Thread: Atheist group tries to desecrate a Marine memorial.

A battle cross or battlefield cross is, to quote your own source, "a symbolic replacement of a cross on the battlefield." The cross it replaces is a proper Christian grave marker. Again, it can be argued that forming a cross from a fallen soldier's kit in the field has become part of a more secular military tradition, but the link between that tradition and the life-sized crucifix erected at Camp Pendleton is tenuous. Do you really mean to propose that anyone standing before such a monument would fail to connect it with the dominant religious tradition of the society in which it was erected?

Originally Posted by Taosaur

A battle cross or battlefield cross is, to quote your own source, "a symbolic replacement of a cross on the battlefield." The cross it replaces is a proper Christian grave marker. Again, it can be argued that forming a cross from a fallen soldier's kit in the field has become part of a more secular military tradition, but the link between that tradition and the life-sized crucifix erected at Camp Pendleton is tenuous. Do you really mean to propose that anyone standing before such a monument would fail to connect it with the dominant religious tradition of the society in which it was erected?

Well put.

Originally Posted by Xei

On the basis of your conduct pretty much anywhere else in the forums I'd say yes, but the problem is every so often you make a thread in R/S like this where you'll do something scary like blanket labelling everybody who doesn't believe in God as 'intolerant tyrants' on the basis of a tiny number of individuals.

That is so not true. I don't do scary stuff and my thread creation in R/S is equivalent to one thread per year since 2006. The last thread I've created in R/S was back in 2009. I don't spend a great deal of time on DV's as you already know so please don't make it seem as though I'm here all day everyday creating threads in R/S left and right with the intent to daunt Atheists. However, you gotta admit you can be a bit intolerant but so can I, so we're both guilty of this.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Do you really mean to propose that anyone standing before such a monument would fail to connect it with the dominant religious tradition of the society in which it was erected?

You mean draw the conclusion that the cross there means to honor Christianity and not recognize the fallen soldiers?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You mean draw the conclusion that the cross there means to honor Christianity and not recognize the fallen soldiers?

The point is to honor fallen soldiers with a Christian symbol.

People put up crosses beside roads to honor people who died in wrecks at those spots. Do you think those crosses are meant to symbolize Christianity although they are there to honor people who died in wrecks?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

That is so not true. I don't do scary stuff...

You told that deconverted guy asking for help with his residual fear of hell that he was going to burn in agony forever.

Originally Posted by Xei

If I say something utterly retarded which also happens to be analogous to something a previous poster said, it's highly possible that I'm engaging in parody.

Oh okay, but that doesn't explain the contractions.

Originally Posted by mooseantlers

Oh okay, but that doesn't explain the contractions.

He was being Satanic.

So an ordained member of the christian clergy comes on tv to defend the rights of a giant cross to be displayed on public land and you think we are going to buy it is not about religion? Of course it is about religion, that is why you posted in the religion forum.

Originally Posted by Alric

Of course it is about religion, that is why you posted in the religion forum.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The point is to honor fallen soldiers with a Christian symbol.

The point is to honor fallen soldiers with a battle cross. You and Taosaur both fall under the same delusional thought pattern thinking a cross can not represent anything else besides Christianity no matter where it's placed in this country and to reiterate, there are my Christian sects that does not believe Christ died on a cross.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

People put up crosses beside roads to honor people who died in wrecks at those spots. Do you think those crosses are meant to symbolize Christianity although they are there to honor people who died in wrecks?

You just answered your own question. The real question is, do you think the flower crosses placed next to interstates where accidents occurred should be removed immediately because they could be construed as a government endorsemnt of religion?

Originally Posted by Alric

So an ordained member of the christian clergy comes on tv to defend the rights of a giant cross to be displayed on public land and you think we are going to buy it is not about religion?

So it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he is a retired NAVY chaplain and one of the 'soldiers' that served in Afghanistan along side those fallen Marines not to mention being one of the soldiers that put the cross up there? Please tell me you're joking.

Originally Posted by Alric

Of course it is about religion, that is why you posted in the religion forum.

What's funny is that the only ones claiming this is about religion are Atheists. So let me get this right, any subject matter that pertains to Atheists should go into another sub-form? Interesting, it kind of makes you wonder why R/S is dominated by nothing but Atheists especially considering we're on the 2nd page of this thread and ALL the replies have been from Atheists.

For fucks' sake, don't try to put something up for discussion if you aren't open minded enough.
A Christian cross is a Christian cross. This is about the closest to a battle cross a battle cross can get without importing symbols that may be directly related to Nazi symbolism:



Though, I'm not a proponent of the action. If these marines were Christian there shouldn't be any problem with the matter.
And the atheists just complained. It's not as if Christians never complain about anti-religious matters, and it's not as if the atheists turned it upside down, poured fuel over it and lit it a fire, did they now.

But it's a memorial to good American Christian Soldiers, if you oppose it you must be an unpatriotic heathen communist.

On the flipside, I've known some atheists who can be total hypocrites, and speak just as dogmatically and single-mindedly as hardcore Christians. Side note - why the hell does the group have to be called the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers?
Assuming all the marines buried there were Christians, they are exercising their religion via the long-established practice of having their corpse buried under a cross.

I don't particularly like the idea personally, but I would not question their right to do it.

He put it up there because he is a very religious person and was a Chaplin. He probably blessed it and said a christian prayer when they got it up there too. Or do you think he just put it up a giant cross there and went, "This is a nice secular battle cross." Then went on his way?

Of course not. Battle crosses are religious, and represent the christian religion and when people place them they often say christian prayers and do christian rites. I think everyone here knows that it is obviously a christian religious item.

If it was a secular object, they would of just put up a large US flag.

Again, there is no question that the item in question is a Christian symbol. Even if it is also meant to evoke a battle cross (which is meant to evoke a Christian cross...), no one native to our culture could erect or view it without connecting it to Christianity. Nor would a non-Christian plant a cross-shaped roadside marker. That some Christian somewhere doesn't believe in Christ's crucifixion does not negate the cross's status as the most visible symbol of Christianity worldwide. Nor is this type of cross (cruciform) used symbolically anywhere in our culture except in connection with Christ and Christians, including when it is used to mark a grave.

BTW, a few people seem to be under the misconception that the site is a grave. It's a memorial; no one is buried there. And obviously, the people who were originally memorialized had no say in its design.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Again, there is no question that the item in question is a Christian symbol. Even if it is also meant to evoke a battle cross (which is meant to evoke a Christian cross...), no one native to our culture could erect or view it without connecting it to Christianity. Nor would a non-Christian plant a cross-shaped roadside marker. That some Christian somewhere doesn't believe in Christ's crucifixion does not negate the cross's status as the most visible symbol of Christianity worldwide. Nor is this type of cross (cruciform) used symbolically anywhere in our culture except in connection with Christ and Christians, including when it is used to mark a grave.

Ok, so do you also agree with Universal Mind that crosses placed next to interstates where accidents occurred should be removed immediately because they could be construed as a government endorsemnt of religion?

Originally Posted by Taosaur

BTW, a few people seem to be under the misconception that the site is a grave. It's a memorial; no one is buried there. And obviously, the people who were originally memorialized had no say in its design.

I don't see how it was misconstrued as such, the title in this thread clearly says memorial. One thing you're probably are not aware of is the fact that Marines adopted this hill to leave messages and such to honor their comrades killed in action, it's all types of stuff up there. Family members of fallen soldiers have hiked the hill to pay their respects, honor their loved ones and leave things as well. Not one Marine or family member of the deceased has ever complained about the crosses during the last 10 years it's been there. No one is going to the hill top to convert people since that's what you seem to be thinking.

Would it be okay to put up a star and crescent at the memorial to honor the possible muslims the memorial is dedicated to?

Keep in mind even if you agree, I'll still assume that christians around the country would react pretty damn pissy. For instance I have no problem with a cross going up at a memorial, but I'm not the official atheist spokesperson either. Thing about atheists is they do what they want. But as long as you want to blame the entire philosophy for the actions of a few, I'm going to go ahead say you're a sick fuck for what the westboro baptists do.

I'm not Baptist nor do I affiliate myself or hold the same beliefs as any new independent Baptists Church. Try again.

Doesn't matter, you're a christian.

I don't affiliate with this particular atheist organization, either. But you didn't name the organization. You just said it was atheists. As if we roam around in a big mob desecrating shit.

And besides you missed the whole point. The fact is, not only are not all christians baptists, but not all baptists protest military funerals. That's one, individual group

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Ok, so do you also agree with Universal Mind that crosses placed next to interstates where accidents occurred should be removed immediately because they could be construed as a government endorsemnt of religion?

If it's put there by a road crew, and city council members routinely urge people to stand around it and pray, I might have a problem with it. The potential problem with the Camp Pendleton crucifix is that it was placed on government land by government employees and has since been endorsed to at least some extent by the leadership of the base. I'm not saying it has to come down, but it's worth a court having a look and making a call.

Honestly, I never had a strong opinion one way or the other about the cross. I just found your response to the topic absurd. You couldn't even get past the title without drooping your poor wittle wing and squawking *desecration!*rawrk!*persecution!*rawrk!*intoleran ce!* An eroding hegemony is not the same thing as persecution. This isn't Rome, you're not being thrown to the lions, and no one feels sorry for you.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Honestly, I never had a strong opinion one way or the other about the cross. I just found your response to the topic absurd. You couldn't even get past the title without drooping your poor wittle wing and squawking *desecration!*rawrk!*persecution!*rawrk!*intoleran ce!* An eroding hegemony is not the same thing as persecution. This isn't Rome, you're not being thrown to the lions, and no one feels sorry for you.

I'm not asking you or anyone else here to feel sorry for me. This hits home for me because I'm a Marine who did my tours in the sandbox and for some overzealous group of idiots to try and piss on that memorial created by fine Marines who protects their worthless souls, strikes a nerve. See for Marines this isn't about religion, this is about honor and respecting those who soldiered and has fallen in battle, even if people like you don't give a shit, just know I got something to say about it and will always have something to say about it.

You say that all the marines are fine with it but obviously one of them complained about it. They specifically said that you couldn't see the cross from a public location, meaning someone on the military base was the one who complained.

You are so quick to jump on the atheist group you have not even considered that it was most likely marines who complained to the group in the first place, and the reason they didn't do so publicly is because they would probably have gotten in trouble for it.

Originally Posted by Alric

You say that all the marines are fine with it but obviously one of them complained about it. They specifically said that you couldn't see the cross from a public location, meaning someone on the military base was the one who complained.

Well at least one of the people who is complaining isn't a Marine. He's a retired Army Capt. in which I'm pretty sure he holds an RMID and has the ability to access the base and MWR facilities.

Sounds like a personal problem. Ne-yo you are a christian, you can't make this issue about disrespecting marines in general because you can't speak for the entire corps. That's like saying repealing don't ask don't tell is disrespectful to marines, when in fact it's more respectful to many marines in the service. Removing the cross is more respectful to jews, muslims, etc who are serving their country.

What it sounds like is that you don't understand, which I don't expect you to because you're not a Marine. In the Corps it's not about Religion, it's not about black and white, No one in the Marines is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist or whatever, you are either a light green or a dark green. We live by motto's like "death before dishonor", "Semper Fidelis" (always faithful) and voice out Semper Fi! to show loyalty and commitment to our battle buddies-in-arms as well the Corps in general. There is an extremely strong dedication that thrives among Marines that you will never understand. Marines don't care about religious affiliations among the troops. I've served along side, people of all kinds of backgrounds, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, Asian's, Latino's, Blacks and Whites. None of this stuff matters in the Corps because when shit goes down we will all have each others backs regardless of what they believe or lack there of belief or where they come from. Every Marine possesses this mentality because we're programmed designed and built this way. The Marines isn't a military, It's not like the Army, Navy and Airforce The Marines is an organization and when you're a Marine you're always a Marine and yes I can speak on behalf of the entire Corps because it's MY Corps. Removing the battle cross disrespects the Corps and those within it's ranks, plain and simple. That's why it's not going anywhere.