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It is not the best to bring up infinity here, I used the words infinity and moment just to make the title attractive. Now the real question, we can fit hours or even days of experience inside only minutes of dreaming, can we fit a really really long time of experience (years) inside only seconds of dreaming? To me this sounds perfectly sensible and expectable. Okay my real real question is, why do we never hear such experiences?
What?! YOU! Y-Y-You tricked me with that title D:
Yeah, we usualy REM only for 30min but sometimes we dream about a party that last for hours and even people that had a lifetime experience.
Well, time is relative and in our dreams, time mostly comes with focus!
To all the people trying to extend they dream time I usualy say to them "Read this ->", so...
Read this -> Tutorial for extending Lucid Dream Time Hours of LD
That was a beautiful article JPDreeamnz! Now need to figure how to dream a whole year without time skipping :wink:
Just go for it, i'll be here cheering for you ^^
ahh, remember to record on your dream journal, we'll love to read how you've made it \:D/
Hukif, an experienced LDer on DreamViews has explored the realm of time dilation. When I talked to him a while back he told me how he created two worlds, both which he dilated time with. In one world he started an entire civilization and watched it grow. At nighttime he would go back to his house in this world and practice something he would not tell me. In the other world he started his own family and designed the world to self destruct after 10 years. I remember him telling me how it felt extremely long and how it felt just like all the years he stayed there, but of course it's alot to remember. I've heard other accounts of time dilation as well, but Hukif's experience is by far the most intriguing.
I remember reading a post from another experienced LDer a long time ago where he said that he spent an entire lifetime in a dream. Imagine that.
All that being said, I completely believe in time dilation. So far I have only stayed in most Lucid Dreams for a few hours, but thats most of my LDs anyway. The most time I've spent in a dream felt like half of a day. I walked around exploring and such and listened to music on my ipod the entire time while flying and banging a couple of chicks. Its pretty fun to say the least haha.
You never hear of such experiences because most people don't even think about it while immersed in the full enjoyment of their LD. Plus, I doubt many think it is possible anyway. But I know it is because there was no way I slept a full 12 hours to experience that half day LD.
Welp I don't know about the time dilation biz. Some experiences seem longer than they really are, especially if you're trying something new (scientific facts here). So it might feel like hours, and maybe even days, but usually if you count the things you did, it'll be around the rem cycle time.
If you suspect that in some cases, dream time can go faster than real time (maybe you brain would be working faster or whatever??) then I dunno. I'm weiry about that. Wish it would be true and not just mind tricks. Maybe it is, I dunno. Maybe we can invent something in the future that does that özö
I'm really curious about this time dilation, I want to know how it's possible and not just because I want to try it out (although I do). I wonder if there is any science on this but I'm reluctant to search for it because there is a lot of unscientific (bogus) things on this subject, maybe I will spend some time searching later on. I read the article OneUp linked to and I hope I can try these things out soon :D
There is obviously a limit to how much time you can dilate, but we shouldn't underestimate the power of the brain. I'm not talking about spooky unjustified metaphysics. When I got interested in psychedelics, in trip reports I read about many people who talked about feeling an eternity on drugs like LSD and magic mushrooms. People on DMT have experienced things in a 10 minute trip that are comparable to hours on LSD. And this feeling of eternity seems genuine, people really have experiences that they can only describe as eternity. Sam Harris said "I can only describe it as knowing that I have always been and will always be in this very moment." If you're having a bad trip, you'll probably feel like you died and landed in hell, if you're having a good time it'll probably feel like you've died and gone to heaven :P Or whatever your idea of salvation or damnation is.
It's really fascinating and worth exploring, I mean, just imagine being lonely and being able to spend hours or a day with a dream friend or lover. You can get away from the bullshit of waking life. You can have more excitement in a year than most people have in an entire lifetime.
To dilate time you don't want silence get this song from Heart on an LP and a special record player that constantly switches from playing forwards to backwards and listen to it while you sleep if you can get the thing to oscillate at 40Hz you will be able to dilate to infinity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41P8UxneDJE
Studies have shown that people dream in real time. If you want to believe, believe I guess otherwise just enjoy the song, its pretty good :)
Yeah I know about that study, it's by Stephen LaBerge, but I don't think it's legitimate. The subjects had to move their eyes in a certain way once every x amount of seconds, the eye that moves in the dream also moves in real life. So the experimenters can see if the dreamer experiences time at the same rate. But what if doing this, paying detailled attention to the passage of time (instead of just vaguely noticing it) puts the passage of time back to waking life speed? Maybe if you're not specifically counting seconds time can actually be dilated? Plus, there are many many people that report experiences of time dilation.
Yeah but its also been shown that our brain operates way faster during REM then it does during waking life. One study even suggested that dreams occur in seconds at a time, so if that's true then that changes alot.
That's interesting OneUp, do you think you could link me to the article or video where you found that?
You mean higher frequency brain wave? Ppl enter that during meditation too. I don't think it has to do with time dilation, but i might be full of shit. But I'm glad you guys are proposing the possibility of time dilation as a phycological occurance rather than some mistical magic spirit whatever thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneUp
It would be very nice to be able to dilate time in dreams.
Oh but be cautious about anecdotes. The never prove anything when it comes to these things or we would be believing in ghosts, yeti, dragons from old times, etc.
Louia why do you think that in this case anectodes are unreliable?
Well bcz if anything, dreams are the most 'phsycho' things ever, if you know what I mean. You know how dream experience can be, and how our phsychology and mind is during it. It's very tricky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginsan
Now don't get me wrong, I'm open to the concept of time dilation, but it needs scientific proofs, not anecdotes. They just fail in things like these. Or at least, we should be weiry about them. I can't just say that it's proven cuz of anecdotal evidence.
Anyways, if it is true, it'll be proved later with technological advancements I guess.
But what makes them unreliable? When someone says that she dreamt about sitting in an airplane, then she dreamt about sitting in an airplane unless she is lying. Likewise, I think if someone says her dream felt like it lasted 4 hours, even though the rem period only lasted 90 minutes, I would believe her unless I thought she was lying. And there are many people reporting experienced time>actual time why wouldn't you believe it?
I experienced time dilation without skipping (nothing extremely long though) and dream sharing. I know these are real from experience. But when I bring up these subjects I am told these don't mean anything these are only theories and haven't been proved. Obviously this is just an other way of saying "You might be lying, why should I believe in your words?". I understand this, it is far from scientific to "believe" in somebody's story.
It's one thing to believe someone's story just because they said it. But people's stories are still data and you can gain information from them. If many people (like you) report experiencing time dilation how can you say it's unscientific to conclude that people experience time dilation?
Sure, people reporting time dilation is data, it is a "reason" to run an experiment, to be exact. Until time dilation is proven with scientific methods, it will be unscientific to say "people experience time dilation". But perfectly fine and correct to say "many people have reported time dilation"
Hmm interesting. So you think that people's reports on time dilation are unreliable, right? I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with that, I'll think about it and come back later on :)
Yeah. If I, myself hadn't experienced this, I would have no reason to believe nor disbelieve.
Okay I totally agree with that now. People reporting it is no experimental proof of time dilation, it's proof that people are reporting it :P. Then I'll take a step back and say that it's reasonable to think that many people are really experiencing time dilation in dreams. Because otherwise they would have to be either lying or having false memories, do you agree? Or do you maintain that (if you hadn't experienced it yourself) unless it can be experimentally proven it's unreasonable to think so?Quote:
Originally Posted by figurefly
I do agree with that. It is reasonable;-) to think that many people are really experiencing dilation rather than considering the possibility of everyone lying/having false memories.
Alright cool :D I was wondering about how we always experience time differently at different moments in waking life too, so I'm going to look around on Youtube and Google if I can find some info on that. Maybe it can tell us things about time dilation in dreams.
The reason the reports can't be trusted, is that by definition when you are asleep your brain is half turned off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginsan
Science needs experiments, I don't see why people reject the counting and eye movements as a flawed experiment. The theory above seems to be that it is because of the contentedness of the eye movements that are being consciously controlled in the real world while counting is being consciously done during the dream.
Therefore we would need a way to measure something unconsciously controlled in the real world to break the link.
So what would be required, a different experiment. Lets say that you could show that the galvanic skin response (an unconscious response) could be linked to a conscious act such as lying to DC's in a lucid dream. The DC's aren't real the lie isn't real, and response doesn't have to be thought about like eye movements in response to counting. You would then need to have subjects that could lucid dream be trained to lie continuously or refrain from lying for what they perceived to be a fixed amount of time during normal-time lucid dreams, then have them trained to supposedly dilate time, then have them dilate time and tell an equal number of lies. Eventually you could try to do experiments where they switch from lying to truth telling during the lucid dreams as you measure the oscillation of skin response.
I doubt such an experiment is possible. In the end it just seems likely that consciousness requires time, otherwise why couldn't we just close our eyes and compose a years worth of books in our heads in just a few minutes, because thinking like dreaming, takes time.
Of course if it could be done, then we could use the dreamers lies to prove they were telling the truth. :)
Great! Will research too. Would be great if you shared your findings and new thoughts here. Also pm me about anything. :content:
Yeah that sounds like a pretty good experiment (if it is possible), except for one thing that makes this very complicated, our sense of time can be off. You can test this. Take a recording device and say "Now I'm going to take a hike", you come back and you say "I'm back and I think I took x minutes" and you do this throughout the day for many activities for a week or few weeks, and you can never look at the time. So you probably need to do it when you have no school or work. And the recording device needs to record the time of the recordings without you being able to see it while making the recordings.
It will be interesting to see how accurately we estimate the passage of time in different activities. I often feel like I'm meditating longer than I actually am, ofcourse after I do it more often I correct for this and I get more accurate in my guesses, but it still feels like it lasts longer. Having good company or sitting behind the computer does the opposite. There seems to be a general rule that new experiences seem longer than old ones. Maybe when you are in a vivid dream with a clear mind, the experience is rich and you experience many things at a time, but is this enough to explain how people really feel like the dream was 3-4 hours? I have no idea, the longest LD I can remember felt like 45-60 minutes and that was only once.
EDIT:
Here is a short and a long video by the same person about perception of time.
2 minutes: David Eagleman: How to Slow Down Your Perception of Time
30 minutes: What is time to the brain ? Perception of time delation
I'm watching the long one now and I'll let you know what I think :)
Unrelated but, I loved the schizophrenia mention in the long one, it was an interesting approach. :clap: Gotta dig internet now.
I just finished the video now even though I started watching about 2 hours and 40 minutes ago xD That time went to screwing (figuratively) with that friend :P Visitor messaging you and using paint to edit out the funny parts of the conv and show it to friends xD :cackle: But it was a really interesting video. And if I find some connection to time dilation in dreams I'll post something again :)
Alright make sure you censor my name. I don't want noone to know how incredibly unbelievably funny I can be at times. :aphiusiscrazy:
:cackle::cackle::cackle:
Please tell me you're being sarcastic because I'll have to experience this weird sensation that feels like profound confusion and roaring laughter at the same time....
Because I was actually talking about the conv with my friend on Facebook
:rolllaugh: No I know what you were talking about. Being sarcastic because that conversation wasn't funny. :cackle:
I thought 2 outof 5 posts were genuinely funny and 1 out of 5 was kind of funny. It's better than most comedians :P
EDIT: And everything I posted was brilliant so overall it was a funny coversation.
I can't find the article Ginsan, sorry about that man. Trust me though, I did read it. But does that mean that article is the "end all" answer, I really don't think so. I mean think about it, we've all those dreams that felt hours long at one time or another, for me its every night. At one time I did an experiment. I went to bed and set an alarm right when my REM would start, 90 minutes in. Once the alarm went off I woke up for a minute or so to make sure I made my intention clear- I was going to see how long I was inside of my next dream. Sure enough the dream came, and I was Lucid as usual. My Self Awareness was extremely high and my dreams seem to follow a certain principle: As long as I stay self aware I will stay lucid. Once I lose self awareness I become vulnerable to destabilization.
Anyways so I did my thing and explored and what not but while doing so I tried to keep track of time, that is, how long everything felt. In this time I flew around, went inside of a huge building and attended a crazy party. Im having fun at this party, just dancing around and talking to the girls there lmao. Suddenly I hear someone behind me yell, "Oh shit!!". I turn around and everybody starts running away. On the ground in front of me is a grenade. I make a run for it but in this time the degree of my self awareness goes down a bit. If I was fully aware I wouldve realized that I was invulnerable to grenades because this is a dream. Anyways the grenade explodes and a few people die. Everyone comes back and starts partying once more. Im now dancing again enjoying myself when all of a sudden I hear to my left, "Oh shit!!" again. This time I was thinking "What the hell is going on?" but I knew it was a grenade so I ran away. I only got about 5 feet away from the grenade as it exploded but as it exploded and fire and shrapnel flew into my face. As this happened everything went into slow motion. Anyways that happened and I explored alot after that.
When I woke up after all of that about an hour had passed. My point is though, inside of the dream it felt like 3 had passed. And with all of the activities I did it really made sense that it shouldve been around 3 hours, and on top of that I have a really good sense of time in waking life. And even on top of that, during REM our brain is more active than it is awake, so how could that not have been 3 hours. Time Dilation, but of course unintentionally. I don't know how I did it, but it happened.
Sorry for the huge story but I wanted you to kind of get a feel for all the things I did, even though I didn't go into that much detail. I think you start to realize that time dilation only makes sense once you have an experience like this.
Oreo, another member on here once had a lucid dream that he said lasted 15 years I believe. Of course, with all that time passed inside the dream it is nearly impossible to recall all of it, but Oreo has had thousands of LDs so I don't doubt his experience. I don't know how the brain works to produce experiences like these, but it is phenomenal. I also don't think LaBerges time experiment can stand and represent the passing of time in all dreams either, because all dreams are different and they all even feel different for me.
My gut tells me that anything beyond 5 times more dream time than real time is the limit, but that claim is 100% unjustified and indefensible, but I just thought you might want to know what my gut says :P So I'm open minded and I won't think about this imagined limit in a lucid dream because obviously I want to have dreams that last for days :chuckle: I also want to say that time skipping is a wonderful feature of dreams, because you could skip training and just have memories of training and be highly skilled in something and have all kinds of memories of training without having to spend hours/days/weeks training. Time skipping is great for making up for the limits of time dilation, wherever that is. I also want to thank you for linking me to that article, I applied the things just this night and it was my most vivid dream I ever had along with 1 unintentional one. It felt incredible and I even accomplished 1 of my dream goals to my hearts content :D I've been having many breakthroughs and great progress in the past few months and reading that article added a lot of momentum to this progress, so thanks, really! = D I felt the heat of the sun, the warmth of her skin while cuddling (my dream goal), the wind on my body, I heard the wind too.
EDIT: I meant time skipping + false memories actually.
I wasn't referring to lying, but more towards false memories; mind tricks. O/c, anecdotes, as said above, aren't scientific proof, but more of an indicator to something. So I really wanna see if it's real or not, and I'd be most sure if there where real studies with results. O/c if it's real, I wanna learn it! :D
But, ever thought that, even if it's real or not, having LDs that feel longer is still a good thing. So this is still a win win situation kinda.
So, I'm neutral about this. Even if it turns out to be something not as simple as 'basic time dilation' , which might be the case, it would still be cool. I heard some dream herbs do these things, makes the dream feel much much longer (no not from inception xD )
Yeah Louia I agree.
Ginsan, what article were you referring to?
By the way, this is really off topic, but I like your signature man.
That's strange. I was actually referring to the article that JPDreeamnz linked to: Tutorial for extending Lucid Dream Time Hours of LD It's interesting that I was so sure that you sent it. Thanks Zangetsu!! :D Or should I say $%$@#%#$ oops, let's not spoil the manga ^^
Yeah I kept and wrote it because I thought it was beautiful (I still do) but recently I realised that it's completely unfair to think that way. I don't know how much influence a girl has on the prettiness of her smile and the sweetness of her voice, it could be a lot but also very little. So it's still true that I'm attracted to it, it's just not a good thing that I have this tendency. It's almost like saying "The beauty of a woman lies in the size of her tits and ass". Which is probably true but totally unfair. "The joy in her heart" is still legit though :) And that I thought about it I'm going to remove it :P
Also, it's not even fair to put so much emphasis on female beauty as to show it off in your signature, because in the end the only use of female beauty is a sign of fertility right?
What makes you think this is unfair? I'm curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginsan
Back to topic, I came across this thought. Might interest you guys.
Could Mind-Jail and Psychoactive Drugs Fix Overcrowded Prisons? | Motherboard
Because you base your judgement of a person on something that says little about their personality. A point against my previous post, having no influence over something doesn't mean it doesn't improve you as a person, having good parents improves your personality but you have little influence on that. Also, saying a woman is beautiful because she has a nice ass and breasts is actually totally fair if you accept beauty as something that makes women attractive and as a sign of fertility and how she can take care of your children. If this is what makes someone beautiful than beauty should be completely irrelevant unless your goal is to let your genes survive. Then female beauty just becomes an estimate of how useful she will be.
I want to contradict myself further. Judging other people is a great or useful thing to do and I think it would be great if I could do it a lot less. You can see a person for what he or she is but you don't need to decide on whether it's good or bad, right? It's irrelevant. Why is it important to decide whether you like something or not? You can just notice it. Like when you see a blue rock you can just say "it's a blue rock" instead of having to decide whether you like it or not. I hope this is not too confusing.
About the article, obviously there are better ways to deal with this problem. Like forcing people to meditate mainly on compassion an hour or 2 a day. I don't know anything about prison but I don't think that they have used their brains and tools in the best way possible and now they need this crazy method. But it could definitely be useful. Maybe not 1000 years but you could do 6 months of mental time in 1 month of real time and if you could upload brains, put them in a situation where they are likely to become more warm hearted and have more compassion. So I think it can definitely be useful but you don't need to look so far for solutions.
I understand your points. For some people physical appearance could be very well important. And I see no difference between judging someone for their physical apperance and judging someone for their personality traits.
I was going to mention the blue rock thing. But how can one make himself opinion-less?
The best way I know is by meditating. If you want I could find some interesting stuff from Youtube so you can look into it. But basically you quiet your mind. When someone does something stupid you can simply stop yourself from thinking "Oh he's really stupid" over and over again, which I always do automatically if I don't have a clear or quiet mind.
EDIT: This is also more accessible than you might think. At least that's my experience. You feel the effects while meditating. So it's not like you meditate an hour a day for a month until you can barely notice anything.
I am annoyingly opinion-less most of the time. I don't know though if it has anything to do with my meditation. I think, for me, it has more to do with me overthinking everything and over analyzing myself. I feel like a thought robot sometimes. I'm constantly thinking about the possible point of views, and none of them are mine. It's a bit hard to tell but, I can't define myself because I lack opinions.
Why do you care about defining yourself? Unless you're making a career choice or something I don't think it really matters. You can just do whatever you want and think about whatever you want, right? If you have a specific problem that really needs to be solved you can focus your attention and fix it. I know it's annoying to have random weird thoughts while watching a movie, trying to sleep, playing a game, because they cloud your mind and distract you. But in general I don't find random thoughts annoying.
I have something similar btw. I am neutral on many things because I try to see it from many points of view and I see that the solution is rarely simple. So in a conversation I disagree with a lot things that people say, including what I said 30 seconds ago :P
Why do I care? I think about this a lot. Not being able to define myself, not having own opinions on things, gives me an uneasy feeling somewhere between my chest and stomach. I guess it is natural for us humans to want to "belong". To "belong" to a thought. It helps us say "I am".
Don't you think that's strange? To enjoy life less moment to moment because you can't define yourself? How is knowing yourself going to help you enjoy life? It may be natural to want to belong somewhere but that doesn't mean it's helpful to strive for it. All kinds of bad things are natural.
Opinions are like religions. You believe in them because they give you "comfort" and you talk about them to make sure they still sound good to you.
It is not about me wanting to define myself or that I'm enjoying life less moment to moment. I just feel, I could be feeling more comfortable.
I see what you're saying now but I just can't relate to it. I don't understand myself either, I don't think I have a strong sense of self. I understand myself in this way: I often know what's going on inside my head and what I feel from moment to moment. But I don't know what my "true personality" is or what is at the core of my soul, I don't even know if there is such a thing. I don't know how I see myself and I'm not bothered by it. It's interesting that we feel differently about not knowing ourselves.
Yes this is "exactly" how I see myself too. And agree that it's interesting to feel completely different about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginsan
Nice thread here, I've had only one experience with time dilation, it was an accident but it happened anyway:
I found myself in a greyscale world. All around me was hardly any color. I had vague memories of another world and I knew this wasn't my own, through talking to people i found out I was in purgatory, an uneventful place, after a couple days of mindless wandering (it seems we were all like mindless zombies) someone shook me and pointed underneath a parked car. I went and crawled underneath and it was like a portal bringing me back here.
As bizarre as it was, I don't truly believe in a purgatory (I'm not even catholic) but the dream was very real. Day and night were in greyscale and there was barely a difference between the two. I don't know what to think about the dream lasting so many days, but I do know at least that long is possible since I've experienced it. So anyway, keep believing on ur journey :)