Thread: Datura and the Dream

Datura is a strange creature.

I'll be the first to admit that SKA is correct in that if you use Datura a couple of seeds is prudent. More than that you risk more than you can imagine. I have indepth experience of Entheogens stretching back to 1980 and there's no way on this green earth i'd take more than 3-5 at a time over a 72 hour period. remember that... 72 hours ie 3 days for plant chemicals to process out. that should be sufficent to get dream state started. actually i think other suppliments are better for beginners. ie melatonin and natural plants at this site are a good start http://psychoactiveherbs.com/catalog...7530b856632c56

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calea_zacatechichi
Calea zacatechichi, also known as Dream Herb, Cheech, and Bitter Grass, is a plant used by the indigenous Chontal of the Mexican state of Oaxaca for oneiromancy (a form of divination based on dreams.) The plant naturally occurs from southern Mexico to northern Costa Rica. It has been scientifically demonstrated that extracts of this plant increase reaction times and the frequency and/or recollection of dreams[1] versus placebo and diazepam. It is also employed by the Chontal people as a medicinal herb against gastrointestinal disorders, and is used as an appetizer, cathartic anti-dysentery remedy, and as a fever-reducing agent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silene_capensis
Silene capensis (syn. Silene undulata) (also known as African Dream Root) is a plant native to the Eastern Cape of South Africa, where is regarded by the Xhosa people as a sacred plant. Its root is traditionally used to induce vivid (and according to the Xhosa, prophetic) lucid dreams during the initiation process of shamans, classifying it a naturally-occurring oneirogen similar to the more well-known dream herb Calea zacatechichi.

In Cultivation it is an easily grown but moisture hungry herb, but tolerant of extreme heat (+40C) and moderate cold (-5C). A moisture retentive seedbed is essential. It acts a biennial to short lived perrennial and the root can be harvested after the second year

Okay 50/50 chance is a little ridiculous you are right. I will not deny that in the right hands, in the right time and place that certain substances might be used to gain some spiritual insite. But if you don't know what you are doing that is dangerous that is all I am trying to say.

Nope - no bad trips, I actually very much enjoyed mushrooms when I used to do them. It was a very artistic high as I remember. lol

I recently experimented with shrooms and dreaming. As far as I can tell, they don't mix. As I got closer to sleep, the mushrooms ceased to have any effect, and it wasn't until I roused myself mentally that they kicked in again.

I tried a few times, and it didn't seem to have any effect on my dreams at all. Just seemed to stop working as I got close to falling asleep.

So if anyone is hoping shrooms with help with LDing, don't bother.

Datura isn't so much of an LD-inducing drug as it is a trainwreck hallucinogen. You'll see shit, but you won't be in much control of it and it will be horribly unpleasant and you'll be accompanied by a lot of nausea. Coleus/calea on the other hand, is a much milder hallucinogen which induces extremely vivid dreams which are nearly always lucid. Coleus is also nearly harmless, and the only side affect is very very slight nausea which is only from eating a very large amount of fibrous plant matter, not from toxicity.

Originally Posted by SKA

Yeah that's how witches flew to the Sabbath meeting. They would make a Datura ointment, smear it on the end of a broomstick and insert it vaginally, where the mucus membrane would absorb the alkaloids really fast. To the physical eye the witches coud be seen quietly lying in bed or in a chair, while their spirits were searing through the skies traveling to the Sabbath meeting/communion.

I've always been interested in the subject of witches, they were like the european shamans right? Where did you read about this? All I know is about the witch burning, but the stories about toads and mushrooms all start to make sense now

Well I'm glad we're all on par here.
Cusp, you shouldn't say such a blanket statement like that. I believe SKA has some experience with Shrooms and dreams. If I remember correctly he said one small one is what he usually takes.

Anyway so since we're all (?) kinda getting on the same boat here finally, we can discuss this Datura and dreaming properly.

Someone else start, lol

Datura is to dangerous for other than trained persons to handle and even then they are taking a chance. IF you've had less than 3-4 years dealing with entheogenic compounds ie LSD, Mescaline(peyote/san pedro cactus), psiloscybe, psilocybin, salvia divinorum, etc.. I wouldn't suggest u mess with it. Could be last time you u mess with anything... It could make u insane, or kill yourself accidently ie run out into traffic and get run over by a bus or out of a window thinking theres a walkway there etc... There are numerous ways to die on Datura..Because you actually can't distinguish between fact / fictions,. It might just shut down certain parts of your nervous system say like your heart. Hell most medicine people I know are afraid to touch it and I know why. In just touching it you can get the compounds on your hands / arms etc and then it'll absorb into bloodstream. Nothing like walking through the woods to grandmas house and on way rubbing against a Datura.. Next thing you know your not in Kansas much less on this planet... lol
Native healers classify plants into 3 groups. Healing, Visionary, & Poisons. Datura is in poison catagory. Matter of fact Brujos or witches use it to cause madness or death to deserving enemies. Brujos make a paste of plant parts & smear on object enemy likely to handle.

Datura belongs to classic "witches' weeds," along with deadly nightshade, henbane, and mandrake. Most parts of the plants contain toxic hallucinogens, and Datura has a long history of use for causing delirious states and death. It was well known as an essential ingredient of love potions and witches' brews.

Common names include Thorn Apple (from the spiny fruit), Pricklyburr (similarly), Jimson Weed, Moonflower, Hell's Bells, Devil's Weed, Devil's Cucumber, and Devil's Trumpet, (from their large trumpet-shaped flowers). Nathaniel Hawthorne refers to one type in The Scarlet Letter as Apple-Peru. The word datura comes from the Hindi Dhatūrā (thorn apple); record of this name dates back to 1662 (OED). In Tamil it is called as "oomathai" Where i'm from it's called "TORNADO LOCO". notice LOCO part of that. ie make u go insane. Insane is not the same as psychedelic altered state of consciousness. . at least not from my experience...

The nightshade family is an extremely dangerous class of plants to work with. They can kill u in infinite ways. In small doses effects are minor, with increasing amounts the effects like all things become more pronounced. At some point it'll run away with u rather than the other way around. The problem is in finding the proper dosage. This is because it's a plant and at various stages of it's growth cycle the active ingredients are less or more pronounced. Also important is what part of plant you consume. Roots, stems, leaves, flowers, etc.. Generally the active compounds are not found in equal proportion in all parts of plant. I suggest a visit to Erowid and other sites to get an idea of percentages of active compounds in each part.

Originally Posted by ShamanicMystic

Nothing like walking through the woods to grandmas house and on way rubbing against a Datura.. Next thing you know your not in Kansas much less on this planet... lol

This simply wouldn't happen unless you rubbed the flower all over your body.

I was just wondering, does anyone know if ALL nightshade spp. have these alkaloids, even in small amounts?
i.e Tomatoes, Potatoes, Tobacco, that prickly one which is just called 'deadly nightshade' etc.

me and many of my friends have been "playing"/experimenting with datura for quite some time, my first trip was about 15 years ago.... since my first time i usually took the way of 'over-dose', that is take an amount that will put you in a place where you have no control over the trip, talking to people that arent there, playing out senarios that arent real, saying things that make no sence, etc. etc..... the reason is that if you dont get over the 'threshold' you feel like total shit for the rest of the day or longer, i mean bad news... unless you take the minute dose before bed route...ive eaten several whole seed pods at a time, in tea or raw...(i prefere tea)... because its the most potent part of the plant, but have tried every other part as well... smoking the leaf for example is nice and mellow and can impart a more visual experience and is good for asthma....

we usually have baby sitters because most people black out, and if someone writes down what you do and say, not only will it be hillarious, but it usually jogs the memory... (for some reason i dont fully black out at all) or you may hurt yourself, ie. woody tried to drink gasoline, and amy wanted to drive, tom did a strip tease in front of a friends parents...
everyone who does it says "im never doing that shit again", but some of us are drawn back to it for some dumb reason, ernie more than anyone i know which may be the cause of his bad eyesight.... a couple people have had 'bad' nightmarish or paranoiac trips, but in hindsight it was predictable and could have been avoided... most people are some where else, but having a relatively good time where ever it is that they are... amy rearanges leaves on the forest floor for example... critter has had the most fun ive ever seen anyone have on this plant (he usually has many varieties growing at his house) he spent the day on his knees laughing his fool head off... in the morning he ran/hobbled to the out house, he came back shaking his head... "i felt the diarrhea in my pants, felt it running down my legs, felt it in my shoe... but when i got to the shitter, there was nothing there"....drift thought he had hallucinated the joint we passed him and lost it in the couch...

i have yet to try the ointment of which there's the one 'recipe' at erowid, but have heard bits of folklore like the symbolism of 'witches' 'riding the broom stick' apparently slathered with such a concoction, perhaps including muscarine mushrooms.... but have full intention of doing so soon....(not in the winter in MN however... out door stuff... and not with a broomstick)

oh yes, there have been instances where friends have gone to the hospital, but we do not know wheather they had really fucking over-dosed or weather they scaired the shit out of unsuspecting friends and relatives or was a niusance to the authorities...the hospital always tells you that you almost died no matter what you o.d. on.... jail has been an option as well....

Serveral seedpods at a time?
Congratulations, Lots, for surviving something that could have EASILY killed you.

After reading this I was surprised to see no mention of hanging the extremely fragrant sometimes pungent flowers of either Datura or the closely related Brugmansia over the head while sleeping. I remember seeing this method referenced somewhere as a traditional method of use but cannot locate the source (anyone?). I have no qualms against the ingestion of baneful herbs am fairly well-versed in their dangers and somewhat annoyed at the endless warnings from people with no relationship with the plants, but have not been feeling confident and acquainted enough myself to directly ingest it. I am growing several Daturas and Brugmansias which will soon be in bloom and will try this in due time. Maybe the 2-5 seeds will follow in the future with luck and seeding. I've always felt somewhat intoxicated by the mere fragrance of the flowers which emit a potent smell that seemed to change between peanut butter, rotting flesh, and lemon depending on the time of night and moon. I have known several people who have obtained strange dreams, oddly enough having a consistent subject of strange reptilian organisms, by the suspending of fresh flowers above the head while sleeping. The drawback to this is that robbing the plant of fresh flowers does not allow it to produce seed, so prudence is recommended. I welcome anyone who is up for hanging a bouquet of fresh Solanacae blossoms above their heads reports of subsequent experiences or lack there of.

The reason people warned who haven't taken it is because we have read about it extensively. Others have taken it and say the same. So I really don't see what your problem is with that.
The flower hanging sounds alright. BUT, if they fall down you would probably OD in your sleep. I have heard of this lady who had the tree outside her bedroom window and the wind blowing the chemicals in made her hallucinate. So hanging above your head might work. But yeah, I would probably be to worried about it falling to go to sleep. Maybe just setting it in your room somewhere might work. But still, SKA's 1-3 seeds sounds more efficient and safe.

Off topic much?

I've been experimenting with brugmansia and it's effect on dreams for the past week. I have two plants of it growing in my backyard. So far I've tried it three times, I take about 1-2 square inches of a flower about 1-2 hours before bed. Taking it an hour or two before going to sleep seems to work better than taking right before.
I've been neglecting my dream journal for awhile, so my recall is less than perfect. All three nights I took the brug flower, my recall was much better. I remembered several hours of dreams, I couldn't even write them all down. Two of those nights I had a lucid dream. My dreams were more vivid and it helped me realize I was sleeping.

I want to try hanging a few flowers over my head while I sleep. Sounds interesting. I wouldn't be too worried about OD'ing from a flower or two falling on my head while I sleep. I mean, unless I eat them in my sleep, I should be alright. I ate a whole flower once, I was curious... (yeah, curiosity killed the cat, but fortunately, I am not a cat) I felt weird all day and had a few minor hallucinations but I didn't OD or freak out like most other people. It should be safe to hang a few flowers on my ceiling. I'm going to wait a few days first because I've taken small amounts every other night for the past 6 days. I need to let it clear out of my system before I take anymore. I'll be sure to report what happens here when I do it though.

I think Brugs might be more forgiving than Datura from what I've gathered and certainly not too far off topic which may be for better or worse depending on the user. Their blossoms smell much more lemony and aromatic than Datura which I've always thought smelt like peanut butter at times. The flowers falling on the head could easily be avoided by positioning them slightly below or above the head. You could always just take a nap under a blossoming tree on a hot summer night if one is accessible. Another off topic nightshade related dream possibility with similar chemistry and lesser toxicity might be Henbane if anybody has experience with that. Henbane in some occult traditions is used as incense and never ingested directly. Datura might be able to function in a similar manner. The three seeds method seems fairly efficient and risk free, I will try when the plants are seeding.

Originally Posted by blahaha

Off topic much?

What? who and what was off-topic?

True you might not eat them but inhaling it all night could cause an OD.
Incense sounds alright. Or maybe one of those oil-burners? I noticed when I left the flowers in a plastic bag they turned into lack tar kind of liquid. Could put a small amount of that in there with some water....

Originally Posted by tommo

What? who and what was off-topic?

True you might not eat them but inhaling it all night could cause an OD.
Incense sounds alright. Or maybe one of those oil-burners? I noticed when I left the flowers in a plastic bag they turned into lack tar kind of liquid. Could put a small amount of that in there with some water....

It was getting off topic because this was supposed to be about datura and dreams, and it seemed like a lot of people were fighting about how dangerous this is and stuff. I'm sure if anyone knows what datura is, they probably know it's dangers too.

a couple of years back I tried putting a datura flower in a glass of water next to my bed. that night I had intensely graphic nightmares about being chased down a long corridor by a montrous being. the dream lasted a long time. I never did it again.

I was told that the problem was that I drank wine that same evening. Actually I've been thinking of doing it again, now that I am doing alot of dreamwork.

If you have a fresh flower, try just putting it at your bedside. Kind of a test run before drinking teas of it.

Where I live (South America) I know of some extremely unfortunate cases of people that had lasting affects from incorrect use of datura. Permanent paranoia, in one case, in another, a man tripping wildly putting his arms under a market meat cutter's machine and losing both of them.


When people here say to be careful, they MEAN it!

Perhaps 3 seeds of Datura Inoxia should be combined with other oneirogens to make for more dramatic dream enhancement.
How would 3 D. Inoxia seeds combined with a low dose of sublingually/buccally administered Salvia extract affect dreams?

Guess I should get some Salvia extract to try this out.

Smoking brugmansia flowers seems to bring on a nice subtle drowsiness with a remote hint of delirium as a friend of a friend accounts:

"Don't think sleep happened in time to judge the dreams though. Got a nice eeg reading during the whole thing, the alphas seemed to peak pretty readily while meditating etc. At some point there was a weird spike really heavily on one of the waves, not quite sure which one as a friend was reading the meter. It was my first go with eeg so I don't have anything to compare it to but maybe I will repeat the experiment and have more data to compare it to soon.

Most of the alkaloids burn off, so I would say its a fairly safe way to go. Nice sweet flowery taste to. Sort of like lemon nectar. I would be pretty careful since the alkaloid content can vary so much and start with a puff and work upwards from there and if you go higher than a whole flower might want to be extremely careful. Leaves are a totally different animal I have yet to accumulate any trustworthy information on them."

shannyball read your own quote in your sig.

other than that all i have to say is damn and also that SKA and all other expierience searchers, what is your state of physicall being in terms of healthiness, just because i want to do all these things(probably not datura for a long time) and am just wondering to all of you still work out n stuff it just seems like this would take alot out of you and i still want to be able to do sports and workout alot

idk kinda random but it just occured to me to ask this, no offence toward any of you, but SKA you did post about you doing this stuff like a bunch of nights in a given week.

I think it could certainly take a lot physically out of you if used and frequency and high doses as could anything. If you experience nightmares that may translate into physical taxation.

Some say Datura excites the desire for power and flatters, which may or may not translate into the physical arena, but is sort of understandable when translated into the more nebulous shamanistic/occult paradigms that have historically been in cahoots with the plant.

Carlos Castaneda certainly talks about it exciting physical power, but the greater portion are likely to dismiss him as a load of crap.

I think the main thing you need to worry about buddy is the degree of faith you have in your sports-playing and your will to keep going with it. I don't think you'll eat some seeds and wake up as a lazy lethargic dope fiend tomorrow. But datura is pretty unpredictable and everybody responds differently so certainty is sort of out the door for you.. any ecstatic/traumatic experience has the tremendous potential to change an individual in serious ways.
Maybe try not to plan much for the day after and start low gradually increasing amounts with intervals of a week or so in between until you build to a noticeable amount in sleep or waking. If you want to play it safe, be sure that the plant material(seeds, leaves, roots, flowers) is from the same plant (well not completely necessary), location, and season. The alkaloid content in the plant fluctuates a good deal and an amount from one plant that was too low to be effective could kill you in another, hence it is a good idea to start very low. A standardized extract is always a safe scientific route, if you have experience in that arena...

A safe and precise way to dose Datura would be to take a safe dose of seeds, between 3 and 5 Datura Inoxia seeds, and extract the alkaloids from that.

If the alkaloids are solved in a solvent and filtered clean of seed pulp then the alkaloid containing solvent can be mixed with a small amount of a skin lotion that get's easily absorbed by the skin. Perhaps a certain amount of Salvia Divinorum extract could be added to this Oneirogenic Datura lotion, allthough I don't know if Salvia's alkaloids will be absorbed through the skin.

A lotion like this could be put on a bandaid that is sticked on a well circulated area of the body(Lower belly, Inside of thighs near groing, near armpits, neck, throat, kneepits) right before sleep. Preferably a small, somewhat comfortable, but very sticky bandaid.
If it's too uncomfortable to sleep with you can cut off the bandaid's sticky parts so that only the white "cushion" remains. Rub the Oneirogenic lotion into the white cushion, stick it on your skin in a well circulated area and keep it in place by wrapping some layers of bandage around it. This would also isolate body heat near the area of the transdermal oneirogenic patch so it opens the skin's pores and makes it sweat. This would make the alkaloid lotion mix with the sweat and enter through the open pores.

If you would put such a transdermal patch on your skin just before you go to bed, the alkaloids would be ingested very slowly and gradually throughout the entire night. The alkaloids would be active WHILE you are dreaming.