snooze, ability to adjust the strength of the vibration and perhaps the added feature to create my own custom vibration pattern. I plan to strap the phone to my leg to minimise the risk of waking the wife during the night! :P

I'm hopeful that this is better than other attempts at LDIDs... There are several new methods that can be implemented which I have experimented with.

I've personally been experimenting with all sorts of sensors to successfully detect REM stages. The most successful I've had are using proximity sensors sown into a sleep mask. The algorithm is a little iffy, but adding a PIR motion detector over the bed to detect when I turn helps cancel some false positives. It's not a very elegant solution since most of this is hard-wired from the sleep mask to a Raspberry Pi.

Also, there are several different (<$100) EEG (brainwave) devices however the algorithms on those are also tricky... Perhaps they have the time and resources to develop an EEG sensor and algorithm that can pick out the deep sleep stages from all the noise.

Hopefully they have integrated the latest tech and algorithms into a neat, comfortable package without the wires. Something I find that helps immensely in my own experiments are recorded voice message REMINDERS. That function would make it well worth the price! I have my fingers crossed!

Tick tock, almost 1.5 years later, it's still "REAL SOON NOW!", after an apparently successful showing in the 2015 Hawaii retreat (they said the same thing in 2014!). Not even an update published, which is also scheduled for "real soon now."

Agree. The lack of meaningful updates have been disappointing to say the least.

I had a dream this morning in which I sat down at a Kalani cafeteria table with LaBerge, and asked him what is going on with his N2D2. He at first tried to make a joke, then some excuses, and finally just got annoyed and left the table. Just like real life.

I blame that dream on day residue caused by this thread, BTW....