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Hi, I have recently become an Atheist. But I have a problem that I need some help with.
I am really struggling to let go of the idea of hell. I was raised as a christian and was one for about 14 yrs and I just now have become an Atheist. But since this thought has been imprinted into my brain, I am having serious trouble letting go of it.
If anyone has any points that would convince me to forget the idea of hell that would be awesome.
Well, if the idea of hell is imprinted into your mind, heaven must also be imprinted into your mind. As well as God, and whatever Christians believe in. Why can't you forget about hell, but you can forget about god and everything else?
Theres no more reason to believe in hell than there is Mordor. Do you believe in Mordor? If not, why not? Seems like a silly question, but it applies identically to hell.
What about it are you having trouble letting go of? The fear of it? How confident are you in it's non-existence? When I stopped believing in God I realized that even if a God does exist he certainly doesn't torture people for eternity just for not believing in him. It's such a ridiculous notion.
I would just recommend spending time thinking about it. Find what it is that makes you afraid of it and go into it. It irrational so don't worry, finding the truth about it will only make you feel better.
I would suggest not trying to forget about it, but seeing the truth about it, that it isn't real. Look into the psychology behind using ideas like hell. It's a trick to make people afraid which makes them more easily manipulated.
you have no problem labeling yourself an atheist, which by its very definition means no belief in god, yet you can't let go of the concept of hell?
you're not an atheist
Not true. I'm a total atheist, however I believe in hell. Just not the devil, or God, or heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhavoc
Tis a grim lot in life.
Hell is a concept meant for minds that for whatever reason feel it's necessary for morality to be dictated from without. For you to get over hell, you first have to ask yourself what morality means to you. Without hell, what purpose does it still serve?
I believe you are still attached to the idea of hell because there is a slice of doubt in your mind and the possible risk opened by this doubt is monumental. To overcome it, you must develop a sense of integrity based on a real foundation. This foundation must feel so solid that you'd prefer to face hell with your honor intact rather than give in to whatever omnipotent being is judging you.
Most atheists (or at least I) hit a phase where they think something like, "Okay, I'm not sure whether or not God etc. exists but I am a being of my nature and my nature dictates that I should act based on my experiential reality rather than some unreliable information." Accepting your nature enables you to accept any possible consequence. It is better to do your job badly than do someone else's very well.
I have a hard time believing this statement to be true. If it is, though, how about this: You were a christian, and then through some mental process (likely some form of critical reasoning), you came to the conclusion that it's time to grow up, or move on. Why not apply that same type of critical reasoning to hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
But like I said, I don't think your description is accurate. If I may, I think what you're describing is a knee-jerk reaction. Kind of like how someone who was beaten a lot when young can become withdrawn and submissive. Old behaviours and emotions that are no longer useful, but that were created from the beliefs you once held.
Or, in techie terms: Your cache is stale, and just needs to be refreshed. :)
Like others have said, I think you need to give more of an input... what do you mean by letting go of the idea? Do you still think it might exist; or is you still cautious about acting in certain ways out of a reflex; or what?
If it's ontological issues you're having, just remember that there's no evidence at all for it, on top of it being a very obviously superstitious and ridiculous idea.
Kona: you know why you came to your conclusion, and you know that the path that took you there was not malicious or evil. You know that you haven't acted immorally. If your child did something wrong, would you ever deem it right to lock your child in a furnace forever as a punishment? Of course not. And yet this God guy, who is supposedly wise, is going to do the same thing to you, for not even doing anything wrong; for just believing what your honest inquiry led you to. And the guy who's going to do this is also infinitely just and loving?? The idea is so blatantly a disgusting and nonsensical piece of propaganda, it really doesn't merit spending any time thinking about it.
Don't worry about the '23 minutes of hell' recording, it's an exposed hoax. People like the disgusting poster above are fine with using complete lies to psychologically manipulate you.
So.. are you 14?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kona
If so, I wouldn't worry about it. It's the raging hormones making you think too much.. happens to most young males at around that age.
I'm watching the vid right now Ne-Yo and it brings up a very good point
"The only surefire barrier to truth is to assume you already have it." Chuck Misler
We're not shooting the messenger, we're telling you the message is a load of crap.
The worst thing you could do right now is to restrain your curiosity and thirst for knowledge, because you might feel ashamed and doubtful about your disbelief. People tend to do this, so they get stuck in this unsure state of mind. My suggestion is, keep yourself curious and brave; embrace the idea of your own personal progress and surround yourself with scientific books, humorous materials and people who trigger insightful and meaningful questions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7C...el_video_title
Wouldn't an interest in the causal functions of reality be the ultimate praise of God's creation?
God gives us free will and the only pardonable way to exercise it is by tossing it aside?
Yes, you have free will to choose God or not. What choice did you make Omnis Dei? Are you with me or not?
I am certainly not going to follow you, if that's your proposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
Why would god give us the free will and only reward people who throw it away for the sake of blind, fear-based faith?
SUP NE-YO! Long time, no talkie. How you been? Since we're scaring the new Atheist with Hell to try to bring him/her back to the fold, I thought I'd jump in with the Buddhist model. Should we be making bets or something over which one of us nails the conversion?
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I'm using the common broad definition of atheism rather than the specific meaning of not believing in god.
As a former atheist I can say that athiesm is a metaphysical system just like any other. I wouldn't get trapped in it and would recommend attempting to get past the need for (always illusory) fixed frames of reference. The western 'zen' is a good tool for this. This doesn't mean any need to abandon science or any of the other trappings of the 'atheist' view. It's a very powerful tool in many situations and it would be stupid to drop it. The idea is just to be the master of your ideas instead of letting your ideas be the master of you. Put on the atheist hat when that's useful but don't be an athiest. Just be in the moment.
As far as hell goes, I would investigate the history of Jesus:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YbUEZfJJaQ
The relevant part starts around minute 25. Jesus was a Buddhist missionary and so we can gain great insight into his teachings by examining Buddhist scriptures. Jesus was only able to teach for three years. That's enough time to advance some disciples but maybe not long enough to train solid teachers. So the people that wrote the stuff down were viewing his teachings through the lens of a fairly savage substrate religion (the Judaism of the old testament) and a few generations of probably increasingly unskilled teachers. Things get distorted this way.
There is a hell in Buddhism so Jesus probably did talk about hell. However it works very differently. It is a place where you are reborn, live and eventually die. You can be reborn someplace else afterwords. It is not eternal. You do not have to believe in anything to avoid it. All you have to do is not go around murdering, raping, or practicing other forms of extreme violence. It is much more likely to be reborn as a 'common animal'. While this results in you wasting your precious human birth, you will have another one. It just may take a long time. It's worth being a good person.
That's the traditional, 'hell is another realm' view of the Buddhist (and hence Christian) hell. It's not nearly as bad as that which has been constructed in the intervening two thousand years.
Another view is that hell is a state of mind which can be arrived at in this life. This results from being caught up in anger, fear and hatred. It makes life a punishment. There's something to fear or hate around every corner and under every stone. These emotions interfere with happiness and contentment. Every little thing is reason for a fight or self-pity. Everything leads to pain. This hell is arrived at by letting these emotions take seed and develop in you.
The same meditation that you use to free yourself from dependency on metaphysical models (Christianity, Athiesm, Buddhism, etc) will also help with keeping the "hell" emotions from taking over. Since these are the emotions that create hell in this life and will lead to hell in the next life (according to those that believe in that hell), it will hence literally save you from hell.
So, if you do good things and don't to bad things you should be fine. There's nothing to worry about from Hell. Over time as you stop feeding into the fear of it, your belief in it will dry up, crumble to powder and be blown away in the winds.
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So whatchya think ne-yo? Did I do a good enough job scaring him? I hope he can't sleep tonight! Nothing gives me more pleasure than using fear to make people believe just like I do! I hope it works!
Removed comments that directly go against the stated intention in the OP. Any further such trolling will result in infraction.
Holy crap I didn't expect that many replies. Thanks for all the help guys, it means a lot that so many of you would reply to this. All your suggestions and stuff are really helping me let go.
Thanks again for all the replies!!!
Deleted personal attacks and off topic trollish crap. Everyone is welcome to express their opinions, please do so in a more respectful manner.
How exactly does one respectfully frame the opinion 'you are going to be tortured forever and you deserve it'?Quote:
Originally Posted by nina
Pose as a saviour or father-figure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Report the post? :whyme:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Thanks Nina!Quote:
Originally Posted by nina
Hey Kona, I was in the same boat as you. My parents are protestant, and I was raised protestant. Up until I was like 11ish, I didn't question whether or not God was real--more out of fear than anything. Then, I started to form my own ideas about the world rather rely on my parents', I began to branch out. I began to realize that what I was taught didn't make much sense, the first seeds of doubt were sown. When I was more about your age (assuming you're 14) I made the step to full blown atheism, though not with baggage many atheists carry (nihilism, materialism, etc.). I simply chose not to believe that a god existed for reasons that, since I first started doubting that God was real, had compounded until it eventually reached a threshold--after this point I saw no more reason in calling myself a christian. First I saw that I had been lied to by every sense in the word. Not everyone lying to me knew that they were lying, but at some point down the line, lying had occurred. The Bible had stories that were specifically picked, Hell as a concept in the Bible didn't really show up until the Middle Ages, the inconsistency with which God acted and reacted, the violence carried out in God's name, the fact that there were other religions that were fundamentally the same but were totally rejected under the guise that they were "wrong", the confidence in knowing Christianity was the right religion (though the penalty for choosing incorrectly is eternal damnation), the inconsistency of religion in general, how much money was being made by the church, the list could literally go on and be quadrupled in length--just to list a few of my grievances. And to those that said to me, "why not believe? Even if you have a hard time believing, all God asks is that you believe, so the chance that you may make it into heaven just for believing is worth it," I kind of just shrugged it off without trying to be offensive. If I wanted to believe in God, I wanted to believe in God--not pretend to believe in him, like some kind of coward, just so I could make it into heaven. Besides, if they even read the Bible, they'd know God is omniscient. If you only believed to make it into heaven, God would know, and I doubt he would be pleased. It seems like it sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
I let go of the concept of a hell before I let go of the concept of a god, so I wasn't quite in the position you're in now, but I understand the feeling. I can assure you that as time goes on, and you continually form more and more ideas of the world, the feeling will go away. I much prefer the feeling of doing good things of my own free will, instead of it being forced and therefore fake. Imagine it, sincerity of action. It feels damned good, and, in my opinion, is the most rewarding reminder that I made the right choice.
Oops! Kona, my first reply in this thread was really for you hehe. I confused Carôusoul's reply with yours, cause it sounded like something you would say after your OP. :)
You say you are an Atheist so why be worried about something that doesn't exist in your beliefs? If you are not secure enough in your beliefs to let it go then maybe you should think on it some more.
And I suppose the moment someone converts to Christianity they are supposed to have already read and understood the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhavoc
I think it makes sense that some people can intellectually reject religion but still have a lingering dread about hell and damnation. That stuff was designed to terrify people at the deepest level - it must be traumatic to children who have been exposed to it. Preachers who use those kind of scare tactics should be arrested for child abuse.
It's not that strange. It's an involuntary subconscious reaction similar to phobias or post traumatic syndrome. This is more of a cognitive thing though, but still involuntary. There are a lot of cases where people are brain washed in their childhood, and as they grow up they manage to change their opinions, but still aren't able to shake off the fears or disgust towards something/someone that was deeply imprinted in their brains.
of course they should, omnis dei. they believe it to be their eternal soul after all. what kind of person would treat that level of understanding like a weekend project?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
if a person converts to a belief system as ridiculous as christianity, then you bet your ass they should know what they're getting in to. lol...you go into finals half cocked if your only goals in life are mediocre in nature. awwwww dei, ur so cute!!!
>.>
what?
If that was a requirement for christianity, there would be like 80,000 christians, not a billion. The only requirement to become a christian is to get saved, and that means to feel the touch of God's love or whatever. After that, how deeply they pursue the details of the religion is their business.
Atheism is the same way, you become an atheist when you go through the revelation that none of that shit they taught you as a kid makes any sense. That doesn't mean you're required to instantly turn into a stubborn jackass.
right, and of those billion 'christians' around 80k are true believers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
saved doesn't mean to feel the touch of god, or whatever. lolQuote:
The only requirement to become a christian is to get saved, and that means to feel the touch of God's love or whatever. After that, how deeply they pursue the details of the religion is their business.
right, but it also means that you better have lost ALL your faith for a particular religion, not just a LITTLE faith, if you want non believers to take you seriously.Quote:
Atheism is the same way, you become an atheist when you go through the revelation that none of that shit they taught you as a kid makes any sense. That doesn't mean you're required to instantly turn into a stubborn jackass.
the very idea of this thread is absurd. Obviously the op doesn't believe in god, they have clearly pointed out to all of us that he is now an atheist, yet in the very next breath complains about not being able to let the concept of hell go. come on, are you fn' kidding me?!
this thread isn't even real :cowbell:
Why should someone care whether or not they're taken seriously by non-believers?
It's pretty simple dude, the bible doesn't make sense. Therefore anyone who thinks about it for too long is bound to start playing with atheism.
There are no other requirements to be an atheist than to look at the bible and be like "wtf?" THAT IS ALL YOU NEED and that doesn't mean you need to be free of conditioned concepts such as hell. It doesn't mean anything.
Furthermore, the only requirement to be a christian, a true believer christian at that, is to be saved which DOES mean to feel the touch of god. Certainly there are plenty of people who just go along with tradition but they aren't converts. Converts experience the touch of god, and whether real or imagined, they take it to be real. If a newly converted Christian were on this thread asking "I need help understanding the story of Abraham" it would be perfectly understandable, but apparently an atheist who hasn't worked out every detail of their new found belief system isn't good enough for you.
not good enough for me?
look, all i'm saying is you're not an atheist if you still believe in hell. period
good grief man, i'm not mad about anything here
wait, atheism is a belief system?Quote:
new found belief system isn't good enough for you.
Fear seems to stick with people... Is it related at all to a fear of dying, and not just Hell?
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
Atheism has to do with the lack of belief in God. It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in life after death - many atheist buddhists believe in whats usually referred to as the soul - or that consciousness continues after death.
Fears are deep, deep in the subconscious. If you fear hell, then a part of you still does believe in life after death.
hahaha i've never in my life heard of anybody's raging hormones making them think to much. it seems to me like this person isn't thinking enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
You have to remember that in the christian religion, Fear of God is a virtue.
That makes me want to tear my hair off, I hate people that misguide, knowing they're fooling others. If you want to be closer to something/someone you have to love it/him/her. Fear, divides, creates dependency. Love, unites, creates freedom.
Pope John Paul ll as well as Billy Graham discounted the concept of eternal hell over 10 yrs ago..... (" uh the church sorta made it up, to scare people") TV isn't ALL bad I guess
Karma however, is accepted by half the planet.... so .... where does that leave you....
Where is Hell? The core of the Earth? It will be cool one day, so that's not eternal. Is it in space? That's near kelvin 0. Does a spirit feel pain?
How do you get there without a God or a Satan? Where are the children sold into sex slavery? Point there being that I think Earth holds all the yin you'll ever need to satisfy the concept of Hell. Keep your nose clean, and hopefully bad luck will not find you on Earth.
To free oneself of the concept of theism only to adopt the concept of Atheism..
Such is to merely trade one set of chains for another..
I have been an atheist for almost 19 years, and I am still spooked out by the idea of Hell. From an intellectual standpoint, I see the idea of Hell as majorly illogical and clearly not real. However, the phobia is still with me on some level. I have never been able to completely shake it, and I don't know if I ever will. I was taught from a very early age that people who are not certain Jesus is the son of God and the savior are put into a fire to burn forever. That scared me out of my mind when I was a kid. I was brainwashed with something awful as a small child, and that sort of thing doesn't just go away, no matter how much logic you use.
My parents did not teach me that there is a Hell, though. My mother took me to church and Sunday school, but I went because I wanted to go. They did not force me. It was the Bible belt culture I grew up in that brainwashed me. They didn't even cram the idea of Hell down my throat. They crammed the idea of Jesus down my throat and had me believing the religion itself, and from time to time mentioned eternal torture for not believing it. Once I had been brainwashed with Jesus, the whole scenario that comes with him was in my head too. That was all it took.
I wonder if it is possible to get therapy and shake the remaining portion of my Hell phobia. I am pretty okay, but I want to take that extra step and remove the fear completely.
Find out all you can of it. The more truth you know the better. If it turns out that you do believe in it than accept your fate or be saved.
I have an idea. I have never come even close to thinking Islam is correct. Islam is parallel to Christianity in many ways, and it involves the concept of Hell. Atheists who still have some Hell phobia from being Christians can immediately think of the concept of a need to become a Muslim, worship Allah, and recognize Muhammad as his prophet when thoughts of Hell come up. That might create a strong association with Hell and Islam, which could diminish the Hell phobia because you can see Islam as a bunch of fiction that parallels Christianity. Similarly, former Muslims with Hell phobia could think of Christianity when spooky thoughts come about. It might be some effective self-therapy.
Come to think of it, I never had this problem. I was never heavily indoctrinated when I was younger. I guess that's what made the transition from believer to non-believer so easy for me.
I almost want to tell you to expose yourself to your fear. It has been shown that constant exposure to a fearful yet unharmful situations and things causes the fear response to subside in many people. but that's not easy with an abstract concept like hell.
Arguably, Hell isn't actually even in the Bible. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word "Sheol" was used and translated into English as "hell". Sheol was a place of all dead - both wicked and good - and similar to the Greek concept of Hades. Sheol was a shadowy place, certainly not a place of fire and eternal damnation. In the New Testament, the word we translate as "hell" is "Gehenna". Gehenna refers to an actual valley outside of Jerusalem where refuse was burned. Assuming Jesus didn't mean the souls of the wicked would eternally burn in a no longer existent valley, this seems to be a metaphor of what happens to your soul if you act wicked. There is also mention of a fiery place where the fallen angels were punished, but no mention of human souls going here.
Even if you were to believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, there is nothing there to indicate you should believe in Hell, except for as a metaphor. The fire and brimstone hell that Christians are taught was created by Church officials, who likely had no relation to the divine, in order to control the population.
Regardless of your belief in whether or not God exists, there is no reason for anyone who thinks for themselves to believe in a literal hell of fire and brimstone.
Hell is real if you believe in its concept... because you'll then be living in it on earth for the rest of your life. I'm sure others have covered how to escape from this loop. I'd also suggest you buy a book similar to the following:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpghttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...SH20_OU02_.jpg
Why would Satan continue to oppose God if he knows God is infinitely powerful and all knowing and those not on his side burn forever? Doesn't that absurdity disprove the whole concept by itself? It's like what the commedian Ritch Shydner once said Satan had to have said to himself: "God is infinitely powerful. He knows everything. He's everywhere... I think I can take him." That is just ridiculous.
UM, the thing to realize is that rational thought doesn't have that sort of power for a lot of people. Also, you're assuming that Satan is rational. Maybe he just hates God. Even people that do have rational thought can selectively turn it off.
WIth something like religion, it's best to merge with them and take the worst parts while pointing out the concrete damage that the bad parts do. Most people wont just toss this stuff out wholesale and nor should they.
I agree with most of that, but these discussions always raise interesting questions and perspectives. You can see in my earlier post where I said that I am not completely over my Hell phobia, and you have seen how much I have attacked the idea with reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
I have never even heard of somebody tossing out only the bad parts. Once you believe the teachings of Christianity, you either hold onto them or abandon the religion itself. I have never heard a Christian say he stopped believing in Hell but is still a Christian. Have you?
I see what you mean; however, it's incredibly difficult for me to understand how one may accept a concept in its entirety that has no logical or rational grounding, in that it's not an extension of basic logic and rationality. But then reject further rationality and logic when it is clearly an extension of basic logic and rationality, the basics which that person DOES accept.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
I forgot to address this part.
Even the most primitive and stupid animals on Earth have enough sense not to mess with something that will tear them up... when they know it exists. The fictitious character Satan, in the story, knows that God exists and once knew him very well, and he knows of his powers. That is not just about reason. It is about emotions and sense of danger. The dumbest of drunk rednecks know not to start fights with people they are aware can whip their asses. Squirrels run from squirrels who can kick their asses, and fish swim away from much bigger fish. Have you ever walked toward a roach? Was it rational thought that had it running from you?Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
So, Satan's reasoning alone and senses alone would tell him not to screw with an infinitely powerful being that will burn him forever for it, and Satan is supposed to have both reasoning ability and a warrior's sensibility. He has already seen Hell and knows what it is about because it is his home he has been in and out of for thousands of years, yet he has supposedly kept up the opposition to God the whole time? I call bullshit.
But I can tell from your other posts that you're a rational person. Does it drive you up a wall as badly as it does me when people do what you're talking about? That's because it's totally irrational. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Satan isn't an animal, he's an angel. Maybe Satan has principles and doesn't mind making a martyr out of himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Haha, relentlessly, I mistakenly think they'll understand if I explain it this way/that way.... I can't shift the thought that it's incredibly easy to grasp basic reasoning because we do it everyday......unless we're utterly insane. I need to stop....because such repetition isn't rational in itself. ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
Angels are supposed to be at a much higher level of consciousness than animals. Also, Satan's goal in his opposition is not supposed to be martyrdom. It is to overthrow God and become the ruler of existence. Despite his intelligence and senses, he thinks he can do that. It just doesn't add up.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
I like how you are playing Devil's advocate (literally and figuratively) and arguing for the rationality of the Bible. Good stuff.
I was raised to be fundamentalist Christian and later, in my twenties, became an atheist.
A literal eternal Hell and Satan was one of the first things I stopped believing. I was taught that we go to hell because we deserve it for being sinners and disobeying God.
It seemed to me that it would be completely unfair to punish someone for eternity for something they did during their short, limited life. And what's the point of eternal punishment? You can't learn from it. If God really wants everyone to be saved like I was taught that he does, then he shouldn't arbitrarily stop trying to save our souls after our physical life ends.
But ultimately I realized that hell is just a concept to scare us into believing and behaving a certain way.
I'm not arguing for the rationality of the Bible, I'm arguing for the irrationality of expecting rational arguments to overturn deep rooted beliefs unless they've done it already. Maybe it will work, maybe it wont.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
The fact that angels are supposed to exist at a higher level is irrelevant.
Perhaps the Bible is wrong and there is a way for Satan to overthrow God. The Bible is the word of God after all, isn't it? Of course this wouldn't be conventional Christianity but I've never met a conventional Christian to begin with. Perhaps This is especially relevant for someone transitioning away from using Christianity as their primary metaphysical model of the universe. They often do it in bits and pieces.
Also, perhaps "higher level" doesn't mean more rational. Does the Bible say that angels are more rational or are you just assuming that they must be because of your own preferences.
You're not playing devil's advocate? I made an argument against the logical foundation of the Bible, and you sided with the Bible. Is that something you ordinarily do in this forum? All I usually see you doing is making rational arguments against Christian reasoning. Now you are arguing that maybe Satan did this and is that in defense against my ridiculings of the Bible. Yes, you are doing that. What happened?
If "Maybe it will work," how is it irrational? Besides, that is not even what I am expecting, as I said. This discussion raises interesting issues about a very illogical book. Also, read this.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
Plus, it was a rational argument that got me out of Christianity and another rational argument that got me into atheism. It happens. I still have some Hell phobia left over, but nowhere near as much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
As for angel intelligence and insight, here's Daniel 9: 21-22.
while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding.
Angels can give people insight and understanding, but one of the main ones showed up for a nuclear missile fight against his creator with nothing but a sling shot and assumed he could win? Do you honestly not see the absurdity of that Christian concept? Of course you do, but this is fun. Carry on.
He's playing devil's advocate to determine your reasoning ability.
I think he's already determined that, but I agree he's playing devil's advocate. The reasons go much deeper, though. It's fine with me if he keeps doing it. I love a good argument about the logic of the Bible. He's better than most Christians at taking their side. I won't question his sincerity any more. I just wanted to make it clear that I know what side he is really on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
I'm certainly not arguing that the Bible is rational. I'm arguing that rationality is a poor mechanism to convince most people of anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
I wrote that poorly. When I said, "maybe it will work, maybe it won't", I was referring to the first encounter with trying to use reasoning to uproot a belief. If the first argument is solid and fails then more will probably not help the situation. While I favor rational thought as a means of determining my expected outcome of some situation, it is not the only means of persuasion and is not even an especially good one. I believe that this is one reason why thirty second sound bytes can make or break a presidential campaign whereas a serious discussion between the candidates would probably be ignored and most media coverage of debates concerns how the person conducted themselves rather than what was actually said or not said.Quote:
If "Maybe it will work," how is it irrational? Besides, that is not even what I am expecting, as I said. This discussion raises interesting issues about a very illogical book. Also, read this.
But you favor rational thought as a means of persuasion which is why you assume that rational thought is the same as "insight and understanding". I just think that it's a form of insight and understanding. Some of my most deeply held beliefs cannot be rationally justified.Quote:
Plus, it was a rational argument that got me out of Christianity and another rational argument that got me into atheism. It happens. I still have some Hell phobia left over, but nowhere near as much.
As for angel intelligence and insight, here's Daniel 9: 21-22.
while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding.
I'm not saying that it's not absurd, I'm saying that pointing out the absurdity of it is often a losing proposition. Also, since the level of insight and understanding of angels is greater than our own, who are we to judge their grasp of it? See what I'm saying? One can always come back with something like that.Quote:
Angels can give people insight and understanding, but one of the main ones showed up for a nuclear missile fight against his creator with nothing but a sling shot and assumed he could win? Do you honestly not see the absurdity of that Christian concept? Of course you do, but this is fun. Carry on.
Hmmm. Sounds like something I would do. But in this case, I'm trying to make a point, namely the futility of rationality as a means of persuasion in most cases, and especially those involving religion. So I wouldn't really say that I'm playing devils advocate because UM and I seem to fundamentally disagree here, though not about the status of the Bible as a rational document.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
I agree with this. Christianity, like most religions, is based on faith. If rational arguments could convert most people, there would be very little religion at all left in the world. How many people still argue for the creationist model, despite the overwhelming evidence of evolution? It's a scary thing to question your worldview and overturn your whole paradigm of existence - much easier to cling to whatever irrational beliefs you were taught as a child.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be willing to bet you rejected Christianity either as a child or teenager, and not just because of a rational argument, but because you are an intelligent person, began to think critically, and realized things didn't quite add up. Most people don't question what they are taught and subject it to skepticism. So, if someone is brought up in a Christian household and doesn't feel the need to scrutinize these beliefs for themselves, no rational argument thrown at them will convince them to reject their faith. It took me years of heated religious debates to realize I was fighting a loosing battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Universal Mind, you and Philosopher Stoned are actually on the same side of the debate. You both agree the Bible is irrational. Philosopher Stoned was just saying that discussing the irrationality of the Bible is pointless since those who don't believe it already see its irrationality, while those who believe in it won't be convinced otherwise by rationality.
I find this really interesting. I was also raised Christian. My mom was really hardcore with the hell and demon stuff. I was taught that I would go to hell if I sinned . My mom would show us pictures of specific demons that would attach to us if we committed a particular sin. She even burned my Metallica CD! Despite all this, I have no hell phobia. I still strive to live a virtuous life, but because of my compassion for other sentient beings, not because I fear punishment from "God". I did have a few years in my late teens/ early twenties when I lived a pretty hedonistic and selfish lifestyle. Maybe committing all the sins I had been taught to fear helped my overcome any innate, leftover hell phobia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
What form does you hell phobia take? Do you feel guilt or fear? Why do you think you still have this lingering artifact of a religion you rejected?
I was brought up in a Catholic school, and yet everything religious I instantly rejected without much thought (in fact, I might've thought it was deliberate fiction-telling) - I know that I didn't have a developed rational faculty at such an age, and so what intrigues me is this seemingly unknown catalyst that divides those who believe their religion from those who have spontaneously rejected it. I can see then it wasn't due to any conscious rational thought process, nor appeals to strings of evidence for/against. I just wouldn't believe it.
lol I say that, and yet have subconscious leanings toward some subsets of Taoism, Zen Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. From what I can gather, Tibetan Buddhism changes what it believes based on scientific findings on consciousness. I like that.
PhilosopherStoned, I totally agree that reason does not change the minds of most people about their religious beliefs. This forum is evidence enough of that. I like discussing and debating the stuff any way, though. For me, it was rational thought that changed my mind. It took repeated debates with my friends and my father to get me there, but they got me there.
Grod, a member who used to post here a lot, became an atheist during his time coming here. He told me that my arguments convinced him God is not real. Nobody else here ever told me that, but that one case shows that it can happen. I don't know how I feel about the situation. I love to debate, but convincing somebody that God doesn't exist was never actually my goal. That might surprise some people, but I see this stuff as fun sparring that I don't want to result in a knockout. Somebody out there quit believing in an afterlife because of me. That kind of sucks in a way, but at least he doesn't believe in Hell any more. I have debated a zillion other Christians here, and I doubt I put even a dent in the beliefs of most of them. There was another guy who said he became an atheist in his time here, but he said it was not a result of debating me. I can't remember his screen name. He had a cartoon robot for his avatar and used to complain that atheists were bullying him just by coming here to debate. I kept telling him that he was in the wrong place to play that kind of victim and that I don't ever debate an unwilling participant about the existence of God. He eventually changed his mind about the reality of God, but his victim mentality was probably evidence that he had major doubts in the first place.
Asking who we are to judge an angel's grasp of reality is like asking who we are to judge God's grasp of it. That is a point a lot of Christians raise. My response is that true logic makes perfect sense and that if it does not make sense to a fictitious character who is a genius, it is because the fictitious genius is not real. If somebody claims that "2 + 2 = 5" is a Pastafarian argument and asks who I am to question the Flying Spaghetti Monster's brilliant understanding of existence, I am going to respond that the Flying Spaghetti Monster cannot possibly be on the pedestal on which he is put. Similarly, a nutty angel who turns on his infinitely powerful creator is in a losing battle, but some neutral theists might argue that I am not on a level to know one way or the other. I say that they are supporting an irrational belief and that it is up to them to prove their claim. As I have said before, the burden is not on me to disprove a far fetched belief. The idea that Satan has a way of defeating an infinitely powerful being is not rational. It is profoundly far fetched and so far unproven. It defies the very definition of "infinitely powerful." I am on a level to understand what infinite power would be. Anybody who makes a claim which counters that reasoning has the burden of proof.
hermine_hesse, I was 16 when I became an agnostic. Two of my best friends were atheists, and my dad called/calls himself an "agnostic" but is more or less an atheist. They started debating me on the existence of God a lot, and they never convinced me until I had an argument with my dad at a restaurant one night. He asked me how I know God exists. I said that there is no way all of this could have just happened by itself (the leading creationist argument). He asked how God just happened by himself, and I said he has always been. His response was that maybe the universe has always been. I thought that response put me and the creationist point of view in checkmate, and I became an agnostic at that very moment. Since then, I have come across the theory that the universe had a beginning, so I don't use the word "universe" in the argument. I use the term "laws of science." I think they, or at least some of them, would have to be timeless/eternal.
I became an atheist due to a change in rational perspective also, but there was a strong emotional element involved. My uncle died when I was 21. He was pretty much my assistant father, and his son (my cousin, more like a brother) has been my best friend since he was born, which was six months after I was. My uncle had a rare terminal disease called Schleroderma, and it decayed him over a few months. I watched his immediate family and mine go through something extremely terrible while he was dying. We were all frustrated over the fact that medicine was still in the dark ages concerning his disease and that there was no cure or even helpful treatment. We just watched him die. At the funeral, the priest said, "God was truly with Mike in that hospital." Those were his exact words, and I will always remember them. They echoed through my head for the next few weeks, and I finally came to the realization that there is no way an infinitely powerful being that is totally good could possibly exist. If there were one, my uncle would not have died. I have never seen a way around that. Christians talk about "plans" and good things that suffering leads to, but none of it has ever convinced me that my uncle had to die. If God were real, he could give us whatever benefit he wanted and make giving it to us not a problem. If he couldn't, he wouldn't be infinitely powerful. I think it's that simple.
I think the Hell phobia I have is just emotional residue from when I was a Christian. It's like a fear of heights people have when they are inside a building or clautrophobia people have when they are in a room with an unlocked door. It doesn't make sense. It's just a primitive part of the brain acting crazy. My wiring must have gotten screwed up when I was a Christian.
touche, Universal Mind.
You're right that rational arguments do win other people over occasionally, and other times debating can just be fun. I guess I generally stay away from theological debates, because for a while I felt so frustrated by other's irrational belief in Christianity, than I would seek out debates with Christians and make it my ultimate goal to obliterate their beliefs. I would rarely convert people, but often became quite vitriolic and certainly made a few people cry. Even recently, my girlfriend kept referring to her "granny in heaven". She's not religious, but was raised so. I started debating her on the logic of believing her granny was living an eternal happy life with Jesus. Eventually, she burst into tears and admitted that I was right. She didn't actually believe in heaven, but it was easier to continuing believing in it then imagining her grandmother gone forever. It's a pretty intense thing to shatter someone else's belief system.
I'm sorry you had to experience that with your Uncle. I know how frustrating it can be to watch people other people chalk up the bad things in their (or other's) life to "God's plan" instead of using science, medicine, or rational thought to change what's wrong.
I talked a girlfriend of mine out of belief in the Christian stuff one time. It was one of the proudest moments of my life.
I'm ashamed Philosopher, you just killed her. ^_^ Though I wouldn't want to be ignorant and easily satisfied, a part of me wishes I was a true believer in Christianity - every day you wake up would be filled with metaphysical instilled purpose. This division is analogically similar to the meaning of the red pill contrasted with the blue pill.
I'm a fan of the Buddhism/Taoism combo myself. Every day is filled with metaphysically instilled emptiness and formlessness. It's quite liberating.
I'm a big fan of that too. It also provides good material for screwing with uptight people.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
If anybody ever bitches at you for not doing enough work around the home, like if the dishes pile up too much and stuff, just say, "When nothing is done, nothing is left undone." If they bitch about other stuff you have done or not done, ask, "Does the past exist? If it exists, how is it the past?"
Those are huge mis-applications of some very deep principles. Did you eat food and put the dirty dishes in the sink? Then you did something and something was left undone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
But then I did nothing. Misapplications? Shhhhhhh.... If I show them quoted text, they won't know anything about that "misapplications" stuff. Be cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
"Something" being left undone isn't the same as having done nothing though, now is it? You could have e.g. done something else. Don't shhhhh me when I'm getting up on my soap box. :P
Just keep quiet and act like you have never heard of Eastern philosophy when I am conning roommates, and all is fine. What matters is that I don't have to do the dishes or take out the garbage. That's what Lao Tzu said. *cough* I can show you where he said it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
Reprehensible.
I don't know if this has already been said, or if this is otherwise irrelevant, but here is my take on Hell.
First, where is Hell? Supposedly it is a really hot place, right? So, is it the center of the Earth? You think about burning for an eternity. Fire isn't nearly as hot as the sun; perhaps you would burn in a nuclear reaction such as our sun then. Also, don't you think burning in Hell forEVER is kind of harsh?
For there to be a Hell, there should be a God, yes? God/Satan...Heaven/Hell, you know. As for everything working out so nicely with Yin and Yang, could you do anything so bad that it deserved you burning in Hell forEVER! Perhaps some people, but could you? Also, if there is a God (therefore a Satan and a Hell), and if God made us in "his" image, consider this.
If God were a man, wouldn't he have made women want sex as much as men do?
If God were a woman, we she allow women to be drug around by the hair as they have been by man for thousands of years? I mean, men are capable
of horrors to women. Is that right?
God supposedly made a mate for all the animals, but didn't make a mate for Adam right away. Adam had to ask for a mate. If Adam were made in God's image, wouldn't God know that Adam would want a mate? If God is Omniscient, he wouldn't really have needed Adam to ask for a mate.
Anyway, does a soul burn? A body has mass, but the soul? I don't know. Why do we attribute physical qualities to a place in the spiritual realm? I can't make that fit in my mind.
That's just my take on hell.
TS: you believe in Hell, but not in the G man, Satan, or that? That means no one is in charge. ANARCHY!!!!
Hell is an idea derived from the Old Testament asshole God universe conceived to scare people. You will burn for all eternity for something you did during your lifetime. Isn't that a little extreme? Are there various "sentences"? Will you burn for 5 minutes if you were a moderate douchebag or burn a year if you murdered lots of people? If you murdered evil people, does that mean they're in Hell too? If so, are you evil in the first place? And also, if Satan is so evil, why would be punish like-minded spirits? Yeah, spirits. I assume you lack a physical body in the afterlife.
/my two cents
Here's something really depressing, the alternative to hell, which according to the bible pretty much everyone in the world can qualify for is nothingness, just fading away. I think that's a much more scary prospect, completely vanishing. People say that the idea of heaven makes people live a good life but the idea that this life is it, that there is nothing else just makes me want to live it to the full more, its one thing to die expecting more hoping/fearing what comes next and to die in retrospect looking back on everything and say that "ive really lived" and im ok with it ending. I would rather have the second option personally.
I dont find nothingness depressing so much as disillusioning.
So, what are you saying is worse, nothing after death, or Hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by the real pieman
^^ How the hell could Hell be worse than oblivion? The choice between perfect suffering for eternity and nothing at all seems pretty obvious...
Color me slow, but I don't know if you are being facetious. You think nothing would be worse than Hell? I'm just having trouble wrapping my mind around this idea. Is this really what you propose?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageous
You use the word "oblivion." Is this "nothing" or something else in this scenario?
^^ You heard me right, I think. "Nothing," or oblivion, by definition means that you are not there, period, so there is no "You" on hand to suffer Hell or to understand that you're missing anything. In other words, the choice to me here seems to be between "Never knew what hit him," and having, for instance, a demon slowly tear all your skin off, over and over, for all eternity with no chance of rescue or change. Given that choice, I'd be willing to sacrifice my Self for oblivion. You, I imagine, would opt for the eternal agony. Can I ask why?
You said, "How the hell could Hell be worse than oblivion? The choice between perfect suffering for eternity and nothing at all seems pretty obvious..."
I think it was a matter of how you intonate your question as to how it would be interpreted. We agree. The choice between perfect suffering for eternity and nothing at all is pretty obvious.
Sorry for the confusion ... glad we're clear now!
It was the pie man's quote that I still believe is saying that nothingness would be worse than Hell. The idea that nothingness could be worse than Hell is stupid on the face of it. Like the sadist and the masochist in a room. What happens?
Nothing.
Let go of hell....
Hitler did his best to kill as many of the people he didnt like....God takes all the people he doesnt like and tortures them for eternity...So, who is better? The one who tortures and kills, or the one who tortures endlessly?
Hell is the logical end to fear. Heaven is the logical end to love. They both exist here on earth.
Time to get over your fear buddy.
Explain. Who decides who goes to hell and who doesn't if not God? And if you haven't done anything to deserve hell, where do you go when you die if not heaven?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
He was just trolling.
*Shakes fist*
Hmmm. I'm gullible.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
Oh I have such sights to show you all. We can dance to the whining of thin flutes, played by blind idiot gods in the spaces outside of euclidian space
Trolling, indeed.
I don't believe in satan nor 'God' as such, but there is a hell, and there are.. other gods.
Just while we're on the topic I have no problem with reconciling my own idea of hell with an all-loving/all-forgiving god.
When you die, you're taken to God's presence, and he loves you, forgives you, all that jazz. But if you've done really badly in your life (and not out of circumstance, necessarily, purely out of what one might consider sin) then your own hell is there too in the all-revealing light of that presence. Because you understand what you did now; you understand the effects of your actions, the pain others suffered. You can understand it from all perspectives, each life relived.
And my oh my. God still loves you, even though you now understand definitively that you do not deserve this love in any shape or form. The guilt is a crushing thing. Whether it's eternal depends on your own personal views on the rebirth cycle and so on.
I'm an atheist, though. It's nothingness for me.
Fuck.
lolwutQuote:
Originally Posted by Lseadragon
I'll fucking cut you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia
Can't cut what ya can't catch. I'm slippery, nigga. Slippery like a trout! An I'm fast too, like if a cheeta an a lightning bolt had a baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lseadragon
So you can run n' tell that.
(but not as fast as me)
Yes I can. Have you never heard of knife-on-a-rope?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus of Suburbia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22yNaLdiGAQuote:
Originally Posted by Lseadragon
This is awesome...
If God Were a Firefighter - YouTube
I think your very wrong, existence is the last thing you have in the worst situations. Nothingness would be far be worse than hell, i think the other way is stupid because
1. Perfect suffering doesnt exist as hell doesnt exist the truth is our actions on this earth are all we have.
2. My own personal hell would be not existing, i think thats the worst case scenerio in any situation physical and mental pain is still a feeling.
Also, might as well throw in my atheist beliefs blatently:
3. Heaven and hell are awful things to live for and this ideas of heaven existing in the world have let people live horrible lives under the false pretense that they will be rewarded later on. The idea of hell is to keep people in line or their souls will be perminantly punished for all time in some cases denying their own human impulses to stick to these rules.
Wouldn't it being bad be something and hence not nothing. You argument explodes itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by the real pieman