Void Dreaming

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03-22-2006, 05:35 AM
sotoik

Void Dreaming

Some years ago.... I saw a really strange dream and I will only discribe it as a void.. empty dream... I will like any sujestions if this was a lucid or not dream
When I started dreaming I was seeing absolutely nothing.... just dark.... but the terror started when I realized that I could not hear or sence anything.... I was like floating in a completely empty space... even air didn't existed... Ok I was really horrified and I did not know what to do but then I started gainig control and realized that this just can't be true.... it must be a dream and from that point all I was trying to do was to get my self awake... When I finally managed to get awake I was swetting like I was running for my life and I could not breath properly.... Just an explanation of what this sould have been would be nice
03-22-2006, 05:38 AM
BillyBob

a bad dream that you gained lucidity in
03-22-2006, 10:41 PM
sotoik

Void Dreaming cont.

I only want to know if this is some kind of dreaming other than lucid dreams... How the lack of physical senses is explained.... I had other dreams that I knew that they were dreams and in some of them I gained control but this was totally different.
03-23-2006, 01:30 AM
Asclepius

I believe its a non-REM dream.

I believe REM kicks in the visuals and other senses.

Its a safe experience. When I've been in this state I've try to force images to appear. But usually after a few minutes I awaken.
03-23-2006, 06:23 AM
sotoik

Non-REM dream

But what do you mean by the term non-REM dream. I know that dreams happen during the REM stage of sleep....
03-23-2006, 01:28 PM
Umbrella

during non-REM sleep, you are completely unconcious, so I don't see how your brain could try to perceive your surroundings like it supposedly does in dreams when you're in deeper sleep. In other words, I don't think dreams outside of REM-sleep are possible, but hey, I don't know everything. Anyway, besides that, I don't see why there would be no visuals connected to a "non-REM" dream if they did exist since the visuals of a dream are created by your imagination.

Personally I'm with BillyBob. Anything is possible in your dreams, including being in a place of nothingness like you (Sotoik) are describing. This isn't a special kind of dream. It was just an unpleasant one, just like zombie dreams don't belong to a seperate category of dreams (though they are said to be unpleasant, which I can imagine >.>).
You did however, become lucid while dreaming, making (part of) the dream a lucid dream.

But then again, that's just me...
03-23-2006, 07:43 PM
BillyBob

its possible to experience anything in a REM dream, including nothing at all (the void) iv experienced states simalar to what your discribing directly after leaving a dream, its totally normal (and very possible during REM)

EDIT: lol sorry umbrella i swear i didnt read your post before i wrote this :oops:
03-24-2006, 01:25 AM
Asclepius

non-rem

80% of subjects report dreams in REM state.
5-10% of subjects report dreams in non-REM.

There are a number of studies proving that dreams are not limited to REM state.

There are differing studies on whether REM dreams and Non-REM dreams are similar.

However, there are definitely studies which show that REM dreams have more intense visuals, contents, and are longer in duration.

One study of REM notes:

Quote:

* *REM begins when the GTF (gigantocellular tegmental field) neurons in the pons (bridge) of the brain stem are stimulated. These GTF nerve cells excite the lower brain (the seat of emotions) and the cortex (where sensory data -- including visual data -- is processed). During REM, the brain emits neurotransmitter chemicals: large amounts of acetylcholine (which stimulates the cortex), and small amounts of serotonin and norepinephrine. At the end of the REM period, dreaming ceases when the locus coeruleus (another cluster of cells in the brain stem) emits another neurotransmitter, norepinephrine, to deactivate the GFT cells. In an experiment with a cat, the EEG readings which correspond to REM sleep were induced by a drug which is similar to the acetylcholine; those readings returned to a non-REM status when the cat was given a dose of norepinephrine. *
[/b]

this study noted:

Quote:

non-REM dreams tend to resemble wakeful thinking (perhaps pondering a wakeful event, or a REM dream which has occurred), and they are generally less emotional, outlandish, lengthy, dramatic, visual, and active. When people are awakened from non-REM dreams, they might say that they weren't asleep at all, but were awake and thinking; this is the error made by some people who claim to be insomniacs, although sleep-lab equipment proves that they were sleeping. In one occasion when I recalled the non-REM state, I noted that "the thoughts were the same as ordinary daytime thoughts, and they concerned regular subjects. It was just an ordinary 'mulling over.'"[/b]

Just as a dream of a dog may be good or bad. A dream of the void may trigger positive negative or no emotions
03-24-2006, 03:00 AM
Naturally Lucid

1st a question

before i answer even more - could you answer the following question? :)

did you fall asleep without stress (mentally or physically) - not worried about anything, etc. or even on a 'reality high' or something?
03-24-2006, 06:44 PM
Umbrella

Re: non-rem

Quote:

Originally posted by Asclepius
80% of subjects report dreams in REM state.
5-10% of subjects report dreams in non-REM.

There are a number of studies proving that dreams are not limited to REM state.

There are differing studies on whether REM dreams and Non-REM dreams are similar.

However, there are definitely studies which show that REM dreams have more intense visuals, contents, and are longer in duration.

One study of REM notes:

Quote:

REM begins when the GTF (gigantocellular tegmental field) neurons in the pons (bridge) of the brain stem are stimulated. These GTF nerve cells excite the lower brain (the seat of emotions) and the cortex (where sensory data -- including visual data -- is processed). During REM, the brain emits neurotransmitter chemicals: large amounts of acetylcholine (which stimulates the cortex), and small amounts of serotonin and norepinephrine. At the end of the REM period, dreaming ceases when the locus coeruleus (another cluster of cells in the brain stem) emits another neurotransmitter, norepinephrine, to deactivate the GFT cells. In an experiment with a cat, the EEG readings which correspond to REM sleep were induced by a drug which is similar to the acetylcholine; those readings returned to a non-REM status when the cat was given a dose of norepinephrine.

this study noted:

Quote:

non-REM dreams tend to resemble wakeful thinking (perhaps pondering a wakeful event, or a REM dream which has occurred), and they are generally less emotional, outlandish, lengthy, dramatic, visual, and active. When people are awakened from non-REM dreams, they might say that they weren't asleep at all, but were awake and thinking; this is the error made by some people who claim to be insomniacs, although sleep-lab equipment proves that they were sleeping. In one occasion when I recalled the non-REM state, I noted that "the thoughts were the same as ordinary daytime thoughts, and they concerned regular subjects. It was just an ordinary 'mulling over.'"[/b]

Just as a dream of a dog may be good or bad. A dream of the void may trigger positive negative or no emotions[/b]

That's interesting, I'd never heard of non REM dreams before, but now that you described them, I think I remember having some of those. In fact, I might have had one last night (what I experienced at least resembles your explanation).
So anyway. Yeah, coulda been a non REM dream then ^.^ Still, remember it might as wel have been a normal dream. Dreaming about a void doesn't necesarilly mean you had a special kind of dream.
03-24-2006, 11:04 PM
nemof

Re: Void Dreaming

Quote:

Originally posted by sotoik
Some years ago.... I saw a really strange dream and I will only discribe it as a void.. empty dream... I will like any sujestions if this was a lucid or not dream
When I started dreaming I was seeing absolutely nothing.... just dark.... but the terror started when I realized that I could not hear or sence anything.... I was like floating in a completely empty space... even air didn't existed... Ok I was really horrified and I did not know what to do but then I started gainig control and realized that this just can't be true.... it must be a dream and from that point all I was trying to do was to get my self awake... When I finally managed to get awake I was swetting like I was running for my life and I could not breath properly.... Just an explanation of what this sould have been would be nice

I know little about the technical side of lucid dreaming but it sounds like a night terror to me.
03-25-2006, 12:33 AM
Ardent Lost

Re: Void Dreaming

Quote:

Originally posted by nemof

I know little about the technical side of lucid dreaming but it sounds like a night terror to me.

I was thinking the same thing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_terror

Quote:

Unlike nightmares, which are frequently a scary event dreamt (e.g. a monster under the bed, falling to one's death, etc.), night terrors are not dreams in the same way. There is no situation or event, scary or otherwise, that is dreamt but rather the emotion of fear itself is felt, often coupled with tension, apprehension and so on.[/b]

Quote:

Unlike nightmares, night terrors occur during the deepest levels of non-REM sleep.[/b]
03-25-2006, 03:11 AM
booker

Interesting thoughts in this thread! I know during meditation one can go into a complete "void". Now if someone were to have a dream of that "void" and hadn't experienced that before I can see how one might have a panic attack reaction and come out of it similar to a night terror episode. Of course can't say for sure that is what happened.
03-25-2006, 03:17 PM
three and four

Uninterrupted consciousness

I only clearly remember one “void” dream that I had. As stated above, it could be several things, including a “regular” LD with no imagery, which can be disconcerting and therefore become nightmare-ish. I wasn’t actually scared in the void – I just stayed there for a while, thinking, hearing a few voices, and that was that.

I’ve also been wondering about something else it might have been: awareness in a phase of (non-REM) deep sleep (also mentioned above).

The Tibetan Buddhists (such as Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche in “The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep”), and other yogis, say that it is possible to maintain a certain form of uninterrupted awareness 24/7, ie throughout all the phases that the brain experiences – sleeping or not.

After all, when we enter a lucid using WILD, we don’t experience any interruption from “waking” consciousness to “dream” consciousness (lucidity). So maybe the WILD transition is just one example of how awareness / consciousness can in fact continue uninterrupted through different states that we experience.

I tend to snap out of my LDs after a few minutes: I wake up as if a switch had been flicked, after a few minutes of dreaming, very aware and with good recall of the LD. So, in fact, if the LD was entered using WILD, then a single thread of consciousness was maintained continuously though “awake”, to “in LD”, then back to “re-awake”. No interruption.

So, just as it’s possible to WILD into a dream, maybe it’s also possible, with practice, to maintain consciousness when entering deep sleep: ie, spend time in the void…

It would be interesting to know if more advanced oneironauts can go through the whole night maintaining a single thread of consciousness as they move through all of the sleep phases (as well as waking up from time to time…).

So, what do you guys think?!
03-27-2006, 05:29 PM
jimvano

Enter the void

I am going into the void 3 to 5 times a week now, after having non-void LDs for over 25 years. The first few times going into the void "by accident" resulted in fear because there is nothing.... I felt like I would die if I entered. Who was I in the void? For the last 20-30 trips into the void, I have chosen to go - to confront my fear of death. To work toward eliminating the self concept. Now these visits to the void bring peace and joy.

I had 6 void LDs in one night last week and 3 last night. In all of these LDs I searched for the void. I find either a door, a hole in the floor, OR I find it by diving into the floor, or flying off the top of stairs, buildings, etc. I am experimenting with this new place trying to discover more about it.

I also went into the void one day when attempting to do "out of body" travel. Are they the same void? I don't know yet. Seemed very similar.
03-28-2006, 01:31 AM
Asclepius

Re: Enter the void

Quote:

Originally posted by jimvano
I am going into the void 3 to 5 times a week now, after having non-void LDs for over 25 years. I had 6 void LDs in one night last week and 3 last night.

Hi Jimvano,
how long do these dreams last for you? Are they very short like a minute or 2, or longer?

The next time I have one of these void dreams, I'm going to try to just be in it and see what its really like. Usually I keep pushing for imagery and wake myself up.
03-28-2006, 02:24 AM
jimvano

Duration of LDs in the Void

I would estimate that the LDs in the void last from 1-5 minutes each, but they usually don't end with me waking up. Almost always I eventually drop into a pre-made dream set - just like a Hollywood movie set. I see it from above and land in (am moved into) the set. Then a dream starts and I use all the techniques I can to stay in them as long as possible. Sometime I then go back into the void and some times I wake up. Total lucid time is anywhere from 5-20 minutes. Last week I went into the void, over and over again, without waking up - I estimate total time in void was 10+ min.

I feel so good in these experiences, now that the fear is gone, that I want them to last as long as possible.
03-28-2006, 03:35 AM
Philman123

Im with JimVano on this one. My times if my lucid dreams when I randomly feel like walking through a door a jumping through a morror I endup in a void like place. I never know what to do there so I usually just leave the same way I entered. I dont think this is nonREM sleep or a night terror. I just think its like space in your mind that hasnt been givin a chance to form a dreamscape. But thats just my opinion.
03-28-2006, 11:44 PM
jimvano

Researching the Void

While searching for writtings about the Void, I went to Andrew Cohen's website (www.andrewcohen.org), a spiritual guru and the editor of "What is Enlightenment?" magazine. I found the following:

Quote:

In the traditional model, enlightenment is attained through the experience of the ground of being, the void from which we have all come. If we go very deeply into a state of meditation—beyond the mind, beyond the body, beyond the world, beyond time—we experience pure consciousness, all-pervading, formless Being. No thing exists in that pristine emptiness, and yet it is the very ground from which the whole universe emerged, and is still emerging right now, including you and me. [/b]

From: http://www.andrewcohen.org/teachings/new-e...ment.asp?page=1

Quote:

The ground of being is empty. It is an objectless, timeless, spaceless, thoughtless void. But everything that exists has come from this no-place, including you and me. Paradoxically, while empty, this no-place is pregnant with infinite, unborn potential.[/b]

From: http://www.andrewcohen.org/meditation/port...rtal-fourth.asp

Sounds like he is describing the same void that we have been talking about!

His description might also explain why people experience fear when first encountering the void - fear of loss of self concept - and why with experience one can feel joy in this "place".