Can "GOD" be manipulated?

You are using very poor logic. Let me help.

1. You are not clearly defining your terms and your using them weirdly. Are you considering thought processes as material or immaterial? Seeing as how our brains are material and thoughts happen in our brain, you can say that logic is material because it is happening in our physical brains. However, in a casual conversations a person usually isn't going to say a thought is material. Is a thought a physical thing? Even though the thoughts are inside our brains and so physical things, the ideas them self are not really material. There isn't a 1+1=2 particle that floats in space as a physical object.

2. There is nothing saying immaterial things have no restrictions. If we are using the idea that thoughts and ideas are immaterial, then that makes math immaterial. Math clearly has set rules and restrictions. There is no logical reason to think immaterial things don't have limits and restrictions. You basically just pulled that out of your ass.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

I used the santa claus thing not because of your thread about it, but because you are so predictable.

If infinity is mathematical then you should be able to define it properly. Yet what is infinity plus 1? Is it any different an answer to infinite minus 1? No! If two different mathematical questions get the same answer, that proves that it's not logical. 3 plus infinity is? What about 125 times infinity? You must not understand basic maths and your claim that infinity makes sense in mathematics is known to be false. Now you can either admit your mistake or just move on and understand that you may not know everything.

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That is totally incorrect. I can absolutely prove that your statement is 100% wrong. You just said that if two different mathematical questions have the same answer, that proves it is not logical. That is faulty.

3+2=5
6-1=5

That is two separate mathematical equations that gives the same result. You are wrong. There is absolutely no reason what so ever, that multiple equations can't equal the same thing. You just pulled that totally out of your ass. Now I think it is time for you to admit you are wrong, or are you going to argue that 3+2 isn't 5? Or that 6-1 isn't also 5?

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

well you are implying I'm ignorant because of not using a dictionary. But it's just more talk isn't it. In reality I have a similar life as everyone else. I can do most of the things a person is known to be able to do. Any sort of condescending sort of disapproval by you, isn't really backed by anything solid other than your own ideas.

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How about your inability to counter our arguments, you basing arguments on your own definition of words. There's no talk here, everything you have posted is congruent with the manner in which trolls or self delusional people speak.

You bend and twist words, accuse others of their lack of understanding yet you yourself are most guilty of this. If there is one thing you can convince members of dreamviews with, it's a compelling argument. All you have given us is absolute dribble, and most members so far have tried to reason with you but you offer nothing in return. I do look down on the way you think because you shun us in the same fashion and I have no respect for hypocrites.

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Originally Posted by Gnostic

Is faith a material thing?

If faith is not a material thing. You cannot measure it by anything material. You cannot say it has restrictions if it's not material. That is very basic logic.

Regards
DL

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You have to have faith in something, and then your faith is backed by what you live. So yes it's material to that extent you can see it manifest in your life as you live it, and you can see the effects, you can measure the effects. If you want to claim your logic is material, you have to back it up with rules that you can state clearly and measure.

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Originally Posted by Alric

That is totally incorrect. I can absolutely prove that your statement is 100% wrong. You just said that if two different mathematical questions have the same answer, that proves it is not logical. That is faulty.

3+2=5
6-1=5

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You don't understand. 6-1, is the same amount as 3 + 2. That's not inconsistent at all. But 125 times infinite. Should be more than 2 plus infinite. But it is not. That is inconsistent. Do you know the difference?

The rules of maths are clear, Addition means that if you add numbers together. the number has to increase. If you add 3 plus infinity. That is the same as if you add 8 times infinity. This has broken the rule of maths.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

You don't understand. 6-1, is the same amount as 3 + 2. That's not inconsistent at all. But 125 times infinite. Should be more than 2 plus infinite. But it is not. That is inconsistent. Do you know the difference?

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How is it inconsistent? 125 times infinity is the same thing as 2 plus infinity. Just like 3+2 and 6-1 result in the same thing. Just like 2+2 is the same as 2 times 2, or 2 to the power of 2. They are all the same thing. How is any of this inconsistent?

You are just making the assumption that are incorrect. 125 times something isn't always more than 2 plus something. What if I used the number -1? 125 times -1 is -125. If we add 2 plus -1, we get 1. In which case 125 times -1 is smaller than 2 plus -1.

The flaw isn't in the math or my logic, the flaw is in your assumptions. Tell me why you think 125 times infinity should be more than 2 plus infinity. Otherwise admit that they are the same thing and that I am right.

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Originally Posted by Alric

-125. If we add 2 plus -1, we get 1. In which case 125 times -1 is smaller than 2 plus -1.

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-125 is a different thing to 2 minus -1. You are just trying to confuse the obvious arn't you.

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Tell me why you think 125 times infinity should be more than 2 plus infinity.

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According to the rules of maths (I can't believe I have to explain addition to you) plus means to add. So If you add numbers together, you have to get more than the two numbers put together. If you have infinity and you try to add numbers to it. That won't increase infinity. You have broken the rules of addition. Infinity doesn't make sense in mathematics.

For heaven sake.....

Infinity is not a number.
Let's bring in some people who actually know what they're talking about. Infinity in mathematics is obviously beyond any of our abilities.

numberphile

Basically, it's not as simple as you want it to be here.

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Originally Posted by Maeni

Basically, it's not as simple as you want it to be here.

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It seems I have to make it very simple, or you will simply argue. In fact no matter how simple I make things, or how complex. You argue regardless. That is your goal. To argue no matter what sense it makes. Even when it's verified you argue again. It's a joke....

Lets just assume that your mind is closed.

dude already in that video I can see that guy is a retard. He says "some infinity is bigger than others". That doesn't make any sense. He is just making his own rules up. It's stupid.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

-125 is a different thing to 2 minus -1. You are just trying to confuse the obvious arn't you.

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You might be confused but what I said was pretty clear. That multiplication doesn't always result in a larger number than addition.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

According to the rules of maths (I can't believe I have to explain addition to you) plus means to add. So If you add numbers together, you have to get more than the two numbers put together. If you have infinity and you try to add numbers to it. That won't increase infinity. You have broken the rules of addition. Infinity doesn't make sense in mathematics.

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That isn't true. What you just said isn't a rule of math. What if I do negative 5 plus negative 5? I get negative 10, a number smaller than both of the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

You have to have faith in something, and then your faith is backed by what you live. So yes it's material to that extent you can see it manifest in your life as you live it, and you can see the effects, you can measure the effects. If you want to claim your logic is material, you have to back it up with rules that you can state clearly and measure.


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You forget reciprocity.

If logic makes you believe something it is backed by what you live. So yes it's material to that extent you can see it manifest in your life as you live it, and you can see the effects, you can measure the effects. If you want to claim your faith is material, you have to back it up with rules that you can state clearly and measure.

Regards
DL

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

dude already in that video I can see that guy is a retard. He says "some infinity is bigger than others". That doesn't make any sense. He is just making his own rules up. It's stupid.

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That is easy to prove. Negative infinity is way smaller than positive infinity.

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Originally Posted by Alric

What if I do negative 5 plus negative 5?

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That's not proper addition. Can you demonstrate minus 5 apples plus another minus 5 apples? Minus 5 apples is not addition. If you don't have any apples, you can't add minus 5 of them. You are completely making the rules of maths into something retarded by adding something into this that is irrelevant. Just like if you started saying there is 2 types of infinite. When there isn't.

there is no such *facepalm. It doesn't matter if you have negative or positive infinity. Anymore than minus 5 or plu 5. It doesn't make any difference. Negative numbers only make sense when you are using them to take away from something. minus 5 apples makes sense if you have 10 apples. You cannot begin with minus 5 apples in real life.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

He says "some infinity is bigger than others". That doesn't make any sense. He is just making his own rules up. It's stupid.

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vi hart

Please don't pretend you know math...
Infinity isn't a number like the other numbers, that's why 125*∞ is the same as 8+∞.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

According to the rules of maths (I can't believe I have to explain addition to you) plus means to add. So If you add numbers together, you have to get more than the two numbers put together.

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Technically no. I'm assuming we're talking about elementary alegbra, but even then this statement is shaky at best.

First of all you've used circular reasoning, by defining that adding numbers together results in more than the two numbers ... added together. You've just described a law using itself, which is generally frowned upon. To prove how malformed this logic is, say you have four apples, that's them all put together. Divide them in to two groups of two, then add them. You get back four. That's not more than the two groups put together, that's just the two groups put together.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

If you have infinity and you try to add numbers to it.

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Hey hey hey, slow down here. You've somewhat grasped the idea of addition with positive integers, it's exciting, I get it. But infinity isn't a positive integer. It's not even a number, or specific to mathematics at all! Infinity is the simple idea of something without limits. This could be the universe's size, the list of all natural numbers, or the space between two atoms.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

That's not proper addition. Can you demonstrate minus 5 apples plus another minus 5 apples? Minus 5 apples is not addition. If you don't have any apples, you can't add minus 5 of them. You are completely making the rules of maths into something retarded by adding something into this that is irrelevant. Just like if you started saying there is 2 types of infinite. When there isn't.

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I borrow 5 apples from Bob, then borrow another 5 apples from Bob. How many apples does bob have? He has negative 10 apples compared to what he started with. How did I get that answer? I added negative 5 plus negative 5 to get negative 10.

You clearly don't even know math at all. What you are claiming are rules of math are not rules of math, they are things you just made up. Also your examples are silly. Just because you can't have negative of a physical object, doesn't mean negatives don't exist. I can be in debt and have negative money because I owe money to others. I can move in a negative direction is I walk backwards. I can start floating on the surface of the ocean and go to a negative altitude by diving under water.

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Originally Posted by Maeni

Please don't pretend you know math...
Infinity isn't a number like the other numbers, that's why 125*∞ is the same as 8+∞.

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I was the one that claimed infinity isn't a number that can be used. So I am getting pretty short on patience by now. I can't tell if you are being a troll or if you really think what I am saying is invalid? No-one with any sensible brain would ever imagine that infinity conforms to the rules of maths. There is not "many types of infinity" unless you start creating them in your own head. That's what mathematicians do when they start making more rules up. You never herd of this controversy before? It's highly comical because it's just so obvious what infinity is. It's not even complex. Even a 10 year old can understand that infinity means forever. There is no way to get around the fact that infinity is not a particular number. Since maths uses numbers infinity is not an answer or even a question. It's just a idea. I could use anything I could say sausage is now a part of maths and every time I say sauage "this happens" and there is different types of sausages. And these are the rules. And I basically would turn into a magical wizard where whatever I say becomes a type of maths. And that's exactly what atheists do they make it up as they go along. But what can you actually do in real life? Not much different to what I can do as a human. you can write about infinity till the cows come home. Won't demonstrate that it makes sense in maths. Unless you change the rules of maths to include the abstract and undefinable. Which is pretty ridiculious.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

I was the one that claimed infinity isn't a number that can be used. So I am getting pretty short on patience by now. I can't tell if you are being a troll or if you really think what I am saying is invalid? No-one with any sensible brain would ever imagine that infinity conforms to the rules of maths. There is not "many types of infinity" unless you start creating them in your own head. That's what mathematicians do when they start making more rules up. You never herd of this controversy before? It's highly comical because it's just so obvious what infinity is. It's not even complex. Even a 10 year old can understand that infinity means forever. There is no way to get around the fact that infinity is not a particular number. Since maths uses numbers infinity is not an answer or even a question. It's just a idea. I could use anything I could say sausage is now a part of maths and every time I say sauage "this happens" and there is different types of sausages. And these are the rules. And I basically would turn into a magical wizard where whatever I say becomes a type of maths. And that's exactly what atheists do they make it up as they go along. But what can you actually do in real life? Not much different to what I can do as a human. you can write about infinity till the cows come home. Won't demonstrate that it makes sense in maths. Unless you change the rules of maths to include the abstract and undefinable. Which is pretty ridiculious.

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I'm not a mathematician but people have made infinity work in math; it just doesn't work like normal everyday numbers do. You should listen to some of the many videos Vi Hart creates, she talks about a lot of this, about different types of math and things that are fairly interesting. You're right that infinity is weird and that it isn't a number, but I don't know exactly where you want to go with that.

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Originally Posted by Alric

I borrow 5 apples from Bob, then borrow another 5 apples from Bob. How many apples does bob have? He has negative 10 apples compared to what he started with. How did I get that answer? I added negative 5 plus negative 5 to get negative 10.

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If bob didn't have any apples. Then how would bob give you any apples? Basic logic failed again.....Negative numbers can't work unless they are in relation to something.

negative infinity is equally as large as positive infinity. Only difference is one is negative other is positive. Infinity hasn't changed. rules of maths havn't changed. Neither has apples. Neither has the idea that you are wrong about something. You will fight to make the illogic a reality. But I want to be in reality where things are not delusions.

I haven't really been following the elementary school "take two apples" argument here but uh, this part is pretty obvious:

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

Negative numbers can't work unless they are in relation to something.

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Originally Posted by Alric

He has negative 10 apples compared to what he started with.

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Originally Posted by Maeni

I'm not a mathematician but people have made infinity work in math;

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The idea of maths is to use it for real life. So let me know when you can use infinity for something practical. Perhaps a free energy generator? There is no invention that currently runs on an equation that has infinity in it. So far as I know no-one has made infinity work and if they did, the FBI or someone would probaly be kicking their door down cause a technology like that would trump all fossil fuels, and all limitations of current technology.

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Originally Posted by Maeni

I haven't really been following the elementary school "take two apples" argument here but uh, this part is pretty obvious:

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You have forgotten the point he was trying to make, and now have no idea what the discussion is. Well done. He was saying negative numbers make infinity different, that infinity was a rational number in mathematics. You agree with someone depending on their world view. Nice one.

THIS WAS HIS ARGUMENT THAT "INFINITY IS RATIONAL IN MATHS". NEGATIVE NUMBERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH INFINITY AND DO NOT CHANGE INFINITY. INFINITY IS NOT A NUMBER. IT BREAKS THE RULES OF MATHS BECAUSE INFINITY CANNOT BE DEFINED AS ANYTHING DEFINITE

I am out of here cause you people are crazy

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

The idea of maths is to use it for real life.

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That's a pretty wild claim. Anyway, without infinity, we wouldn't be able to move because of Zeno's paradox.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

The idea of maths is to use it for real life. So let me know when you can use infinity for something practical. Perhaps a free energy generator? There is no invention that currently runs on an equation that has infinity in it. So far as I know no-one has made infinity work and if they did, the FBI or someone would probaly be kicking their door down cause a technology like that would trump all fossil fuels, and all limitations of current technology.

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This is where you are an idiot, because infinity is used in calculus and stuff, which is then used in things like engineering to build pretty much all the modern technology we use today. You can say infinity doesn't work in math all you want but it is simply untrue. Like the video about infinity shows all sort of ways to manipulate infinity in mathematical ways. You can claim none of that stuff is real, yet people use that to build all sort of practical things in real life, all the time.

You simply lack the math skill to even grasp the concept. There is nothing wrong with that, but when you claim you know the rules better than the people who do understand the math and have better math skills than you, you just come across as ignorant.

you lack a capability of basic communication. If infinity can be used then why does everything has definite limitations? No-one claims they can build things with infinity. Where is the computer with infinite cpu power. Doesn't exist cause you are the idiot and not me.

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Originally Posted by Maeni

That's a pretty wild claim. Anyway, without infinity, we wouldn't be able to move because of Zeno's paradox[/URL].

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oh it's a wild claim that maths is for real life? LOL. I don't care about zeno's paradox. We have demonstrated that there is no such thing as a paradox either. Not in real life. I didn't say that infinity didn't exist. I said that to use it in mathematics for anything is not rational. Just like speaking with you is not rational. Logic is not material (least not your type of logic) and neither is infinity something material.

you people are infinitely......backwards in your logic.

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Originally Posted by Deanstar

you lack a capability of basic communication. If infinity can be used then why does everything has definite limitations? No-one claims they can build things with infinity. Where is the computer with infinite cpu power. Doesn't exist cause you are the idiot and not me.

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Where is the computer with seven hundred octillion gigabytes of RAM?
Everything doesn't have definite limitations. In any case it doesn't change the fact that infinity can be and is used in math.

EDIT:

Considering how adamant you were about logic and reasoning being somehow untrustworthy concepts, you're getting disproportionately flustered about us being ostensibly "logically backwards" and not "rational".

I won't accept that a googol is a mathematical number before an engineer builds a skyscraper with a googol number of floors!
Infinity is used in mathematics, I don't think this is even something that's up for debate.

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Originally Posted by Maeni

Where is the computer with seven hundred octillion gigabytes of RAM?
Everything doesn't have definite limitations. In any case it doesn't change the fact that infinity can be and is used in math.

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ummm. I can use pineapples, unicorns and rainbows in mathematics if I wanted. I can say pineapples plus unicorns equals rainbow rule. But how would you apply it? In an algebra equation Y+Z= X pineapples plus unicorns equals rainbows. It's just an abstract concept. You can't make it work in real life. It's just something that is nonsense. What is the real joke is you can't admit that mathematicians dupe everyone into that without them even knowing that it don't apply to real life problems that you can use. That's the difference between real maths, and irrational maths.

and yeah they have a thing called irrational numbers. Anything you can think of, don't let logic stop you. That's the whole point of my argument! How is logic even definable.

Advanced maths are not just theoretical and concept based, they are used to build bridges and put satellites into orbit and stuff. In that kind of math, infinity is used.