"God's worried about you"

Well, I've been waiting for the chance to start this thread. I haven't had the time in the last few weeks, but I've finally got my chance. Part of the reason that it's taken me so long to get around to it is simple ignorance and intolerance, but that'll be explained later.

As you know, I'm a very outspoken person when it comes to science/religion debates. Religion isn't something I get along with, and hence I've left organized religion. That all happened moderately recently.

A year or so ago, I began to realize that I'd been nearly brainwashed by religion. Not in a conspiracy type way at all, but brainwashed nonetheless. My Sunday School teachers probably didn't intend to do it, and I certainly won't blame them for it. Rather, I blame myself. I've always thought myself to be a difficult person to fool, the type who questions everything, but I missed the mark entirely when it comes to religion. I was born and raised Mormon, which, despite some people's opinions, is a moderately average Christian religion. There is some added doctrine (the Book of Mormon), but all the principles and beliefs excluding that are more or less the same. As I mentioned, I was born into the church. I grew up learning about the scriptures and hearing decidedly one-sided religion debates, and I never thought twice about it. I never even thought to question it until that point about one year ago. I began to wonder, how much of this religion do I really believe, and how much have I just been repeating to myself for the last few years until I'd fooled myself into 'believing' in it? Is my faith justified at all?

Finally, I admitted to myself that I didn't agree with the Mormon church's standpoints on many issues, much less organized religion's as a whole. At first I thought that I'd just live with it for the moment, and I'd just put off really thinking and acting on it until some later time. The church played a huge role in my life at that point. 1/8 of the time I'd normally spend in school I'd spend hearing more indoctrination on behalf of the church. It actually has delayed my graduation 6 months. Not only that, but as the church commanded, I'd intended on going on a mission immediately after graduating high school, and not coming back for two years. Like I said, this is a COMMANDMENT in the Mormon church for all men. Since I live in Utah, ~70% of the population is Mormon. If you were born into the church, you're 21, and not a returned missionary, about 60% of the girls in Utah will absolutely refuse to even date you.

That seemed like a strong detterent to me back then. Now, it's just made me more ashamed of how long it took me to find the truth. Beyond that, I'm extremely ashamed of the reasons I never looked for the truth.

But that changed pretty rapidly. I'd intended on biding my time, waiting until the church played a lesser role in my life to take action and declare my beliefs. Two months ago, I decided that I thought of myself as a very outspoken person, and an outspoken person doesn't sit on their hands while their life is stolen from them. My church attendance dropped from once every month or so to not at all. It wasn't a particularly noticeable gesture, but it was a start. I then told my friends, and my family, and my bishop, and my seminary teacher all that I'd become agnostic and would no longer be going to church. THAT did draw notice.

I hardly had the words out of my mouth when my doorbell rang. Ever since that moment, I've been hounded by Mormon friends as well as Baptist, Catholic and one Buddhist to join there church. Apparently, to them, the label "Agnostic" is a Soul-for-Sale sign, and they're all eager to get their hands on a convert. In fact, conversions are almost considered status symbols here in Utah. Most of the Mormons in my area don't really give a damn about me. A few do, I'll admit. But the majority just want everybody to say, "Hey, that's so-and-so, the one who got Tsen to join the church again!". They just want the recognition for "doing a good deed." They don't give a damn how annoying they are in the process, either.

7:00 AM Sunday morning two months ago, I was awakened by three young men and one young woman pulling me by the legs out of bed. They told me they were here to make sure I went to church, and I told them very clearly that "I won't f*cking go to any f*cking church that drags me out of bed at 7:00 in the damned morning to go to a meeting I don't want to be at!" They said something about going to church didn't mean rejoining the church, and asked why I had a problem with just listening to what they had to say. Again, I spoke in a way that I sincerely doubt they could have misinterpreted: "I've listened to your shitty message for 17 years, and I'm damned tired of it! I think I've heard all I want to, and my decision's made!"
They didn't really say anything to that, but still insisted that I come to church. In fact, they went to my closet, pulled out my pants, shirt and tie, and tossed them on my bed. Then they walked out of the room and said that I'd better get dressed quick, because the rest of the girls from my church would be coming in to drag me out in five minutes.
Not to be defeated so easily, I was dressed in jeans and a t-shirt well within five minutes, but I wasn't around to meet the girls from church. I made it out the window pretty damned quick. I'd be willing to bet it was my personal record for fastest time out of bed and out the window.
I went to a friend (who's athiest) and stayed there for the moment. But the church was still tenacious. My mother actually called the police and tried to file a missing person report on me, but couldn't because I'd only been gone for two hours or so, and there's a requirement of the person being missing for at least a day or something. Anyway, a makeshift search party made up of all the kids my age from church knocked on my friends door and again tried to drag me to church. I gave them the slip, telling them (quite coherently) "Stop following me! You heard my decision, and I'm sticking to it!". I left for home again, grabbed my bike and started going. I'm a pretty heavy bicyclist, and I wound up making about 50 miles before I stopped and grabbed lunch. I spent most of the day there, and got home around 11:00 that night. My parents were mad, but not furious yet.

Still, things haven't improved. After a week out of the church, I decided that 'agnostic' didn't cut it, and decided I was an atheist. At that point, my mom flipped. Here I am, a few weeks later. My parents have officially disowned me. As soon as I graduate this May, I'm being kicked out of the house. I'm planning on moving in with a friend in Salt Lake for a few months before going to college in Provo, a ways north of there. College happens to be another way my parents are punishing me. My dad, who had been offering to pay for my college all the way up to a Bachelor's degree, has now withdrawn that offer. It isn't too bad, since the local colleges are really cheap compared to Eastern US colleges, but it'll still cost me about $8,000 a year for tuition, dorms and books. I'll have a few scholarships, thanks to my 35 on the ACT (retaking it in a month or two to try for a 36), but I'll still have to pay for food and such on my own, along with a significant portion of the tuition. Also, my parents have stopped me from getting my driver's license. It used to be a family rule that once you got your Eagle Scout award, you got your license, but no sooner. Now that I've left the church, they've decided that I'll have to wait until I'm 18 and can sign for myself to get my license. At that point, I'll be buying my own car and paying for insurance on my own. This gets tacked on to the living expenses that I've just had thrust upon me.

Now, these 'punishments' aren't too bad. My mom also takes away the modem so I can't get online on Sundays, but I've got my own modem upstairs for the new computer I'm getting this month, so it's no biggie. Anyway, this all is legal. My parents aren't required to do any of the above, and I honestly wouldn't blame them for it, except for their reasoning. They aren't doing it because they want me to become an independant person, or because they can't afford it, they're doing it because they want to punish me for not sharing their religion. THAT is morally wrong. The Mormon church itself even preaches that you should give people that aren't religious, or aren't of the same religion, the same things you'd give somebody that was! Human ethics say that you shouldn't deprive somebody for different beliefs! But they still do it.
This is the reason I mentioned earlier, about why I couldn't post this sooner. My parents are browsing my web history now, trying to find some dirt on me. It doesn't work well, since I'm not into porn or drugs (and I delete my history daily anyways), but they'll take anything they can get. DreamViews happens to be one of the sites that they're preying upon now. They browse through my posts (never actually reading my posts, only the topic names) and challenge me on everything they see there. They've challenged me on the drug/dreaming correlation threads I've posted in. They honestly believe I'm into meth and cocaine. They've never actually read my posts, though. If they had, they'd notice that I'm one of the most outspoken anti-drug activists on the site. But that doesn't matter to them, because DreamViews has fallen under the banner of "black magic" to them.
It gets worse, too-- the other day, I was on a website about "What if Superman lived in Russia?" It was this whole comic book about a Communist Superman, and it was HILARIOUS. My mom walked down and saw the page, and asked, "Are you communist?"
Didn't take long for me to respond. "No, Communism is an attempt to make a perfect system work with imperfect components. Marxism-Leninism is worse, it's just a dressed up totalitarian government that proclaims to be Socialist. But while we're talking, I might as well inform you that Jesus was a Communist." My mom challenged that, and I obliged her. "Jesus emphasized giving all you had to the church, which would redistribute it to every man according to their needs. That's the basic Communist principle, right there, and it's a very nice system, provided everybody's perfectly unselfish. But man IS selfish, so pure Communism won't work on THIS world. That's why I'M not Communist. But you are. In fact, the Mormon church preaches an ideal called 'The Law of Consecration', wherein all the saints give up their land and possessions to the church, and the church purchases food with their money, distributes it to all the people according to their needs, and gives everybody ample land and home space to live in. Didn't work when they tried it back in the 1800's, either. That's why you reverted to the 10% tithing: Communism doesnt' work. But you still preach it at church. And now you're trying to condemn me for being something that I'm NOT, but you ARE." She didn't say anything, but I overheard her telling my dad that I'm corrupted and a hopeless child, as well as a communist, a pill-popper and an anarchist. She seems to think I'm the antichrist personally. And yet my character hasn't changed since I left the church at all, only my beliefs.

And all throughout the process, my mom keeps telling me that "God's worried about you" and "God wants you back in his church." The people at school tell me "We miss you at church" and "The Bishop really wants to see you". I just flip them off.

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Originally posted by Tsen

7:00 AM Sunday morning two months ago, I was awakened by three young men and one young woman pulling me by the legs out of bed. They told me they were here to make sure I went to church, and I told them very clearly that \"I won't f*cking go to any f*cking church that drags me out of bed at 7:00 in the damned morning to go to a meeting I don't want to be at!\"

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Wow, that would really piss me off. If anyone ever tried that on me, I assure you they would be lucky to leave my house on a stretcher (as opposed to leaving in a body bag).

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Originally posted by Tsen+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tsen)</div>

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Still, things haven't improved. After a week out of the church, I decided that 'agnostic' didn't cut it, and decided I was an atheist. At that point, my mom flipped. Here I am, a few weeks later. My parents have officially disowned me. As soon as I graduate this May, I'm being kicked out of the house. I'm planning on moving in with a friend in Salt Lake for a few months before going to college in Provo, a ways north of there. College happens to be another way my parents are punishing me. My dad, who had been offering to pay for my college all the way up to a Bachelor's degree, has now withdrawn that offer. It isn't too bad, since the local colleges are really cheap compared to Eastern US colleges, but it'll still cost me about $8,000 a year for tuition, dorms and books. I'll have a few scholarships, thanks to my 35 on the ACT (retaking it in a month or two to try for a 36), but I'll still have to pay for food and such on my own, along with a significant portion of the tuition. Also, my parents have stopped me from getting my driver's license. It used to be a family rule that once you got your Eagle Scout award, you got your license, but no sooner. Now that I've left the church, they've decided that I'll have to wait until I'm 18 and can sign for myself to get my license. At that point, I'll be buying my own car and paying for insurance on my own. This gets tacked on to the living expenses that I've just had thrust upon me.

Now, these 'punishments' aren't too bad. My mom also takes away the modem so I can't get online on Sundays, but I've got my own modem upstairs for the new computer I'm getting this month, so it's no biggie. Anyway, this all is legal. My parents aren't required to do any of the above, and I honestly wouldn't blame them for it, except for their reasoning. They aren't doing it because they want me to become an independant person, or because they can't afford it, they're doing it because they want to punish me for not sharing their religion. THAT is morally wrong. The Mormon church itself even preaches that you should give people that aren't religious, or aren't of the same religion, the same things you'd give somebody that was! Human ethics say that you shouldn't deprive somebody for different beliefs! But they still do it.
[/b]

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Sheesh! That's harsh. Good to see you're taking it so well, though. This is my favorite tactic for when punishment is thrust upon me: don't let it affect you. Pisses people off so much, it's great.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tsen

It gets worse, too-- the other day, I was on a website about \"What if Superman lived in Russia?\" It was this whole comic book about a Communist Superman, and it was HILARIOUS. My mom walked down and saw the page, and asked, \"Are you communist?\"
Didn't take long for me to respond. \"No, Communism is an attempt to make a perfect system work with imperfect components. Marxism-Leninism is worse, it's just a dressed up totalitarian government that proclaims to be Socialist. But while we're talking, I might as well inform you that Jesus was a Communist.\" My mom challenged that, and I obliged her. \"Jesus emphasized giving all you had to the church, which would redistribute it to every man according to their needs. That's the basic Communist principle, right there, and it's a very nice system, provided everybody's perfectly unselfish. But man IS selfish, so pure Communism won't work on THIS world. That's why I'M not Communist. But you are. In fact, the Mormon church preaches an ideal called 'The Law of Consecration', wherein all the saints give up their land and possessions to the church, and the church purchases food with their money, distributes it to all the people according to their needs, and gives everybody ample land and home space to live in. Didn't work when they tried it back in the 1800's, either. That's why you reverted to the 10% tithing: Communism doesnt' work. But you still preach it at church. And now you're trying to condemn me for being something that I'm NOT, but you ARE.\" She didn't say anything, but I overheard her telling my dad that I'm corrupted and a hopeless child, as well as a communist, a pill-popper and an anarchist. She seems to think I'm the antichrist personally. And yet my character hasn't changed since I left the church at all, only my beliefs.

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Sorry, but I had to laugh at the \"communist, a pill-popper and an anarchist\" part. Seriously, though, you totally Pwnt -- with a capital P -- your mom on that one.

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Originally posted by Tsen

And all throughout the process, my mom keeps telling me that \"God's worried about you\" and \"God wants you back in his church.\" The people at school tell me \"We miss you at church\" and \"The Bishop really wants to see you\". I just flip them off.

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Ahahaha. Good show. It's funny how their relentless attempts to get you to come back are only pushing you further away. You might want to remind them that their tactics are not only ineffective in getting you to come back, but also creating a strong contempt for them.

Thanks for the support.

Yeah, it gets a bit annoying at times, and I've told my mom that she's just pushing me further away, but I guess I haven't really told anybody else that. Leastwise, not screamed it in their face; I mean, they're pretty blind not to notice how much it annoys me.

On the plus side: They haven't tried to drag me out of bed in the morning again.

And I've burned a copy of the Simpson's episode when Lisa goes Buddhist for my parents. Just so they get the message. Hopefully...

Oh, and my mom thinks I'm manic-depressed as well. She tried to talk my doctor into putting me on Zoloft, but he sided with me and refused to give the perscription since he said I was perfectly fine. I'm honestly unsure where she got this one; I've never been super depressed in my life. I had a bit of depression in 7th and 8th grade, but that was the normal teenager type of thing, not to mention that it ended more than four years ago. And even when I was in the deepest part of that I was still a happy and outgoing person...Hrm. Mebbe she's just paranoid. Most likely.

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Originally posted by Tsen

7:00 AM Sunday morning two months ago, I was awakened by three young men and one young woman pulling me by the legs out of bed. They told me they were here to make sure I went to church, and I told them very clearly that \"I won't f*cking go to any f*cking church that drags me out of bed at 7:00 in the damned morning to go to a meeting I don't want to be at!\"

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My initial reaction would be to just quickly snap their necks - and then go back to sleep. Clean up the mess after 10am...

Fortunately, Thor! likes to sleep late on Sunday too. So he'd just rip one of their legs off and beat them to death with it. I wouldn't have to be troubled with putting them down.

Sorry to hear you were dragged out of bed at 7:00am. That's lousy.

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Originally posted by Tsen
And I've burned a copy of the Simpson's episode when Lisa goes Buddhist

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That's getting hardcore. I can imagine it would be difficult living with parents like the flanders.

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Originally posted by Tsen!+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tsen!)</div>

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Thanks for the support.
...She tried to talk my doctor into putting me on Zoloft, but he sided with me and refused to give the perscription since he said I was perfectly fine...[/b]

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Now they're trying to drug you, too?
Keep fighting the good fight. They may take your internet connection, but they'll never take -- your freedom!
<!--QuoteBegin-kimpossible!

...Fortunately, Thor! likes to sleep late on Sunday too. So he'd just rip one of their legs off and beat them to death with it. I wouldn't have to be troubled with putting them down.

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Now there's a god who gets things done. From now on, I'm going to start spelling my name with an exclaimation mark, too.

You have to understand JRTs (where the "T" stands for "Terrorist") to understand that they _really_ need an exclamation point built right into their name...

He doesn't like Squirrels either. . . ;)


http://www.sonotthedrama.net/thor-squirrel.jpg

Owch, rough time there, Tsen. I also would have probably dealt with them in a less-than-humane manner. :tongue:

Holy shit ,Tsen!
I don't even know what to say. It's ridiculous. Your honesty in the telling and your
rational and intelligent behavior in the face of such bullshit is quite commendable
though.
It's a shame that your folks are making such a horrible mistake; in the name of
religion of all things. Keep your head up , man. You can always count on us to vent to.

PS. If things get really bad PM me and I'll come talk to your parents with some of my
pill popping ,anarchist, communist friends. We'll all sit down and watch " Children
of the Corn" together. We would be happy to drag all your "friends" out of bed as well.
Maybe I'll take them to see Slipknot :D

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Originally posted by Black Mage
I think it was what alcoholics call an \"epiphany\"

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Just had to get it out of my system, but now that I have, I'm feeling a lot better. Anyway, important part is I'm all fixed and whatnot now. Did blow up on my mom yesterday, though...she started bashing DV again. Something about it being a rat's den of druggies and apocylyptical nutjobs. Didn't really stay cool and logical that time. I kinda started yelling, and I don't remember all that I yelled, but there was a lot about her being intrusive and cynical (mostly cynical), and some that probably didn't make sense and had no application, and I wound up leaving the house until that night. I'm a bit more cooled down now, but I don't know about my mom. She won't be back until late tonight, so if I'm lucky I'll be long asleep before she gets here. Really don't want to deal with this right now.

Though, like I said, I hardly think it's admirable that I followed the herd of sheep off the cliff for that long...Bit dissapointed with myself on that count. And I certainly didn't feel like I was rational and intelligent when I was in the heat of it all.

>> Something about it being a rat's den of druggies and apocylyptical nutjobs.

Funny thing is - I largely agree with her.

Y'know, you have a point. It's just that DV is my home forum, and to be honest, it's one topic where I don't give a damn about being rational. I like it. If she doesn't, I probably won't like her overly much.

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Originally posted by Tsen
They aren't doing it because they want me to become an independant person, or because they can't afford it, they're doing it because they want to punish me for not sharing their religion. THAT is morally wrong.

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It's a crime against your humanity.


Tsen's Mom and Dad, if you're reading this, I'd like to confide with you something I know about Tsen. He's HUMAN.

Find hella convincing arguments against monotheism and make them speechless. It would buy you some time to get them off your ass for a while. But in the long run, all the time used for fighting could be used for somethin better.

Kinda stupid how they accuse you of doin meth and want to put you on an antidepressant. I'm not against it, but the hole in their argument is flawful.

Sounds like a scary environment, to be persecuted so much for not believing. The really stupid is that religious people used to require pity for being prosecuted for being believers, but in this age, they really are quite the tyrants against everyone else.

The Soul-for-Sale description is a very good insight for me. Atheism is a firmer stance, at least when you tell people what you are.

My dad used to be a bit of an outcast in his familiy asswell becouse he did not blindly follow what the church said.

I am so thankfull he did, now I have grown up with an oppinion of my own.

It's really an achievement that you have the guts to stand up to this brainwashing stuff, and that you have not stopped thinking, not have just accepted all the spam the chuch and parents gave you.

I give you my ' <3's'

<3<3<3

(Respeckt <3)

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What happend to the dude spamming about how right god and religion is NOW, huh?

You know - you gotta wonder: If god was really all that worried about you - wouldn't he stop by and tell you himself? Seems kinda indifferent to me...

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Originally posted by kimpossible
You know - you gotta wonder: If god was really all that worried about you - wouldn't he stop by and tell you himself? Seems kinda indifferent to me...

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He does. It's your problem that you're not listening.

Makes you feel good, doesn't it? Knowing that it's always your fault.

Really... :roll:

It's all your fault, Mu!

Infinite power and happiness awaits you with God but it's your fault for not seeing him.

Isn't that liberating?

Tsen,

Having come from your almost exact background, let me give some advice on the matter.

What you do is back off from the Church thing for a while, but don't smart mouth your parents. Just take it real easy. Hit Church every now and then for a baby blessing or Christmas just to let them know you're still part of the team.

But start looking out for a full-time job somewhere. Doesn't really matter how much they pay and when you find one, and a non-mormon place where you can bunk down, just move out. It'll be a painful moment for both you and your family, but its your call so stay firm.

Then spend the next 2 or 3 years living it up. Go to work everyday. Make non-member friends, stay away from both your parents and the Church completely. Smoke a little weed just to try it out, get wasted every now and then, experience life and try out the things your friends are trying.

Watch out for the chicks though. I'm not saying don't have sex, but don't do something real stupid like get an STD. That really screws up your life. Go out of you way to make some really good female friends, and if you find or don't find a girlfriend, its all good.

The trick to this strategy is to completely forget about your family. Time will quickly pass if you do this. After 2 or 3 years, you're family will get the picture that you're serious about retaining your jack-mormon status and they'll start to make overtures in your direction.

This is the point where you broker a deal with them for school. This is the deal you make: I'll go to church if you pay for college. They'll take it in a heartbeat.

So you go to church (you'll be 20 by this time so you'll skip that akward "Why aren't you on a mission?" stage) on campus and the hotties will dig you, trust me. The varnish quickly rubs off the Mormon chicks when they hit about 21 and figure they're over-the-hill and won't care at all if you're an RM or not. Silly but true.

Yeah, man, get a job and a place, party with your friends for a few years, and then bang, you'll be in college everything paid, parents will be cool with you (though you will still be the black sheep), meeting nice, clean chicks every Sunday, and you won't have to be Mormon.

Piece of cake, Tsen.

Oh Then, I cant even begin to imminge what your going through. It sounds like something out of a bad religious film. I am an atheist, I really have been ever since I was a little kid... And one I have ever known made a big deal over it, no one cares what religion you really are around here... Would get out of where you are living. Its inhumane. Come over to New England, we are not really religious.

Tsen,

congratulations on breaking free.

Unfortunately this path is difficult.

Your family and church won't want to think for themselves, and can't understand someone who questions them. They will interpret it as a symptom of a problem in you.

Don't waste your energy on trying to explain your reasoning to the 'faithful'. Try and stay civil with your family. This will indirectly show that you don't "have a problem".

I recommend finishing high school then moving out of state. Its a big change, but best chance to keep growing, rather than compromising, or getting bribed.

Keep thinking!

Thanks for the advice everybody. Honestly, I'm happy with my current plan:

For the moment, I can't move out. I'm still in high school and badly in need of money, so moving in somewhere else would be difficult for the moment.
Instead, I plan on staying in Utah to finish up High School, then head to Utah State University. It's still in-state, but it's up in Provo, which is quite a ways away from here. I could still visit home whenever, but it's far enough out of the way that I won't have to deal with family on a daily basis. As soon as I get my four years in there, I'm heading to the East Coast to work on my graduate's and look for work. I've got a few friends at USU now who're living in one of their parent's condos, and they've got extra space. I'll probably move in with them for a while, since they won't bother with rent, so I'll only have to pay for books and tuition. I should be able to keep up with most of the cost of school, like I said, Utah schools are cheap.

Just as an update, things calmed down a bit overall, but spiked near Christmas. I got too many Christmas cards to read from the kids at my church, most of which were trying to drag me back again, and I was invited to at least ten Christmas parties, none of which I attended. I sent them a reply explaining why I'd left and why I wouldn't be coming back anytime soon, since I was sort of beginning to calm down and I felt I at least owed them an explanation. They haven't really said anything back, but at least they haven't bothered me since then. My seminary teacher, who still insisted on calling every other week, won't be bothering me anymore soon, since I finally transfer out of his class in a few weeks when the semester changes. I've still got some close friends who're upset with me about leaving, but I'm trying to talk to them. One in particular is hard to talk to, since she just joined the church a little while back, and it was a very positive change in her life. I don't really want to make her feel that I disagree with her being in the church, because I don't.

Anyway, thanks again.

By the way, Sokar, I appreciated your comments, but I don't think I'll be taking that course of action. I know my parents are upset with me leaving the church, but that hardly is motive for me to come back to it, especially if it's just a sort of bartering for my tuition. I've always been a sort of idealistic person in some regards, and this is one. I'm not about to let them stomp all over me again by going back to a church I don't believe in, regardless of reasons.

hey tsen,
i just noticed that i must be the last one to see your original post, as this thread hasn't been posted to since the end of december. still, i thought i'd say a few words.

i grew up mormon and left the church too, so i know a little of what you're going through, although it sounds like you have it a hell of a lot harder than i did when i left. anyway, i think you've got a pretty good plan. (btw, USU is in Logan, not Provo :)

i don't know if you're at all interested in something like this or not, but i want to tell you a little about this group i went to last saturday. it's called the St. Chad's Society. it's basically a support group for ex-mormons. it was started by Rev. W. Lee Shaw, who grew up mormon, went on a mission, married in the temple, and eventually left the church and became an Episcopalian priest. i've been to two meetings with this group. the first one was when Rev. Shaw came up to Logan to set up a chapter up there. at this meeting, all we really had time to do was everybody go and tell their story of leaving, how it's affected them, what's happened afterwards, etc. the other meeting i went to, last saturday, we talked about, among other things, what we like and don't like in religions in general. we discussed an idea from Ludwig Wittgenstein, who said that the point of philosophy is to "show the fly the way out of the bottle." so we took that metaphor and compared us to the flies, and religions to the bottle, and talked about leaving the "bottle" of mormonism, whether or not to find another "bottle," etc. it was pretty interesting. the group is organized by the Episcopalian church, and the structure of the meetings is somewhat religious, in that it opens and closes with a prayer and maybe a thought or a scripture, but the Episcopalians are very easy-going people. they will accept you and won't care if you're atheist, agnostic, or anything. anyway, like i said, i don't know if you're at all interested in something like this, but if so, there might already be a St. Chad chapter in your local area. the way to find out would be to contact a local Episcopal church. if there's not, and you're interested in it, i might be able to get you contact info for Rev. Shaw and maybe he will come up to your area and organize a chapter. or if not, you can at least talk to him, and maybe attend some meetings in Salt Lake or something. anyway, just let me know and i'll do what i can to help you. it sucks leaving behind a way of life that you have held for all your life, especially in the culture that you/we live in. i hope you can get through it without ruining your relationship with your parents and friends.

p.s. in your original post, you said something about 60% of the girls not being interested in you if you're not an RM. believe me—you don't want to date that 60% anyway. :) they may be hot, but it's just not worth it. don't worry, one day, you'll find yourself a nice heathen girl.

Yeah, my friend told me I'd messed up the Logan/Provo thing too, but I was too lazy to fix it. :D

And you're right about not wanting to date the 60%. I was hanging out with one, and thought that we were pretty good friends, then she found out I was an atheist and nearly lynched me on the spot. And usually I don't find girls who'd like to lynch me attractive.

Wow this has to be a derrent aganist leaveing my religon
if I become a buddhist what will my parents think?
yeah I gess i was worng to say you athesits have it easy.When questioning belifs I gess nobody does.

It must be dreadful occupying that in-between world where you are too smart to let other people do your thinking for you, but not being smart enough to think for one's self.

Your cynical remarks are always appreciated, Leo.


EDIT: 1000 posts, w00t. :D :breakitdown:

alright.. i dunno if anyone will even read this, but me being mormon and all i spose its my duty to say at least a few things....

im really lazy right now, so i will only say this one thing. you said (meaning Tsen), "The Mormon church itself even preaches that you should give people that aren't religious, or aren't of the same religion, the same things you'd give somebody that was! Human ethics say that you shouldn't deprive somebody for different beliefs! But they still do it."

People arent perfect. no matter what, someone will always think different. Your parents took that too seriously. When two of my friends fell away from the church (one of which i converted) i didnt go over to their house in the morning or anything like that. i actually respect them for standing up to something that they have known all their lives, as i respect yours. I just gave them a phone call every sunday around 10:00 to ask if they wanted to go to church. i stopped after a while because they kept saying no... and as i said im lazy haha. But what is really sad is one of the guys dads got reactivated in the church, and so he goes to church and sits by himself without his son there with him. he has been inactive for about 3-4 years now probably. There is something wrong with Utahn society because of the fact that we automatically judge people because they didnt go on a mission or something like that. but it is NOT a commandment to go on a mission, but it is a sin to disregard the prophet of the church, which is what you did, so i guess it is a sin by our standards. so that is definatly wrong of your parents. but that sucks that it is legal.... my parents are threatening with the drivers liscence too because of my eagle project for scouts, but i got it so no worries... well as i said people arent perfect, but the church is still true. and dont think that i havent been around.. and that i have only seen one side, i have. but im not going to say "Come back to church for your eternal souls welfare!!" but i am going to say that even thoough you may have hard feelings about the church, you will always we welcomed back. but if you do, theres no way i would ever go back to my home ward if i were you (although your view of the church is probably ruined forever, which is really depressing to me). that st.charles thing sorta sounds like an anti mormon thing to me... does it like tear the religion apart on all of its "faults"? alright, well i hope someone has gained something from this if theyve read it. peace.

FluBB

It's actually St. Chad's, not Charles. And no, it's not anti-Mormon. It was founded because Lee Shaw realized that people leaving the Mormon church tend to have many related issues - being shunned/outcast by their community and "friends," feeling "lost," wanting to remain spiritual/religious but not knowing where to turn, needing some sense of community which was lost in the transition, etc. He merely wanted to provide a sort of support group of like-minded individuals to help people get through a difficult transition. Sure, there might be some church-bashing going on, but what do you expect? This is a group of people who have already left the church. People who had problems with the church. People who noticed the faults. I'm sure if there was a similar support group for, say, former Republicans or former Democrats, there would be some party-bashing. This does not make it an anti-Mormon group; it's simply a way for people to get rid of some of their frustrations. Also, to me, an anti-Mormon group would be a group that actively tries to destroy the church and/or actively tries to convince people to leave the church. This group does neither of those. These people would never try to bring an end to the church. These are people who feel that anybody can worship as they please. And they don't try to convince people to leave the church; it's a group for people who have already left the church. Anyway, it's almost time for me to go home, so I'll leave it at this. I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this, FluBB.

hmm alright i can see what it is now. i was just making sure it wasnt like actively against the church, not that i could do anything, but i think it would be wrong to openly prosecute and try to bring the end to the church like you can see at General Conferece. sorry i missed the name on the charles thing, no harm intended. so does Reverend W. Lee Shaw open doors to try to convert you or is it just a support? i am acceptant to other religions, im not like that dudes parents. so why did you leave the church if you dont mind me asking? was it doctrine or.... what was it?

FluBB
(where do you live if your still in Utah?)

no big deal about getting the name wrong. i would definitely agree with you that it is wrong to openly persecute any church. live and let live. while i would happily debate doctrine with people, i would never reduce that debate to anything less than the intellectual level, which many people seem to do. "if you believe/don't believe X, you will go to hell." what's the point of saying that? it's not going to change anybody's mind.

although the group does have a slightly religious structure to the meetings (opening and closing prayer, etc.), and i'm sure they would be happy to have you convert, they don't push it at all. it's meant primarily just as support.

the reasons i left the church are primarily doctrinal. i find there are many inconsistencies in the church's doctrines, and there are other things i simply don't agree with, regardless of their consistency. i also don't like how closed the church seems to be with different interpretations of scripture. it seems like they don't really want you to think for yourself; they want you to accept what is taught. but aside from the doctrine, i also left for cultural reasons. with a few exceptions, the people just aren't the kind of people that i would normally associate with very much. i've heard that utah mormons are much worse about that than others, though, although i don't really have much experience with non-utah mormons.

i grew up in west jordan (in the salt lake valley, if you don't know). now, i live in logan, where i've lived for almost five years. hopefully, this summer, i'll be moving to california.

kage

*Personal info removed by OP's request*

Anyway, I left for a few reasons:
One; I think it's wrong to assume that you are more knowedgable, or that your faith is somehow more valid than another's, then another person's. More or less, I think the "My God can kick your God's butt" attitude is wrong. Mormons, and in fact, most all religions, seem to feel superior, or that they alone know the truth, when they've got nothing behind them. Now, that doesn't mean that you AREN'T really right, but it's wrong to assume that a supposedly omnibenevolent God would damn somebody because they were infinitely faithful, but to the wrong God.
Two; I don't necessarily believe in God at all. There's more on that in lots of the threads in this forum, if you want to look around.
Three; the mentality in the church is offensive. Especially the anti-evolution bit going on right now with the bill in Utah legislature dealing with evolution in schools. The lack of knowledge on the subject they believe themselves to be so correct about is pathetic. There's another thread floating around somewhere on that, I actually clipped out one of the more offensive editorials in our newspaper to post it online.

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Originally posted by Tsen
My God can kick your God's butt" attitude is wrong.it's wrong to assume that a supposedly omnibenevolent God would damn somebody because they were infinitely faithful, but to the wrong God.

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you dont say........

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Originally posted by kage23
it seems like they don't really want you to think for yourself

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You don't say.......

"My God can kick your God's butt"

Man, I sure miss Pokemon battles...

I actually have gone through a struggle with my church, so I'm on the same page as you, Tsen, even if it was a Christian religion in my case, but close enough. I've actually had a bit more hardships since then, and it's tempting to go back to church, or "God", but it's not the same after making some intellectual decisions in my mind. I've learned to become more self-reliant. But at the same time, I have no intention of wasting my energy trying to tear religion down, I have more productive things to do.

hmmmm

well i know for a fact that i think for myself... and about the kicking of gods butts, were not neccessarily saying that we are completely correct and everyone else is wrong, but that we have more, meaning the book of mormon. we believe the bible and the book of mormon to be the word of god as long as it is translated correctly. and yes, there are something like 88 different translations of the bible, we use the king james version. and the only thing we have changed to my knowledge is on the bottom part of the page where there are a bunch of references to other places in the book of mormon Topical Guide... bible dictionary etc. i think its interesting how some people dont believe in god. its just wierd thinking that everything on earth just happened to work out the way it did... distance from the sun for example. and that anti-evolution topic... i dont even wanna go there. theres so much confusion about it. some mormons believe it in there own little way and others disregard it. my personal opinion is that evolution did occur. i agree about that bill you Tsen, taking any knowlege away from anyone is ridiculous, sorta like banning books from a library.

FluBB

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Originally posted by Tsen
.... and decided I was an atheist.... *.

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This is exactly the reason why Satan goes such such great extents to support and sponsor such false religions as Mormonism and all of those other murderously conservative Protestant Sects -- to simplistic but impressionable minds it then might seem that ALL Religion is equally false.

But what of the Historically Documented Sufi, Hindu and Catholic Saints? The Miracles of Christ are apparent in the Saints, and Miracles are the Proof of Religion. Simply because Mormonism and Protestantism have no Miracles (frankly dodging the issue by teaching Sunday School children that we are past the Age of Miracles) is no reason to reject Higher Religion and the Higher Religions (Zoroastrianism as Sufism and Jainism, Theological and Metaphysical Hinduism -- particularly the Yogic Disciplines; Mahayana Buddhism, and Catholicism) which have all evinced wonder-working Saints well within the Scientific Era.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

anyone who bases their testimony on evidence and proof is obviously looking for an excuse to leave it.

FluBB

Tell us again Leo how bad paul is. We really want to know what pauls position is here.

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Originally posted by FluBB
anyone who bases their testimony on evidence and proof is obviously looking for an excuse to leave it.

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Hi FluBB! Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post, but evidence and proof make for a strong foundation, especially for the faith.

yes that is true i suppose, but to find one fault in a church and then give it up is not right, if you have a testimony and you know its true then what else should matter?

FluBB

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Originally posted by Boris
Tell us again Leo how bad paul is. We really want to know what pauls position is here.

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Well, my point is not so much to positively point out Paul's viewpoints as to show that the ostensible policies of much of Modern Christianity sources exclusively from Paul, and that there is a sizeable Minority of Christians, actually Catholics of the Religious Orders, who would seriously argue with the generalization that are being tossed about regarding Christianity.

So, it is not just about Paul. It is that most people do not understand the complexities and conflicts now taking place within the Christian Communities.

Now, it might be more amusing and satisfiying to suppose it is all quite simplistic. It just wouldn't be true.

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Originally posted by FluBB
we're not neccessarily saying that we are completely correct and everyone else is wrong, but that we have more, meaning the book of mormon.

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my understanding of mormon claims/doctrine is that other churches have partial truth, but the mormon church is the only one that has ALL the truth. the mormon church is 100% true, while other churches might be 80% or 90% or whatever. so they're not claiming that other churches are wrong as such, only that other churches are not entirely right. like they are.

this being the case,

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to find one fault in a church and then give it up is not right, if you have a testimony and you know its true then what else should matter?[/b]

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shouldn't a church that claims to be the most true of all churches, to come directly from god to the prophet's mouth, not have any faults? at least doctrinally.

what really boggles my mind is when people try to base faith in any religion on rational things like proof, evidence, etc. faith, by definition, is irrational. so in some sense, FluBB, i agree with you. faith shouldn't be based on proof or evidence, because it is supposed to be belief in something for which there is no proof. for example, i believe in god. i have faith in god. i can't prove he exists, but i believe it anyway. on the other hand, nobody can prove he does not exist. atheists also operate from a faith-based position. however, IMHO, it is just silly to have faith in something for which there is contrary evidence. as kind of a stupid example, take the color of the sky. i could say that i believe the sky is red with orange polka dots. i could say that, since there is no evidence supporting my belief, it is a position of faith. however, there is quite a bit of contrary empirical evidence. i can look at the sky and see with my own eyes that it is blue (well, white at the moment. bloody cloud cover.) one could scientifically measure the wavelengths of light coming from the sky and determine the color.

so to answer your question "if you have a testimony and you know its true then what else should matter?", anything that can prove it's falsity should matter. just because you feel it's true (and don't get me started on what you "know" or don't know) doesn't mean it is. you still need to keep an open mind, open to ideas and opinions contrary to your own, and open to evidence that could either support or refute your ideas and opinions.

ok well i see whats goin on, so what do you find wrong specifically? keep in mind that you cant judge the church's people, but the doctrine. so i have heard the horse thing of course, which doesnt really matter to me anyways, because god can change anything if he wants too. what else do you suggest? if you can give me some examples i will try to give an open mind and see what i can say. but i suppose it is true how we think our church is 100% true, but we dont have all the answers. meh what do i know, im just a 16 year old kid thats trying to see whats wrong with his church (if there is something)

FluBB

well, you're right. i can't judge the church based on the people. but i can decide that they are generally not the type of people i would associate with, and, hence, not want to go to church with.

there is the horse thing, for which i don't accept your explanation of god can do anything he wants, but i'm sure i won't get you to agree with me on that. but i think that is a symptom of a bigger problem, which is simply that the BoM just is not true. just based on the circumstances of it's writing, what joseph was doing at the time, what he did before the church started, joseph's personality, and various literary cues within the BoM itself just make me think it's writing was not inspired. it was written by joseph, not nephi, mormon, moroni, etc. if you want to learn more about joseph, read a book by Fawn Brodie called No Man Knows My History. it is a biography of joseph, very highly known and respected in the academic community.

basically, i think that joseph started the whole thing as either a joke or a scam or whatever, and got sucked way too far into it, to the point where he could no longer come clean about it, and perhaps to the point where he began to believe it himself.

aside from the actual truth value of any mormon claims, i also disagree with a number of their social policies, both official policies (such as anti-homosexuality, etc.) and unofficial practices.

I would like to add this:

FluBB, I know you think I shouldn't judge the church based on the people, but I'd argue the exact opposite. A church is compromised only of two things: Doctrine and People. Without one, the other is pointless. A church with no Doctrine is not really a church at all, just a gang of sorts. And a church with no people has nothing left but a shell.
Therefore, since the people were not the sort I want to associate with, I felt it was not only my right but my duty to judge the church by its members and leave it.

Also, I agree with Kage; the Book of Mormon no longer strikes me as an inspired book. It did once, but after I really read it with the intention of finding something, I found there was nothing to be had there at all.

Further, I have a problem with the racism associated with the church. Much of it has diminished now, but the whole, "Blacks and Native Americans are a cursed race" bit makes me a bit angry. Africans have darker skin as an evolutionary reaction to living in a hot climate; not because of some grudge God was holding. Which brings up the point as to why God would hold such a grudge against the CHILDREN of a man who committed a crime and not against the man himself. I thought God was all forgiving? Not to mention that one of the articles of faith says DIRECTLY that "Men will be held accountable for their OWN sins". That ought exclude them from being punished for what their ancestors did, but Mormons (and all Christians, in fact) seem to believe otherwise. In fact, they still held that grudge into the 1970's when 'revelation' said they ought allow the blacks to have the preisthood, too. That 'revelation' just happened to happen during a civil rights crisis, didn't it? But up until then the church was perfectly justified in witholding things from people with no sins, just because their ancestor supposedly committed a crime 6,000 years ago, eh?
Just doesn't quite ring true with me.

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Originally posted by Tsen
I would like to add this:

FluBB, I know you think I shouldn't judge the church based on the people, but I'd argue the exact opposite. *A church is compromised only of two things: Doctrine and People. *Without one, the other is pointless. *A church with no Doctrine is not really a church at all, just a gang of sorts. *And a church with no people has nothing left but a shell. *
Therefore, since the people were not the sort I want to associate with, I felt it was not only my right but my duty to judge the church by its members and leave it.

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wait, so are you arguing about the mormon church, or all churches that believe in god? very important because we are supposed to be talking about the mormons not the christian churches in general. are you saying that is just a mormon problem or all churches believing in god? honestly, bout the black racial issue, i have thought about that a lot myself. it is very interesting about the timing i must agree, but werent the other religions the same way? not that we should be like the other churches, but i think it would have given us a whole nother thing to be worrying about when we were being prosecuted for living our religion. add racists into it and then it really gets messy. ok thats just what i think, which might not be what other members think...

well the BoM is interesting. how do you think a 24 old man with no to little/limited education could possibly write it? what maybe they handed it down through generations or something? i cant remember all the details but some big shot at a university looked over the book of mormon and said that it was definatley.. um how to put it... historically correct i suppose, it looked real (and is by the way). but as soon as he heard it was a translation he took it all back. :mad: but thats cool. i am definatley agreeing with you on the whole own sins thing... i guess i will ask someone who knows about the church about it and see what they have to say.

FluBB

I was only talking the Mormon church in that instance. You see, I don't particularly like the mentality common in LDS members. I can like A Mormon without a problem, but I don't like the group of people because of their pride. You remember the pride cycle it discusses so frequently in the Book of Mormon? Pride coming before the fall? It's always surprised me how often Sunday School teachers and bishops have preached that to me without once even THINKING that they themselves are participating in the same pride cycle.
The hypocrisy is astounding.

i could be wrong, i'm not a christian history scholar or anything, but i don't think other churches had any problems with blacks holding positions of authority. many churches (including the mormon church) had problems with women in authority, but many churches have changed that policy as well (not the mormons, though). in any case, the black priesthood thing is definitely a sticky issue.

and i fully agree with Tsen on the pride issue. i have many (well, some. a few.) mormon friends that are perfectly okay, but the majority of mormons i know or have met (with the exception of these few i consider my friends) are extremely prideful about their religion. i can't tell you how many mormons i've met who (intentionally or not) adopt a holier-than-thou attitude when they interact with non-mormons.

as for the BoM, true, joseph had little formal education. this does not mean he was stupid! (look at this, here i am defending the intelligence of joseph smith! heh.) he was extremely well read. even though he only went to school through 2nd grade (i think), he read a lot, he was smart, he studied things on his own. he learned multiple languages. he studied and thought about philosophy and metaphysics. he was a very smart and well-rounded man. in those days, formal education, or lack thereof, didn't really mean a whole lot to his social class. in addition to all that, he was also very, um, charismatic. he was a natural leader. i mean, look at all his wives. what a charming guy. how could you not follow him? plus, at the time it was written, there was much interest in these mounds, believed to be burial mounds, in the area. it was very popular to make up theories and stories about these. in fact, there was a popular book, Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews, published origianally in 1823, that was all about the idea that the native americans were descended from the hebrews. so he (joseph) was borrowing from tradition and folklore to create an epic story told in king james english. if you like, i could point out many inconsistencies which can be found in a simple internet search. of course, inconsistencies don't necessarily mean that joseph wrote it himself. the original authors could have been inconsistent. that only works in some cases though.

(P.S. Tsen, in another thread talking about mormonism, we were discussing whether or not the BoM had ever been changed, and you talked about your grandma's old one. do you happen to know for sure which edition it is, or when it was published? and do you have access to it? since that discussion, i've read stuff on the internet claiming that some changes were made. mostly grammatical and spelling, but also some slight changes in content. but i don't automatically believe everything i read (especially on the internet), and i don't have an old one to check. if you have access to your grandma's or anything, i could send you some links and you could check them, if you want.)

by the way, FluBB, i just want to say that it's cool that you're actually interested in this and that you are open to hearing what non- and former-believers have to say about it. this is more than many mormons i have known would be willing to do.

ya of course man, i always keep an open mind, why not ya know.

but man that really pisses me off about mormons acting that way, so gay. i have never acted that way. is it really the majority? maybe your associated with the really molly mormon do everything right mormons, but whatever. i was going to ask my seminary teacher that question about racism and stuff but i sluffed it so i didnt get the opportunity. id ask my dad but he would probably freak for some reason. ill keep you posted tho.

"inconsistencies don't necessarily mean that joseph wrote it himself. the original authors could have been inconsistent. that only works in some cases though."
so your saying that there was more then one person writing it? or just one? hmm well i am still having a hard time thinking that some dude could write that book, it must have taken him a long while. so you think that he was just tryin to make a few bucks and then screwed himself and there was no way out? hmm interesting.

FluBB

haha random question, do you guys lucid dream? just wonderin.

FluBB

ha! i used to sluff seminary all the time, but one day my mom told me if she found out i did it again, she would take my car. so after that, i always went, i just went probably half an hour late every day. i never did find out how she knew.

yeah, when i was in high school i did pretty much associate with either the molly mormon do everything right ones, or non-mormons. there weren't really all that many in-between at my school. although i must say, since i came to college, most of the mormons i associate with are not nearly as prideful as the ones i used to know. of course, i also associate with far fewer mormons than i did in high school. these days there are probably 3-5 mormons that i talk to on a regular basis.

"inconsistencies don't necessarily mean that joseph wrote it himself. the original authors could have been inconsistent. that only works in some cases though."
by that i meant that, if you believe that joseph really was the translator, as opposed to the author, then perhaps the original authors (nephi, mormon, moroni, etc.) may have been inconsistent. but there are still some things that are most easily explained by considering joseph as the author rather than the translator.

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so you think that he was just tryin to make a few bucks and then screwed himself and there was no way out?[/b]

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i wouldn't say that's absolutely what happened, but i definitely think it's a pretty good possibility. although i wouldn't even absolutely say he did it for money; maybe he was just trying to have a good time. i couldn't say for sure. all i can really say is that i don't consider the BoM to be inspired writing. or at least no more inspired than any creative work is. it has interesting (sometimes) stories and good values and morals, but i don't believe it is fact. i think it is fiction. many works of fiction have interesting stories and good values and morals.

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haha random question, do you guys lucid dream? just wonderin.[/b]

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not nearly as much as i wish. i remember my dreams about once a week or so, and i'm lucid maybe once a month. i've really been slacking in my dream journal; i need to be better about that.

ya i definatley agree on the good values, and personally i guess i wouldnt really care if it was fake. because by following the principles i can have a good life. did you guys ever get your patriarchial blessing? i did, and its wierd how it has already helped me with some issues i have been having. its really comforting to know that theres a god out there that looks after me and all that. and if theres not, then i would have lived my life the way that is the best for me. in the words of some stupid email i got one time, "I would rather live life believing in god and find out after there wasnt, then going to life thinking there wasnt and there is." it was something like that anyways. well i think the only thing that can really prove the book of mormon to be the word of god is by testimony. unfortunatly we had a little assembly thing today in seminary so i didnt get to ask and wont get to for a while. but apparently were supposed to give up like 3 things out of a groups of things like chocolate, soda, TV, internet or something, and then we have to do all this church stuff. of course its "optional" which in parental and LDS languige means "you better f***ing do it or we will frown upon you as a society!" which really pisses me off. umm i would talk about this some more but i have a bass lesson pretty soon here. so what highschool did you go to? i lucid dream... umm.. 5 times i suppose, all within a few weeks... peace.

FluBB

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i guess i wouldnt really care if it was fake.[/b]

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that's your decision to make, and i can respect that. incidentally, did you ever see the South Park episode "All About the Mormons"? a mormon kid moves to town and basically comes to the same decision. he says that it doesn't really matter if the church and the BoM are true or not, because, regardless of their truth value, they have given him a good family and a good life. and i will say that, since the mormons stress family values so much, there are probably less fucked up families in utah than in other areas. but i also want to say that you can have good values, follow good principles, and live a good life without the influence of any religion. atheists can have values and morals just as much as theists. (although, to avoid any misunderstanding, i am not an atheist. i do believe in a god, just not the mormon god.)

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did you guys ever get your patriarchial blessing?[/b]

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yes, i did, shortly before i left the church. it's been a long time since i've looked at it, but i remember thinking at the time that it seemed pretty generic. maybe i'll look at it again one of these days.

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of course its "optional" which in parental and LDS languige means "you better f***ing do it or we will frown upon you as a society!" which really pisses me off.[/b]

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yes, me too! this attitude is part of what i meant earlier when i was talking about a holier-than-thou attitude.

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i have a bass lesson pretty soon here. so what highschool did you go to?[/b]

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do you mean like bass guitar, or upright bass, or what? are you in a band or orchestra or anything? West Jordan High School. you?

by the way, who is that in your avatar and what does his shirt say?

Kage

haha, thats Zack de la Rocha, the singer for Rage Against the Machine, which sadly he left the band because of political differences. his shirt says go grapes i think... dont ask me why... but if you know rage music youll understand how tight he is.

i play the electric bass, and as much as i think i can play the upright bass i cant, dude its so wierd. but anyways im goin to east high school right now. yeah im in a band, but we still suck.... well not really, we just need to make some more songs and some lyrics. we play... um.. lets see.. its sorta like rock/funk/jazz/a wee bit latin.

um lets see about your comments on the religion thing...
haha oh ya i did see that south park episode, i found how funny it was, if i remember correctly, how correct it was besides a few things like everyone accepting it so easy. ("Lucy Harris smart smart smart, Martin Harris DUMB!") from what i hear the people who started it were like 2 gay ex missionaries who "met up" in the mission field. but who knows?? Ya its so dumb how the mormon society is that way. and i cant remember who said it but they were talking about the pride cycle and everything in seminary one time and it is amazing how it is really contradicting the church because we (meaning the majority i guess :shakehead2: ) seem to really put out that we are the only completly correct church.... dont get me wrong, im still a firm believer in mormonism, but i dont like some of the things that go on like what weve talked about. hmm so ya.

about the lucid dreaming thing, it really sucks because i am sorta linking lucid dreams in with the god thing, so i guess god is in all things, so basically the reason i get lucid is because of god... so if im not being a good little boy.... i aint gettin none. interesting.

ya i dont think that west jordan is in our district... ya im sure. how big? east is 4A.

FluBB

I'm a senior down at Northridge High.
~1 lucid per week at the moment, but it varies from 1 a month to 1 a day.

oh, okay. i am slightly familiar with rage. although i'm not the biggest fan of that style of music, i still think rage is pretty cool because of their politics and messages.

you guys should come play a concert in logan some time. we rarely get cool concerts up here.

i'm glad you liked that episode of south park. i think the majority of mormons probably haven't seen any south park, but if they saw that one, i think most of them would be highly offended. yes, matt stone and trey parker (the south park creators) are gay, but i honestly don't know if they went on missions or not. i had heard that they met in school. i've heard some people say that at least one of them is an ex-mormon, but i've also heard that that's not true. so i don't know. i do know they grew up in colorado, so even if neither one of them was mormon, they surely would have been exposed to the culture at least somewhat. they made a movie once called "Orgazmo" that was about this kid who goes on his mission to california and ends up getting involved in the porn industry. it was pretty funny, although potentially highly offensive (and somewhat inaccurate). i think the only place in utah that screened it was the Tower Theatre. but yes, i felt that the south park episode was pretty accurate in its portrayal. they know the story.

uh... WJHS is in Jordan School District. either 4A, or 5A. i don't remember. east is up near the university, isn't it? i have a friend who lives close to east, i think. he's around 9th south and 15th east. WJHS is around 8000 south and 2700 west.

We do not need to regret our past for without it we would not get to where we are now. Love your past and Love everything you do no matter how much you think it is 'wrong'. It isn't 'wrong', it is absolutely perfect.
Still, making up your own mind and world is a splendid thing is it not?

sorry i havent written in a while, but i have something to say about the pride cycle.
so whats the difference between pride, and knowledge? they are sort of the same, but not really. mormons have knowledge, so its not as much as a major pride thing, its just that we have more knowledge then other people. and you have to realize that god does choose favorites, the story of abraham and his sons comes to mind. which son did god favor most? but our god does have mercy for those not of our religion. its pretty much if you have felt the spirit, and acknowledged what it was, you are set in a higher level. so as you progress in the church you have more and more responsiblity etc. so someone that has not heard of the church that lives in a tibetan monastary meditating blah blah and all that good stuff then i see no reason why he could not get to heaven. pretty interesting to think about.

by the way, kage, do you believe the political messages and stuff rage talks about? i sorta do, but theres not really any concrete evidence. ya i bet all you get up in logan for concerts is like crap like ryan shupe and stuff... i feel for ya man. Salt Lake is where its at... and sadly enough Provo is too.

Tsen, NorthRidge? OooOoo, hmm.. i play you in football, you didnt happen to be on the football team this year did you?

FluBB

it's okay to have more knowledge about something. pride is when having this extra knowledge makes you think you are better than those who don't have it. pride is when you are stuck-up or cocky about your beliefs or actions. pride is when you feel that nobody is perfect, except for you, and it's your job to let other people know what they need to be doing differently. i don't know if you were a member of the forum when the whole RyanParis thing was going on. if not, look up some of his forums. nazi propaganda/bullshit aside, there was a prideful person. so a prideful mormon would go around boasting about how often they go to the temple, reading the BoM in a very public setting (especially if they are reading it just so non-mormons will ask about it or something), and telling people just what they needed to do to improve their spiritual standing. a humble mormon would go around trying to improve him/herself, helping others wherever possible, and not try to draw attention to the fact that they are mormon and you are not! of course, it might be hard to adopt a humble attitude when you're being told stuff like "Every member a missionary."

honestly, i'm really not all that familiar with rage's music and messages. from what i've heard/read, i think i pretty much agree with them, although i would have to read a lot more of their lyrics to tell you for sure. but i do appreciate and respect the fact that they are political and try to spread meaningful messages AT ALL. so many bands these days don't seem to care a rat's ass about anything other than making money.

and yes, we get shit for concerts in logan. i'm pretty sure ryan shupe has played multiple concerts up here. and Voicemale. if it's not something in that genre, than it's probably a bunch of freshmen playing that godawful punk-pop. although we do get cool stuff once in a while. just not often.

Nah, I've never been big on the football thing. Plus, our team's sucked for the last three years running...Before that they were great, won 3 consecutive State titles or something, but then they just fizzled out.

Anyway, I fully agree with Kage. It's when you think that your added knowledge makes your faith in God somehow different than the next man's that it draws the line.

And it's tough getting many good concerts in Utah at all...some bands just avoid it. My favorite band's (Flogging Molly) been on tour through the US several times in the last three years or so, but they've only been in Utah twice, and once was for Warped Tour. Ugh...

Anyway, for political music, try Chumbawamba. Bit more European than American, but it's still VERY political, though I don't agree with all of it.

EDIT: w00t, 1111 posts! :breakitdown:

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Originally posted by kage23
so a prideful mormon would go around boasting about how often they go to the temple, reading the BoM in a very public setting (especially if they are reading it just so non-mormons will ask about it or something), and telling people just what they needed to do to improve their spiritual standing. a humble mormon would go around trying to improve him/herself, helping others wherever possible, and not try to draw attention to the fact that they are mormon and you are not! of course, it might be hard to adopt a humble attitude when you're being told stuff like "Every member a missionary."

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so i am guessing that you are saying that non prideful mormon is the best.. so you feel that most mormons are prideful in the way that they are always open about their religion and stuff. i dont think thats necessarily bad if you have a testimony, but if you dont, or have a weak one, then wtf are you doing trying to get someone else to join? thats why this 40 day challenge at my seminary ment to get people to ask questions about the chruch pissed me off so much because if i dont have a strong testimony and really look at my doctrine, and get a few point of views then thats... gay. i told my friend that i wasnt doing it and i dont think he realizes how prideful he is in that way. he has always been sorta "im better then you because this is the 5th time ive read the BoM" kind of attitude. but hes really the only one that i associate with thats like that. Mormons or faithful mormons are actually in the minority in my group of friends. and i heard that the mormons are outnumbered in the state now.... good for you guys eh? were just worried that gay marriage or something like that will pass. what are you views on gay marriage anyways?

well... you really need to listen to rage.. they have the tightest music with some pretty good messages, just dont listen to audioslave (rage without zack de la rocha). about those bands that tsen mentioned i dont think i have heard of some of em. but Flogging Molly haha excellent choice, not one of my personal favorites but a very good band all the same. im pretty open to all styles of music, because if your not then you should just... just... not... live. well actually i hate new country, but the old is ok (like Johnny Cash is the only one).
hmm well i know back in the day when rage was still around they had a concert in rice eccles stadium (where the olympics were held and just 3 blocks away from my house). it was Rage as the opening and U2... oh my... i couldnt even imagine how tight that must have been. ya, of course i am going to be really good and were gunna go national and all that jazz, and i promise i will play in logan just for you...

FluBB

a non-prideful anyone is best, mormon or not. humility is a good virtue to have regardless of your status or position in life. and i wouldn't necessarily say that being open about one's religion is prideful. it's when someone focuses on how much better they are than everyone who is not of that religion that it becomes pride. when someone focuses on correcting everyone else's mistakes, oblivious to the fact that they make mistakes, too. like your friend. "im better then you because this is the 5th time ive read the BoM" that is a prideful attitude. and of course, one has to differentiate between pride that's good or okay and the sin of pride. i think it's okay to have pride about your accomplishments. for example, your band hits it big, records an album, and wins the grammy for best new group or whatever. that is something that you should feel pride for. you shouldn't get cocky, but that would be quite an accomplishment and is something you should be proud of. it's where to draw the line that gets sticky.

as for gay marriage . . . it's fine with me. i don't think i've ever heard a legitimate argument against gay marriage.

yeah, i'll have to listen to more rage. i've heard audioslave kinda sucked, though.

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of course i am going to be really good and were gunna go national and all that jazz, and i promise i will play in logan just for you...[/b]

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hahaha, awesome. better do it soon, though, because i (hopefully) won't be in logan much longer!