PhilosopherStoned, I totally agree that reason does not change the minds of most people about their religious beliefs. This forum is evidence enough of that. I like discussing and debating the stuff any way, though. For me, it was rational thought that changed my mind. It took repeated debates with my friends and my father to get me there, but they got me there.
Grod, a member who used to post here a lot, became an atheist during his time coming here. He told me that my arguments convinced him God is not real. Nobody else here ever told me that, but that one case shows that it can happen. I don't know how I feel about the situation. I love to debate, but convincing somebody that God doesn't exist was never actually my goal. That might surprise some people, but I see this stuff as fun sparring that I don't want to result in a knockout. Somebody out there quit believing in an afterlife because of me. That kind of sucks in a way, but at least he doesn't believe in Hell any more. I have debated a zillion other Christians here, and I doubt I put even a dent in the beliefs of most of them. There was another guy who said he became an atheist in his time here, but he said it was not a result of debating me. I can't remember his screen name. He had a cartoon robot for his avatar and used to complain that atheists were bullying him just by coming here to debate. I kept telling him that he was in the wrong place to play that kind of victim and that I don't ever debate an unwilling participant about the existence of God. He eventually changed his mind about the reality of God, but his victim mentality was probably evidence that he had major doubts in the first place.
Asking who we are to judge an angel's grasp of reality is like asking who we are to judge God's grasp of it. That is a point a lot of Christians raise. My response is that true logic makes perfect sense and that if it does not make sense to a fictitious character who is a genius, it is because the fictitious genius is not real. If somebody claims that "2 + 2 = 5" is a Pastafarian argument and asks who I am to question the Flying Spaghetti Monster's brilliant understanding of existence, I am going to respond that the Flying Spaghetti Monster cannot possibly be on the pedestal on which he is put. Similarly, a nutty angel who turns on his infinitely powerful creator is in a losing battle, but some neutral theists might argue that I am not on a level to know one way or the other. I say that they are supporting an irrational belief and that it is up to them to prove their claim. As I have said before, the burden is not on me to disprove a far fetched belief. The idea that Satan has a way of defeating an infinitely powerful being is not rational. It is profoundly far fetched and so far unproven. It defies the very definition of "infinitely powerful." I am on a level to understand what infinite power would be. Anybody who makes a claim which counters that reasoning has the burden of proof.
hermine_hesse, I was 16 when I became an agnostic. Two of my best friends were atheists, and my dad called/calls himself an "agnostic" but is more or less an atheist. They started debating me on the existence of God a lot, and they never convinced me until I had an argument with my dad at a restaurant one night. He asked me how I know God exists. I said that there is no way all of this could have just happened by itself (the leading creationist argument). He asked how God just happened by himself, and I said he has always been. His response was that maybe the universe has always been. I thought that response put me and the creationist point of view in checkmate, and I became an agnostic at that very moment. Since then, I have come across the theory that the universe had a beginning, so I don't use the word "universe" in the argument. I use the term "laws of science." I think they, or at least some of them, would have to be timeless/eternal.
I became an atheist due to a change in rational perspective also, but there was a strong emotional element involved. My uncle died when I was 21. He was pretty much my assistant father, and his son (my cousin, more like a brother) has been my best friend since he was born, which was six months after I was. My uncle had a rare terminal disease called Schleroderma, and it decayed him over a few months. I watched his immediate family and mine go through something extremely terrible while he was dying. We were all frustrated over the fact that medicine was still in the dark ages concerning his disease and that there was no cure or even helpful treatment. We just watched him die. At the funeral, the priest said, "God was truly with Mike in that hospital." Those were his exact words, and I will always remember them. They echoed through my head for the next few weeks, and I finally came to the realization that there is no way an infinitely powerful being that is totally good could possibly exist. If there were one, my uncle would not have died. I have never seen a way around that. Christians talk about "plans" and good things that suffering leads to, but none of it has ever convinced me that my uncle had to die. If God were real, he could give us whatever benefit he wanted and make giving it to us not a problem. If he couldn't, he wouldn't be infinitely powerful. I think it's that simple.
I think the Hell phobia I have is just emotional residue from when I was a Christian. It's like a fear of heights people have when they are inside a building or clautrophobia people have when they are in a room with an unlocked door. It doesn't make sense. It's just a primitive part of the brain acting crazy. My wiring must have gotten screwed up when I was a Christian.
|
|
Bookmarks