Datura and the Dream

For awile Datura has been tantalising me with its magnificent flowers.

Over the year, I have read a couple of people noting it induced LD's. Im planning on doing some self experimentation to see what kind of effects it has on the dream state.

I am fully aware of the dangers of atropine and scopolamine and how varied they are within the plant. I will be making a homogenised mix of plant matter and starting with very low amounts. Waiting two weeks between re-dosing. I dont wont to be in a state of delirium for 2 days :shock: This is going to be a futre project, after uni mid-semester exams and once my plants put some growth back on (bug infestation :( )

Just wanting some input from the community, especially for those who may have tried it.

I'll give you 1 tip, it can kill so PLEASE look up dosages on the net

also, i hear its VERY unpleasant so...I'm not sure if you really wanna do it

anyways, let us know what happens, im curious to know what it does, if anything

I'm not sure if you knew this but in Haiti they drug people up with puffer-fish venom and then intoxicate them with datura, and they're pretty much zombies so, if you start moaning and groaning and shuffle as you walk, gimme a call ill be sure to exterminate you

:D j/k

There are other drugs that help to induce lucid dreams such as Mugwort and Calea. If this drug is only sometimes noted for inducing LDs, don't do it for that purpose alone. There are other drugs.

Also, you can just go ahead and get some Galantamine and Choline, which is a very good LD shot.

If it's life risky, don't ever do something like that. It's not worth it for a little high and maybe some LDs. Research wouldn't be very helpful since nobody would really want to do that both because of the risk and the other, better ways of getting LDs.

If you insist on doing it, do as guerilla said and look up dosages, then go lower than what they say you should take. Always safe is better than sorry, and it would be sad if you ended up dieing or getting incapacitated because of a stupid high.

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I am fully aware of the dangers of atropine and scopolamine

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:)

Im not looking for a high, what im looking for is a way to induce the quote "dream like state" of datura into the dream world. If i wanted a hi I would smoke the pot :P

I dont think Datura/brug is something that needs to been yelled and screamed about, more, given great respect. I never intend of putting my self into the 'normal' delusion state that it brings, but rather the threshold levels that effect the subconsciousness.

Looking into Galantamine and Choline now.

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Originally Posted by Serpent

:)

Im not looking for a high, what im looking for is a way to induce the quote "dream like state" of datura into the dream world. If i wanted a hi I would smoke the pot :P

I dont think Datura/brug is something that needs to been yelled and screamed about, more, given great respect. I never intend of putting my self into the 'normal' delusion state that it brings, but rather the threshold levels that effect the subconsciousness.

Looking into Galantamine and Choline now.

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try erowid.org, they have some info about datura and other various psychoactives

like i said before, u turn into a zombie let me know! :lol:

Ive flicked through erowids datrua vaults quite alot. Most of them just seem like idoits wanting to get fucked up.

Im looking for information specifically on low dosages and the effects on dream. I may repost this on some other etho forums :P Would like some personal accounts.

I have this beautiful datura flower in my garden (and during winter time in my living room) and I found out that she likes me and even (in a way) tried to sort of "seduce" me. But I have never really started more than a "small flirt" with her.

But... I have tried a bit of another solanaceae plant: mandrake (as root). It's also dangerous but maybe not as much as datura (but don't take my word for it -- never try anything on yourself unless you know exactly what you are doing!).

What can I tell you? Last time I tried mandrake I had almost no effects in waking life. But after a few hours of sleep I woke up, tried to WILD and felt vibrations almost instantly in a very strong manner. It was like my whole head was vibrating, starting on its skin from back to front.

Then I found myself in a dreamscene (WILD worked) but unfortunately a few moments later my alarm clock woke me up.

I don't know how this stuff works. For a long time I stayed away from anticholinergics since I made a lot of experiments with the exact "antidote" (galantamine). Maybe it's because the body notices that acetylcholine is no longer effective because of the antagonist and produces large amounts of it to counteract and when the ACh antagonist starts to lose its effect, than it is overwhelming (at least this is a theory of author James Kent in his upcoming book "Psychedelic Information Theory").

And I had SOOOO hoped no one would ever mention this dangerious flower's name when earlier I spoke of " The Flower who's name shall not be mentioned".

I find this plant truely amazing and I fearfully respect her. And that is the first plant I've ever called "her" cuz in my Dream the night following her ingestion I met her spirit; An old witchlady in a robe with a bipolar, tricky character. I posted my Datura Dream quite a while back on this forum in my DJ-topic I have long neglected here. Maybe try searching for "SKA's Dreams" if you're interrested.

The reason I had hoped this flower's name would never be mentioned is, because you and I know just HOW dangerious this plant's effects are both physically and psychologically, (OH BOY FOR YOUR SAKE I HOPE YOU INDEED ARE AWARE OF THE TRUE NATURE AND HEALTH RISKS OF THIS PLANT!!! o_õ) but many naïve kids seeking to get high on easily available sources probably do not realise how dangerious this plant is and how undesirable and dangerious it's mental effects are. Not to mention it is fatally toxic. And if they find out and read up a bit on the plant they'll soon find out that the most insane, intense mystical experiences come from a plant that grows in their neighbors garden or at the local ornamental garden or park this may lead to some seriously dangerious situations. It's best if this plant remains totally unknown to the masses so that only TRUELY interrested people know about it; People who, in general, I deem alot more responsible, serious and knowledgable than the average kid in search of a high.

This is the reason I mentioned this Flower before, as a great Dream Potentiator, but deliberately never mentioned it's name and encouraged DV members who recognised and knew what flower I spoke of to do the same.

YES Datura can be a very powerfull allie for it will defenitely induce Bizare, Vivid Dreams, most likely in the nightmare range. Datura's spirit wasn't nice to me and I can't recall anyone to who she hasn\'t been brutal; She was a frightfull experience. I have had 1 daytime experience with a MINUTE piece of this flower in tea form and that brought on a Mystical sensation of extreme Darkness, Dispair, anticipation and feeling generally "unsafe", exposed and vurnerable followed by my nighttime experiences (2ce) which were sheer terror( allthough enjoyable terror A.K.A. Spiritual nightmares.)
And take that from someone who, allthough open to South american, native mythology, is rather sceptic and YET calls this plant a powerfull spirit to be fearfully respected.
This plant was one of the plants that lead me from BELIEVING there is "more" to KNOWING there is "more".


Nevertheless it still is a very interresting Dream potentiator worthy of research, but since we just blew this thing wide open: Let's explicitly teach about the dangers of this plant and why not to try to be a smartass/roughneck and try to take a "trip" with this plant. Don't FUCK with Datura; once Datura is in you, Datura will do all the fucking with the naïve user at the receiving end. And She isn't very Romantic I can testify. If need be I'll link you guys up with a WHOLE bunch of good reasons why to NEVER EVER ingest it in doses enough to "Trip" on.
If you are so dumb as to try it anyway: it's not a trip, but a Delirium; people wake up with their house trashed, VCR tapes in the fridge, Toiletpaperrolls in drawers, they themselves naked, scratched/brused and with no recollection of how all that happened. These are things that REALLY happened to peeps on Datura. One guy woke up naked, covered in his own feaces, covered in scratches and blood in the back of a truck 3 HOURS driving from his house with no recollection of how he got there.


Well I guess I got my message across.


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I have this Dread/Beauty-full flower growing in this very room for her magical presence and Dreaming experiments. Knowing the minimum dose of at least 1 whole flower to induce the dreadfull, to-be-avoided Datura Delirium I allways take REDICULOUS precaution and my Datura dose for Dreaming purposes thusfar had been about a 1 by 1 inch piece of flower in my tea just before bedtime. Anyone who is genuinely interrested in Datura for Dreaming purposes is STRONGLY advised to keep to the same dosages and level of caution I use; I have done my homework on this plant, it's effects, it's healthrisks and people's dreadfull experiences on this plant.

PS: If anyone is interrested in my Dreadfull, but wonderfull, Mystic Datura nightmare I can post it here.

Wow thank you for wonderful post :)

Looks for your report now*

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Originally Posted by SKA

If need be I'll link you guys up with a WHOLE bunch of good reasons why to NEVER EVER ingest it in doses enough to "Trip" on.


If anyone is interrested in my Dreadfull, but wonderfull, Mystic Datura nightmare I can post it here.

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actually I would be quite interested to see the links and your dream

Allright I will post my Dream soon because it is rather late and I should go to bed soon. I think tonight will be a good night to grab my bag of dried Datura flowers and have another cup of Tea out of a tiny piece of a flower.

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Originally Posted by SKA

Allright I will post my Dream soon because it is rather late and I should go to bed soon. I think tonight will be a good night to grab my bag of dried Datura flowers and have another cup of Tea out of a tiny piece of a flower.

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well, I'll be interested to hear of both experiences, the last and tonight's if anything happens.

From www.erowid.com, here is a really disturbing account of a kid who did datura without any real prior education on it: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=37034

Erowid's Dreadfull experience reports were the links I meant.

Last night I took a little more than 1/4th of a dried Datura flower and a small Datura Leaf and strained a Tea from. I drank it right before bedtime. I felt the effect take hold of me stronger and faster than I thought it would. The same darkness and uneasyness came over me, but this time I wasn't too worried. Like the witches call their Datura ointment the Flying Ointment as it brings the sensation of flying/floating which I have experienced for myself.

My dreams were not well remembered, perhaps due to my mom vacuümcleaning my Atelier room 1 floor below. I DID have wild dreams and snippets of memory remain. I know my sisters boyfriend was in the Dream and something about a festival/amusementpark-kind of scene. My First Datura dream in which I met the Lady herself was on a night AFTER I had just drank a humble, threshhold dose of Datura Tea with a friend. I guess some of it's effects or after effects lingered when I tried drinking a Datura Tea again that night in humble, cautios amounts. So I will try this again tonight.


Now I know that Choline seems to aid vivid, clear, memorable Dreaming. Datura contains Anti Cholinergic substances. So I suppose it is when Datura's AntiCholinergic effects wear off one experiences an Acetyl-coline rebound resulting in very vivid, consciously experienced dreams.

Maybe an Idea:
Now Scopolamine, Atropine and Hyosciamine (Datura's 3 psycho-active alkaloids of which Scopolamine is said to be the main Hallucinogenic/Psychedelic one) are anti-cholinergic substances; Meaning they inhibit the uptake of Choline by blokCholine-Receptors in the Brain.
What if one were to predload oneself with Choline supplements or Choline/Choline-precursor rich foods in the evening till the moment just before going to bed. And Then drink a cup of Datura Tea. Maybe all the Choline that couldn't be taken into the Receptors suddenly CAN when the Datura effect wears off.

Interresting links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscarinic_antagonist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopolamine

Interresting experience reports that indicate Datura in Low, safe doses may just be a perfect dream-intensifying herb that make one experience dreams with a higher awareness ( these people reported longer, more continuous and lifelike-realistic dreams that were lucid ) Check out the reports of people so unwise and naïve to try out a "trippy" dose of datura. Notice how all their experiences end in a night of VERY VERY vivid dreaming, allmost all of thm Lucid.

Check it out:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=49308
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=8657

The suggestion given here is that 2 to 5 Datura seeds is an Oneirogenic dose.
Last night I took 3 datura seeds which I had freshly harvested that day in my garden.
I had a very wild night full of dreams and before falling asleep I had VERY vivid Hypnagogic imagery and strange tactile sensations like those felt when allmost alseep but much sooner. Too bad I awoke because of my friend's telephone ringing and lost all recall. Bits of it still linger and I have flashbacks of split-seconds of last night's dreams throughout the day.

I'll be trying this again tonight with 2 seeds. Anyone down for this? Remember kids: Never more than 5 seeds. Unless you seek to die or lose your mind forever in a nightmare-ish way. 5 seeds is a safe dose that can never bring you into the much feared Datura Delirium-state, let alone be toxically dangerious. However it is adviced to do this no more often than every once a week or so. You don't want to build up any significant bloodlevels of atropine or scopolamine.

Chewing 3 seeds prior to sleep gave me very mild, "flying" sensations over my body and alot more closed eye pre-dream imagery than usual.
Tonight I will chew another 2 seeds tonight prior to bed( bearing in mind that the scopolamine and atropine of last night's 3 seeds is still in my system ) and make DAMN sure I won't be awoken abruptly tomorrow. Meaning Telephone off and making a clear point to my mom that she should not wake me up tomorrow.

Do let us know how this experiment has gone, i'm EXTREMELY interested! Good luck :)

tried this twice now. Once with 3 seeds and once with 5 seeds. My dreams were near impossible to remember, as they have been for a very long time now. My DreamRecall is in a really bad shape for allmost a year now. All along I've attempted to keep my dreamdiary but no DreamRecall progress has occured.

Dispite having very little memory of my dreams, I have split-second flashbacks of my dreams throughout the day. Like ALOT of information: location, people, situation, atmosphere..everything. But the memories, no matter how detailed and complete flash by so fast that I cannot comprehend the memories of the ultra short flashbacks.

And dispite hardily any to zero dreamrecall I could defenitely tell that the 2 nights I ate the Seeds had caused wild, vivid, impressive dreams as the feeling of just having been through ALOT of experiences still lingered after awakening. I could tell that I had very intense dreams, though they were JUST below the surface of my Conscious memory, you know what I'm speaking of?

Perhaps any good tips for increasing my DreamRecall without the use of a DreamJournal?
Perhaps something more in the direction of selfhypnosis, mnemonic setting of intention, Supplements/Herbs/Foods, or other clever tricks as dreamrecall-improvement tools are more likely to "be heard" by my Subconscious and gain me access to my Subconscious (Dream)memories.

Anyone here who thinks she/he can help me with that? Cause I think this Datura experiment will only be fruitfull once I can at least remember 2 Dreams a night.

If anyone can help me improve my DreamRecall, I will report back results on my 5 Datura seeds & Dreaming experiment.

DreamRecall's someat better these days. Still not great. But tonight I will eat 3 Datura seeds +/- an hour before bedtime and wash it away with some applejuice.

Oh boy I had some Vivid inferno dreams last night. And such great recall. Haven't experienced such vividness and such great DreamRecall in many many months if not well over a year.

I have yet to find out wether the Applejuice was to blaim or the 3 Datura seeds I ate. I did both seperately before without significant results so I'm placing my betsn on the Combination of the 2.

Trying this again soon.

I see that I forgot to post my Dream in which I encountered Lady Datura. What a shame. So I will do it now anyways.

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I Dreamt that I was in some kind of enviroment with big buildings, looking alot like TV-studios. I was walking down a red carpet of some sort when I crossed an elderly lady sitting on the ground, motionless. 2 people walked ahead of me and I stopped as I noticed a Scorpion crawling on the ground near the Elderly lady. She was cloacked in a grey/kaki colored, worn down robe of some crude material. She was staring in front of her.

I stopped and said: "Excuse me lady, but your Scorpion is loose and crawling around here". She said nothing and still had the same dead-stare in her eyes. Her eyes were like 2 luminous yellow balls and her face was old and wrinkled. I sat down to look her in the face and put my hands in her hands which were on her lap.

They felt really warm and caring. You know how some people's hands feel kind and loving? Just like that. So I layed my head on her lap and relaxed into her kind, warm hands with a smile and closed eyes. Then suddenly I felt her vibe change from a kind one to a Cold, wicked, vengefull and evil one and her hands had an iron grip on mine. I couldn't release myself from her grip, couldn't even move out of her lap. Totally numbed I looked up into her eyes and was overcome by the cold deadstare. Behind her head, in her Cloak, I saw the same luminous Yellow light as in her eyes, shine and illuminate the inside of the cloak behind her head. Out of this light, in the Cloak, emerged the legs of an enormous spider who was comming up from below. The legs were about as long as my own arms. It was comming out to eat me. To tear me appart and consume me. I was sure of this and yet couldn't move an inch.

I saw its jaws extend to my face and in utmost dispair I prepared to be devoured. Then i awoke in quite a shock as you can Imagine.

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That was Lady Datura forcing respect and telling me not to take her lightly. I followed up her advice.

After the last Datura-Dreaming experiment, in which I took 3 seeds as described in my Previous post, I have still had it's oneirogenic effects this week. It seemed to have boosted my DreamRecall for the rest of the week. very significantly.

Last night I dreamt about a house in the wilderness that had a dark, sinister atmosphere about it and the night before I dreamt of a poorly lit gymhall where a sort of walking oven-beast was searching for me and jumped up with it's furnace mouth open to gulp me up and incinerate me. Later I was in that Gymhall again, fully lit, and I was in the Iron grip of a Vampire man who looked like a stereotypical badass gymnastics teacher in his 40s but he had an inhumanly strong grip from which I couldn't release myself, Had eyes that were VERY bright green/grey-ish and looked at me hysterically. His teeth were sticking out and I was thinking: Can't get loose, gotta undergo his will. Then I would look at his fangs again and the hysterical, obsessive look in his eyes that just said: I want your blood and thought: Hellno I can't do this!!. I awoke before he bit me.

HAHA I was like oh god no someone mentioned Dature, coz I remember that thread you made all that time ago saying not to mention it's name haha
I agree with SKA it's a very dangerous substance. I honestly don't know how you can love it SKA. I took a bit one night and smoked it (researched on it pretty heavily before I tried it) and as soon as I inhaled this intense cold rush just went all over my body and freaked me the fuck out. Not sure if my dreams were vivid at all.
Serpent did you ever try it on the dose ska said to take?

: Points at avatar :

I have a batch of D. Inoxia seeds that I harvested from a mother plant in the Colorado Mountains. I've tried anywhere from 5-15 seeds before bedtime with varying effects. I don't recommend ANYONE take more than 20-30 seeds (or 2 flowers/leaves, if you prefer tea). EVER. The truth is that She is a very fickle lady; I trust Her only because I cultivate Her myself every year and tend to her dotingly as She grows. There is definitely potential here, but I honestly wouldn't recommend Datura to anyone new at the Psychedelic game or anybody home alone. If you're looking for a cheap "in" to LDing... you're probably in for a very rude awakening. If you are searching for a way to extend your consciousness in a holistic manner while giving due respect to a dangerous plant... all I will say is do your homework. Research more than you think you need to. This plant puts people in comas as a hobby.

For the record, general consensus seems to be that D. Inoxia produces more favorable dream effects that D. Metel or other variants.

There are others that aren't killers. Try something else

yeah dont do it, even if it does work i could be the placibo affect and also there is no point risking it...also if you can ld naturally you wont need ANY drug

Garjzla: Some drugs'/herbs' ACTUAL effects are arguable as to wether there may be placebo instead of actual effect. This is not the case with Datura.
Mushrooms, Peyote, Salvia and the like also belong in this "No possibility of effects being placebo"-group with Datura. And also: The question is not wether or not certain herbs/drugs are NEEDED in lucid Dreaming, but instead wether or not certain herbs/Drugs are HELPFULL in lucid Dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Blakesawake

There are others that aren't killers. Try something else

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The Difference between a Medicine/Divining agent and a poison is the Dose.
Do you know what happens if you take just a couple too many paracetamol painkillers? Try overingesting coffee. You will wake up in hospital with white robbed folks pumping out the contents of your stomach. IF you're lucky.

Proven by me and 2 folks known from erowid experiences, 2 to 5 Datura seeds are perfectly oneirogenic. Datura becomes a (possible)killer in doses from 20 seeds and more. And the deliriant dose can, if you have an unusually, extremely strong batch, start at as little as 15 seeds. But that is one case I read about and most of the times a deliriant dose starts from 1 to 2 TABLEspoons of seeds.

The 2 - 5 seed range is allways safe, allthough slightly psychoactive never deliriant and perfectly oneirogenic. The only caution I want to give is to never use oneirogenic doses of Datura seeds 2 nights in a row: You might build up a significant bloodlevel of scopolamine if you are to consume even only 3 datura seeds for 3 succeeding nights.

Smoking Datura gives acute but relatively weak effects. No delirium is to be expected from smoking Datura leaf or flowers. Only a mild, but defenite intoxication in the "intensity-class" of Marijuana, with occasional, possible slight visuals and a mild rise in mood/perception overall.

I am thinking of other plants which effects are expectably/known/rumoured to be oneirogenic, such as Salvia Divinorum, psilocybe mushrooms, peyote/sanpedro cactus, Calea Zacatechichi and African DreamRoot(Silene Capensis) with which to combine Datura as a potent Oneirogenic HerbMixture.

Would you really combine Datura with something else?
To me that sounds completely crazy. Especially if it is such an unforgiving plant.

It is not so unforgiving at all at doses of 3 to 5 seeds. in fact hardily noticable. Only the DreamEffects are very noticable. I thought I explained how the low dose would be safe mentally and physically. Can't you read?

Now with those effects barely noticable I intend to ingest something else with known oneirogenic effects with it. Also in doses so low I won't or hardily will feel it's effects while awake. The intent is to create effects profoundly stimulant uppon dreams while hardily or not at all noticable while awake.

Yeh I can read surprisingly. I thought you were talking about normal doses. Anyway I was mainly talking in terms of who knows what adding something else to it will do even in such a small dose. I'm not saying you're an idiot, just speculating.

ive taken datura inoxia twice for the trip.

first time= no success of LD / mild trip

second time= partial succsess of LD / HEAVY trip, see, when i was i the delirus state i knew i was in reality because: i decided to do the rc's right after my first big hallucination, (i was sitting on the toilet [to pee becuase if i stood up i would have fallen over] looking at the fake tile floor,the diamond shaped tiles sourrounded by square cut tiles started to move around in circles and then they started to blink flashing lights of red, yellow, green, purple all in a line, then i watched one of the blinking tiles float up my wall) So i clicked in and rc'd -> passed, im in reality. The whole experience felt like i was looking through my eyelids. (about 3 hours in i started to hallucinate visualy and had been in bed due to lack of motor skills.) So eventualy i somehow managed to put my finger through my palm! so i sit up and do the nose plug test -> passed, in reality.
i do plan on using d. inoxia again for lucid dreaming because this is the first time in my many months of practicing LDing where ive sucessfuly failed a rc.
and
P.S. remember to test out your Datura in tiny doses before u try it for recreational purposes or any other purpose for that matter.

My advice is to not do what Behr has done, cause Behr could have easily died or gone mental permanently. My advice to you Behr is to never take Datura "recreationally" again.
In such dosages, incidentally stronger plant material could contain dosages of tropane alkaloids very able to kill you by cardiac arrest or resperatory failure.

So the fact that you're still alive is the lucky outcome of a gambling bet with your existance/mind in the jackpot.

Not advised. That's why I was thinking of these really low doses(2 to 5 seeds) possibly combined with low doses of other entheogenic/oneirogenic alkaloids; Because no one in the Right mind would really want to take more Datura than that and risk lethal Datura Posioning or Permanent schizophrenia.

Fuck not with this plant. Most of those who took her in Delirious dosages can't tell the Story, because they're 6 feet under or because they permanently speak in tongues.

SKA, telling lies isn't going to stop people from using it. There are numerous people who have taken it in 'delirious dosages' and survived. It won't send you crazy forever although I'm sure it will screw you up quite a bit.
I'm just saying this because the 'drugs send you crazy' approach is what the government uses. I'm yet to hear of any drug that sends you crazy forever even in huge doses.

That being said, it is definitely one of those drugs not to be used for recreation, full stop.

If you have any proof that it can send you crazy however, please provide a link here. I'm just yet to see any proof of such claims.

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Originally Posted by tommo

I'm yet to hear of any drug that sends you crazy forever even in huge doses.

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I know of one close friend who went on a meth binge ten years ago, had a massive psychotic breakdown, and still to this day cannot function because of the incident.

He is still on anti-psychotics among other things.

I've only met a few people who have wigged out for a couple of years due to heavy hallucinogenic use (LSD mostly). They weren't completely crazy after a couple of years, but they were still not quite right even though they could function.

I do not think datura is really a suitable 'plant ally' though. I'm sure the user will learn things, but it won't be gentle at all unlike many other safer alternatives.

Yeh, meth is just the epitome of stupidity tho.
Whoever made it deserves to be shot.

Definitely you can change after using drugs heavily, some will, some won't, it's not worth the risk to take massive doses of anything. But I don't think you're ever going to be as SKA said 'talking in tongues' for the rest of your life.

I second the 'not a good plant ally' thing for sure.

I haven't told any lies, Tommo I told people my conclusions from reading MANY MANY Erowid-Datura Experiences: That is, if one gets out of a heavy Datura Delirium unscratched mentally or physically, one should consider themselves INCREDIBLY lucky.

Meth is for those that intend to waste themselves, physically and mentally.
Not even saying another word about a degenerating substance such as Meth.

Nevertheless do I reckon that a Tea of 3 ground Datura Seeds and 1 large mushroom, or 2 small mushrooms of the Paneaolus Cyanescens (Hawaiian strain/species of Magic Mushrooms) would be one HELL of a DreamEnhancer that will have little to no effect on daytime consciousness.

Well, you said before that people have been talking in tongues for the rest of their lives and I just don't think that has ever happened. I've never seen any reports of it.

Have you tried the combo before? Tell us when you do if you haven't.
Also probably better to measure in dry weight? Instead of big and small, that can be pretty relative.

For EVERYONE's information. Do not underestimate the Drug Knowledge/Drug Know How of SKA. I have talked with him on many occasions. And do trust me, he knows EXACTLY what he is talking about. Having a rather vast and immense knowledge of drugs and their effects I will agree with him.

Datura is a VERY DANGEROUS substance. It is not to be "FUCKED WITH" by wood be noobs. The dosages posted by SKA are in fact within actually I shouldn't say within they are mildy under the reported safe dose range.

Yes MANY MANY MANY MANY people have died. Or are now in a loony-bin because of this substance, you find speaking in tongues improbable? Well I must say when you have lost utterly all touch with reality for a prolonged period of time and have caused irreparable damage to your brain faculties yes you would speak in tongues as well. It is very hard to know exactly how much of it you are getting. So doing less is safe. Don't think doing a bit more will be "alright" chances are it won't.

However despite everything I have said. Datura is in fact quite an interesting substance. It does have very great dream potential. However just be safe with it. If you know about Datura already, than I am sure you have looked up the necessary information and are simply reporting your own personal findings.

Also I don't see why people always say "Don't do it" or "Your stupid" etc. whenever someone says they are going to attempt something. Most people who post topics like this are more often than not experienced. And do not need the advice of the inexperienced. You wouldn't tell a pothead how to smoke pot if you've never done it yourself would you? Indeed you would not. Unless of course you were trying to be a smart ass, but I digress.

Be safe man.

Years ago I tried a little Datura leaf tea(one small leaf, I think). It took a long time to wear off. I had to call in sick the next day as my eyes wouldn't focus and I tended to ramble off in a dream like fugue state that morning. I made some excuse about being sick. It was the following day before I could read again. I didn't recall anything as to dreams so I didn't try it again.

Carlos Casteneda claimed to have used it in his first book. He described an elaborate ritual where he dug up a root, replanted it,then later created a paste using the root and seeds. I remember that he claimed the flowers would make you crazy and the leaves weren't good either. I wonder if there is a difference in alkaloid balance between the different parts the the plant. He also claimed that its after effects caused his muscles to grow and him to feel healthier. On the other hand he was a notorious lier!

I wonder if it might be more useful combined with other things like Choline during the recovery period. Or perhaps Velvet Beans to make the whole experience a bit more vivid.

By itself its it will mostly just screw you up.

TruthHunter

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Originally Posted by Brandon Heat

For EVERYONE's information. Do not underestimate the Drug Knowledge/Drug Know How of SKA. I have talked with him on many occasions. And do trust me, he knows EXACTLY what he is talking about. Having a rather vast and immense knowledge of drugs and their effects I will agree with him.

Datura is a VERY DANGEROUS substance. It is not to be "FUCKED WITH" by wood be noobs. The dosages posted by SKA are in fact within actually I shouldn't say within they are mildy under the reported safe dose range.

Yes MANY MANY MANY MANY people have died. Or are now in a loony-bin because of this substance, you find speaking in tongues improbable? Well I must say when you have lost utterly all touch with reality for a prolonged period of time and have caused irreparable damage to your brain faculties yes you would speak in tongues as well. It is very hard to know exactly how much of it you are getting. So doing less is safe. Don't think doing a bit more will be "alright" chances are it won't.

However despite everything I have said. Datura is in fact quite an interesting substance. It does have very great dream potential. However just be safe with it. If you know about Datura already, than I am sure you have looked up the necessary information and are simply reporting your own personal findings.

Also I don't see why people always say "Don't do it" or "Your stupid" etc. whenever someone says they are going to attempt something. Most people who post topics like this are more often than not experienced. And do not need the advice of the inexperienced. You wouldn't tell a pothead how to smoke pot if you've never done it yourself would you? Indeed you would not. Unless of course you were trying to be a smart ass, but I digress.

Be safe man.

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I know you were telling everyone but I would just like to say I wasn't underestimating his knowledge, I know he's done way more drugs than I have. But I make a habit of getting proper facts and not subjective or word-of-mouth "facts". That is why I doubt that anyone has been permanently damaged by it in a significant way, i.e speaking in tongues.
If you have evidence please post it.

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Originally Posted by TruthHunter

I wonder if there is a difference in alkaloid balance between the different parts the the plant. He also claimed that its after effects caused his muscles to grow and him to feel healthier. On the other hand he was a notorious lier!

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There is almost always a difference in alkaloid content in different parts of plants. If not always.
LMAO at the muscles thing. Anyone know if that holds any truth?

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Originally Posted by tommo

I know you were telling everyone but I would just like to say I wasn't underestimating his knowledge, I know he's done way more drugs than I have. But I make a habit of getting proper facts and not subjective or word-of-mouth "facts". That is why I doubt that anyone has been permanently damaged by it in a significant way, i.e speaking in tongues.
If you have evidence please post it.


There is almost always a difference in alkaloid content in different parts of plants. If not always.
LMAO at the muscles thing. Anyone know if that holds any truth?

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The fact that you that you do not understand that he is giving actual "Facts" that have been tried, tested, and proven. He does not spout word-of-mouth facts as you put it.

Trust me, we have both done our fair share of research. I'm not gonna try and go out of my way to prove you wrong. Google can do that for me. If you really want the proof go look for it yourself.

Seriously the way you carry yourself on here is that of ignorance or arrogance take your pick.

Me arrogant? I'm not the one giving so called facts without proof.
If you claim something like that you should provide a case where it has actually happened. If not when I ask you should at least provide it, show me where yu got that information from. Otherwise it just leads to extreme doubt.
BUT since I am not arrogant or ignorant (don't know what ignorance has to do with this BTW, I just assuming you don't know the difference between the two) I will look up the side-effects/contraindications of scopolamine; which I'm pretty sure I have done before which is why I am sceptical.

Here I will help you with vocabulary terms.

Dictionary:
ignorance
(ĭg'nər-əns) pronunciation

Home > Library > Literature & Language > Dictionary
n.

The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.


Seeing as how you are unaware, and fail to properly inform yourself you fulfill the definition. Also I could even say you are uneducated, but I will not be a smartass like that it's just rude.

Next vocab word the day.

Dictionary:
arrogant
(ăr'ə-gənt) pronunciation

Home > Library > Literature & Language > Dictionary
adj.

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak. See synonyms at proud.

It would appear to me however I may be wrong that you seem to be trying to disprove what everyone is saying. Carrying yourself in a higher light than others. This is just what it seems like to me. Perhaps you are simply annoying me.

As for known effects here we go.

Effects of ingestion

Due to the potent combination of anticholinergic substances it contains, Datura intoxication typically produces effects similar to that of an anticholinergic delirium: a complete inability to differentiate reality from fantasy (frank delirium, as contrasted to hallucination); hyperthermia; tachycardia; bizarre, and possibly violent behavior; and severe mydriasis with resultant painful photophobia that can last several days. Pronounced amnesia is another commonly reported effect.

According to the drug information site Erowid, no other substance has received as many "Train Wreck" severely negative experience reports as has Datura[5], noting that "the overwhelming majority of those who describe to us their use of Datura (and to a lesser extent, Belladonna, Brugmansia and Brunfelsia) find their experiences extremely mentally and physically unpleasant and not infrequently physically dangerous."

The full listing of reports can be found at www.erowid.org. Numerous stories of Datura-related deaths and critical illnesses can also be found at the Lycaeum Datura Index here.

http://www.erowid.com <--- if you like to read some reports on the negativity of this.
http://mv.lycaeum.org/mu/datura.html for deaths and tragic incidents.

As a matter of fact, I don't see why I'm pushing so hard.

It is a known "FACT" datura in the right amount produces Delerium, and Psychosis. If you know what the two of these are. The speaking in tongues. Which I begin to question if you know what the means. Basically rambling things that make absolutely no sense. Talking in "Gibberish" if you will is what it means.

Okay Tommo if you insist me to prove with irrefutable facts.. So it goes:

Lowest dose of Datura Seeds I've read of that caused a heavy delirium
(Only 15 seeds): http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=16996

The main Datura Experience list; notice how many reports are in the latter 4 cathegories(Difficult experiences, bad Trips, health problems and Trainwrecks&Tripdisasters)
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Datura.shtml

And a couple of concrete experiences that indicate why to avoid Datura Delirium:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=17700
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=17137
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=36702
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=1825
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=3341
And last but CERTAINLY not least:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=66232

And those 6 experiences are just a minute fraction of the gruwesomely evil Datura experiences with disastrous outcomes. There are MANY Datura induced Deaths(Toxicity, Suicide, Accidents), Hospitalisations, temporary and permanent insanity, leading to temporary and permanent admissions to the Psych Ward and Arrests. Check if you want to but I think my point is proven.

Oh boy that sure sounds like alot of fun doesn't it. ;)
For MindExploratory purposes I'd rather drink a Cup of strong Magic Mushroom Tea(have many times), Peyote Tea(haven't yet) or Ayahuasca Tea(haven't yet). I have snorted Yopo-snuff 3 times, which I would do again some time and I have vaporising pure DiMethyl Tryptamine(DMT) atop of my to-do list. I have done LSD 9 times and would do it again for sure. I have experienced the most religious, excentric, upsetting, worldviewchanging, liberating, humbling, visionairy, enlightening and at times terryfing States of Consciousness using Psychedelics, but.....

I would not use Datura for "traveling deep" For that I'll safely stick to the aforementioned visionairy agents. Can't you see my point? Take it from someone who greatly igmires psychedelics and has traveled very deep using them.

I'm glad I found any kind of Responsible, constructive use for Datura and that is humble humble amounts for DreamEnhancement. And I am content with that. I reckon that at one point in my life I might add perhaps 3 - 5 crushed Datura seeds to a Psychedelic Brew of Mushrooms. I might even at one point make a Brew of Mushrooms, Peyote and a Pinch of Datura (3 to 5 seeds). Just to add a Visionairy and Spiritual touch of Datura to the experience. But that's about as far as I'll ever go. To slightly taint a psychoactive brew with a mere HINT of Datura.
And I will stay safely under the maximum of 5 seeds as the first link of the erowid datura experience reports I posted show that 15 seeds can be enough to induce a fullblown delirium.


Tommo I am not saying this to outsmart you on this subject or to seem more intelligent. Not being a Wise ass if that's what you think.
I have some information that make the fact that you are experimenting with Datura, even if only very slightly, very upsetting. That information tells me you could have easily died or gone permanently psychotic from your experiences and that if you continue them you may still die or go permanently apeshit.

Mate I'm just being concerned and don't want you to die or live in psychotic hell for the rest of your life. I care and so I may sometimes sound as your father. Instead of noticing how someone is telling you what to do and what not to do, notice how someone is being kind by warning you of the dangers you are facing.

Ok first.... Brandon - Ignorance means you lack knowledge, yes. It refers to lack of knowledge in a lot of areas. Fair enough you could say I am ignorant on the topic of one thing, but not just 'ignorant'. Because that's ignorant in itself since you don't know me at all.

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It is a known "FACT" datura in the right amount produces Delerium, and Psychosis. If you know what the two of these are. The speaking in tongues. Which I begin to question if you know what the means. Basically rambling things that make absolutely no sense. Talking in "Gibberish" if you will is what it means.

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Obviously I know what it means. I am not saying it can't produce these effects I am saying it can't, or rather HASN'T produced it permanently.
There's no point linking me to erowid.org, that's just stupid, at least do what SKA did and show specific reports. Because I know what erowid is and have spent probably all up, days worth looking on there.
Again, I am not denying the fact that it causes delerium.

SKA - I understand what you're trying to do. But just so you know, I am not experimenting with Datura. I have once smoked Brugmansia and it produced no effects I could discern. Except for a brief sort of cold rush over my body and brief anxiety. But no delirium that I noticed although I fell asleep pretty soon after.

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The main Datura Experience list; notice how many reports are in the latter 4 cathegories(Difficult experiences, bad Trips, health problems and Trainwrecks&Tripdisasters)

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lol, That was the main thing I noticed too when I first came to find out about this plant. I was just like, HOLY shit, it's so unbalanced in the good and bad trips compared to all the other drug vaults.

I didn't read all the reports yet that you posted but that last one was insane. I can understand now what it feels like to be completely psychotic/schizophrenic. That's important information for me because my Auntie recently had her second psychotic breakdown and is in a psych ward. So that gives me a bit of insight into what could be and probably is happening to her.
That trip was like something straight out of a fucked up horror movie, he suddenly comes back into the room and his sitter is gone and the TV is off etc. It makes me feel like it would be possible to go insane from it simply because it makes you question what is real. Like maybe if an unstable or weak-minded (not even necessarily weak minded) person took it and came back they could keep thinking that they are still tripping. Which would be scary to say the least.

So yes, now that I think about it it would probably be possible.

BTW back on the topic of dreaming with it....
I just found this little thing - while I was searching for permanent brain damage cases - that someone wrote.

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This drug is freaky. It does help significantly with nausea, but man the side effects! I took it an hour or two before I went to asleep and felt slightly drugged and delusional, but nothing I couldn't handle. Then I had the worst and most realistic nightmare! It was living hell and I could even feel things it was so realistic. I was thrashing about the whole night and my blankets were all over the place and I was hanging onto the side of my bed...scared some people. You don't know what a nightmare is until you take this. Honestly. But the relief it provided me was worth it, so it's up to you. It does help to be well seasoned in the land of psychotic episodes. That would be me. :-)

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EDIT: This is just the kind of thing I was trying to stop from happening. Look at this site full of complete bullshit information.
http://www.sobercircle.com/Article.aspx?Article_ID=8
It says a guy ingested 7g of scopolamine.
The video says it takes your free will and you still look completely normal. Obviously that's bullshit, you look like a psycho; in the literal sense of the word.
It also tells the good old urban legend of the guy emptying his own apartment. I heard the exact same thing to a T, except replace 'man' with 'woman' and 'Datura' with 'GHB'.

Well Tommo if you've spent alot of Time reading about Datura on Erowi I really wonder how you came to such a different conclusion than I have.

I've also read Datura Trip reports of people who I would "not exactly"call weakminded. Psychedelic veterans with many many LSD, Mushroom, Peyote, Salvia and even DMT experiences still shat their pants after using datura, said things like"Stay away from it, This plant is brutal, This plant is a personification of the Devil"..etc..and vowed never to take it again.

If veteran Psychonaughts say that, then for me alarmbells start ringing. I usually take all experience reports with a grain of salt, considering the fact that they are Subjective reports. Alot of people report Magic Mushrooms Being EVIL. That hasn't lead me to conclude Mushrooms are evil. I know they have a very Darkside, but in essence are very neutral. Can't say the same for Datura.

My Datura Tea experience, using only HALF a flower of Brugmansia, was enough to "let me know what areal nightmare" was, even if it was so subtle in effects. Darkness came over me, at times exciting, but mostly opressing, evil, sinister. I felt a long episode of Dispair, slight horror/anxiety. As if being in a Dark room where Monstrous dark figures are circling around you and touch you every now and then yet not hurt you. But knowing they CAN hurt you and might tare you appart is what the feeling is like to me.

Like putting my safety/life in the hands of a goulish, terryfying monster and having to accept whatever it's gunna do with you. Disempowered, humbled and opressed, but not in a way I can say I got much Life-wisdom out of the experience.. Only not to do it again. Not even Half a flower. Datura to me = I want my mommy, I've never felt so far away from "home" in such a cold, lonely way.

Have you ever met lady Datura in person? Maybe you should. I met her and she was VERY pursuasive to make me stop trying to interact my consciousness with her's.

Well, I hadn't read AS much on Erowid about Datura as I have about a lot of other drugs. But I did read a fair bit. It was when I was about to try it. So I kind of avoided all the bad trip reports so I didn't overwhelm my mind with that kind of expectation.

I don't think I have that much of a different conclusion. I mean I know it's a scary fucking plant. I've never stated otherwise. But I'm just not sold on the idea that it can create permanent brain damage; although I admit it is theoretically possible given the way it makes you question reality and such.

BTW that one report you showed that said a kid was psychotic for a few years wasn't verified. The note at the top says that Erowid investigates all reports that claim permanent or long term adverse effects and the poster hasn't replied to them yet.

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I've also read Datura Trip reports of people who I would "not exactly"call weakminded.

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I said "not even necessarily weak minded", meaning having a weak mind would make you more susceptible to a psychotic breakdown or at least a bad trip BUT it doesn't mean that people with strong minds can't also have a bad trip or psychotic breakdown. Sorry if I was a bit vague.

Lol first you told me to not experiment now you are suggesting I try it?
Did you actually 'see' lady datura? Like you see entities on DMT and such? I seem to remember you saying it was just a feeling of her.
Anyway, I don't know, I doubt I will in the near future. The instant bad feeling it gave me the first time kind of made me feel it was warning me off.
I am maybe one of those people some would call weak-minded. I don't think I am mind you but I have a history of Anxiety, Depression and OCD. So yeah, sometimes I think it may make those sort of things worse, especially on these kinds of drugs, whereas Cannabis and Hallucinogens can help.

So yes, maybe after I get all those things sorted out and have a bit more experience I would try Datura. But not for the moment.

Actually I met her in person in a Dream. A dream I had 2 nights after my Low dose(half a flower)Brugmansia tea experience. Not a shady figure, but an old cloaked lady with a cold deadstare in her eyes in full detail.

I posted this dream in this Topic. If you scroll up and down the previous page of this Topic it should be in one of my posts there.

Oh yeah I remember, the bipolar lady lol
Creepy.

In Native American tribes of the southwest, as is often the case with tribes elsewhere, in rites of passage, a young person coming of age would fast and pray for days in order to purify himself. In some cases, the initiate might be isolated or left in the wild alone. At the appropriate time, a Medicine person or tribal spiritual elder that would nominally be called by others than Native Americans, a Shaman, might accompany the initiate to a holy place, possibly a mountain top or cave, and a tea would be made from the roots, leaves and even the seeds from the prickly seed pod of a plant called Sacred Datura. The individual would drink this tea and wait for visions, and the initiate would definitely have visions.

Besides those sacred rites of passage, Datura, which is refered to in some cultures as la Yerba Del Diablo, but known to the Chumash people of California, the Mohave, Yuma, Cahuilla, Zuni and others as toloache from the Aztec toloatizn, "to incline the head" (and the person adminstering the Datura as a tolachero), has been used to hex and to break hexes, to produce sleep and induce dreams, and for protection from evil. It has also been used for Divination, to find one's Totem Animal, to allow one to see ghosts, for communing with birds, for long hunts and strength, for sharper vision, for sorcery and to increase supernatural powers as in Aushadhis, the awakening of the supernormal perceptual states through the use of certain drugs and herbs. Like other tropane-containing plants that have been used historically for so called Flying Ointments, Sacred Datura has been used in certain rituals related to inducing the ability to fly through eating or drinking and sometimes an ointment think witches flying ointments.

Datura is still widely used in the Caribbean for similar or all of the reasons as well, and called there "herbe aux sorciers" (herb of the sorcerers) among the various French speaking islanders. On the English speaking islands, Jamaica for example, those who practice the spellcraft Obeah are also known to incorporate almost interchangeably with Datura another Nightshade herb they call Branched Calalue.

SACRED DATURA: Nightshade Family [Solanaceae] is found in western Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, southern California, Mexico, and the West Indies and grows within an elevation range between sea level and 6,500 feet. The name Datura, its generic name, is from the Hindu Dhatura (dhat=the eternal essence (of God)), which was derived from the Sanskrit name D'hastura.[1] Sacred Datura bloom at night starting early evening and typically closing around noon the following day. They are pollinated by nocturnal visitors, usually sphinx or hawk moths.

The tea from Datura is extremely hallucinogenic. The hallucinogenic effects are reported to be stronger than Peyote, Psyillicibin, or LSD. However, Datura is also very toxic and can cause permanent psychosis. Solanaceous plants such as Sacred Datura contain relatively high concentrations of tropane alkaloids, primarily Atropine, Hyoscyamine, and Scopolamine, the primary alkaloid being Scopolamine. It is apparently Scopolamine that produces the hallucinogenic effects. It induces an intoxication followed by narcosis in which hallucinations occur during the transition state between consciousness and sleep

When Datura is used in a Native American ritual, it is always under the guidance of an individual of certain tribal spritual resolve such as a Medicine person or tribal elder. These experts on the use of the plant know what other plants to add in order to neutralize the harmful effects. They also know how much to adminsister and when and where to pick the plants, such as age, season, time of year, whether under a full moon or no moon at all. Chemical constituents and levels vary greatly from plant to plant, time of year, and from one area to another just generally, but especially so if the plants are obtained through ritual or from a spot known for having special powers like the Sun Dagger site on Fajada Butte in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, holy places of some sort such as Vortexes, or sacred grounds. The plants are very toxic, poisonous and lethal, especially if consumed in quanities unmetered by someone not versed in their safe administration. They can, however, when properly dealt with, produce the end result sought after, and quite adequately so, in the spiritual realm.

Although typically connected with Peyote in the minds of the general public, one of the formost users of Datura was Carlos Castaneda who claimed its use as an apprentice to a Yaqui Indian shaman-sorcerer named Don Juan Matus that is said to have studied under a Diablero.

In that there are a number of species of Datura there is some confusion as to what Datura Castaneda may have used. According to Castaneda in THE TEACHINGS OF DON JUAN: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge a shaman-sorcerer has an Ally contained in the Datura plants commonly known as jimson weed. Don Juan called that ally by one of the Spanish names of the plant, yerba del diablo (devil's weed) as well as Mescalito, with the ally taking on the form of a sort of plant spirit. According to Don Juan, as he related it to Castaneda, ANY of the species of Datura was the container of the ally. However, the sorcerer had to grow his own patch, not only in the sense that the plants were his private property, but in the sense that they were personally identified with him.

As for the "separate" Daturas, more or less on an official basis --- but not necessarily on a common basis as the names, species and terms are usually intermixed (although it must be said, even plant taxonomist disagree amongst themselves whether D. stramonium and D. inoxia are different species while D. inoxia and D. metaloides are considered alternate names for the same species). Usually, D. stramonium is most often the Datura species refered to as jimson weed, while D. metaloides (also sometimes D. wrightii) is usually applied to Sacred Datura, and D. inoxia is Toloache. Don Juan's own plants belonged to the species inoxia, however there was no correlation between THAT fact and any differences that may have existed between any of the species of Datura accessible to him.

Sanskrit names for Datura include: Dhattura, Dhuttura, Dhaturi, Dhustura, Turi, Dhurta, Dhurtakrita, Devika, Ghantika, Ghantapushpa, Khala, Kahalapushpa, Kalama, Kanaka, Kanakaohaya, Haravallabha, Kitava, Kanthaphala, Karjhunga, Kharadushana, Madanaka, Unmattaka, Madakara, Madana, Mahamohi, Mohana, Purimoha, Matulaka, Matula, Shatha, Mahashatha, Shyama, Shaiva, Shivapriya, Shivashekhara, Savisha, and Matta.

There is a mnemonic device for the physiological effects of datura/atropine intoxication: "blind as a bat, mad as a hatter, red as a beet, hot as hell, dry as a bone, the bowel and bladder lose their tone, and the heart runs alone."

Another rhyme describing its effects is, "Can't see, can't spit, can't pee, can't shit."

Regarding Datura, among the Navajo is the folk admonition, "Eat a little, and go to sleep. Eat some more, and have a dream. Eat some more, and don't wake up

Angel’s Trumpets
Datura inoxia
Family: the Tomato family, Solanaceae.
Also called Devil’s Trumpet, Thorn-apple, Indian apple,
Purple Datura, Garden Datura, Horn-of-Plenty, Chaico Blanco,
Yerba Diablo, David’s Bush, Concombre zombi.

Carlos Castaneda writes of his journey, as a participant, into Yaqui shamanism. In his narrative, this plant is exploited for spiritual/psychoactive purposes. However, its properties as a drug, and the accounts of those who have made the mistake of thinking that this plant is a possible “recreational,” make plain how stark and even brain damaging this plant can become. In the Mexico/Central American portion of its range, criminals have occasionally administered it to victims who can be left deranged or killed by its effects.

The two most prominent toxins associated with Datura inoxia are atropine and scopalomine. The inventory of defensive chemistry also includes hyoscyamine, hyoscine, norscopalomine, and meteloidine. While these are the source of its hallucinatory reputation, they are also a source of dementia, psychosis, heart distress with tachycardia and increase of systolic blood pressure. The main use of angel trumpets in the present day is as an accent plant for the garden or landscape.
Angel’s trumpets can be kept in almost any location, in the lower 48 states, provided it receives full sun for the summer months. It is not recommended for use around children’s play areas because the sweet smelling flowers attract attention and experimentation from small children. A minuscule piece of leaf or flower, eaten by a very young child is a clinical dose. This large and imposing plant has a rather rank, almost stale-popcorn aroma that is irritating to some people

Angel Trumpets are grey-tinted semi-woody bushes of waste places, weed patches, and semi-desert communities. Although perennial, they often die back to ground level after a particularly dry season, and are grown as annuals in colder, more northerly temperate parts of the U.S. They can reach heights of 6 feet (2 meters), and in the last half of the summer produce abundant bright white (sometimes slightly yellow or purple), solitary flowers exceeding 7 inches (18 cm) in diameter. The large leaves are covered with short fuzz that yield a rather blue/gray appearance. Before the flowers open, they are twirled into a spiral. The flowers develop into a slightly elongated, very spiky seedpod (often called Thornapple) about 2” (5 cm) in diameter.

When it comes to the use of drugs and hallucinogens most people associate Carlos Castaneda with Peyote. However, it wasn't Peyote but actually the plant Sacred Datura --- known throughout the desert southwest as jimsonweed --- that played the primary role in his early experiences into other realities --- including, it must be said, his most famous and most oft cited experience where he turned into a crow and flew.

(in) and around the mountains and deserts of Sonora, southern Arizona or New Mexico Don Juan sought out, met and was taught by an isolated, real, albeit, unnamed shaman-sorcerer said to be a diablero. Now, if Don Juan's master teacher was actually a Diablero or thought to be such by tribal kinsmen, a shaman with an evil bent as stated by Castaneda, then, even though originally he might have had ancestoral ties or a blood-line tribal affiliation with either the Yaqui or Yuma, although highly respected and cautiously sought out, he was, like Don Juan himself, most likely a loner or an outcast.

Don Juan was never too fond of what he called Yerba del Diablo, the "devil's weed." In the narrative Don Juan claimed its power was not unlike that of a woman saying:

"She (Datura) is as powerful as the best of allies, but there is something I personally don't like about her. She distorts men. She gives them a taste of power too soon without fortifying their hearts and makes them domineering and unpredictable. She makes them weak in the middle of their great power."

Relatively speaking, Peyote is a much more forgiving drug than Datura --- much easier to understand, use, and administer.

According to Castaneda in the THE TEACHING OF DON JUAN: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge, Chapter 3, on September 3, 1961 he and Don Juan Matus collected Datura plants from the field. Taking the plants back to the house Don Juan sat on the floor with his legs crossed and with a round stone mano began working them over on a flat slab which served as a mortar, mashing the root inside a bag. Occasionally he washed the stones in water kept in a small, flat, wooden basin. At the same time, under his breath, in a low, almost silent voice, he he sang a monotonous, nearly unintelligible chant. When he finished mashing the root into a soft pulp he put it in a larger, second wooden basin. He also placed the mortar and the pestle into the same basin, filled the whole thing with water and carried it to a rectangular trough sitting along the base of the back fence. There he told Castaneda the root pulp had to soak all night outside the house so it could catch the night air.
Citing the date September 7, 1961 Castaneda describes what happened next:

When we returned hours later, it was dark. On the bottom of the basin there was a layer of gummy substance. It resembled a batch of half-cooked starch, whitish or light gray. There was perhaps a full teaspoon of it. He took the basin inside the house, and while he put some water on to boil, I picked out pieces of dirt the wind had blown into the silt. He laughed at me.

"That little dirt won't hurt anybody."

When the water was boiling he poured about a cup of it into the basin. It was the same yellowish water he had used before. It dissolved the silt, making a sort of milky substance.

"What kind of water is that, don Juan?"

"Water of fruits and flowers from the canyon."

He emptied the contents of the basin into an old clay mug that looked like a flowerpot. It was still very hot, so he blew on it to cool it. He took a sip and handed me the mug.

"Drink now!" he said.

I took it automatically, and without deliberation drank all the water. It tasted somewhat bitter, although the bitterness was hardly noticeable. What was very outstanding was the pungent odor of the water. It smelled like cockroaches.

Please note that in the September 7, 1961 incident above, the use of Datura was a potion, that is, Castaneda drank a warm tea-like broth. Two years later, during the July 4, 1963 incident wherein Castaneda transformed into a crow and flew, the Datura was no longer a drink or brew but a rubbed on Flying Ointment.

Wow, ok, I just finished reading your first 3 posts and went to reply and there's another 7 or so.
I was going to say don't triple post. But, don't Duodecuple Post please.
What are these other plants the Shamans add?
Also I remember when I took a flower from the tree type of Datura (can't remember what it's called) it also turned into that tar like substance after a few days.

I went ahead and merged your posts for you, DiableroBrujo. Just for clarity :)

Thanks robot butler...
won't mutli post that long again.. one time deal.. just wanted to get info out there for people to chew on. ....

I've know fools who've boiled and eaten 50 to 100 seeds and they're still around. although 1 is a bit slow and he did spend a year or so in the local psych ward. the plant can kill u but its generally from you being is such a delirium that u walk out into traffic and get hit by a bus as your talking to an imagimary friend or something to that extent. You might decide to shave yourself with a butcher knife or glass thinking your doing something else. At high levels you are in ga ga land and have no control... that's why it's essential that if u use datura especially at recreational doses u have a sitter. matter of fact you'll probably need more than one so they can rotate.
NOTE: Datura last up to 72 hours remember that..... Up to 3 days.

Datura flowers at night, during mid and late summer, the blossoms are visited by large nocturnal hawk moths (family Sphingidae). They are sometimes called sphinx moths because the alarm posture of the larva resembles the Egyptian sphinx. Several species of hawk moths are known to visit blossoms of Datura, but two of the most common are Manduca quinquemaculata and M. sexta. The larval forms of both are better known as tomato and tobacco hornworms. so if you growing tomatoes near datura u might find those big green worms eating your tomatoes after awhile....lol.. by the way if you ever get to look at one of those worms close up do so. especially if your on an entheogen.. wink wink... they are extremely wise little creatures.... lol

matter of fact i've set and watched as those moths flew from datura to datura and then in a delirium crashed into this and that just like a human would if overdosed.

I agree with SKA to an extent though it's really hard to determine a specific dose until one works with a particular plant for a while.
Say i have a pasture full of Datura with really bad soil nutrients whereas my neighbors pasture has extremely good nutrients for one reason or another. lets say we trade seed pods and i'm use to making a tincture from 10 seeds. now since my neighbors are more potent the new tincture / tea / etc could now be equivalent to 100, 200, or who knows how many seeds. i'd be in for one hell of a suprise.

personally i don't like waking from a stupefying delirium covered in blood, devoid of all my possessions, and incarcerated for some crime i committed while in that state. therefore i moderate to an extreme. i was taught by another and through alot of patient study and experimentation found a safe level for state i wish to acquire.(took all of 3 months) Some people can do 5-10 seeds and walk away. others a hundred, and some peoples body chemistry may allow only 1-2. The safe bet is EXTREME CAUTION & MODERATION.
1-2 seeds 1st time. wait minimum 4 days then goto 2-4 seeds wait 4 days then 4-8 seeds. if u find 4 seeds from that plant achieve state u want do not continue. be smart. by the way u must wait 4 days in order to get out of your system. if u dose before that u are double dosing yourself and risk oblivion. i myself boil the seeds on occasion but prefer the traditional apache mashed root concoction combined with a few other herbs in proper proportions. yes it's like baking a cake or anything else. recipes made by wise people are preferred to those of fools. would u seriously eat a cake that an undereducated over exhuberate teenager made for if you? Or would you prefer the cake from julia chiles(in her good years)... if you know the ingredients could potentially kill u?

personally i don't take it recreationally. i use it for its entheogenic effects and dreaming. Patience isn't a virtue with Datura it's your life. Be smart find someone you would trust with your life to teach you and help you. They are far and between but they're out there. Don't just rush into Datura thinking i'm invincible because it'll prove your not.

From Wiki = The word "entheogen" is a neologism derived from two words of ancient Greek, ἔνθεος (entheos) and γενέσθαι (genesthai). The adjective entheos translates to English as "full of the god, inspired, possessed," and is the root of the English word "enthusiasm." The Greeks used it as a term of praise for poets and other artists. Genesthai means "to come into being." Thus, an entheogen is a substance that causes one to become inspired or to experience feelings of inspiration, often in a religious or "spiritual" manner.

Note: Datura has several varieties and is known around the world. A good book is the first one i owned on the subject.
bought in 1980 and written by who i consider to be one of the best ethnobotanist of our time 'Richards Evans Schultes'
- Plants of the Gods - isbn 0-89281-406-3 cowritten by albert Hoffman discoverer of LSD.
http://www.amazon.com/Plants-Gods-Sa.../dp/0892814063
One of the most interesting chapters is the last.. "Uses of Hallucinogens in Medicine" It gives a very good discription of the communing with everything experience that is often felt with entheogens. When the ego dissolves like a salt doll into the ocean. That same chapter has some really vivid and interesting images drawn by people under the influence of said entheogens. it also discusses uses for such entheogens in a psycho therapeutic setting. by the way that's me on the cover of the book and page 13 lower corner... lol just kidding......

later folks.. making dinner for the wife... i probably drop by on sat nite 9-11pm cst
stay smart, stay safe, stay alive..
May u learn from your dreams who you really are and awaken from the dream called life....

How well does it improve your dreaming? Does this allow you to lucid each night?

Good point, relying on external products to get lucid isn't a good idea either.. I'm probably going to try this plant out sooner or later nonetheless, I'm really curious to what it will do to my mind. How does it compare to salvia divinorum? And what did this plant teach you?

http://images.google.com/imgres? http://www.wingsofnature.com/photos/...g2_itemId=1750 http://research.famsi.org/botany/upl...les/datura.pdf http://www.shroomery.org/forums/show...Number/8304047 http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/jims001.htm http://ernestartist.org/AngelTrumpet01.htm http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/900...Datura-FAQ.txt http://www.ejournal.unam.mx/bot/061-01/BOT61104.pdf http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/...ls/datura.html http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ww0703.htm#Datura http://unabridged-blogowitz.blogspot...mson-weed.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura http://www.erowid.org/plants/datura/datura.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Entheogens http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/datura.html http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=DAWR2 http://books.google.com/books?ct=result&q=datura+dreams
http://2bnthewild.com/plants/H266.htm http://artsci.wustl.edu/~gjfritz/Dat...um&#37;20.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=rUn...um=6&ct=result
http://books.google.com/books?id=vxA...sult#PPA262,M1
http://www.gcrg.org/bqr/6-1/datura.htm
http://www.totse.com/en/drugs/psyche...ura174524.html

anyway heres a few of psych effects of datura

Psychological- Audio Hallucinations, non-Pseudo-Hallucinations, Excitement, Delirium, Incoherent speech, Apparent insanity. Euphoria, Disturbed Vision, Stimulation, Anxiety, Extreme Disorientation, Loss of memory, Loss of space and time, Sensitivity to light and noise, Dream States, Loss of body control, Vertigo, Astral travel to familiar places, Delirium in sleep, Hyperpyrexia, light headedness, unprevoked laughter, anxiety, Intensified dreams, Blurring of lines between theta and delta stages of sleep(dreaming and waking times), wobbling legs, Leaning of body towards ground, Invalid Depth Perception, Out-of-body experiences, Deminsional traveling, Encounters with people who aren't there(Primarily Past Friends or Relatives), Melting into objects, Becoming "One with the universe", Feelings of alientation, Intoxication, Aphrodisiac, Amnesia, Confussion, Sluggish Thinking Physical- Convulsions, High blood pressure, Dry Mouth, Dry nasal cavaties, Flushing and Redness of skin, Pupil dilation, Nausea, Headache, Vomiting, Rapid Pulse, Elevated Temperature, Coma, Dehydration, Cardiac Failure, Seizures, Mydriasis, Tachycardia, Urinary Retention, Pressure in the head

by the way heres a forum for those interested in Entheogens @ edot http://www.entheogen.com/forum/index.php
and another http://www.shroomery.org/

You're doin' it again mate. Don't double, triple post.

Anyway, Chayba, Basically it doesn't compare to Salvia. The only common thing would be the dissociation I would say. But wait for someone more experienced to answer.

Tommo, why be so critical of Diablero Brujo while he's only adding helpfull, relevant information? Information that helps keep uninformed spiritual seekers from harming themselves and others using Datura. Be gratefull.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tommo

You're doin' it again mate. Don't double, triple post.

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Yeah indeed mate, don't double triple post, you will break the forums!! LOL. :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DiableroBrujo

chayba u still here?

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Now I am.. thanks for the links, thats a lot of information on datura.. after reading all that I will probably spontanously start to have a datura trip right away=P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SKA

Tommo, why be so critical of Diablero Brujo while he's only adding helpfull, relevant information? Information that helps keep uninformed spiritual seekers from harming themselves and others using Datura. Be gratefull.

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I'm not, I know it came across that way. He has some good info. However I did ask a question before and he completely ignored it and went on his way posting these large sums of (copy + pasted?) info. That coupled with the multiple postings annoyed me.

That's okay Tommo after 43 years of life i get over things rather quickly..
As for ignoring you i didn't do it intentionally. Was trying to pull stuff from multitude of links and other saved docs i had at the time. Plus i'm married and a working fella so i sometimes click and shoot from hip... when i'm strapped for time.... I get only so many hours in the day. This week i'm free to do what i want and i'll be on here a bit more often. I generally don't participate in forums. I'm kinda a loner ie introvert (see MBTI INTP) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbti and http://similarminds.com/jung/intp.html

if you ask the question again i'll try to answer it or direct you to someone who can.. i'll be off and on today. Right now i'm researching Ayahusca http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ayah...ca_info3.shtml another entheogen used in central america.. i'm trying to make a brew similiar using texas native plant species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychonaut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_quests
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_shamanism

I just asked this.... (copy and pasted)
What are these other plants the Shamans add?
Because you said something about medicine men or shamans, I can't remember, adding certain plants to the Datura brew.
Just wondering if you knew.

Also I'm quitting cigs right now so that may be why I seem pissed over little things.

Also, I've seen that INTP thing lol I went to a forum about it.
Amazing how similar those people are to me.
There was a topic about how you could kill someone and get away with it.
That's good to see because I think about things like this, not that I'd carry it out but yeah. Guess it's just what introverts do.

EDIT: Holy cow o.0
That's me to a T.
loner, more interested in intellectual pursuits than relationships or family, wrestles with the meaninglessness of existence, likes esoteric things, disorganized, messy, likes science fiction, can be lonely, observer, private, can't describe feelings easily, detached, likes solitude, not revealing, unemotional, rule breaker, avoidant, familiar with the darkside, skeptical, acts without consulting others, does not think they are weird but others do, socially uncomfortable, abrupt, fantasy prone, does not like happy people, appreciates strangeness, frequently loses things, acts without planning, guarded, not punctual, more likely to support marijuana legalization(does anyone know why this is so?), not prone to compromise, hard to persuade, relies on mind more than on others, calm
Actually INFP is pretty spot on as well. Meh whatever.

Sorry for the off-topic

You guys should really try to rely on other sites for experiences than erowid. Erowid is terrible for experiences even though some are legit, a lot are completely fake and hard to believe. But, aside from the experience vaults, erowid is an excellent site to check out different chemicals and their effects.

The "other" plants depend on which mixture your talking about.. in the carlos castenada entry we can only guess. the natives of central and south america making ayahuasca or Yaje use a wide variety of other plants including Datura. http://www.erowid.org/plants/brugman...ugmansia.shtml

You planning on brewing up something or what? i bet in australia u have several varieties of plants that can be used to substitute if you can locate them such as acacia trees http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia http://www.erowid.org/plants/acacia/acacia.shtml http://www.erowid.org/plants/
in texas theres several acacia http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=7160 personally i like catspaw.

Myers Briggs online test http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp to determine Jungian personality type

yes erowid has at times a few negative experiences over positive. alot of them are hilarious. i was reading one the other day and nearly fell out of my chair from laughing. i've studied entheogens for nearly 25 years though not recreationally see ego death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death and psychonaut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychonaut to understand more fully.

i read others experiences to compare notes. i 've a lot of experiences from age 18-43 to compare... i'll be in & out tonight...

No no, I was talking about the Datura brew. You said they add something to counteract the negative effects.

I'm just asking coz I'm curious lol. Yeh we have a heap of things we can use in Aus. A lot of Acacias. Plus I have a secret little nursery for all my needs lol

Ah Tommo, Really? Acacia's just what I've been looking for, but with little luck here in Holland. Over there in Australia they are invasive. Say could you harvest some foliage/bark and airmail it to me?

I perform magical transformations on such plant material ^^


ANYWAYZ, back ontopic:
I'm having a pretty good dreamrecall again lately, after a REALLY long dryspell/nonexistant dreamrecall. So I think I'll give Datura another try tonight.

I will eat 3 seeds right before bedtime and wash it away with some Tea.

Sure, I could send you some. I'll have to see if I can identify it 100% for you though. I'll be able to get around to all that probably tomorrow or the day after. So I'll PM you after that.

you really in Holland SKA?.. Lucky Devil you.... lol

Holland http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v12n2/12239hus.pdf I think I go back to school after reading that and major in what field sounds fun... lol

funny business in holland http://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/defau...g=posts&t=1555

By the way SKA u ever hear of Seior? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seid_(shamanic_magic)
It has been suggested that during seances the sei&#240;kona would enter a state of trance in which her soul was supposed to "become discorporeal", "take the likeness of an animal", "travel through space", and so on. This state of trance may have been achieved through any of several methods: entheogens, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, for instance. To galdra, that is, the chanting of galdrar was also involved in creating the state of trance.

From following one of those links I found they are banning smoking in Holland? Or already have?
It's funny "It's a bit like saying to someone you can go into a cafe and you can buy a beer, but you can't drink it there - you'll have to stick to whisky, rum and vodka," said Paul Wilhelm, owner of De Tweede Kamer
"It's absurd. In other countries they look to see whether you have marijuana in your cigarette, here they'll look to see if you've got cigarette in your marijuana."

Luckily, being the creative, tolerant people that they are, they just use other herbs now and some shops set up smoking rooms if you've got tobacco in your joint. Very good.

They've banned smoking in public indoor places. However I haven't come across a coffeeshop in which they don't allow smoking yet. So I'm still smoking joints, drawing in my blackbook and getting skyhigh in coffeeshops.

They've recently banned the Magic Mushroom here though. At least the public sale of them. People who grow mushrooms for personal use won't be prosecuted.

How come they decided to do that? Ban mushrooms.

I'll take massive amounts of shrooms or LSD any day, but Datura scares the crap out of me. Not because of it the trip it produces, but because of it's toxicity. In my opinion, it's not worth it. Plus the high can last 48 hours!

Unlike most drugs that fit certain receptors in your brain, which triggers the release your body's natural highs, datura goes to work directly on your nervous system. You just know that can't be good!

Here's an old news clip I saw on TV years ago. Just retarded how they show every kid in america how to get high from common ditch weeds. You have to see how messed up those kids are halfway through the clip. (That same week I saw another news report that showed how to steal a certain make of car)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u12SZAyMp54

My advice is if you're even considering doing Datura, just find yourself some DMT instead. It's even more abundant in the ditches than Datura is. Not that I'm trying to endorse people doing DMT, it's just that I really don't think people should be messing around with the Deadly Nightshade family.

Also called Belladonna, because women would use it to give themselves dialated pupils, which was considered a sign or arousal and done make themselves more attractive. The things women do to make themselves pretty...

I also read somewhere that it had something to do with the origins of the witch's broomstick. They would put it on, a broom stick I guess, and get it into their systems vaginally. And that's how the stereotype of witches riding broomsticks was born. I'm not kidding, I seriously read that somewhere.

Datura can be absorbed through the skin easily, when mixed with something greasy.

I'd never even heard of this plant- wow what rock have I been living under? I thought it a little hypocritical when some one said that certain drugs were stupid or people were a waste for taking them - (that isn't a direct quote of course) but then are okaying the use of something else mind altering. I've been down the road of using things to "alter my perception of reality" or "to see more clearly" while it was a lot of fun at times I'm not sure there was anything genuine to the experience such as actually becoming more enlightened. I don't believe that I was anything more than messed up on what ever it was that I was taking and I've done hallucinatory substances. I'm not condemning those who wish to do this but I'm not condoning it either. I have watched my life and the lives of people I care about disintegrate because their urge to lose contact with reality became stronger than their urge to live in the moment and take care of themselves and their families. Basically I was just saying that I thought is is weird to say: "well that drug over there that's just wrong and stupid and your going to screw yourself up with that! But this one here that I'm taking it's cool and it's natural and it's okay because I know what I'm doing." Thousands of people that "know what they are doing" die or fry their braincells everyday because in reality we don't know for sure how any chemical will react inside of us until we take it and then it's a gamble that we hopefully come out on top of. I think it is a 50/50 chance every time you take something foreign and chemical whether it is natural or not for what ever reason that it's going to be safe. Not unless your a chemist who can see the breakdown of every single part of that drug and have done controlled testing or something. I just feel they are more dangerous than helpful when it comes to recreation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shannyball

I'd never even heard of this plant- wow what rock have I been living under? I thought it a little hypocritical when some one said that certain drugs were stupid or people were a waste for taking them - (that isn't a direct quote of course) but then are okaying the use of something else mind altering. I've been down the road of using things to "alter my perception of reality" or "to see more clearly" while it was a lot of fun at times I'm not sure there was anything genuine to the experience such as actually becoming more enlightened. I don't believe that I was anything more than messed up on what ever it was that I was taking and I've done hallucinatory substances. I'm not condemning those who wish to do this but I'm not condoning it either. I have watched my life and the lives of people I care about disintegrate because their urge to lose contact with reality became stronger than their urge to live in the moment and take care of themselves and their families. Basically I was just saying that I thought is is weird to say: "well that drug over there that's just wrong and stupid and your going to screw yourself up with that! But this one here that I'm taking it's cool and it's natural and it's okay because I know what I'm doing." Thousands of people that "know what they are doing" die or fry their braincells everyday because in reality we don't know for sure how any chemical will react inside of us until we take it and then it's a gamble that we hopefully come out on top of. I think it is a 50/50 chance every time you take something foreign and chemical whether it is natural or not for what ever reason that it's going to be safe. Not unless your a chemist who can see the breakdown of every single part of that drug and have done controlled testing or something. I just feel they are more dangerous than helpful when it comes to recreation.

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Your view of this is so black and white. You say you find it backwards if someone says "this drug here will fuck you up, but this one here will enlighten you and do you good", but that is only so because you lump all drugs together, generalise them and then label them alltogether with your judgement of "substances that fuck you up". Because actually that is exactly the truth: Some drugs are toxic, some are not, some are highly toxic, others are lowly toxic, some are addictive some are not. And yes: Some will only help fucking you up, mind & body, while others enrich you spiritually and strengthen you physically. Peyote gives spiritual insight, while at the same time killing all parasites in you, cleansing your Body. The Same goes for Ayahuasca.
I personally HAVE gotten alot of therapeutical insights from psychedelic experiences, most notably Psilocybe Mushrooms and LSD. If you haven't then that is your personal experience. Be carefull with making judgements and don't assume your personal experience is standard for everyone.
Also there are alot of medical facts known about drugs such as LSD and Psilocybin(mushrooms). There is data available concerning toxicity and it is well known scientific fact that LSD, Psilocybin, DMT, Salvia, Cannabis and most other Psychedelics are all less toxic than a Cup of coffee. So if you DARE drink a cup of coffee, but say you find psychedelics harmfull and ashaming, then your judgement is clearly irrational.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

I'll take massive amounts of shrooms or LSD any day, but Datura scares the crap out of me. Not because of it the trip it produces, but because of it's toxicity. In my opinion, it's not worth it. Plus the high can last 48 hours!

Unlike most drugs that fit certain receptors in your brain, which triggers the release your body's natural highs, datura goes to work directly on your nervous system. You just know that can't be good!

Here's an old news clip I saw on TV years ago. Just retarded how they show every kid in america how to get high from common ditch weeds. You have to see how messed up those kids are halfway through the clip. (That same week I saw another news report that showed how to steal a certain make of car)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u12SZAyMp54

My advice is if you're even considering doing Datura, just find yourself some DMT instead. It's even more abundant in the ditches than Datura is. Not that I'm trying to endorse people doing DMT, it's just that I really don't think people should be messing around with the Deadly Nightshade family.

Also called Belladonna, because women would use it to give themselves dialated pupils, which was considered a sign or arousal and done make themselves more attractive. The things women do to make themselves pretty...

I also read somewhere that it had something to do with the origins of the witch's broomstick. They would put it on, a broom stick I guess, and get it into their systems vaginally. And that's how the stereotype of witches riding broomsticks was born. I'm not kidding, I seriously read that somewhere.

Datura can be absorbed through the skin easily, when mixed with something greasy.

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Yeah that's how witches flew to the Sabbath meeting. They would make a Datura ointment, smear it on the end of a broomstick and insert it vaginally, where the mucus membrane would absorb the alkaloids really fast. To the physical eye the witches coud be seen quietly lying in bed or in a chair, while their spirits were searing through the skies traveling to the Sabbath meeting/communion.

Datura is nothing to fuck with.

And I will repeat this caution till the end of times:
IF anyone intends to ingest Datura for Dream enhancing purposes, Take the seeds and never take more than 5, as 15 seeds is the lowest dose I've read about that still was able to produce a very nasty, fullblown delirium. Recommended is 2 to 5 seeds before sleep, allthough I have found 3 seeds to already give a noticable "altered" sensation. Nothing more than a strange sensation, no trip, no hallucinations....But never eat more than 5 seeds.

I'd like to say that I am sorry for frustrating anyone, but I am not sorry for saying that I think ingesting chemicals to trip is safe either. I am only sharing what I know and my standard only is for myself -I quote myself -"I'm not condemning those who wish to do this but I'm not condoning it either." It is only my personal feelings that this can be a dangerous way to search for deeper spirituality. Why do you feel that you must fight to change my mind? Or charge me that I find these things shameful? Harmful - yes they could be, not mushrooms though some may be I have never found them to be but this one substance that started this whole topic -"Datura" it seems not a worthwhile risk to take. I am not ashamed, I have experimented in the past and I am ashamed of nothing I saw that some of it was fun and interesting and some of it was devastating how can I be ashamed of what I have learned from. I am not. You seem very angry and defensive we do not have to agree, my point isn't in making anything look bad- I want people to be careful and consider first what may happen before they decide to take a substance to induce some sort of experience. I think what really bothered me was that the names of substances and amounts that should be taken and doses are being discussed openly. When very young people who might not think things through could take what is said for total factual information and do it because they saw it on here. I find that dangerous and worrisome because we are all supposed to be adults and I am not one for censoring I just was a little shocked. I saw post after post of how to do it, what it's called, practically a handbook. I am done, I am sorry if offended those who choose to practice this and I guess I shouldn't have kept reading when I felt funny about it.

Terrance Mckenna once commented that if you do less than 5 grams of shrooms your missing the point. The idea being that what prevents ego death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death is not taking the full ride. I've been there and agree. It's only scary to the ego. That thing that refuses to let go. That part that thinks all the time and comments on EVERYTHING and basically never shuts up. That part that lets fear conquer and destroy. It's that idea of who you think u are. It's who society thinks you "should" be and you eventually become hypnotized to believe is the real you. It's the you of habits and traits some of which no longer help you but hinder you in your lifes purpose whatever that may be. If you don't go all the way into the void u never reach it (The journey demands resolve. A determination to conquer your fear else be conquered by it. Willingness to trust in the intelligence of the universe)
You won't physically die though metaphorically u will (great changes will emerge in your psyche, your perspective and outlook on life, you'll see the world anew as though a childs eyes. Unless one becomes as these children one will not see Heaven.. If u try to control the fear and refuse to surrender to the experience then when u come back from whatever minor journey u took you won't have changed; ie metamorphed from a caterpillar to a butterfly. You must be crucified and reborn in the image of the Eternal Logos. Or as shamans say "You must die the little death from which no other deaths follow."

The idea as well is not to do it entheogens everyday. Hell i haven't done entheogens to seek that GOD for a long while.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen An entheogen ("God inside us"),, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious or shamanic context. EGO fights like hell to remain the same but the idea is to take the hero journey ie monomyth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth Also when taking this trip your not hanging out with friends and going places. You basically want to lock yourself in a safe place and turn off all external distractions. ie TV, radio, clocks, etc. You wanna close your eyes and go inside. Inside is where the journey lies not out in the normal world. You basically enter that world you normally goto in dream but this time your fully awake. You will have to conquer your fear. Be confident that many thousands have gone before you on this journey and be rest assured that you like them will survive and emerge a better you. Every ritual in life confers growth whether it's walking across a stage with a diploma or getting married. the old self(ego) must die.. old ways of thinking. old ways of acting will not suit us in this new world to which we embark. when i became a man I put away the ways of childhood. When i got married i put away the ways of the single life. We all change and grow. To refuse the call to change confers agony and suffering. Taxes are not guaranteed, nor is prison, happiness, poverty or wealth.. The only thing guaranteed in life is change. You can choose to accept it and flow with it else be ran down by it. The choosen is yours....

DH Lawrence said it best - Are you willing to be sponged out, erased, cancelled, made nothing? Are you willing to be made nothing?
Dipped into oblivion? If not, you will never really change.......

You don't even need drugs to do the journey. You can sacrifice the EGO in a dream and emerge in the same manner. Next time you get attacked in a dream. Rather than fight (that's your EGO response) surrender yourself to assailant with joy in your heart. Know that in being torn apart it is but your dream body. A creation of mind & EGO. I guarantee if you do this and allow yourself to be torn asunder soon afterwards all kinds of helpers & healers will arrive in dream to reconstruct you a new body for the new life you embrace. If you fully surrender and allow this you'll die to your old thought pattern ways and be reborn anew. guarantee you won't see the world as a dead wasteland thereafter. You'll see the Eternal light of creation everywhere in all creatures of mother earth.

Think u can or think u can't ... either way your right... - Henry ford
Do you seriously think you will see the Gates of the Eternal Paradise without first passing through the Deserts of hell... Old Sufi saying

Would you suggest a breakthrough dose for a first timer?

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Originally Posted by shannyball

I think what really bothered me was that the names of substances and amounts that should be taken and doses are being discussed openly. When very young people who might not think things through could take what is said for total factual information and do it because they saw it on here. I find that dangerous and worrisome because we are all supposed to be adults and I am not one for censoring I just was a little shocked. I saw post after post of how to do it, what it's called, practically a handbook. I am done, I am sorry if offended those who choose to practice this and I guess I shouldn't have kept reading when I felt funny about it.

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This is much safer then them finding out about it from the news or something, saying, really? that plant in my yard makes you hallucinate? Sahweet!
Also you have to be 15 to go on these forums. Which means you should have some sort of intelligence. If not, they die for the sake of evolution. Good riddance.
Also you didn't offend anyone, it's just that we don't want shit being spread similar to government propaganda. 50/50 chance? cummon man.

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Originally Posted by shannyball

I'd like to say that I am sorry for frustrating anyone, but I am not sorry for saying that I think ingesting chemicals to trip is safe either. I am only sharing what I know and my standard only is for myself -I quote myself -"I'm not condemning those who wish to do this but I'm not condoning it either." It is only my personal feelings that this can be a dangerous way to search for deeper spirituality. Why do you feel that you must fight to change my mind? Or charge me that I find these things shameful? Harmful - yes they could be, not mushrooms though some may be I have never found them to be but this one substance that started this whole topic -"Datura" it seems not a worthwhile risk to take. I am not ashamed, I have experimented in the past and I am ashamed of nothing I saw that some of it was fun and interesting and some of it was devastating how can I be ashamed of what I have learned from. I am not. You seem very angry and defensive we do not have to agree, my point isn't in making anything look bad- I want people to be careful and consider first what may happen before they decide to take a substance to induce some sort of experience. I think what really bothered me was that the names of substances and amounts that should be taken and doses are being discussed openly. When very young people who might not think things through could take what is said for total factual information and do it because they saw it on here. I find that dangerous and worrisome because we are all supposed to be adults and I am not one for censoring I just was a little shocked. I saw post after post of how to do it, what it's called, practically a handbook. I am done, I am sorry if offended those who choose to practice this and I guess I shouldn't have kept reading when I felt funny about it.

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Had you read my previous posts in this topic, you would have surely noticed how strongly I discouraged "spiritual use" of Datura due to it's extreme dangers both mentally and physically. I stressed this warning extremely; Ask Tommo ;) Datura is not a Psychedelic, it is a Deliriant. And Deliriants are allways bad news.

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Originally Posted by shannyball

I thought it a little hypocritical when some one said that certain drugs were stupid or people were a waste for taking them - (that isn't a direct quote of course) but then are okaying the use of something else mind altering.

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And I have a different point of view on this entirely. And I'm cool with disagreeing, but isn't this a Discussion board? To discuss things such as different points of view?

I'm just saying that although altering perception using Psychedelics hasn't brought you any genuine insights, doesn't mean that Psychedelic experiences are just ghost images, sensations and ideas. Maybe for you they were just fun and not spiritually significant, for me and many other's they certainly were.

Yes there are drugs that can benefit you, unless off course you abuse them like an ignorant fool. LSD, DMT, Psilocybin Mushrooms and Mescaline cacti are no partydrugs, but in general the people that take them are not your average "let's get fucked up"-teens if you know what I mean. I would even go as far as saying having psychedelic healing/divination communions and bringing back LSD and other psychedelics in guided psychotherapy and Addiction withdrawal therapies would be a massive improvement on human psychological health and stimulate a more social, loving and tolerant populace.

Don't tell people that using Psychedelics, specifically those I mentioned, are "dangerious ways of spiritual seeking", cause this just ain't true.
It's just like telling people Code&#239;ne painkillers and Coffee are exTREMELY dangerious substances; they can kill if used in such an irrisponsible manner I find hard to imagine, yes Coffee and Code&#239;ne, but to say they are risky substances is quite frankly not true.

Psychedelic is a word made by adding 2 greek words together:
Psyche (Mind) Delos(Manifest) and this describes exactly the defenition of Psychedelics' effects, so if one has a Bad trip this is simply a reflection of one's own bad Mindstate at the time of ingesting a psychedelic.

I had a VERY very bad trip the frist time I ate Psilocybin mushrooms (far too many and in a crowded enviroment) and this frightening experience has been most insightfull and therapeutical to me. BECAUSE I was able to see into my own nature and discover the sores and nasty spots of my Psyche at that time. Only those sores/errors that you become aware of can be healed, so by seeing into my own, at the time troubled and hurt, nature I was able to correct/heal what was wrong/hurt inside of me.

I clearly don't take psychedelics to "have a good time", because I see them as powerfull tools for looking into one's own nature in a unique way. A kind of insight that reveals to me what part of me needs healing/special attention.

Have you ever had a bad trip shannyball?



and could we get back ontopic? >>> Datura as a Dream Enhancer, 3 seeds eaten just before going to sleep.

Datura is a strange creature.

I'll be the first to admit that SKA is correct in that if you use Datura a couple of seeds is prudent. More than that you risk more than you can imagine. I have indepth experience of Entheogens stretching back to 1980 and there's no way on this green earth i'd take more than 3-5 at a time over a 72 hour period. remember that... 72 hours ie 3 days for plant chemicals to process out. that should be sufficent to get dream state started. actually i think other suppliments are better for beginners. ie melatonin and natural plants at this site are a good start http://psychoactiveherbs.com/catalog...7530b856632c56

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calea_zacatechichi
Calea zacatechichi, also known as Dream Herb, Cheech, and Bitter Grass, is a plant used by the indigenous Chontal of the Mexican state of Oaxaca for oneiromancy (a form of divination based on dreams.) The plant naturally occurs from southern Mexico to northern Costa Rica. It has been scientifically demonstrated that extracts of this plant increase reaction times and the frequency and/or recollection of dreams[1] versus placebo and diazepam. It is also employed by the Chontal people as a medicinal herb against gastrointestinal disorders, and is used as an appetizer, cathartic anti-dysentery remedy, and as a fever-reducing agent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silene_capensis
Silene capensis (syn. Silene undulata) (also known as African Dream Root) is a plant native to the Eastern Cape of South Africa, where is regarded by the Xhosa people as a sacred plant. Its root is traditionally used to induce vivid (and according to the Xhosa, prophetic) lucid dreams during the initiation process of shamans, classifying it a naturally-occurring oneirogen similar to the more well-known dream herb Calea zacatechichi.

In Cultivation it is an easily grown but moisture hungry herb, but tolerant of extreme heat (+40C) and moderate cold (-5C). A moisture retentive seedbed is essential. It acts a biennial to short lived perrennial and the root can be harvested after the second year

Okay 50/50 chance is a little ridiculous you are right. I will not deny that in the right hands, in the right time and place that certain substances might be used to gain some spiritual insite. But if you don't know what you are doing that is dangerous that is all I am trying to say.

Nope - no bad trips, I actually very much enjoyed mushrooms when I used to do them. It was a very artistic high as I remember. lol

I recently experimented with shrooms and dreaming. As far as I can tell, they don't mix. As I got closer to sleep, the mushrooms ceased to have any effect, and it wasn't until I roused myself mentally that they kicked in again.

I tried a few times, and it didn't seem to have any effect on my dreams at all. Just seemed to stop working as I got close to falling asleep.

So if anyone is hoping shrooms with help with LDing, don't bother.

Datura isn't so much of an LD-inducing drug as it is a trainwreck hallucinogen. You'll see shit, but you won't be in much control of it and it will be horribly unpleasant and you'll be accompanied by a lot of nausea. Coleus/calea on the other hand, is a much milder hallucinogen which induces extremely vivid dreams which are nearly always lucid. Coleus is also nearly harmless, and the only side affect is very very slight nausea which is only from eating a very large amount of fibrous plant matter, not from toxicity.

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Originally Posted by SKA

Yeah that's how witches flew to the Sabbath meeting. They would make a Datura ointment, smear it on the end of a broomstick and insert it vaginally, where the mucus membrane would absorb the alkaloids really fast. To the physical eye the witches coud be seen quietly lying in bed or in a chair, while their spirits were searing through the skies traveling to the Sabbath meeting/communion.

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I've always been interested in the subject of witches, they were like the european shamans right? Where did you read about this? All I know is about the witch burning, but the stories about toads and mushrooms all start to make sense now :P

Well I'm glad we're all on par here.
Cusp, you shouldn't say such a blanket statement like that. I believe SKA has some experience with Shrooms and dreams. If I remember correctly he said one small one is what he usually takes.

Anyway so since we're all (?) kinda getting on the same boat here finally, we can discuss this Datura and dreaming properly.

Someone else start, lol

Datura is to dangerous for other than trained persons to handle and even then they are taking a chance. IF you've had less than 3-4 years dealing with entheogenic compounds ie LSD, Mescaline(peyote/san pedro cactus), psiloscybe, psilocybin, salvia divinorum, etc.. I wouldn't suggest u mess with it. Could be last time you u mess with anything... It could make u insane, or kill yourself accidently ie run out into traffic and get run over by a bus or out of a window thinking theres a walkway there etc... There are numerous ways to die on Datura..Because you actually can't distinguish between fact / fictions,. It might just shut down certain parts of your nervous system say like your heart. Hell most medicine people I know are afraid to touch it and I know why. In just touching it you can get the compounds on your hands / arms etc and then it'll absorb into bloodstream. Nothing like walking through the woods to grandmas house and on way rubbing against a Datura.. Next thing you know your not in Kansas much less on this planet... lol
Native healers classify plants into 3 groups. Healing, Visionary, & Poisons. Datura is in poison catagory. Matter of fact Brujos or witches use it to cause madness or death to deserving enemies. Brujos make a paste of plant parts & smear on object enemy likely to handle.

Datura belongs to classic "witches' weeds," along with deadly nightshade, henbane, and mandrake. Most parts of the plants contain toxic hallucinogens, and Datura has a long history of use for causing delirious states and death. It was well known as an essential ingredient of love potions and witches' brews.

Common names include Thorn Apple (from the spiny fruit), Pricklyburr (similarly), Jimson Weed, Moonflower, Hell's Bells, Devil's Weed, Devil's Cucumber, and Devil's Trumpet, (from their large trumpet-shaped flowers). Nathaniel Hawthorne refers to one type in The Scarlet Letter as Apple-Peru. The word datura comes from the Hindi Dhatūrā (thorn apple); record of this name dates back to 1662 (OED). In Tamil it is called as "oomathai" Where i'm from it's called "TORNADO LOCO". notice LOCO part of that. ie make u go insane. Insane is not the same as psychedelic altered state of consciousness. . at least not from my experience...

The nightshade family is an extremely dangerous class of plants to work with. They can kill u in infinite ways. In small doses effects are minor, with increasing amounts the effects like all things become more pronounced. At some point it'll run away with u rather than the other way around. The problem is in finding the proper dosage. This is because it's a plant and at various stages of it's growth cycle the active ingredients are less or more pronounced. Also important is what part of plant you consume. Roots, stems, leaves, flowers, etc.. Generally the active compounds are not found in equal proportion in all parts of plant. I suggest a visit to Erowid and other sites to get an idea of percentages of active compounds in each part.

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Originally Posted by ShamanicMystic

Nothing like walking through the woods to grandmas house and on way rubbing against a Datura.. Next thing you know your not in Kansas much less on this planet... lol

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This simply wouldn't happen unless you rubbed the flower all over your body.

I was just wondering, does anyone know if ALL nightshade spp. have these alkaloids, even in small amounts?
i.e Tomatoes, Potatoes, Tobacco, that prickly one which is just called 'deadly nightshade' etc.

me and many of my friends have been "playing"/experimenting with datura for quite some time, my first trip was about 15 years ago.... since my first time i usually took the way of 'over-dose', that is take an amount that will put you in a place where you have no control over the trip, talking to people that arent there, playing out senarios that arent real, saying things that make no sence, etc. etc..... the reason is that if you dont get over the 'threshold' you feel like total shit for the rest of the day or longer, i mean bad news... unless you take the minute dose before bed route...ive eaten several whole seed pods at a time, in tea or raw...(i prefere tea)... because its the most potent part of the plant, but have tried every other part as well... smoking the leaf for example is nice and mellow and can impart a more visual experience and is good for asthma....

we usually have baby sitters because most people black out, and if someone writes down what you do and say, not only will it be hillarious, but it usually jogs the memory... (for some reason i dont fully black out at all) or you may hurt yourself, ie. woody tried to drink gasoline, and amy wanted to drive, tom did a strip tease in front of a friends parents...
everyone who does it says "im never doing that shit again", but some of us are drawn back to it for some dumb reason, ernie more than anyone i know which may be the cause of his bad eyesight.... a couple people have had 'bad' nightmarish or paranoiac trips, but in hindsight it was predictable and could have been avoided... most people are some where else, but having a relatively good time where ever it is that they are... amy rearanges leaves on the forest floor for example... critter has had the most fun ive ever seen anyone have on this plant (he usually has many varieties growing at his house) he spent the day on his knees laughing his fool head off... in the morning he ran/hobbled to the out house, he came back shaking his head... "i felt the diarrhea in my pants, felt it running down my legs, felt it in my shoe... but when i got to the shitter, there was nothing there"....drift thought he had hallucinated the joint we passed him and lost it in the couch...

i have yet to try the ointment of which there's the one 'recipe' at erowid, but have heard bits of folklore like the symbolism of 'witches' 'riding the broom stick' apparently slathered with such a concoction, perhaps including muscarine mushrooms.... but have full intention of doing so soon....(not in the winter in MN however... out door stuff... and not with a broomstick)

oh yes, there have been instances where friends have gone to the hospital, but we do not know wheather they had really fucking over-dosed or weather they scaired the shit out of unsuspecting friends and relatives or was a niusance to the authorities...the hospital always tells you that you almost died no matter what you o.d. on.... jail has been an option as well....

Serveral seedpods at a time?
Congratulations, Lots, for surviving something that could have EASILY killed you.

After reading this I was surprised to see no mention of hanging the extremely fragrant sometimes pungent flowers of either Datura or the closely related Brugmansia over the head while sleeping. I remember seeing this method referenced somewhere as a traditional method of use but cannot locate the source (anyone?). I have no qualms against the ingestion of baneful herbs am fairly well-versed in their dangers and somewhat annoyed at the endless warnings from people with no relationship with the plants, but have not been feeling confident and acquainted enough myself to directly ingest it. I am growing several Daturas and Brugmansias which will soon be in bloom and will try this in due time. Maybe the 2-5 seeds will follow in the future with luck and seeding. I've always felt somewhat intoxicated by the mere fragrance of the flowers which emit a potent smell that seemed to change between peanut butter, rotting flesh, and lemon depending on the time of night and moon. I have known several people who have obtained strange dreams, oddly enough having a consistent subject of strange reptilian organisms, by the suspending of fresh flowers above the head while sleeping. The drawback to this is that robbing the plant of fresh flowers does not allow it to produce seed, so prudence is recommended. I welcome anyone who is up for hanging a bouquet of fresh Solanacae blossoms above their heads reports of subsequent experiences or lack there of.

The reason people warned who haven't taken it is because we have read about it extensively. Others have taken it and say the same. So I really don't see what your problem is with that.
The flower hanging sounds alright. BUT, if they fall down you would probably OD in your sleep. I have heard of this lady who had the tree outside her bedroom window and the wind blowing the chemicals in made her hallucinate. So hanging above your head might work. But yeah, I would probably be to worried about it falling to go to sleep. Maybe just setting it in your room somewhere might work. But still, SKA's 1-3 seeds sounds more efficient and safe.

Off topic much?

I've been experimenting with brugmansia and it's effect on dreams for the past week. I have two plants of it growing in my backyard. So far I've tried it three times, I take about 1-2 square inches of a flower about 1-2 hours before bed. Taking it an hour or two before going to sleep seems to work better than taking right before.
I've been neglecting my dream journal for awhile, so my recall is less than perfect. All three nights I took the brug flower, my recall was much better. I remembered several hours of dreams, I couldn't even write them all down. Two of those nights I had a lucid dream. My dreams were more vivid and it helped me realize I was sleeping.

I want to try hanging a few flowers over my head while I sleep. Sounds interesting. I wouldn't be too worried about OD'ing from a flower or two falling on my head while I sleep. I mean, unless I eat them in my sleep, I should be alright. I ate a whole flower once, I was curious... (yeah, curiosity killed the cat, but fortunately, I am not a cat) I felt weird all day and had a few minor hallucinations but I didn't OD or freak out like most other people. It should be safe to hang a few flowers on my ceiling. I'm going to wait a few days first because I've taken small amounts every other night for the past 6 days. I need to let it clear out of my system before I take anymore. I'll be sure to report what happens here when I do it though.

I think Brugs might be more forgiving than Datura from what I've gathered and certainly not too far off topic which may be for better or worse depending on the user. Their blossoms smell much more lemony and aromatic than Datura which I've always thought smelt like peanut butter at times. The flowers falling on the head could easily be avoided by positioning them slightly below or above the head. You could always just take a nap under a blossoming tree on a hot summer night if one is accessible. Another off topic nightshade related dream possibility with similar chemistry and lesser toxicity might be Henbane if anybody has experience with that. Henbane in some occult traditions is used as incense and never ingested directly. Datura might be able to function in a similar manner. The three seeds method seems fairly efficient and risk free, I will try when the plants are seeding.

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Originally Posted by blahaha

Off topic much?

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What? who and what was off-topic?

True you might not eat them but inhaling it all night could cause an OD.
Incense sounds alright. Or maybe one of those oil-burners? I noticed when I left the flowers in a plastic bag they turned into lack tar kind of liquid. Could put a small amount of that in there with some water....

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Originally Posted by tommo

What? who and what was off-topic?

True you might not eat them but inhaling it all night could cause an OD.
Incense sounds alright. Or maybe one of those oil-burners? I noticed when I left the flowers in a plastic bag they turned into lack tar kind of liquid. Could put a small amount of that in there with some water....

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It was getting off topic because this was supposed to be about datura and dreams, and it seemed like a lot of people were fighting about how dangerous this is and stuff. I'm sure if anyone knows what datura is, they probably know it's dangers too.

a couple of years back I tried putting a datura flower in a glass of water next to my bed. that night I had intensely graphic nightmares about being chased down a long corridor by a montrous being. the dream lasted a long time. I never did it again.

I was told that the problem was that I drank wine that same evening. Actually I've been thinking of doing it again, now that I am doing alot of dreamwork.

If you have a fresh flower, try just putting it at your bedside. Kind of a test run before drinking teas of it.

Where I live (South America) I know of some extremely unfortunate cases of people that had lasting affects from incorrect use of datura. Permanent paranoia, in one case, in another, a man tripping wildly putting his arms under a market meat cutter's machine and losing both of them.


When people here say to be careful, they MEAN it!

Perhaps 3 seeds of Datura Inoxia should be combined with other oneirogens to make for more dramatic dream enhancement.
How would 3 D. Inoxia seeds combined with a low dose of sublingually/buccally administered Salvia extract affect dreams?

Guess I should get some Salvia extract to try this out.

Smoking brugmansia flowers seems to bring on a nice subtle drowsiness with a remote hint of delirium as a friend of a friend accounts:

"Don't think sleep happened in time to judge the dreams though. Got a nice eeg reading during the whole thing, the alphas seemed to peak pretty readily while meditating etc. At some point there was a weird spike really heavily on one of the waves, not quite sure which one as a friend was reading the meter. It was my first go with eeg so I don't have anything to compare it to but maybe I will repeat the experiment and have more data to compare it to soon.

Most of the alkaloids burn off, so I would say its a fairly safe way to go. Nice sweet flowery taste to. Sort of like lemon nectar. I would be pretty careful since the alkaloid content can vary so much and start with a puff and work upwards from there and if you go higher than a whole flower might want to be extremely careful. Leaves are a totally different animal I have yet to accumulate any trustworthy information on them."

shannyball read your own quote in your sig.

other than that all i have to say is damn and also that SKA and all other expierience searchers, what is your state of physicall being in terms of healthiness, just because i want to do all these things(probably not datura for a long time) and am just wondering to all of you still work out n stuff it just seems like this would take alot out of you and i still want to be able to do sports and workout alot

idk kinda random but it just occured to me to ask this, no offence toward any of you, but SKA you did post about you doing this stuff like a bunch of nights in a given week.

I think it could certainly take a lot physically out of you if used and frequency and high doses as could anything. If you experience nightmares that may translate into physical taxation.

Some say Datura excites the desire for power and flatters, which may or may not translate into the physical arena, but is sort of understandable when translated into the more nebulous shamanistic/occult paradigms that have historically been in cahoots with the plant.

Carlos Castaneda certainly talks about it exciting physical power, but the greater portion are likely to dismiss him as a load of crap.

I think the main thing you need to worry about buddy is the degree of faith you have in your sports-playing and your will to keep going with it. I don't think you'll eat some seeds and wake up as a lazy lethargic dope fiend tomorrow. But datura is pretty unpredictable and everybody responds differently so certainty is sort of out the door for you.. any ecstatic/traumatic experience has the tremendous potential to change an individual in serious ways.
Maybe try not to plan much for the day after and start low gradually increasing amounts with intervals of a week or so in between until you build to a noticeable amount in sleep or waking. If you want to play it safe, be sure that the plant material(seeds, leaves, roots, flowers) is from the same plant (well not completely necessary), location, and season. The alkaloid content in the plant fluctuates a good deal and an amount from one plant that was too low to be effective could kill you in another, hence it is a good idea to start very low. A standardized extract is always a safe scientific route, if you have experience in that arena...

A safe and precise way to dose Datura would be to take a safe dose of seeds, between 3 and 5 Datura Inoxia seeds, and extract the alkaloids from that.

If the alkaloids are solved in a solvent and filtered clean of seed pulp then the alkaloid containing solvent can be mixed with a small amount of a skin lotion that get's easily absorbed by the skin. Perhaps a certain amount of Salvia Divinorum extract could be added to this Oneirogenic Datura lotion, allthough I don't know if Salvia's alkaloids will be absorbed through the skin.

A lotion like this could be put on a bandaid that is sticked on a well circulated area of the body(Lower belly, Inside of thighs near groing, near armpits, neck, throat, kneepits) right before sleep. Preferably a small, somewhat comfortable, but very sticky bandaid.
If it's too uncomfortable to sleep with you can cut off the bandaid's sticky parts so that only the white "cushion" remains. Rub the Oneirogenic lotion into the white cushion, stick it on your skin in a well circulated area and keep it in place by wrapping some layers of bandage around it. This would also isolate body heat near the area of the transdermal oneirogenic patch so it opens the skin's pores and makes it sweat. This would make the alkaloid lotion mix with the sweat and enter through the open pores.

If you would put such a transdermal patch on your skin just before you go to bed, the alkaloids would be ingested very slowly and gradually throughout the entire night. The alkaloids would be active WHILE you are dreaming.

Odd, I had a dream last night where I found a datura plant pod and ate the seeds and became lucid. Dont remember much after that, though..

I have been researching things of the sort recently, but Dature seems like an insane trip, one that has detramental effects and bad trips. Im more concerned about DMT and wanting to use that.

I wouldn't touch jimson weed. I've experienced it, and so have my friends, and sir it's not a good high and no I did not have a LD. Just from one pod, while my friends did 2 to 3.

Your pupils go near the size of your colored ring around your pupils, so your eye is nearly all black in the middle. You can barely see, and half the time something happens then you look back and it's been 10-20 minutes that you don't remember at all. It's almost scarey, and yes the normal dosage and the lethal dosage are close, too close.

It's poisonious, just depends on how much of the venime your body can hold.

Oh, and did I mention that you can't see anything clearly for like half a week?

it's a very dangerous plant....can kill you or make you go blind...at least temporarily...tried it several times long ago...i don't think lucidity is one of it's properties...my conclusion was that it produces dreaming while you are awake....without the lucidity...you will experience the weirdest-ass things and they seem perfectly normal...and this is all happening while you are sitting at the kitchen table wondering if anything is going to happen....i also came to the conclusion that, unlike other psychopharmacological substances, it will steal your soul....you will never even know it...dangerous stuff...i'd avoid it...

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Originally Posted by SKA

A safe and precise way to dose Datura would be to take a safe dose of seeds, between 3 and 5 Datura Inoxia seeds, and extract the alkaloids from that.

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I think the point of doing a standardized extract would be so you could get predictable repeatability. Therefore for the amount of seeds, I would recommend the seeds being in the 100's rather than the amount of 1 dose. The ratio of seeds to fluid should be taken into account when dosing. Obviously you wouldn't want a concentration in which a drop or two could do you in or something difficult to measure but you also would want an amount that only allows for 1 or two doses since that would defeat the point of an extraction. The first dose is still dangerous and unpredictable so it is still necessary to start unnoticeably low and venture upward.

I would still say smoking bits and pieces is the safest introduction.

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Originally Posted by Barry Howard Studio

it's a very dangerous plant....can kill you or make you go blind...at least temporarily

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o good it will only kill us temporarily:D

uh...that was referring to the going blind part....

Hmm I haven't had Datura as an Oneirogen in a long time.
Lately my dreamrecall has been significantly increased and now it's been at a steady level for a while.

Tonight I will chew up and swallow 3 Datura Inoxia seeds some 15 to 30 minutes before sleep.

I had very deep, intricated, wild dreams, that weren't very well remembered.
Maybe I should report that I went to sleep ill (headache, coughing, sore irritated lungs, muscle aches and exhaustion) and it has lead me to sleep alot deeper than I usually do, so perhaps that had to do with my poor Dream Recall.

Still I have the sense of a night of very intense deep dreaming, too much events happened to remember it all. Also I stayed up watching TV for about an hour or 2.

I fell asleep with much more ease than I usually do, despite the fact that I was inconvenienced by illness and physical uncomfortability. I think the Datura Inoxia seeds attributed to that.

I ate two datura seeds last night.

I felt like I was literally dreaming ever second of sleep. I met Lady Datura. She picked me up and looked at me, then tossed me to the side dismissively.

I will wait a couple days and take it again.

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Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I ate two datura seeds last night.

I felt like I was literally dreaming ever second of sleep. I met Lady Datura. She picked me up and looked at me, then tossed me to the side dismissively.

I will wait a couple days and take it again.

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Yep that sounds much like Lady Datura indeed.


And as to the risk/benefit of Datura I'll recite an old, true saying: "The only difference between a poison and a medicine is the dose"

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Originally Posted by SKA

Yep that sounds much like Lady Datura indeed.


And as to the risk/benefit of Datura I'll recite an old, true saying: "The only difference between a poison and a medicine is the dose"

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So, true. I took four last night, and had another dream of her. I don't think I'll eat her again for a long while.

I ate datura seeds for the last time. Lady Datura said to me that I never need to use seeds to summon her again. I can summon her at any time I wish by thought, should I ever desire her wisdom, power and madness.

Soon ( when I sleep at normal hours again) I will try combining 3 Datura Inoxia seeds with the African Dreambean Entada Rheedii for Oneirogenesis.

I´ll keep you guys updated.

For dream recall in a concious state use Sclerotia "Atlantis" ( Psilocybe atlantis ) , 15 gram on a empty stomach would be enough - just be sure to meditate before usage so you go in with a empty head. Most mushrooms promotes concious dream recall but atlantis gave me the best result. 10 gram or (especially) 20 gram of blue stilton cheese give lucid dreams , combine a few datura seeds and eat stilton for good lucid dreaming. you can only recall dreams from the unconcious layer ; merging the concious / unconcious layer by using certain psychotropic substances /plants such as mushrooms.
mushrooms like atlantis zaps you to another reality ( in high doses ) color and light gets a blue color, you get dark green plant eyes - it's a trickster reality full of enities which would give you bad or wrong information - you need to know what's real and not real which is psychological and not ( whats physical psychological or from another reality), so only use it with a sharp keen and rested mind. Preparation is the key

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Originally Posted by Lodewijkp

For dream recall in a concious state use Sclerotia "Atlantis" ( Psilocybe atlantis ) , 15 gram on a empty stomach would be enough - just be sure to meditate before usage so you go in with a empty head. Most mushrooms promotes concious dream recall but atlantis gave me the best result. 10 gram or (especially) 20 gram of blue stilton cheese give lucid dreams , combine a few datura seeds and eat stilton for good lucid dreaming. you can only recall dreams from the unconcious layer ; merging the concious / unconcious layer by using certain psychotropic substances /plants such as mushrooms.
mushrooms like atlantis zaps you to another reality ( in high doses ) color and light gets a blue color, you get dark green plant eyes - it's a trickster reality full of enities which would give you bad or wrong information - you need to know what's real and not real which is psychological and not ( whats physical psychological or from another reality), so only use it with a sharp keen and rested mind. Preparation is the key

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tell us about your personal experiences.

I used every component on it's own and tried combining them later , my experiences with Psilocybe and especially Psilocybe atlantis was very peculair.
i used Psilocybe atlantis several times ... the first time was the best since the effects were new and noticable.

First time i used directly 10 grams but after reading different forums i decided i should take a additional 5 grams ( 15 grams total ) it took an hour before the effects to set in , as preparation i listened to feel-good music and tried to think of the problems i solved and positive things i did , it's important to go in positive to when using these shrooms - however my main goal was not to enhance a positive state on myself my goal was healing / soul retrieval. Few months prior i had psychological problems which i couldn't solve since they go a long time - hardwired problems , at that time i used hawaian baby woodrose seeds ( 3 seeds) and changed my state - unconcious things became concious and i could see and explore my problems. During this trip my mind gone FAST and many thoughts shoot through my head i accepting my healing and realized i resisted reality too much, my unconcious told my concious mind i couldn't solve those problems because i resisted my reality i resisted the feeling about who i really was.

I knew i could heal psychological problems by using pscychotropic/ psychoactive drugs i decided i need to look inside myself , after reading different subject about mushrooms - how they merge the subconcious and concious mind it looked perfect for me.

I wanted to look into myself - my goal was not to enhance dreaming or dreaming recall.

After meditating my mind was clearly empty - this is important because i got told that if you have concious problems then your unconcious can amplify that problems ( and vice versa) resulating in a very bad trip so i knew i should be neutral of mind. a Hour after ingestion i felt the first effects kicking in and this is where the story starts.....

First of all my eyes became tense.. like there was alot of pressure on my eyes and i could clearly feel my veins pumping alot of blood - suddenly the candles i lit turned blue of color.... all candelight was blue/purple and i enjoyed these awesome effects , the weird thing is that normal electric light was normal of color no matter the light intensity.. only candel light seem to have a different color suddenly i was questioning myself : is blue color the real color?.... which reality is real ? few minutes later i could see my own eyes .. it's hard to explain but it's like i was superconcious of my eyes and i could see pictures of my own eyes. The amplified sensetivity of my eyes lead me to believe my concious mind was multiplied , i could feel sensations i didn't feel before like there were two people in my body '' one that is hiding and one that is walking around ''. My thoughts didn't race through my head like other psychoactive drugs i actually felt very calm and could easily guide myself without any problems.

Suddenly i felt like i forgot things and mental projections started to go into my mind... i suddenly remember dreams which i never conciously remembered , i even remember dreams i've had years ago - i cannot explain how this happened or how i got into this state. i can only say my mediation prior to my trip and the use of the substance itself caused this state. i was getting thoughts about certain dreams , dreams with vampires and dreams with aliens walking into my room. suddenly i realized asking myself questions like im asking someone else is a good idea so i asked ; how can i be healed or how can i be a better person. Alot of answers which i got during the trip i didn't remember after the trip so it would be wise to write stuff down if you eveer decide to ask some good questions.

Physical state also changed , i felt very horny and energetic i had thoughts about girls who i didn't like - im not attracted to those girls but i had erotic thoughts about them. It almost felt like a ego thing - being suddenly attracted girls who are easy to get .... weird. The most weirdest were the visits to the toilet , my vision was almost if i was looking through a magnifying glass and time was passing by rather fast - walking to the toilet was like i was running and after each toilet trip i realize alot of time have past.
when i looked in the mirror my eyes turned green and the whole room started to have a greenish tint , i didn't realy have to turned my head to look it was almost if i had a certain vision before i even looked at a certain place.

My voice also changed - or my perception of my voice im not 100 % sure but i was seriously feeling like i was in wonderland like a was some dark elf or something. When i gone back into my room i suddenly could feel plants when looking at them.... i knew what problems they had and who they are , i felt their energy but again im a very sensetive person with a deep connection to nature im addicted to gardening and im fascinated by plants. i have this plant and i treated him according to the information i got during my trip - the plant even recovered ( soil was not acidic enough)

Suddenly i realized i had dreams about these girls , plants and all these situations , there was no information or state aquirement during my trip i was just reliving ( mentally ) dreams and deja vu's which i had during my sleep). ialso got deceived by certain things... i have seen ufo's in my life and i don't know if they are alien or not , ( unidentified object ) my opinion is that they are paranormal appearations but during my trip i got told that they are entities which are part of chaos , since you have balance in nature you also got choas as counterpart ( ying yang idea ... balance and chaos ) most of those entities come in alot of forms like shadows and are here to balance things by spreading choas ... even the mushrooms are part of this..... it sounds familair and a few days later it sounded like something i read before .. look for trickster on wikipedia.

since i took the shroom i didn't knew if i had entered choas or stability... but i do know the reality i was in was very alien , everything weird , i couldn't stop moving and i seemed to be switching from one reality to the original one , lightning changes etc.

after my first trip ( on atlantis mushrooms) i was completely fine, no hangover or other weird physical side effects a important note is that I ALSO LOST 90 % OF THE DREAMS I REMEMBERED DURING MY TRIP so it's important to take notes during the trip - since my goal wasn't recalling dreams at all i didn't do it at that time.
After my trip i became more sensitive to my enviroment , i started to notice things i didn't noticed before and trips or other substances were much more effective - i halved dosage of most psychedelic drugs ( even normal herbs ). im not saying you will have experience the same effects like me , experiences are variated.

BLUE STILTON CHEESE I have used blue stilton cheese , i have heard people talking about legal high in a radioshow called ''coast to coast am'' and the guest said alot of people had very vivid lucid dreams when they ate 20 grams of blue stilton cheese 30 minutes prior to sleeping. I was just curious because most people and reports told me it was quitte an effective substance for dreaming, at least 70% reported lucid dreams after one time use and 90 % experienced at least one lucid dream in 3 times of usage. i bought 60 grams from a local cheeseshop ( we have those in holland ) that evening before i went to bed i ate 20 grams of blue stilton..... and WOW... im not a fan of blue cheese but it was delicious ,i decide to eat a additional 15 grams to make sure it would take effect. lots of saturated fats lol clogging my brain arteries could also make me dream .. i mean this cheese contains lots of saturate fats. (looking back i think 20 gram is enough ). Stilton works due high levels of Tryptophane and some people said the fungus used for making the cheese having certain effects as well.

I had serious lucid dreams that night ; i dreamd that world had fallen and there were vampires or vampiric like humanoids roaming the planet killing everyone - we fought them with weapons and the movements and feelings were so real i even felt pain and fear , walking felt like walking in real life. The dream ends with me being somewhere in a pine forrest on a isolated island in canada - vampires do not go there because no people live there so i was relatively safe.

anyway blue stilton is a solid dream promoter.. the reason i switched over to certain plants and seeds is because stilton is expensive and not healthy by daily use, i've also used proteine shakes contain lots of Tryptophan but it doesn't work as well, stilton is better. however when you combine plants like datura seeds with stilton....holy shit .... it's like a instant dream inducer and if you take shroom like Psilocybe atlantis when waking up or later you have in most cases a serious dream recall session. You should however not do this every day or every week because you can have very bad dreams and bad trips and it takes a special person to endure these trips - with special i mean someone who is trained in shamanic practice , entheogenic drugs and psychotropic plants.

Since my stilton adventure i became more interested in dreams and realities and tried different substances when and before sleeping. i've tried ayuashya ( mimosta hostilis and syrian rue ) , LSA seeds like morning glory and hawaian baby woodrose and so forth and those all had healing effects but they didn't really promote dreaming on a consistent result. I used certain plants like datura because they seemed very effective on small dosage ( regarding chemistry ).

Like i said im not a newbie in plants and im experienced with a wide variety of plants - toxic or non toxic , i also do plant spirit medicine and meditations and this could be a certain factor by certain results. i am a newb in english grammer so sorry about that.
Dreams are fascinating indeed , i've had dreams about people before i even see them in real life - i had a dreams about me and my ex-girlfriend breaking up before i even had a relationship with her.... it all happened in real life months later.

I only skimmed over the thread, but that's quite a post Aquanina, thanks for sharing that. Reading trip reports of datura always hints me toward the idea that plants do in fact have a consciousness of their own. I'm considering trying it out, even if the tricks that lady datura plays seem to be a bit malevolent, she seems to enjoy teasing and toying around with those that use her seeds.

Would you do it again?

Oh awesome thanks for the link, I've heard good things about Bouncing Bear and I've been looking for a trusted vendor. I think I just found my new place for my entheogenic needs. :]

Just 3 seeds huh? That's great! Yeah I've read some horror stories about Datura on erowid too lol, but it seems that most of them took waaay too many seeds, so it's nice to know that a very low doses can be used for LDing and such. Do you just eat them moments before going to bed?

I read this Topic over again, noticing the extremely high succesrate I and others have using Datura as an Oneirogen.
I've tried Enthada Rheedi as well as African Dream Root, but both were irreliable and not very clearly active.
Datura, however, has never been disappointing as an Oneirogen.
It seems that if you overindulge Datura, she will Punish you, but when you are humble and take a shy 3 to 5 seeds, she will help you in all sorts of spiritual practice which includes Lucid Dreaming )


It has made me decide to crush 3 Datura Innoxia seeds, mix them through my Tea and drink them up some 20 to 40 minutes before I go to bed.


Remember people: 5 seeds can be surprisingly active; more than comfortable even. Don't ever take more. In fact 3 seeds are the ideal number. There are known cases of people who took a mere 15 seeds and had a disastrous, frightfull delirant experience that lasted almost 2 full days. I guess if you take 15 seeds that are all abnormally potent you just may be so unlucky to slip over the threshhold into this dreadfull state. 3 Seeds and no more.

I'm really interested in ordering a few seeds after my unsuccessful attempts with silene capensis, but I'm wondering what type/strain of datura is best for LDing. Innoxia seems to be the most common but theres also ferox, metel, and a few others, does anyone happen to know the difference among them?

edit: Nevermind, I should've payed more attention to the thread, seems like inoxia is the way to go.

Those 3 seeds appeared to be very potent. Quite psychoactive. I was too awake to sleep for hours, but when I did finally dose off I indeed had very vivid and noticably more memorable dreams.
It was a peculiar state that balanced very finely in the dead center between Waking and Sleeping & Dreaming.
I was just a tad bit too active to allow me to sleep on it, but it's this strange deeply calm and entranced, yet vividly awake feeling that indeed is very helpfull in making us experience dreams alot more consciously than usual.

Next time I will try putting only 2 seeds in my Tea. If that proves too active, I'll reduce it all to 1 seed. But I won't be taking it again for a while.
I'm still feeling the subtile activity slowly comming to an end as I write this. I suppose it could affect my dreams tonight very much.

Please be very careful with Datura. A friendly word of advice would be to carefully review the Erowid vault (link) on this one. Some of the posted experiences are quite hefty. I've heard of this one for quite a many years, but have strongly avoided it due to some of the reported ill effects.

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Originally Posted by anderj101

Please be very careful with Datura. A friendly word of advice would be to carefully review the Erowid vault (link) on this one. Some of the posted experiences are quite hefty. I've heard of this one for quite a many years, but have strongly avoided it due to some of the reported ill effects.

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Yes I have Reviewed the Erowid Vault of Datura extensively. Based on the experience reports on Erowid's Datura vault I have decided that 3 seeds is a safe dose and oughta be the maximum.
Last night I had vivid, mystical and memorable dreams again.

I'm thinking of making Oneirogenic Tea mixes and D.Inoxia seeds will defenitely be in it.
A Tea strained off of 1 large D.Inoxia seed & the cap of 1 small magic mushroom seems like a well Oneirogenic mix.
If this proves too psychoactive to allow sleep I will lower the dose, untill sleep is possible, yet the wakefullness persists beyond sleep and is caried into Dreams.

A Tea from 1 D.Inoxia seed and a very low dose of Banistereopsis Caapi vine seems like a proper Oneirogenic combination as well.
But whenever ingesting any amount of Caapi( because it contains MAOI's) I should first follow at least a 1 day MAOI -diet.

I have never experienced Mescaline, allthough I have a San Pedro cactus growing. Perhaps it could also have the same Oneirogenic properties as most Psychedelic substances are known to have.
Perhaps anyone here who has experienced Mescaline, pure or in cacti form, perhaps they can tell if it has the same calm yet wakefull effect and wether it would be suitable, in low doses, as an Oneirogen?

SKA may I ask where you got your innoxia seeds? I can't seem to find any entheogen vendors that sell datura except for bouncingbear, but they only sell ferox and metel seeds. I figure I could use ferox in 3 seed doses as Aquanina suggested (um, before she removed her posts), but I'm not too familiar with the difference between these different strains, so I dunno.

Don't bother Entheogen vendors; Go to your local plant/flower/garden store and you are likely to run into one of the Datura varieties there.
Their availability may depend on season: Here they are only sold in summer, because they won't grow here during the harsh Dutch winters anywayz. Make sure you study the appearance of Datura. When you know it's shape, colors, size and overall appearance I'm sure you'll start noticing them all around you: In stores, in public parks, in malls, on schoolcampuses...They are planted everywhere, because they're beautyfull off course.

Funny thing is that one day while going home, walking down my street, I found them being sold at a flower/gardenshop in my street.
I got Datura Inoxia, variety Fastuosa; Purple, triple flowered. This one exactly:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3495/...0570301f84.jpg