Atheist group tries to desecrate a Marine memorial.

ACLJ: Decision on Camp Pendleton Memorial Cross imminent - San Diego Cultural Trends | Examiner.com

Two, thirteen-foot crosses that stand on top of a hill at Marine Base Camp Pendleton in California are now subject to removal because of an atheist group’s complaint. The crosses were placed there by seven marines to honor their fallen comrades. Three men who put up the crosses 10 years ago has since died in the line of duty. The families of these fallen soldiers are outraged by the atheist group’s pursuit to have the crosses removed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbJgrUfQL-g

So my question is this, why are atheist in my country so tyrannic and intolerant? Why on Earth would anyone be opposed to these fine Marines honoring their fallen brothers? Semper Fi. Go.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...e_1953790b.jpg

Why are all Christians mass murdering fascists?

Your thread is a pile of shit. I don't get it, were you deliberately trying to make yourself look like an absolute moron?

It's a bit much to post about this and then imply that all atheists are tyrannical and intolerant, as if every atheist in the U.S. agrees with the group trying to get those crosses taken down.

The answer to your second question is in the video you embedded. Technically the memorial is on government land and could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, which could then be seen as a violation of the first amendment.

I for one don't care about the crosses being there. My guess is that for too many nonreligious folks, once they drop the mythical god(s), they pick up another and call it the government. Then stuff like this happens. I'm not saying their claim is unjustified, just that there are a lot more important issues they could be working on than picking on a memorial on top of a big hill.

Unrelated: Ne-yo, why do you always leave out the "s" when using the plural tense of "atheist?"

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Originally Posted by BLUELINES

It's a bit much to post about this and then imply that all atheists are tyrannical and intolerant, as if every atheist in the U.S. agrees with the group trying to get those crosses taken down.

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That's quite interesting.

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Originally Posted by BLUELINES

The answer to your second question is in the video you embedded. Technically the memorial is on government land and could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, which could then be seen as a violation of the first amendment.

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I really do not think most people fully comprehend this, however, the first amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion. The separation of Church from State does not in any way imply exclusion of such shrines appearance on public or government property. The original intentions of separation of Church from State convey's that no one state-sponsored religion can be forced upon an individual legally and in-turn promoting itself as an official religion. It doesn't matter where any monuments, religious shrines or whatever are placed. You cannot be forced to adopt that particular religion, worship, pray etc.. nor can your religion or lack thereof; be held against you for any legal reasons.

? "tries to desecrate" ? "tyrannic and intolerant" ?

The hyperbole doesn't help your wounded bird routine. If US Christians didn't throw a fit and claim persecution every time it's questioned whether they should have hegemony over all realms public and private, maybe we wouldn't have to be so careful about Christian symbols in secular organizations. As things stand, it's very likely that the ginormous cross is used to endorse and/or enforce Christian culture in at least some circles at Camp Pendleton, if not camp-wide. The groups opposed are not pissing on any graves or demanding a laser hologram of Richard Dawkins in place of the cross. They're simply questioning the decision of some marines to use their comrades' deaths to advertise a social club to which all of the fallen may or may not have belonged, and to which current and future marines may feel compelled to pay lip service due to the cross's presence.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

That's quite interesting.

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Why? It's just the old fallacy of composition.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

? "tries to desecrate" ? "tyrannic and intolerant" ?

The hyperbole doesn't help your wounded bird routine. If US Christians didn't throw a fit and claim persecution every time it's questioned whether they should have hegemony over all realms public and private, maybe we wouldn't have to be so careful about Christian symbols in secular organizations. As things stand, it's very likely that the ginormous cross is used to endorse and/or enforce Christian culture in at least some circles at Camp Pendleton, if not camp-wide. The groups opposed are not pissing on any graves or demanding a laser hologram of Richard Dawkins in place of the cross. They're simply questioning the decision of some marines to use their comrades' deaths to advertise a social club to which all of the fallen may or may not have belonged, and to which current and future marines may feel compelled to pay lip service due to the cross's presence.

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The title of this thread is in no way an exaggeration, try not to get too sensitive and caught up in semantics. This group is not questioning anything, what they are doing is threatening a lawsuit. There's a difference, so yes they are trying to deliberately piss on this memorial. Have you even been to Camp Pen before? How do you figure it's ginormous?

The First Amendment issue here is that the government cannot EVER be in the business of promoting a religion. However, citizens are allowed to express and promote religions. The line gets very blurry and confusing when a citizen working for the government promotes a religion for his own citizen purposes while in a government setting.

If a family member of a dead soldier went to his government grave yard and put a cross by his burial site, that would probably be fine. Its just a citizen using free expression. If a soldier does it, things get complicated. Is he acting as a citizen with free expression, or is he acting as the government? It's a hard call. However, so many Christians are pushing so hard to turn the U.S. government into a Sunday school class that many atheists are feeling the need to fight them tooth and nail on the separation of church and state issue. If the push toward theocracy would stop, atheists would feel a lot more comfortable letting things like soldiers putting up crosses at government grave yards slide.

I wonder how most Christians would feel about a Muslim soldier putting up a Muslim symbol at the same cemetary.

By the way, "In God We Trust" needs to be taken off coins. It is a clear violation of the First Amendment.

I live right next to camp pendleton O_O

I think it's ridiculous and not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

The title of this thread is in no way an exaggeration, try not to get too sensitive and caught up in semantics. This group is not questioning anything, what they are doing is threatening a lawsuit. There's a difference, so yes they are trying to deliberately piss on this memorial. Have you even been to Camp Pen before? How do you figure it's ginormous?

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:chuckle: did you not watch your own clip? (the Navy chaplain name-checked my old Psych of Religion prof, btw).

And no, pursuing due process to have one element of the memorial removed does not constitute either desecration or "pissing on" the memorial. They're not asking that the entire memorial be removed--only the honking big endorsement of Christian faith, which all of the men to whom the memorial is dedicated may or may not have shared, and all of the men who wish to honor fallen comrades certainly do not share. The memorial will remain a memorial, and sacred in that respect, in the absence of the cross. Indeed, it will be all the more sacred for those who don't find reminders of Christian hegemony comforting or inspirational.

Come on Ne-Yo, pipe up. Why do you support the mass killing of innocent school children? I don't get it. :confused::confused::confused:

As long as the Government's position on the memorial is neutral, and they allow anybody else to erect their own memorials on such sites, religious or otherwise, there isn't a problem with it. There is no issue here, it's just bloody obvious.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The First Amendment issue here is that the government cannot EVER be in the business of promoting a religion. However, citizens are allowed to express and promote religions. The line gets very blurry and confusing when a citizen working for the government promotes a religion for his own citizen purposes while in a government setting.

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Except no one is promoting a religion, these are 'battle crosses'. There's another cross on Camp Pen that's been there for decades that no one has ever seemed to have a problem with that one. So why now?

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If a family member of a dead soldier went to his government grave yard and put a cross by his burial site, that would probably be fine. Its just a citizen using free expression. If a soldier does it, things get complicated. Is he acting as a citizen with free expression, or is he acting as the government? It's a hard call.

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The target of such an inquiry should be rather or not the solider is actually promoting a religion. Everyone has stated on numerous occasions that this is a memorial not a religious monument.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I wonder how most Christians would feel about a Muslim soldier putting up a Muslim symbol at the same cemetary.

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I wonder how most Atheists would feel about that.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

By the way, "In God We Trust" needs to be taken off coins. It is a clear violation of the First Amendment.

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You're telling me as if I can do something about that. Don't complain about it, move on it. Especially if it's really of the utmost importance and concern for your way of life.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

:chuckle: did you not watch your own clip? (the Navy chaplain name-checked my old Psych of Religion prof, btw).

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I watched it but since when did 13ft become ginormous? You obviously haven't been around extremely large things before like commercial airliners and cruise ships before.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

And no, pursuing due process to have one element of the memorial removed does not constitute either desecration or "pissing on" the memorial. They're not asking that the entire memorial be removed--only the honking big endorsement of Christian faith, which all of the men to whom the memorial is dedicated may or may not have shared, and all of the men who wish to honor fallen comrades certainly do not share. The memorial will remain a memorial, and sacred in that respect, in the absence of the cross. Indeed, it will be all the more sacred for those who don't find reminders of Christian hegemony comforting or inspirational.

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They all shared the same battle and the same journey 10 years ago and that's what the cross symbolically represent for them. They are battle crosses and just because you have two wooden objects intersecting each other creating the image of a cross does not mean it's religious in nature. What's next, you want to get rid of this letter because it's been know to sometimes look like a cross?

This stuff kind of reminds me of those Vampire movies. :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhqrjV8nF3A

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Except no one is promoting a religion, these are 'battle crosses'. There's another cross on Camp Pen that's been there for decades that no one has ever seemed to have a problem with that one. So why now?

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People don't always complain right away. Maybe the protestors didn't know about the other one or didn't feel enough support until recently. The same question can be asked about most protest movements.

I don't know much about battle crosses. They have nothing to do with the Christian cross?

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

The target of such an inquiry should be rather or not the solider is actually promoting a religion. Everyone has stated on numerous occasions that this is a memorial not a religious monument.

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I thought the issue concerned the crosses at the memorial.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I wonder how most Atheists would feel about that.

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Probably about the same as they do about the crosses, in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You're telling me as if I can do something about that. Don't complain about it, move on it. Especially if it's really of the utmost importance and concern for your way of life.

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That's crazy. This is a discussion forum, and I gave my opinion. Isn't that what you are doing?

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

They all shared the same battle and the same journey 10 years ago and that's what the cross symbolically represent for them. They are battle crosses and just because you have two wooden objects intersecting each other creating the image of a cross does not mean it's religious in nature. What's next, you want to get rid of this letter because it's been know to sometimes look like a cross?

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I'll take this tangent as you ceding that your use of the term "desecration" was inflammatory BS.

The monument bears very little resemblance to a traditional battle cross made from a soldier's weapons, but even those are meant to approximate a Christian cross. There's some argument to be made that battle crosses are a specifically military and not necessarily religious observance--a simple way of approximating a common grave marker. Whether the crucifixion-ready monument at Camp Pendleton was meant to look like a battle cross or meant to look like what battle crosses are meant to look like is a bit of a boondoggle. Being the size of an actual crucifix, it seems unlikely that "generic grave marker" with no reference to Christ's death was the intended effect.

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Originally Posted by Xei

As long as the Government's position on the memorial is neutral, and they allow anybody else to erect their own memorials on such sites, religious or otherwise, there isn't a problem with it. There is no issue here, it's just bloody obvious.

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As UM brought up, at what point are we talking about "the Government" [sic]? If a whole unit erects a cross in a military base, is it a stretch to take it as a statement that "We are a Christian unit"? If significant numbers of brass and enlisted express approval of said cross and encourage each other to go there and say Christian prayers, is it a stretch to take it as a statement that "This is a Christian base"? Would a recruit be mistaken in thinking they may face obstacles in that base and in the Marines as an organization if they don't profess Christianity?

Whether such a culture exists at Camp P is an open question, and a lawsuit seems a pretty good way to resolve it.

As long as it's all personal approval and personal funding, rather than state sanction and state funding, I really don't see what the problem is.

Officials in the military penalising others on the basis of religion is an utterly separate issue. If that is happening then it should be stopped, but I don't see anybody claiming that it is happening.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Why are all Christians mass murdering fascists?

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Why does Xei say stupid shit?

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

People don't always complain right away. Maybe the protestors didn't know about the other one or didn't feel enough support until recently. The same question can be asked about most protest movements.

I don't know much about battle crosses. They have nothing to do with the Christian cross?

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It doesn't share the same symbolic representation as Christianity.

Fallen Soldier Battle Cross - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I thought the issue concerned the crosses at the memorial.

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Yes so in this case can it be rightfully determined that the soldiers that put the cross up are actually trying to conform people to Christianity.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That's crazy. This is a discussion forum, and I gave my opinion. Isn't that what you are doing?

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I'm just saying, you made it appear as if you wanted me to hop on the first thing smoking to D.C. in order to push Congress to do something about this.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

I'll take this tangent as you ceding that your use of the term "desecration" was inflammatory BS.

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Why are you so hung up on that word???

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

The monument bears very little resemblance to a traditional battle cross made from a soldier's weapons, but even those are meant to approximate a Christian cross. There's some argument to be made that battle crosses are a specifically military and not necessarily religious observance--a simple way of approximating a common grave marker. Whether the crucifixion-ready monument at Camp Pendleton was meant to look like a battle cross or meant to look like what battle crosses are meant to look like is a bit of a boondoggle. Being the size of an actual crucifix, it seems unlikely that "generic grave marker" with no reference to Christ's death was the intended effect.

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What you're doing is ignoring the secular purpose of the memorial by asserting that the cross can mean one thing and one thing only and to assume that because it is the most paramount symbol of Christianity, that is the only thing that it can be represented by as the cross doesn't ad-hear to reality as well. Which to me means you're being willfully blind to believe that a cross cannot represent something other than a proselytization for Christianity (even despite the fact that there are hundreds of different Christian sects that does not even believe Christ actually died on a cross).

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Originally Posted by mooseantlers

Why does Xei say stupid shit?

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It's no big news for the basic meaning of a post to fly straight over Ne-Yo's head, but I'd've thought you'd've fared a little better.

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Originally Posted by Xei

It's no big news for the basic meaning of a post to fly straight over Ne-Yo's head, but I'd've thought you'd've fared a little better.

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Mistake #1

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Originally Posted by Xei

It's no big news for the basic meaning of a post to fly straight over Ne-Yo's head, but I'd've thought you'd've fared a little better.

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Cryptic meanings are often lost on the internet. Also WTF at those contractions. :furious:

If I say something utterly retarded which also happens to be analogous to something a previous poster said, it's highly possible that I'm engaging in parody.

The most pathetic part is that she's still holding a long term grudge over missing stars or something of that nature.

Oh look, somebody's run out of arguments again.

But on a more serious note that was a cheap shot and I extend my apologies. Let's say you and I bury the hatchet and call it a truths because arguing with you all these years over silly stuff is getting old. Friends?

On the basis of your conduct pretty much anywhere else in the forums I'd say yes, but the problem is every so often you make a thread in R/S like this where you'll do something scary like blanket labelling everybody who doesn't believe in God as 'intolerant tyrants' on the basis of a tiny number of individuals.

Sensationalist thread title is sensationalist.

Cognitive Dissonance is lacking, too.

A battle cross or battlefield cross is, to quote your own source, "a symbolic replacement of a cross on the battlefield." The cross it replaces is a proper Christian grave marker. Again, it can be argued that forming a cross from a fallen soldier's kit in the field has become part of a more secular military tradition, but the link between that tradition and the life-sized crucifix erected at Camp Pendleton is tenuous. Do you really mean to propose that anyone standing before such a monument would fail to connect it with the dominant religious tradition of the society in which it was erected?

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

A battle cross or battlefield cross is, to quote your own source, "a symbolic replacement of a cross on the battlefield." The cross it replaces is a proper Christian grave marker. Again, it can be argued that forming a cross from a fallen soldier's kit in the field has become part of a more secular military tradition, but the link between that tradition and the life-sized crucifix erected at Camp Pendleton is tenuous. Do you really mean to propose that anyone standing before such a monument would fail to connect it with the dominant religious tradition of the society in which it was erected?

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Well put.

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Originally Posted by Xei

On the basis of your conduct pretty much anywhere else in the forums I'd say yes, but the problem is every so often you make a thread in R/S like this where you'll do something scary like blanket labelling everybody who doesn't believe in God as 'intolerant tyrants' on the basis of a tiny number of individuals.

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That is so not true. I don't do scary stuff and my thread creation in R/S is equivalent to one thread per year since 2006. The last thread I've created in R/S was back in 2009. I don't spend a great deal of time on DV's as you already know so please don't make it seem as though I'm here all day everyday creating threads in R/S left and right with the intent to daunt Atheists. However, you gotta admit you can be a bit intolerant but so can I, so we're both guilty of this.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

Do you really mean to propose that anyone standing before such a monument would fail to connect it with the dominant religious tradition of the society in which it was erected?

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You mean draw the conclusion that the cross there means to honor Christianity and not recognize the fallen soldiers?

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You mean draw the conclusion that the cross there means to honor Christianity and not recognize the fallen soldiers?

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The point is to honor fallen soldiers with a Christian symbol.

People put up crosses beside roads to honor people who died in wrecks at those spots. Do you think those crosses are meant to symbolize Christianity although they are there to honor people who died in wrecks?

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

That is so not true. I don't do scary stuff...

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You told that deconverted guy asking for help with his residual fear of hell that he was going to burn in agony forever.

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Originally Posted by Xei

If I say something utterly retarded which also happens to be analogous to something a previous poster said, it's highly possible that I'm engaging in parody.

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Oh okay, but that doesn't explain the contractions.

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Originally Posted by mooseantlers

Oh okay, but that doesn't explain the contractions.

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He was being Satanic.

So an ordained member of the christian clergy comes on tv to defend the rights of a giant cross to be displayed on public land and you think we are going to buy it is not about religion? Of course it is about religion, that is why you posted in the religion forum.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Of course it is about religion, that is why you posted in the religion forum.

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:laugh:

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The point is to honor fallen soldiers with a Christian symbol.

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The point is to honor fallen soldiers with a battle cross. You and Taosaur both fall under the same delusional thought pattern thinking a cross can not represent anything else besides Christianity no matter where it's placed in this country and to reiterate, there are my Christian sects that does not believe Christ died on a cross.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

People put up crosses beside roads to honor people who died in wrecks at those spots. Do you think those crosses are meant to symbolize Christianity although they are there to honor people who died in wrecks?

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You just answered your own question. The real question is, do you think the flower crosses placed next to interstates where accidents occurred should be removed immediately because they could be construed as a government endorsemnt of religion?

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Originally Posted by Alric

So an ordained member of the christian clergy comes on tv to defend the rights of a giant cross to be displayed on public land and you think we are going to buy it is not about religion?

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So it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he is a retired NAVY chaplain and one of the 'soldiers' that served in Afghanistan along side those fallen Marines not to mention being one of the soldiers that put the cross up there? Please tell me you're joking.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Of course it is about religion, that is why you posted in the religion forum.

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What's funny is that the only ones claiming this is about religion are Atheists. So let me get this right, any subject matter that pertains to Atheists should go into another sub-form? Interesting, it kind of makes you wonder why R/S is dominated by nothing but Atheists especially considering we're on the 2nd page of this thread and ALL the replies have been from Atheists.

For fucks' sake, don't try to put something up for discussion if you aren't open minded enough.
A Christian cross is a Christian cross. This is about the closest to a battle cross a battle cross can get without importing symbols that may be directly related to Nazi symbolism:

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/o...bootsrifle.jpg

Though, I'm not a proponent of the action. If these marines were Christian there shouldn't be any problem with the matter.
And the atheists just complained. It's not as if Christians never complain about anti-religious matters, and it's not as if the atheists turned it upside down, poured fuel over it and lit it a fire, did they now.

But it's a memorial to good American Christian Soldiers, if you oppose it you must be an unpatriotic heathen communist.

On the flipside, I've known some atheists who can be total hypocrites, and speak just as dogmatically and single-mindedly as hardcore Christians. Side note - why the hell does the group have to be called the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers?
Assuming all the marines buried there were Christians, they are exercising their religion via the long-established practice of having their corpse buried under a cross.

I don't particularly like the idea personally, but I would not question their right to do it.

He put it up there because he is a very religious person and was a Chaplin. He probably blessed it and said a christian prayer when they got it up there too. Or do you think he just put it up a giant cross there and went, "This is a nice secular battle cross." Then went on his way?

Of course not. Battle crosses are religious, and represent the christian religion and when people place them they often say christian prayers and do christian rites. I think everyone here knows that it is obviously a christian religious item.

If it was a secular object, they would of just put up a large US flag.

Again, there is no question that the item in question is a Christian symbol. Even if it is also meant to evoke a battle cross (which is meant to evoke a Christian cross...), no one native to our culture could erect or view it without connecting it to Christianity. Nor would a non-Christian plant a cross-shaped roadside marker. That some Christian somewhere doesn't believe in Christ's crucifixion does not negate the cross's status as the most visible symbol of Christianity worldwide. Nor is this type of cross (cruciform) used symbolically anywhere in our culture except in connection with Christ and Christians, including when it is used to mark a grave.

BTW, a few people seem to be under the misconception that the site is a grave. It's a memorial; no one is buried there. And obviously, the people who were originally memorialized had no say in its design.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

Again, there is no question that the item in question is a Christian symbol. Even if it is also meant to evoke a battle cross (which is meant to evoke a Christian cross...), no one native to our culture could erect or view it without connecting it to Christianity. Nor would a non-Christian plant a cross-shaped roadside marker. That some Christian somewhere doesn't believe in Christ's crucifixion does not negate the cross's status as the most visible symbol of Christianity worldwide. Nor is this type of cross (cruciform) used symbolically anywhere in our culture except in connection with Christ and Christians, including when it is used to mark a grave.

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Ok, so do you also agree with Universal Mind that crosses placed next to interstates where accidents occurred should be removed immediately because they could be construed as a government endorsemnt of religion?

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

BTW, a few people seem to be under the misconception that the site is a grave. It's a memorial; no one is buried there. And obviously, the people who were originally memorialized had no say in its design.

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I don't see how it was misconstrued as such, the title in this thread clearly says memorial. One thing you're probably are not aware of is the fact that Marines adopted this hill to leave messages and such to honor their comrades killed in action, it's all types of stuff up there. Family members of fallen soldiers have hiked the hill to pay their respects, honor their loved ones and leave things as well. Not one Marine or family member of the deceased has ever complained about the crosses during the last 10 years it's been there. No one is going to the hill top to convert people since that's what you seem to be thinking.

Would it be okay to put up a star and crescent at the memorial to honor the possible muslims the memorial is dedicated to?

Keep in mind even if you agree, I'll still assume that christians around the country would react pretty damn pissy. For instance I have no problem with a cross going up at a memorial, but I'm not the official atheist spokesperson either. Thing about atheists is they do what they want. But as long as you want to blame the entire philosophy for the actions of a few, I'm going to go ahead say you're a sick fuck for what the westboro baptists do.

I'm not Baptist nor do I affiliate myself or hold the same beliefs as any new independent Baptists Church. Try again.

Doesn't matter, you're a christian.

I don't affiliate with this particular atheist organization, either. But you didn't name the organization. You just said it was atheists. As if we roam around in a big mob desecrating shit.

And besides you missed the whole point. The fact is, not only are not all christians baptists, but not all baptists protest military funerals. That's one, individual group

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Ok, so do you also agree with Universal Mind that crosses placed next to interstates where accidents occurred should be removed immediately because they could be construed as a government endorsemnt of religion?

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If it's put there by a road crew, and city council members routinely urge people to stand around it and pray, I might have a problem with it. The potential problem with the Camp Pendleton crucifix is that it was placed on government land by government employees and has since been endorsed to at least some extent by the leadership of the base. I'm not saying it has to come down, but it's worth a court having a look and making a call.

Honestly, I never had a strong opinion one way or the other about the cross. I just found your response to the topic absurd. You couldn't even get past the title without drooping your poor wittle wing and squawking *desecration!*rawrk!*persecution!*rawrk!*intoleran ce!* An eroding hegemony is not the same thing as persecution. This isn't Rome, you're not being thrown to the lions, and no one feels sorry for you.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

Honestly, I never had a strong opinion one way or the other about the cross. I just found your response to the topic absurd. You couldn't even get past the title without drooping your poor wittle wing and squawking *desecration!*rawrk!*persecution!*rawrk!*intoleran ce!* An eroding hegemony is not the same thing as persecution. This isn't Rome, you're not being thrown to the lions, and no one feels sorry for you.

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I'm not asking you or anyone else here to feel sorry for me. This hits home for me because I'm a Marine who did my tours in the sandbox and for some overzealous group of idiots to try and piss on that memorial created by fine Marines who protects their worthless souls, strikes a nerve. See for Marines this isn't about religion, this is about honor and respecting those who soldiered and has fallen in battle, even if people like you don't give a shit, just know I got something to say about it and will always have something to say about it.

You say that all the marines are fine with it but obviously one of them complained about it. They specifically said that you couldn't see the cross from a public location, meaning someone on the military base was the one who complained.

You are so quick to jump on the atheist group you have not even considered that it was most likely marines who complained to the group in the first place, and the reason they didn't do so publicly is because they would probably have gotten in trouble for it.

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Originally Posted by Alric

You say that all the marines are fine with it but obviously one of them complained about it. They specifically said that you couldn't see the cross from a public location, meaning someone on the military base was the one who complained.

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Well at least one of the people who is complaining isn't a Marine. He's a retired Army Capt. in which I'm pretty sure he holds an RMID and has the ability to access the base and MWR facilities.

Sounds like a personal problem. Ne-yo you are a christian, you can't make this issue about disrespecting marines in general because you can't speak for the entire corps. That's like saying repealing don't ask don't tell is disrespectful to marines, when in fact it's more respectful to many marines in the service. Removing the cross is more respectful to jews, muslims, etc who are serving their country.

What it sounds like is that you don't understand, which I don't expect you to because you're not a Marine. In the Corps it's not about Religion, it's not about black and white, No one in the Marines is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist or whatever, you are either a light green or a dark green. We live by motto's like "death before dishonor", "Semper Fidelis" (always faithful) and voice out Semper Fi! to show loyalty and commitment to our battle buddies-in-arms as well the Corps in general. There is an extremely strong dedication that thrives among Marines that you will never understand. Marines don't care about religious affiliations among the troops. I've served along side, people of all kinds of backgrounds, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, Asian's, Latino's, Blacks and Whites. None of this stuff matters in the Corps because when shit goes down we will all have each others backs regardless of what they believe or lack there of belief or where they come from. Every Marine possesses this mentality because we're programmed designed and built this way. The Marines isn't a military, It's not like the Army, Navy and Airforce The Marines is an organization and when you're a Marine you're always a Marine and yes I can speak on behalf of the entire Corps because it's MY Corps. Removing the battle cross disrespects the Corps and those within it's ranks, plain and simple. That's why it's not going anywhere.

IDK, have you ever heard the story of "The Boy Who Cried 'Red Herring!'" ?

Let me ask you a few questions, and I want you to think about this for a moment.

Is it possible that from your perspective, you have no issues with religious symbols in the marines, because you are a christian and so the majority of symbols support what you believe?

Is it possible that you are projecting this attitude, that you and the other Christians are comfortable with them, onto the non-christian marines?

Is it possible that the non-christian marines really do find them offensive or in poor taste but because of the strong connection with other marines they are to embarrassed to speak openly about it, and fear what might happen if they openly criticize the majority christian symbols?

It is easy to say there is no religion in the marines and everyone are equal as marines, when you are in the majority and dominate position of the marines. It is no fun if you are the one guy who feels like an outsider and that even though you try your best to be one of the guys you know deep down they don't really accept you.

It is really insensitive to those people to say that their opinions don't matter, and that they have to change them self to fit in with the Christians. Not that I blame you or anything. There is no way to actually know how they feel about the subject unless you specifically make an attempt to ask them about all these subjects. Though since you feel the way you do, I bet you probably never asked them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

What it sounds like is that you don't understand, which I don't expect you to because you're not a Marine. In the Corps it's not about Religion, it's not about black and white, No one in the Marines is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist or whatever, you are either a light green or a dark green. We live by motto's like "death before dishonor", "Semper Fidelis" (always faithful) and voice out Semper Fi! to show loyalty and commitment to our battle buddies-in-arms as well the Corps in general. There is an extremely strong dedication that thrives among Marines that you will never understand. Marines don't care about religious affiliations among the troops. I've served along side, people of all kinds of backgrounds, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, Asian's, Latino's, Blacks and Whites. None of this stuff matters in the Corps because when shit goes down we will all have each others backs regardless of what they believe or lack there of belief or where they come from. Every Marine possesses this mentality because we're programmed designed and built this way. The Marines isn't a military, It's not like the Army, Navy and Airforce The Marines is an organization and when you're a Marine you're always a Marine and yes I can speak on behalf of the entire Corps because it's MY Corps. Removing the battle cross disrespects the Corps and those within it's ranks, plain and simple. That's why it's not going anywhere.

---

If it's such a cohesive brotherhood, why not make the memorial more inclusive? I don't see any problem with leaving the cross up, but I think they should include a star of david, star and crescent and an atom, too. And hell, a statue of buddha and a flying spaghetti monster to boot.

I'm not trying to include you in the Fox News indoctrination ritual but I do have to make a quick rant, while we're on the subject. Changing Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays is NOT a fucking war on christmas, it's simply more inclusive. And I bet if someone mocked up a big ole atom at the marine memorial christians would petition to have it removed. In your language, they would be pissing all over the memorial.

Whenever people try to completely sterilize something of religious atmosphere, the ACLU steps in and protects people's right to practice their faith. The point is not to remove any trace of a religious belief, simply to make sure everyone feels represented. At least that's my viewpoint.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alric

Is it possible that from your perspective, you have no issues with religious symbols in the marines, because you are a christian and so the majority of symbols support what you believe?

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No.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alric

Is it possible that you are projecting this attitude, that you and the other Christians are comfortable with them, onto the non-christian marines?

---

No.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alric

Is it possible that the non-christian marines really do find them offensive or in poor taste but because of the strong connection with other marines they are to embarrassed to speak openly about it, and fear what might happen if they openly criticize the majority christian symbols?

---

I'm sure there may be some Marines that have their own personal concerns about Christian crosses in the same sense that I have my own concerns about a many of things not limited to religious symbols. However, all those concerns are irrelevant in the Corps. Marines have the ability to voice their concerns to OSCAR about any particular issue that they deem is so significant it becomes an adherence to their ability to perform as soldiers. These significant concerns and issues can be voiced in the strictest of confidentiality.

Furthermore, it's extremely rare that Marines voice any personal concerns. This has nothing to do with being afraid of what may happen but it has everything to do with the kind of discipline we engage in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alric

It is easy to say there is no religion in the marines and everyone are equal as marines, when you are in the majority and dominate position of the marines. It is no fun if you are the one guy who feels like an outsider and that even though you try your best to be one of the guys you know deep down they don't really accept you.

---

That's speculation because in all actuality you don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alric

It is really insensitive to those people to say that their opinions don't matter, and that they have to change them self to fit in with the Christians Marines.

---

Fixed!

I don't find this insensitive at all. Number 1, no one is forced into the armed forces. The moment a recruit steps off the bus to start their basic training, their opinion of the outside world doesn't matter and there will be a nice D.I. that will make sure you know this. Secondly, most who join the Marines are looking to a part of a group that saves lives and in turn they want their lives to be dictated by a certain code that only the Marines can provide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

If it's such a cohesive brotherhood, why not make the memorial more inclusive? I don't see any problem with leaving the cross up, but I think they should include a star of david, star and crescent and an atom, too. And hell, a statue of buddha and a flying spaghetti monster to boot.

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I've seen atomic symbols around Camp Pen, it usually means something that is bad for your health like hazardous radiation or some kind of chemical waste. :p Yea, it's bad for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I'm not trying to include you in the Fox News indoctrination ritual but I do have to make a quick rant, while we're on the subject. Changing Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays is NOT a fucking war on christmas, it's simply more inclusive.

---

I myself like a day set aside to give and receive gifts, buy stuff on 70% mark down prices, eat a lot of good food and spend time with family, I could care less what it's called.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

And I bet if someone mocked up a big ole atom at the marine memorial christians would petition to have it removed. In your language, they would be pissing all over the memorial.

---

I wouldn't have a problem with it but I don't think a huge atomic symbol on top of the Hill is a wise choice. It would probably deter people away, associating the possibility that the hill could be hazardous or radioactive. I know what you were getting at, but unlike you, I believe symbols can have more than one meaning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

but unlike you, I believe symbols can have more than one meaning.

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:facepalm:

Of course they can

http://www.proswastika.org/e107_imag..._corrected.jpg

But I can't exactly get away with tagging a swastika and claim I'm just trying to symbolize the infinity of time, now can I? Symbols are about communication, as you just said. Using a symbol with one meaning and claiming it means something else makes you a bad communicator.

But I don't think anyone would mistake something like this to mean hazardous material

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YxpqYNkyzu...6f9yo1_500.jpg

Random question. If "no one in the Marines is a Christian, etc.," why use the most blatant Christian symbol out there? Hell make an anchor and globe out of logs or something.

Eagle, globe and anchor.

My browser initially failed to load this first time. Perhaps it was trying to save me from this thread?

It's not as if I had high expectations but damn.

Use Chrome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

By the way, "In God We Trust" needs to be taken off coins. It is a clear violation of the First Amendment.

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I've been meaning to cross the word God off all my money, thanks for reminding me.

In money we trust

money = god

therefore it is correct

That's silly

No you're silly, you silly-buns

What the hell is with all the Xei-bashing in this thread? He makes a really good point about the ridiculous hypocrisy and sensationalism of Ne-Yo's post, and he is at first ignored and then later ridiculed for no clear reason other than people don't understand him?

I don't understand why you started this thread, Ne-Yo, if you are just going to ignore Xei pointing out a big flaw in your reasoning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mooseantlers

Why does Xei say stupid shit?

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Why does no-one get it when Xei is trying to make a point?!?

Xei bashing wtf?

It's just ne-yo being ne-yo. And Xei being xei. And I'm being me and you're being you and CEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELEBRATE GOOD TIMES C'MON!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

What the hell is with all the Xei-bashing in this thread?

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I don't really think there was 'Xei bashing', moose just didn't get it at first, and Ne-Yo has a habit of not responding to messages that he knows have a point...

On a totally unrelated (but somehow suitable) note, Levon Helms died :(

Who is he?

I called a truths with Xei in this very thread, I don't know why you got your panties all up in a bunch for.

talking to you Omnis Dei.

Edit: I mean Pensive

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Who is he?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDnlU6rPfwY

Also, Helms -> Helm. I always fuck up his name.

You. Are. Old.

That's already old by my age group's standards. However that doesn't make it not good. That's the band that Dylan did some of his best work with.

Oh duh, that's The Band. I don't why that didn't register.

Why try and jack my thread PS? that's not cool man.

Sorry Ne-Yo. I read the OP and the first page of posts and didn't figure there was a thread still going on. Did I miss something?

Yea, the thread that's still going on :cheeky:

Oh. What a faux pas on my part. My deepest apologies.


So why is this thread still going on?

No problem, I wasn't upset about it all. The thread is actually pretty much dead, everyone has had their say and people have moved on. :)

Right now I'm thinking about the next thread I'm going to create. Probably something involving evolution. :goodjob2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Right now I'm thinking about the next thread I'm going to create. Probably something involving evolution. :goodjob2:

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:facepalm:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Right now I'm thinking about the next thread I'm going to create. Probably something involving evolution. :goodjob2:

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Yeah. This was a pretty weak attempt. If you really want to watch a bunch of science people go off like a hornets nest, "question" evolution. I bet it will go on for ten pages before I get to come in with a totally off topic derail.

I bet it goes on for half a page before Ne-Yo beats you to it...

Seriously, please don't make this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RationalMystic

:facepalm:

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You just got here like a month ago what you face palming for like you put time in here. No one knows you, kick rocks!

I wanna know how one enters into a "truths" with Xei. Or anybody.

Easy

It is a pretty interesting typo...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xei

I don't really think there was 'Xei bashing', moose just didn't get it at first, and Ne-Yo has a habit of not responding to messages that he knows have a point...

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It's so weird how defensive I get of you Xei, for no reason.

Well, apart from the obvious reason of my enormous cross-internet man-crush on you

Tmi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Tmi

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Jealous

not

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Right now I'm thinking about the next thread I'm going to create. Probably something involving evolution. :goodjob2:

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Don't forget to bring up Kirk Cameron's Crocoduck argument. And the banana/soda-can argument.

Oooh that should be fun :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You just got here like a month ago what you face palming for like you put time in here. No one knows you, kick rocks!

---

I don't think that I have to be here for more then a minute to conclude that your an idiot. Also yes no one knows me, explain to me how that relates to the action of applying the palm of your hand onto the face with moderate force. Actually on second thought, don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RationalMystic

I don't think that I have to be here for more then a minute to conclude that your an idiot. Also yes no one knows me, explain to me how that relates to the action of applying the palm of your hand onto the face with moderate force. Actually on second thought, don't.

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I love you

Shit I just relised that liking that comment has serious homosexual connatations. :P
I have to admit though, Ne-yo does have a point. I should of at least given one post explaining how this thread is bs. To be honest before I viewed the thread, I actually thought it was going to show something genuine because athiests do get on my nerves (and this is coming from one).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Don't forget to bring up Kirk Cameron's Crocoduck argument. And the banana/soda-can argument.

Oooh that should be fun :)

---

Don't tempt me, and in the infamous words of Huey, my argument would turn your world upside-down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorant beliefs crashing down around you. Now, ask yourself... are you really ready for something like that? If you enjoy sleeping well at night, snuggled up nicely with your little delusional Atheist beliefs, you seriously don't want to go there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Don't forget to bring up Kirk Cameron's Crocoduck argument. And the banana/soda-can argument.

Oooh that should be fun :)

---

Don't tempt me, and in the infamous words of Huey, my argument would turn your world upside-down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorant beliefs crashing down around you. Now, ask yourself... are you really ready for something like that? If you enjoy sleeping well at night, snuggled up nicely with your little delusional Atheist beliefs, you seriously don't want to go there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Don't tempt me, and in the infamous words of Huey, my argument would turn your world upside-down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorant beliefs crashing down around you. Now, ask yourself... are you really ready for something like that? If you enjoy sleeping well at night, snuggled up nicely with your little delusional Atheist beliefs, you seriously don't want to go there.

---

Your presumptions about me sit upon unstable ground. As Xei or Pensive Patrick or anyone else rooted in concrete value will tell you, I am anything but a typical atheist. I do not hold evolution as some sort of faith. My experience proved evolution to me to degree so beyond mere proof and evidence that it now defines my philosophy on life. I do not see evolution in the works of Darwin or Wallace. I see it in the ever shifting moment and in the fabric of existence. I see it in feedback loops and emerging properties of reality. I see it in the way cultures think and mature and prosper. I even see religion as another aspect of evolution, adapted into place not based on the truth it holds but the effect the method of dogma has on society.

Bring it on. All I ask is that you meet me on level ground, do no preach from a soap box. And I will not do so either. Let us communicate and listen to each other, and then weigh in from there. Let us not approach this as an argument that must be won, but rather a transaction between foreign perspectives. For you see what happens in this dance of thought is, in fact, evolution. It is not dominance through competition, rather it highlights the fundamental truth behind competition, behind success and failure. Which is that there is no failure. Every time you lose a chess game, you learn another way not to win a chess game. Every time Edison's lightbulb design didn't function, he learned another way not to make a lightbulb. Therefore, do not fear failure. The most you have to fear is that you will grow... you will evolve. And so will I.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Don't tempt me, and in the infamous words of Huey, my argument would turn your world upside-down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorant beliefs crashing down around you. Now, ask yourself... are you really ready for something like that? If you enjoy sleeping well at night, snuggled up nicely with your little delusional Atheist beliefs, you seriously don't want to go there.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Your presumptions about me sit upon unstable ground. As Xei or Pensive Patrick or anyone else rooted in concrete value will tell you, I am anything but a typical atheist. I do not hold evolution as some sort of faith. My experience proved evolution to me to degree so beyond mere proof and evidence that it now defines my philosophy on life. I do not see evolution in the works of Darwin or Wallace. I see it in the ever shifting moment and in the fabric of existence. I see it in feedback loops and emerging properties of reality. I see it in the way cultures think and mature and prosper. I even see religion as another aspect of evolution, adapted into place not based on the truth it holds but the effect the method of dogma has on society.

Bring it on. All I ask is that you meet me on level ground, do no preach from a soap box. And I will not do so either. Let us communicate and listen to each other, and then weigh in from there. Let us not approach this as an argument that must be won, but rather a transaction between foreign perspectives. For you see what happens in this dance of thought is, in fact, evolution. It is not dominance through competition, rather it highlights the fundamental truth behind competition, behind success and failure. Which is that there is no failure. Every time you lose a chess game, you learn another way not to win a chess game. Every time Edison's lightbulb design didn't function, he learned another way not to make a lightbulb. Therefore, do not fear failure. The most you have to fear is that you will grow... you will evolve. And so will I.

---

Translation: "We're equally batshit but at perpendicular angles."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Your presumptions about me sit upon unstable ground. As Xei or Pensive Patrick or anyone else rooted in concrete value will tell you, I am anything but a typical atheist. I do not hold evolution as some sort of faith. My experience proved evolution to me to degree so beyond mere proof and evidence that it now defines my philosophy on life. I do not see evolution in the works of Darwin or Wallace. I see it in the ever shifting moment and in the fabric of existence. I see it in feedback loops and emerging properties of reality. I see it in the way cultures think and mature and prosper. I even see religion as another aspect of evolution, adapted into place not based on the truth it holds but the effect the method of dogma has on society.

Bring it on. All I ask is that you meet me on level ground, do no preach from a soap box. And I will not do so either. Let us communicate and listen to each other, and then weigh in from there. Let us not approach this as an argument that must be won, but rather a transaction between foreign perspectives. For you see what happens in this dance of thought is, in fact, evolution. It is not dominance through competition, rather it highlights the fundamental truth behind competition, behind success and failure. Which is that there is no failure. Every time you lose a chess game, you learn another way not to win a chess game. Every time Edison's lightbulb design didn't function, he learned another way not to make a lightbulb. Therefore, do not fear failure. The most you have to fear is that you will grow... you will evolve. And so will I.

---

I respect everything you've stated here and I think I'll start a thread where we can discus evolution. I can most certainly agree to these terms and I think it's go time.

everyone's a badass!

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q.../itsgotime.gif

I'll create the thread sometime on Sunday. :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmRAiUPdRjk

Well actually it's gonna be more like "20 men enter!"..lmao

I'm sure we're all eagerly awaiting whatever nugget of intellectual insight you can bring to the world of biology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Huey Freeman via neyo

my argument would turn your world upside-down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorant beliefs crashing down around you. Now, ask yourself... are you really ready for something like that?

---

It happens so many times that Huey says what I want to say better. I love that line. Not gonna like your post just cuz but I love that line.

The fact that you and I actually like the same something, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside anyway.

So tell me, how does something like that make you feel? Knowing that you made a statement that made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by no-Name

everyone's a badass!

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http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...usu/badass.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/11haqfc.png

You cunt! That should count as online assualt, fuck my shoulder!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...usu/badass.jpg

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Is that supposed to be Neil deGrasse Tyson?

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...onreaction.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Is that supposed to be Neil deGrasse Tyson?

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No, that's several partial Neil deGrasse Tysons.

I count fifteen unless you count reflections in which case there's twenty five. You misused the word "several" so evolution must be wrong.

Evolution is definitely wrong because bananas have soda tabs on them.

I don't know about all of that, but I'm pretty sure the conversation would be far more interesting than crockoducks and soda pop.

Honestly I don't understand why anyone responds to these types of threads.
Locked.