Cast the devil from knight13's poor head! In Jesus name!
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Cast the devil from knight13's poor head! In Jesus name!
What factual evidence are you making any of these claims from? Half of your references are from a fictional book thought by many ignorant fools to be holy (the bible) and the other half are out of your ass. Your ignorance and arrogance mix perfectly into one giant cocktail of stupidity that is quite interesting to behold. Tell us more of the angel lucifer and how he's corrupting our minds. He sounds much more clever than your god, who clearly is a shitty architect if you look at our universe. For example, during the time you read what I've written here, at least 30 stars have blown up with forces beyond your imagining and wiped out entire solar systems. Also, 99.8% of species that have come into existence on Earth are now extinct. And, just flip on your news and look through a history book and tell me what you see in human nature (we are god's "perfect" creation are we not?).
Your god is either impotent or evil, so if Lucifer is fighting against him I'll gladly join his side...
wow lol. someone's pissed off.
Lucifer did all that suffering to the human race in the first place. Envy and jealousy is not too pretty is it.
I'm sorry I do enjoy a bit of humor and fun now and then, call me human.
I can't believe you are threatening censorship already....that was fast.
To answer your question, not everyone follows god in their life. Lucifer isn't a follower of god.
First off I'd like to note that I'm not pissed off in any way, but actually quite interested in your fallacious logic and how it functions. The fact that I came across as angry to you, however, and tells me that my argument was quite effective.
Your response is invalid, due to the fact that you believe God created everything. That assumes that God created Lucifer and, since he's omnipotent, he knew that Lucifer would bring suffering to the human race. My argument then that God is evil or impotent stands firmly on these grounds, and again I'll throw in with Lucifer in this battle.
Also, you failed to take your perspective beyond the puny affairs of Earth and into our entire Universe, which clearly exists to anyone with a pair of eyes and an inclination to look up at night. Why would God create the entire universe just to see it slowly but surely destroy itself? Sounds like an evil bastard. Or do you deny scientific theory entirely and think that what we see above our heads is "Heaven" or something? Please, expand on your views so I can attack them with scientific evidence and deductive logic. Go on.
I wasn't threatening...merely reminding you that disrespect is against forum posting rules.
I'll remind everyone of the same thing now.
So...Lucifer isn't a follower of God. Any other points to make? It seems like we've gone three pages now and accomplished little. Is this an evolving thought or did you just want everyone to know that Lucifer is a bad guy?
You don't see things with only logic. If things were that simplistic, do you think a mighty angel that was given all the wisdom would fall from grace? You can rule a lack of logic out as your main problem there.
Secondly I see you have not read the entire thread so I will fill you in on that one. God wanted to create being of free will for them to be capable of love, which he desired them to have. The effect of that is they might choose pride or envy, because they would be sentient beings of their own. They could cause themselves suffering by their own misdeeds, and suffering of others too, for which they can be punished for. As well as good people rewarded.
I maybe wouldn't be concerned too with the rest of the universe until you are actually navigating it, for now you are pretty much on earth yeah? So earth should be the immediate environment.
I didn't mean you any disrespect it was just a joke. These debates can get pretty serious so I thought it was a good thing.
I didn't put a gun to your head and say you must chat in this thread you know. You are quite free to leave, it's a forum discussion it doesn't have to satisfy you. Or does it?
I admit I didn't read the whole thread, and I am not well versed in the study of Christianity, but is the point of this thread to call out devil worshipers?
I would think that God needs the Devil for his very existence; it is impossible for everything to be good and nothing to be bad, for the only way you can determine good is through bad and vice versa.
That being said, I don't worship anyone.
For the sake of knight13:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
I'd be happy to address each of your 3 points.
1) No, I don't think a mighty angel would fall from grace, nor do I think one would exist. This is due to the simple fact that I, unlike you admittedly, do see things only with logic. To be illogical is to go against Nature's greatest gift to us, the ability to Reason. It also leads you to false conclusions, as you have demonstrated thoroughly throughout your senseless banter in this thread.
2) This is where I originated my impotent or evil argument. Either god was too weak to create beings of benign and good natures, or he was evil in his action of creating flawed beings. This really destroys your entire belief system that God is the divine form of Good, and that he's omnipotent.
3) I'm glad you brought that point up, because I agree wholeheartedly with you. I, unlike you, don't make any claims about the world beyond Earth which are not based on scientific, falsifiable evidence. You, on the other hand, are making wild claims regarding things outside of our immediate environment. Where I hold no beliefs which aren't substantiated by scientific evidence, you cling to claims regarding the cosmos and the nature of the universe which have no basis whatsoever that I can see. So, my friend, I ask you: Which of us is it who is concerning themselves with things outside of our immediate, observable environment?
1) If logic is so competent, why is it still failing to connect you to god, and why isn't every logical person holy.
2) Free will is not a flaw, if a being has free will they can decide to rebel against god. That doesn't make them flawed, it just means they decided to be evil. If you are driving your car and you turn at a certain road instead of a different turn off. That doesn't mean your car is flawed or that the road is flawed it just means you are choosing the direction of where the car goes.
3) I don't require 'falsifiable' evidence of things. The scientific method is a social construction. That doesn't mean that I don't have the truth. Remember I know about the scientific method cause I myself am already an academic so I am quite familiar with the journals and have access to them. I already knew this is the reason for academia that if one isn't academic they have no authority. It's another tactic that is often used. Hence why I myself became one so you cannot say I am not familiar with it's processes or the so called 4 cannons of science and empirical research. It has it's limitations and in fact it is quite immobilizing as any researcher is aware lol. That entire process of going up the ranks and having privilege to certain knowledge based on rank, is in itself a luciferian structure.
Here is the story as I heard it in 1981.
God's first creation was NOT the material universe. He created a massive and perfect none-material universe peopled with pure, innocent and eternal creatures. Many looked like nothing a human can imagine but some were a bit human looking.
One of these wonderful beings, held magnificent wing-like apendages, high over God, during worship. This creature was full of light and he shone that light on the Throne during worship. This angel was called God's "light bearer" (Lucifer).
God had deep, meaningful relationships with all these extraordinary creations for millions or maybe billions of years before the fall of Lucifer (and one third of the Heavenly Host).
So
what the Hell went wrong (???)
Worship was an ecstasy far beyond human imagining.
Lucifer was the only one not facing the Throne because he was "The" covering Cheribim.
One day he accidently opened his eyes during worship. And the rest is history.
He should of told God about it. But I guess he thought he could handle it. God would have been aware of Lucifer's problem but God was never into controlling his beloved creatures. It was up to them to talk to their creater about any problems.
Lucifer's problem was that on that day when he lost focus (in worship ) and let his eyes open, he was "hit" with all those "mega-tons" of pure worship-energy being focussed on "The Creator" beneath Lucifer's wings.
He was soon addicted to the most powerful narcotic in existance in the universe.
The worship due the creator.
It may have taken several million years for that narcotic to change the heart of the pure, and glorious Lucifer.
His heart (imagination) grew dark as he realised that he could not live without his fix. Finally he said, in his heart (imagination) I will not rest till I have all this fix fix fix(narcotic) called Worship, for myself.
Lucifer had the highest intelligence as well as beauty. He began recruiting angels so he could ascend to the highest and become the soul recipient of all that narcotic-worship.
God let them choose and fight it out. sixty-six percent of Gods original creation chose their creater. One third chose the most intelligent and most beautiful creation, Lucifer.
God created the material universe and the Two thirds drove the one third out of the none-material universe into the newly created material universe.
Lucifer (and the one third) may have lived in the material universe a long time before the creator made our corner of the material universe.
Finally God said "let us make man in our own image. (Some believe he was talking to Jesus and the Holy Spirit)
Later he told this new creation to be fruitful and multiply and re-plenish the Earth. This (re-) implies that the Earth had been previously inhabited.
Lucifer came to Earth looking for worshipers. He was/is as addicted to worship as ...
Love is the Drug
***
Love Is The Drug - Roxy Music - YouTube
***(4:05)
Loving what brought us into being takes us home. Because love is the key that reconnects us to our source.
Love is all you need.
Lucifer's problem is that he disconnected himself from His Source and is running around trying to get everyone to worship him and satisfy his addiction.
Satan means "accuser".
He sees his darkness in everyone that he looks at. So he accuses them of theire sin day and night. His addiction locks him into that delusion.
But
That is his problem. It is not your problem or my problem.
Our job is to give up our addictions and Love the source. And "BE" home Here and Now.
The reason Lucifer is now so dark and empty and lost is because he is addicted to Love. But he is addicted to his followers loving him. He don't love his followers or anyone or any thing (let alone his original creator):
Addicted to Love
***
Robert Palmer - Addicted To Love - YouTube
***
There is no Truth or lasting Satisfaction in addiction. One day Satan will wake-up to that ... I believe.
Not to mention his musical ability. What a waste that he would use it on himself instead of god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPoyezWAghE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix08f9qDkk8
I know I said I was leaving this thread, but I kept thinking about the question: what is the point of this thread, it's not like we will persuade oneanother, and I realized that the real intended audience of most of my comments are the lurkers, especially young people who are like I was 20 years ago, trying to decide what to believe and whether a change in their paradigm is in order, asking themselves: who do I want to be? Which beliefs do I want to stand for? And the reason why I participated in this thread was to reinforce that one can be a Christian and open-minded and tolerant - there are different ways of interpreting faith, and you have to decide what you choose to believe in or not, each of you for yourself. Some of us have already chosen our beliefs, some of us are willing to continue questioning our beliefs or not, but there are people out there who may be reading this thread, and have not decided yet, and if you are one of those, I ask you to choose carefully, what you believe in or do not.
Couldn't help but notice, that you have changed your avatar. So the coat of arms was sufficiently burned? Is the same thing happening to the cross now? Just curious, because that sounds like you contradicting yourself.Quote:
So your coat of arms of Armenia means that you worship government of Armenia? Did you know, that those ancient armenian symbols are from time of kingdoms that predate christ? Like pagan symbols? Same as sun and cat?
???
how do you know that your god is the good one?
you can not say anything about religion/spirituality if you have a closed mind, if your gonna say that Lucifer is all bad & evil then you better have more than just the bible for a reference. Remember no religion is THE religion.
there is a lot of info out there that the Vatican keeps from us that being said if you think otherwise you'r a fool, for all we know we should thank Lucifer for doing what he did to Adam & Eve, if it wasn't for him we would still be sheep to Jehovah, after it's my opinion that Jehovah is the jealous one, there's a lot of names for Lucifer but regardless the name the story is the same:
Prometheus from Greek mythology gave fire to mankind & got casted out from the other gods for enlightening us, there's a reason that lucifer is also called the light bringer.
just face that we would never know the WHOLE & TRUE Story as to what is what, it is what it is.
in the end just be good & respect other people & you should do good especially if you believe the RHP/Christian version of heaven & hell
I thought the cross would be more appropriate since it's a bout Christianity. When I said about coat of arms it being burned I was talking about all the times it has been used subversively to restore it to proper meaning. Kind of the opposite of what Hitler did to the swastika. Besides that I think the coat of arms is attractive and it's a shame that it has been so misused. Your tone is rather critical, as if you are implying I did something wrong.
The true account is that when Lucifer found out that man was to inherit the earth he was pretty jealous and set out to destroy adam and eve, he manipulated them into disobeying god so they would be punished and he would then inherit the earth instead. Unfortunately for Lucifer god was not pleased with this type of manipulation. But neither was he pleased with adam and eve for disobedience. Even though Lucifer achieved throwing adam and eve out of paradise, and placing himself in the position of power. God still had a plan to restore man and womans inheritance of earth through Jesus christ. The second coming will restore mans inheritance of earth. That is what they mean by being saved through the sacrifice of Jesus, because he was willing to take on the mistakes, and god was pleased such an act of love for mankind, and so it leaves the way open for mankind to be save again and receive gods kingdom back. But for Lucifer and his attempt to stop this, puts him in danger of hellfire.
I know Jesus Christ is lord, because that's just what I was elected to see as a person of god. And if you are of god you will find it.
My other thread to atheist was closed. So this has to be for atheist and followers of Lucifer. (2 different groups, hence the different threads)
When it says about eating the forbidden fruit. That is a reference to seeing the works of disobedience through knowledge, (and also seeing the good ofcourse) and through disobedience came death and a separation from god.
If it's hard to understand how a sacrifice of Jesus would save mankind. Think of it in terms like this. You have 3 best friends, one of those friends betray you badly, so you no longer are friends. But what happens if the other best friend who you still trust and admire, love a lot, does something for the one that betrayed in an effort to reach back out to them so they may again be friends? Naturally, you tend to forgive and let that other person back into your circle of friends if they accept the offer. Same principle as that but on a way bigger and more massive scale.
Those who do not accept Christs offer to accept the Lord, will not be able to enter the kingdom of god.
***Please start using the Multi-quote button on right side to reply to more than one quote in one reply. Unles that would make your reply a mile long***
The other thread was closed so I will post here.
We can in fact disprove a great deal of stuff in the bible. Starting with the creation of the world, which did not happen in the way bible describes. The bible was written people with absolutely no understanding of the world. For one the bible says the earth is surrounded by a large dome, and there is a sea in outer space and when angels open the windows of the dome the space rain falls to the earth and that is how we get rain. This is totally ridiculous. And of course the order of everything else created is totally wrong, it is all just gibberish compared to modern science.
Secondly the bible actually tries to give an account actual people living and their relationship to Adam and Eve and people have calculated the age of the earth based on those people listed and calculated that if the bible was true the age of the earth would be like 7000 years. And it doesn't matter how you adjust the numbers or calculate it, since it could be 15,000 years and it doesn't matter. No matter which number you pick it is totally ridiculous compared to the actual age of the earth of 4.54 billion years. Also we have evidence of humans living on earth before the bible says it was even created, how is that possible?
So lets talk about the great flood. It is simply impossible. Where did the water come from? Where did it go after? there isn't enough water on earth to flood the world and the idea is just silly. The people who wrote the bible didn't know about the water cycle and so going back to the space water, they thought there was an unlimited supply of water in the heavens that could rain down on them, which there isn't. The flood couldn't have happened and there isn't even evidence of a world flood, and there would be if it had happened.
Then there is the huge numbers of Jews that were slaves in Egypt and escaped with Moses. That never happened. There is no evidence that the group was slaves, that the group ever existed, that they ever left, or that a large group of people were ever wandering the desert. If such a thing happened, there would be evidence of it, but nope. There isn't any at all. It is just made up.
I could go on and on listing errors in the bible, where it contradicts it self, and goes against science and history but let me just put it this way. We can prove the bible is man made because the church admits it. You are aware of the fact that the bible was put together by a voting processes don't you? A group of people came together and took all the different stories that were around and they voted on which would be in the bible and which would not be. They voted. God didn't have a say, humans voted on what would make up the bible. Did you know there are holy texts that were edited out and didn't make the bible? The bible being the perfect word of god is kind of in doubt when humans voted on what would be in the bible and what wouldn't be, and they cut stuff out.
There is a lot of stuff that disproves the events in the bible, and it is unlikely that most ever happened. They make up cities and people that never existed. Though lets move away from that subject for a moment, because there is another issue I want to discuss. The idea that Jesus sacrificed him self for us. Let me ask, what exactly did Jesus sacrifice? He didn't sacrifice his life because he was reborn. He took on some pain but was rewarded by going to rule in heaven. How is that a sacrifice? If you personally benefit from something it isn't a sacrifice, it is a trade.
So Jesus traded a few days of pain for eternal life and ruler of heaven? How is that a sacrifice? He made out like a bandit in that deal. Pretty much everyone would take that deal, it isn't a sacrifice. Also why is there such an imbalance in the time a person spends in hell and the time Jesus was dead? Jesus was supposed to take the punishment of all humans that existed and will exist, yet he was only dead for a couple of days? I die I go to hell for eternity, Jesus accepts all punishment for billions of people and he is done in 2 days? What the heck is that? Clearly Jesus didn't accept all our sins.
Jesus didn't make a sacrifice. You can try to spin the story all you want, but there is no way around it. Temporarily dying and then becoming ruler of heaven isn't a sacrifice in any sense of the word. To sacrifice means to give up without gain. He didn't give anything up and he gained a ton of stuff from it. Christians seems to miss the glaring flaw in the sacrifice of Jesus, in that he never actually sacrifices anything.
Do y'all really think you're going to convince each other?
I do, because all you really need to do is create a small seed of doubt. The reason religions so hate the idea of people questioning it, is because if you question it you will see the flaws. The flaws are so massive that you are bound to eventually reject the religion once you start thinking logically about it's claims. That is why it is a sin to question and doubt your faith because they know once you start down the path you will realize the truth. You have to ask your self though, why would it be a sin to ask questions? Why is it a sin to question your faith? How can thinking be a sin?
You can't expect people who been brainwashed with religion to change overnight though. He is already going down the path towards atheism, since he seems to be actually reading the posts, and just not ignoring them. It is just a matter of time before he sees all the holes in the religion and realizes the truth. So he might not change today but that is okay, he just needs to think. That is all I want, is for people to think about it. Might be a year or even a few years before he finally gives up his religion, since it is often so deeply embedded in people but I think it will happen.
The only reason he is reading your posts is so he can argue with them, and I'd venture to say that you are doing the same thing. Doubtless kinght31 also thinks he's planting "seeds of doubt" in your mind. I'm sure both of you have heard every argument from both sides a million times already. As someone who takes religion and spirituality seriously, these kinds of threads (which each side takes advantage of to attack the others' beliefs) just piss me off.
What exactly is wrong about them? Lucifer was not created to temp people, he was created as an angel to serve God. He defied god and god kicked him out. some say he tried to take over heaven but that's seems like an exaggeration of what's in the bible. They talk about a war in the movie Dogma(good movie, I think you'd probably like it). There is absolutely no mention of hell or temptation in the passages bible scholars claim are talking about lucifer(I don't even see why they claim that these passages are talking about an angel at all). Most of the ideas behind Satan and hell are myths that have been accumulated over time. They are not a part of Christ's teachings or of the Jewish tradition those teachings come from. They come from folk religions that were incorporated into Christianity after it became an official religion of the Roman and other empires. (Did you know that easter (Ishtar) was originally a fertility holiday stolen from another religion).
I may be an atheist but I went to 12 years of catholic school.
Not that I really care since these are not real events but myths. I just don't like to see people make ad hominem attacks
1) This has absolutely no relevance. That's like an ancient Greek asking you how you fail to connect with Zeus. Clearly you can't connect with something that doesn't exist, I think we can both grasp that concept? So, logic aside, it's impossible for anyone to connect with your God due to the fact that he doesn't exist. Logic does, however, connect us to what is your concept of holy: That is, through moral reasoning human beings are capable of understanding wrong and right, good and bad, heroism and evil... This is how your false doctrines were created.
2) First off free will is an illusion. Your decisions are the result of your environment and genetic make-up. It's not that you live a predetermined life, it's that your brain unconsciously makes decisions without your conscious thought affecting it. It's a hard concept to understand, I suggest you read a couple books on the subject if you're interested, particularly Sam Harris' Free Will. Secondly, you are completely lost if you re-read your response to me and fail to comprehend your logical error: You are telling me that something deciding to be evil is not flawed. Those who commit acts of evil out of malice, spite, jealousy, etc. are not being possessed by Lucifer... They are illogical fanatics of human lust, much like you are an illogical fanatic of your religious beliefs that had to have been imposed on you since birth. Your environment in part determines your mental state and outlook on life. God failed if he allowed so many of us to "decide to be evil".
3) You have so many misconceptions about science that I won't bother responding to the majority of your statements here, and also due to the fact that they are altogether incoherent. Let me instead reiterate my point: falsifiable evidence of "things" i key to any theory for it to be generally accepted as fact. Let's take gravity for example: You can easily disprove the theory gravity if you simply defy the laws of physics that we have observed and make, say, a quarter float into the air. Newton would've said "I invite any of you to falsify my theory of the law of gravity and then I'll go back to the drawing board". Religious fanatics like yourself, on the other hand, make claims that have no falsifiable evidence whatsoever. The existence of God, the existence of Lucifer, heaven, hell, these things are said to be outside of the range of observation by humans. They are, however, believed to exist by millions of devotees who are swayed by the writings of past human beings. Anybody can set up an experiment and try to disprove gravity, but nobody can possibly disprove the existence of God. By the same token, I could convince anyone reading this of the theory of gravity by inviting them to immediately pick up something on their desk right now, and drop it into air. If the object you dropped hit the floor or your desk, you've just witnessed compelling evidence in support of the theory of gravity. Nobody, on the other hand, could ever present a shred of compelling evidence for the existence of god, hell, heaven, Lucifer, Noah's ark, intelligent design, Allah, turning water to wine, a virgin giving birth to the son of god, or anything other claptrap that religious fanatics spew out.