Heaven is not the afterlife

So, I got talking to this liberal minded (gay) Anglican at the bar tonight, along with this other Catholic guy. We were essentially debating religion and ended up pretty much agreeing. But very interesting to me is how the first guy exactly corroborated for me something that I've suspected before: the Kingdom of Heaven does not refer not life after death. It refers to Heaven on Earth; a worldly, mortal utopia. Statements like, 'by loving your neighbour, you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven' are NOT delineating some kind of convoluted reward system for good deeds after death; it's a simple statement that by living in the correct way (for instance, by not coveting money), you will create an Earthly paradise, and peace for yourself and others.

Show me where in the Bible where it says that the Kingdom of Heaven is the afterlife, rather than obviously referring to a moral code by which we can make the world a better place.

Not only is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, but Hell is merely a grave or rubbish heap:

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'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been inserted by translators into the Bible because of their preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment. This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators realise that Hebrew words like 'sheol', simply meant the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures.

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'Gehenna' or 'The valley of the son of Hinnom' which is what the Greek word means, was the rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus which was also used to burn the bodies of criminals who had suffered capital punishment. Most of the occurrences of the word 'hell' in the New Testament refer to this 'place of burning' outside of Jerusalem.

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SOURCE

Also here's corroboration of the idea that the Kingdom is meant to be on earth: http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_kingdom.htm

Xei why are you acting as if this is new, news for you? Zhaylin and I have already told you this before and with regards to what Darkmatters mentioned regarding what Hell really is, we've explained this several times in these threads. :p

I'm pretty sure Xei was drunk yesterday as per his thread about alcoholic beverages and his behavior in chat. As for myself, I hadn't seen this info posted before.

I'll have to dig because I haven't been in R/S for quite some time but I'll pull it up.

This is interesting. But what about Paul at the 'Pearly Gates', not that I'm into all the bible stuff. It's a liitle backasswards. BTW, who cares if the guy at the bar is gay? Are gays more philosophical :lol:

I couldn't find mine it's obviously buried deep here. But I did come across Zhaylin's

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

It depends on which theist you ask.
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people actually go to heaven. The rest of mankind is resurrected to life on a perfect Paradise Earth. (There's a lot of Scripture to support this, but I'm lazy and don't want to look for them right now)

'The wages of sin is death' When you die, your "debt" is paid. A place like hell would be a sort of "double jeopardy".
For 1,000 years, Satan and the demons are unable to influence people. During that time, people will be resurrected on Earth and brought to perfection. After 1,000 years, the Devil and his minions are let loose again "for a little while" and people have a final test. Most still side with Satan. Those people are destroyed.
The only ones left are the righteous and then "the meek shall inherit the earth".

What's after that?
How big is your imagination.
People wont die, so they have an eternity to learn art, science, trades and other skills.
Those in Heaven have a sort of administrative position. And- personally- I think they'll create sustainable life on other planets so perfected mankind can migrate there when earth begins to populate again.

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Yea, I share this view.

One theory I believe is Satan was created as an Anti-God character to freighten people into adopting christianity. He is a personifactaion of evil people, things and deeds.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I couldn't find mine it's obviously buried deep here. But I did come across Zhaylin's

Yea, I share this view.

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That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying. Try again.

It has everything to do with exactly what you're saying here and NO, I will not try again because I do not need to.

> Claim you've told me this over and over
> Can't find a single example
> Provide a message with absolutely no relevance

I don't have this problem when talking to anybody else. Look, just read the OP again. "During that time, people will be resurrected on Earth and brought to perfection" is totally and utterly at odds with what I'm saying, and 2 + 2 is not 5. I explicitly said that Heaven has nothing to do with life after death, that it has nothing to do with a religious 'test', that it has nothing to do with immortality... yet that is the post you provide me with. Try again.

Well that's exactly what I'm saying Xei, which is why I was saying this is not new, news to you and I agree that 2 + 2 does NOT equal 5.

On a related note, I don't like the idea of asking God for forgiveness. Ask he whom you've wronged for forgiveness, and the forgiveness you receive will satisfy your own desire for forgiveness, and would most likely settle any "God-related" forgiveness issues, would it not?

Don't pray for something good to happen, go out and make it happen. That itself is the act of God. "Miracles" can be caused by other people just trying to be good people.

I'm sure if "God" is allegedly all forgiving and all-loving, and can't physically DO ANYTHING, wouldn't it be best that we do the acts of God? We are in God's image, allegedly, we are part of the universe, why don't we take responsibility for things in which we believe?

If we are all already a part of God, or the Universe, or whatever you want to call it, our actions ARE the acts of God. (And I agree on the Heaven idea. Do what is morally correct to you, and you will create peace and heaven for yourself and those you love. They all go with the same basic principle; you have to do it yourself if you want it to happen.)

Amen to that Brotha!! :clap:

I'm in heaven when i feel good, i'm in hell when i'm depressed.

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I'm in heaven when i feel good, i'm in hell when i'm depressed.

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You sound like someone who just listened to a lecture from historical Jesus of Nazareth.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Yes - I always took that to mean that you only reach heaven on earth by emulating Jesus - doing as he does. Try to live a life of peace and love.

Of course it's also the obligatory disclaimer - every religion has one. "Only this religion is real - all others are false. Fire and brimstone. etc."

If you admit taking the Bible as compeltely symbolic sense then everything is clear and unveiled. It is all about us making this world heaven or hell, with our actions against other people.

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Originally Posted by MrBlonde

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

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The Gospel according to John is just one of over a dozen Gospels out there. Why do we always say John is right, but everyone else is wrong?

I for one like the Gospel as told by Judas. Judas wasn't a traitor, rather, he HAD to do it, so Jesus could show people that he would be willing to sacrifice everything if only people would love each other more. Judas may have been Jesus' closest disciple.

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Originally Posted by MrBlonde

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

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If that was supposed to be a response to the OP, I hope you realise that you totally failed.

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Originally Posted by ThePreserver

The Gospel according to John is just one of over a dozen Gospels out there. Why do we always say John is right, but everyone else is wrong?

I for one like the Gospel as told by Judas. Judas wasn't a traitor, rather, he HAD to do it, so Jesus could show people that he would be willing to sacrifice everything if only people would love each other more. Judas may have been Jesus' closest disciple.

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Yeah I heard that too, not sure if I heard it from the Gospel of Judas or not.

More on the OP: Not only is heaven not an immaterial realm, but baptism is not water dunking. There are many things lost through time. I believe your idea that Jesus was just trying to make the world a better place is incomplete. Better how? He describes the path to paradise and what he describes is essentially a battle between every person and the darkness inside them

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what do you not bring forth will destroy you." -Jesus, Dead Sea Scrolls.

A buddhist scholar (I can never remember asian names) spoke about how after death, the demons of our imagination become real. An atheist once accounted a near-death experience where he was being accosted by Demons and called out to Jesus only to see angels come and instantaneously slay the demons. Jesus, David and Saul all went through rituals to become the messiah king where they went into the desert for the length of time and confronted their demons. (They were loaded with entheogens)

What I am suggesting is that when you die, you are left only to your imagination (or rather, our imagination) and lose your material foothold, thus forcing you to come face to face with everything within you. Much of what Jesus describes is basically Buddhism with more psychedelic drugs. The path to paradise is a personal path we all take on our own, and we keep taking it even after death. Whether there is a celestial city or not is beyond the point. Most of what we know about the celestial city now comes from people like Edgar Cayce and predecessors, ideas which have slowly seeped into our common sense.

I've pondered that before that when we die we become what we imagine to be true. My Grandfather was an athiest, so I guess he's in some kind of nothing before nothing after thing.

:lol: My mother thinks he's in hell. Sad. She's been brainwashed by the dogma of the Catholic Church.

He'd still see a being of light, he just wouldn't think it's Jesus, necessarily.

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Originally Posted by Xei

If that was supposed to be a response to the OP, I hope you realise that you totally failed.

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How? The father(God) is in heaven and the only way to get there is to believe in Jesus Christ as the lord and Savior of humanity.

"The gods have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight."

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Originally Posted by MrBlonde

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

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You're free to interpret the bible however you want. But that line does not mean what you think it means.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

He'd still see a being of light, he just wouldn't think it's Jesus, necessarily.

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I didn't get to spend anytime at all with my grandfather. Just when I was 2 or something my mother tells me. My Grandmother was an evil women who liked to isolate people and take all their money. They divorced after like 30 years or something. She did the same with my great-grandmother. Stuffed her in a nursing home where no one could get to her and took all her money. Makes me kinda sad because my Grandfather live til I was like 10. We had a lot of the same interests too, so my mom tells me. He collected coins too.

Well, enough of that I'm going off topic...

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Originally Posted by MrBlonde

How? The father(God) is in heaven and the only way to get there is to believe in Jesus Christ as the lord and Savior of humanity.

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Sorry, you're a dumbass. That is your preconceived interpretation of the quote. It is 100% consistent with the idea that Heaven is not the afterlife... it doesn't even mention heaven you dolt.

Try again, or admit that your faith isn't even based on the Bible.

Not only is Atheism a faith it's a blind one at that. Xei you better sniff the crap you're shoveling and wake up and face some reality for once in your life.

I find myself siding with Xei because he made none of those accusations in this particular thread. He simply said the bible doesn't refer to heaven as an ethereal kingdom we all go to when we die if we were good little boys and girls... which is true.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Not only is Atheism a faith it's a blind one at that. Xei you better sniff the crap you're shoveling and wake up and face some reality for once in your life.

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I don't normally mean to be "That guy" but there's another thread for this conversation :P http://www.dreamviews.com/f37/athiesm-faith-122890/

MrBlonde: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Xei: If that was supposed to be a response to the OP, I hope you realise that you totally failed.

Omnis Dei: You're free to interpret the bible however you want. But that line does not mean what you think it means.

Xei: [...] Sorry, you're a dumbass. That is your preconceived interpretation of the quote. It is 100% consistent with the idea that Heaven is not the afterlife... it doesn't even mention heaven you dolt.

Try again, or admit that your faith isn't even based on the Bible.

What the hell guys!? These are such poor, unhelpful responses. That quote is perfectly relevant. Jesus is the "the way, the truth and the life" as a Savior and following in Jesus' footsteps is concordant with "finding" Salvation. Salvation can be called Heaven. Discovering heaven within (as complemented by Omnis Dei's Jesus quote) is "via" Jesus Christ - the Christ within him, and that means the afterlife is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

More on the OP: Not only is heaven not an immaterial realm, but baptism is not water dunking. There are many things lost through time.

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You going to explain this or what? So heaven is a material realm and baptism is cookie dunking? :P

heaven is afterlife. this world is just a test. the only heaven nature in this world is when a man and a woman having sex.

Baptism is psychedelic anointment. Why do you think Jesus, David and Saul all went into the desert and faced demons after the process?

And Jesus' Paradise is an outline to escape suffering.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Baptism is psychedelic anointment. Why do you think Jesus, David and Saul all went into the desert and faced demons after the process?

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A bit more background on this or a link? Again not really covering the point.

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And Heaven is a way of life.

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Did you also say "not immaterial"? I don't understand. Heaven can really be on many levels, but from Jesus' teaching of Heaven you can easily see it as something intangible, even a way of life is dependent on a non-physical orientation.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Not only is Atheism a faith it's a blind one at that. Xei you better sniff the crap you're shoveling and wake up and face some reality for once in your life.

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Reported, your inane troll post doesn't even have any relevance whatsoever to anything in this thread.

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Originally Posted by ThePreserver

I don't normally mean to be "That guy" but there's another thread for this conversation :P http://www.dreamviews.com/f37/athiesm-faith-122890/

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My post has nothing to do with the other thread.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Reported, your inane troll post doesn't even have any relevance whatsoever to anything in this thread.

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You call someone out their faith and no one can call you out on yours? Get real. If you want to report someone make sure you report yourself for cursing that man out also, loser.

This is a thread about asking people to explain why they think the Bible supports an afterlife, and specifically why they think Heaven refers to the afterlife and not just an Earthly utopia.

Yes, my beliefs are totally and utterly irrelevant to this conversation. If you can't talk intelligently about this, don't talk. Keep your asinine 'atheism is blind faith' debates to the relevant thread.

Totally Unnecessary:

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Originally Posted by Xei

Sorry, you're a dumbass. That is your preconceived interpretation of the quote. It is 100% consistent with the idea that Heaven is not the afterlife... it doesn't even mention heaven you dolt.

Try again, or admit that your faith isn't even based on the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Not only is Atheism a faith it's a blind one at that. Xei you better sniff the crap you're shoveling and wake up and face some reality for once in your life.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

My post has nothing to do with the other thread.
You call someone out their faith and no one can call you out on yours? Get real. If you want to report someone make sure you report yourself for cursing that man out also, loser.

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Honestly, arguing your point over the internet like this is a complete waste of time. If you believe you are right and believe that you have intelligence perhaps you have the intelligence and capability to realise that your argument means nothing, especially on the internet.

Discussion is put here for everyone to gain insight into other people's beliefs and develop our own beliefs from others. Not as "convert because I am right" central. :|

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Originally Posted by Xei

Yes, my beliefs are totally and utterly irrelevant to this conversation.

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Dude, that's not what this thread is about. As if you really care about what people of faith think about Heaven. You created this thread to do just what you're doing now. Once someone who believes in Heaven comments, then you curse them, try and belittle them to make yourself feel better. If you want to talk intelligent conversations then you need to practice what you preach because calling someone a "dumbass" and a "dolt" doesn't appear to be a piece of intelligent conversation. If I were to call you that, you'd have a hissy fit because we know you can't take the same treatment you dish out.

You cursing at members who oppose your views on this board stops here and it stops today.

Totally wrong. I created this thread because I had my suspicions before and they were roused by the mentioned conversation, and it would be highly culturally interesting if the whole concept of Heaven is a total mistake with zero support from the Bible. I called Mr Blonde stupid because he was stupid, he apparently made the huge logical derp of assuming the conclusion to answer the question. I welcome any intelligent input on the OP; if your input is stupid I will be honest and tell you so, and if your input is a totally and utterly irrelevant attempt to drag this thread down into the usual atheism vs. religion shitstorm, go away.

Except you didn't call him stupid. The words may have definitive meanings similar to one another, however, you know one has a much greater intensity for deprecation than the other and most would be fine with a critical 'stupid' than to be cursed at. Anyway I said what I needed to say I'm done with it.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

My post has nothing to do with the other thread.

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I understand that it's a post that's unrelated to that thread, but THIS thread has gotten onto a tangent and now basically nothing on here recently has anything to do with Biblical interpretation of the afterlife.

Although that seems to happen to all threads at some point :/

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Originally Posted by ThePreserver

I understand that it's a post that's unrelated to that thread

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All I ask is that you're consistent ThePreserver. Please go into the following threads and re-post exactly what you've posted to me. Otherwise I would think that you're being biased and one-sided.

This one
This one
This one
This one
And This one

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

All I ask is that you're consistent ThePreserver. Please go into the following threads and re-post exactly what you've posted to me. Otherwise I would think that you're being biased and one-sided.

This one
This one
This one
This one
And This one

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Touche. I too am guilty of tangentry. I apologize for that last post.

However, atheism isn't a faith, it's simply a lack of belief :/

Instead of arguing about and against people who spam shit, maybe choose to respond people who are addressing the thread properly instead of ignoring them, and instead ignore obnoxious users.

Thanks.

I (being the Buddha) believe heaven is only a state of mind.

Every disagreement we have can be tracked back to self. What brings the anger and fear boiling to the surface with hurtful words? When we can react with love and respect as One, we will be existing in heaven on earth.

'Heaven' is an inner state of Being or consciousness. 'The Kingdom of Heaven is within,' as Jesus Himself said - Luke 17:21 New Testament. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Spiritual Kingdom, the Kingdom of Souls, the Spiritual Hierarchy of Masters and Initiates, the kingdom immediately above the human. It is entered into through the door of Initiation. It is the consciousness which results from the union of soul and human personality. The mode of achieving that union is meditation which is the means by which the true Being, the Higher self or soul and its reflection - the man or woman in incarnation - are fused together in the soul-infused personality.

There is also another meaning of 'heaven'. Souls not in incarnation spend a greater or lesser length of 'time' (time is a physical-plane concept of the human brain) in Devachan, a state of unending bliss, while awaiting the call to reincarnate. The Christian concept of heaven, while somewhat distorted, relates to this experience.

Old thread, but Ne-Yo seemed kinda out of order here. Xei just posting a really interesting thread, asking anyone to find anywhere in the bible where it states that heaven is beyond earth, and Ne-Yo had to pull belief into it? His posts in this thread were some of the most ridiculous and inflammatory I've ever seen.

Anyway, hope I haven't made things worse. Just wanted to stand up for reason.

But on topic. Xei really interesting thread, a fascinating revelation which I can now discuss with my Christian friends. And not in a 'your faith is wrong' way but just that you probably didn't know this and it's really interesting, and possibly sheds a new light on religion and its evolution.

Unless anyone actually has found something in the bible to refute this?

Yes, my question still stands as something I would be very interested to get an answer to. The thread is rather unresolved, only a few people familiar with Christianity replied, and those replies seemed to have nothing to do with the actual question, even though it's a very simple one.

I thought I amswered your question adequately by stating that 'heaven' is a state of consciousness instead of the widely held belief that it is a place to be inhabited.


Edit: I was referring to the thread title, and then went back to the opening post and saw that your question was rather different. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by Prancingwolf

This is interesting. But what about Paul at the 'Pearly Gates', not that I'm into all the bible stuff. It's a liitle backasswards. BTW, who cares if the guy at the bar is gay? Are gays more philosophical :lol:

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Yea, but the bi's are more philosophical and spiritual.

I've talked to a couple of devout Christians I know, and they confirm that there is no mention in the Bible of heaven being after death; the idea of an afterlife is a relatively modern invention (probably because it can't be disproved). Also one of them told me that Hades, in the Bible, was a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem where they burned all their waste.

What about near-death experinces that say they saw Jesus? I doubt heaven was put in as to mean something else other than a afterlife.

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Originally Posted by MrBlonde

What about near-death experinces that say they saw Jesus? I doubt heaven was put in as to mean something else other than a afterlife.

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Sorry, I really don't understand what you're saying here.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Sorry, I really don't understand what you're saying here.

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I mean what about the cases where indiviuals experince near death and say they saw Jesus? I think most here are reading too much into it.

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Originally Posted by MrBlonde

I mean what about the cases where indiviuals experince near death and say they saw Jesus? I think most here are reading too much into it.

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Those people are likely seeing an image created by their minds, like our dreams. Who here has never been exposed to an image of Jesus in some fashion? Once it's in your mind, and you are aware that death is imminent, I believe it is likely you will see what you expect to see.

As for what actually happens...I like to think there always are...possibilities.

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Originally Posted by MrBlonde

I mean what about the cases where indiviuals experince near death and say they saw Jesus? I think most here are reading too much into it.

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What about them?

Instead of using convoluted non-sequiturs, why don't you just... get a quote from the Bible like the OP asks?

Apologies, I was just responding to the poster quoted. If I recall correctly the Lord's Prayer speaks of Heaven being where the Father is. Seeing as Jesus said it on Earth and knowing what we do of the afterlife we can deduct it isn't in Earth.

Go Jehovah wittneses :banana:

Interesting, but any idea why it'd be misinterpreted from an apparently simple interpretation?

The bible would lose a large part of its control over humanity if heaven was merely a mortal earth, no? lol <---- means it's a joke to any who are offended.

(1 Corinthians 15)50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, [3] where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by Xei

So, I got talking to this liberal minded (gay) Anglican at the bar tonight, along with this other Catholic guy. We were essentially debating religion and ended up pretty much agreeing. But very interesting to me is how the first guy exactly corroborated for me something that I've suspected before: the Kingdom of Heaven does not refer not life after death. It refers to Heaven on Earth; a worldly, mortal utopia. Statements like, 'by loving your neighbour, you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven' are NOT delineating some kind of convoluted reward system for good deeds after death; it's a simple statement that by living in the correct way (for instance, by not coveting money), you will create an Earthly paradise, and peace for yourself and others.

Show me where in the Bible where it says that the Kingdom of Heaven is the afterlife, rather than obviously referring to a moral code by which we can make the world a better place.

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I have an app on my phone called Olive Tree and I am able to look up phrases by a search in any of the bibles available on Olive Tree. When I search "Kingdom of Heaven" it has many passages in the bible. From my perspective it explains very clearly what the kingdom of heaven is and how to reach it. When I search "afterlife", "after life" ,"life after death" nothing comes up. Thank you for posting this topic I learned a lot today.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but the kingdom of heaven is the afterlife and it is also on earth. In revelations (around 20 or so) Jesusressurects the righteous dead and they reign with him in the kingdom of heaven on earth for 1000 years.