God, Just "Who" is "He"

For the 2000 odd years after Jesus Christs birth, the Christian Religion has grown in size to number in the Billions. How? In my opinion, fear and guilt drive most of Christianity's followers. Not all of the demoninations fuel is guilt and fear, others use Positive Thought.
Although, every sermon I've ever been too has revolved around how I'm going to hell if I don't worship thier God, especially the Baptists. All I see them doing is belittling and imposing fear upon thier followers...


"Mankind took a great idea, and turned it into a belief. A belief can't be changed without turmoil, but an idea can." - Dogma.

I'm looking for SOMEONE who is Christian that can honestly tell me that they don't fear God or Hell. I think I'll find one on this forum bases on the intelligent nature of most of the Users, but I dought I'll find many.
My Youth Group Leader is a prime example of this. No matter what happens, his main focus almost always seem to be upon God's Wrath, and how I'm going straight to hell to party with Satan if I don't believe what he does. How is that any way to run a belief? How? :cry: Especially with Teenagers. Someone, set my ideas about Christianity Straight, please.

http://www.pimpmysig.com/data/536/me...rong_forum.jpg

This needs to be moved to Religion/spirituality.

Moved.

To Kitsune:

I feel really bad hearing all that because I know many people feel the the same way :( I wish I could say something that might help but the thing is, I'm not christian :?

I think 'god' is nothing that should EVER be feared. That's just entirely wrong. I think 'god' is unconditional love and acceptance for everybody. However like I said, I'm not a christian and I don't believe in god as an actual 'person' or 'deity' but still.. I know there are many christians out there that do believe that god is indeed loving and compassionate. Not wrathful and judging.

I don't believe in hell like that. I think the only hell out there is a personal hell you create for yourself by filling yourself with negative feelings/emotions.. the same could be said for a personal heaven. And that has nothing to do with what you believe on a higher/spiritual level :? I believe that you will never be judged for what you believe in on that level, that would simply be wrong. It's quite impossible and arrogant to think that we can now know the absolute truth. We should just go with the flow and try to find peace with what is, I think :) And with ourselves, find ourselves and become at peace.

But yeah.. I believe that you could be an atheist and still find 'heaven' just as well. It's there for everybody. I always tell myself that if the christian god/jezus would be real they would have to be the most enlightened being ever. Which means they are indeed unconditionally loving, compassionate and accepting. They are above things 'wrath' or judgement or worship :D

But hey.. I hope a 'real christian' will reply and help you feel better. I hope you will ^_^

Ever consider atheism?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by bradybaker
Ever consider atheism?

---

No fire & brimstone, no prostelyzing and it's a non-prophet organization. ;)~

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitsune 205
I'm looking for SOMEONE who is Christian that can honestly tell me that they don't fear God or Hell. I think I'll find one on this forum bases on the intelligent nature of most of the Users, but I dought I'll find many.
My Youth Group Leader is a prime example of this. No matter what happens, his main focus almost always seem to be upon God's Wrath, and how I'm going straight to hell to party with Satan if I don't believe what he does. How is that any way to run a belief? How? :cry: Especially with Teenagers. Someone, set my ideas about Christianity Straight, please.

---

Hey Kitsune, welcome to the forum. I too agree that living life in terror is not the way. The biblical fear of God is not based on trepidation and panic, but rather of reverence and awe. It is not wanting to deliberately offend God out of love and respect. Its a good thing he knows the will is strong, but the flesh is weak. :P

I think the motivation of any person is the search for truth. Christianity not only explains what went wrong, but offers the solution. This helped me grasp the main idea.

I say, consider believing in what your heart tells you, what you feel is right. It's ok to do this because you're not going to be punished for following your heart and being kind to everybody. :) I think that's probably your main problem with the religion you are currently faced with.. it's cruel and harsh sometimes. :(

Well I can tell you even though I'm not a christian god or jezus aren't cruel. They are loving and compassionate. (and again before anybody comments I don't believe in god as a person that interferes with things, the crap that happens is generally our own fault and nobody is going to solve it for us, with the exception of a few things like natural disasters but we cause a lot of those as well)

Think about god and jezus, they are supposed to stand for love. Universal love for everybody. And they do.. it's just that some individuals in the past and present twisted things around for their own good and they ended up manipulating a lot of people causing a wrong idea about what the religion is about. That created the strict, harsh, ortodox part of religion that you know. It's like that with pretty much every religion, sadly. :(

You could ask why I keep naming god and jezus and why I defend something I don't even entirely believe in.. well, I know a lot of people do believe in them and I respect that. And I know there are a lot of christians out there that do hold true to the actual thing 'god' and 'jezus' stand/stood for. To me Jezus, whether he was real or not represents love and kindness for everybody, to stand up for this even if you get the smack down. This is very admirable. So hey, maybe jezus never existed but this idea certainly does :) And I believe in that idea.

Again I feel really bad reading what you said because I feel many people, especially young people, feel the same. Ultimately they grow up hating their religion which is sad.. spirituality can be very beautiful :)

If anything, completely turning away from it won't harm you either. Being an atheist is not a 'sin'. So if that's what you would want to do.. Alternatively a healthy attitude would be just getting away from it all for a while, but keep an open mind and heart. And if another belief comes to you, then you can pick it up. Or maybe you'll come to find your own by looking at many different religions, like me. :)

I think it's important that every aspect of your religion or belief is something you fully support and find yourself in. It should be simple and understandable for you and make you happy and fulfilled. You shouldnt force yourself into anything.. I think true spirituality comes naturally when you're open to it and go with the flow, letting it in little bit by little bit.

But I don't wanna go on too much.. sorry :P I just felt like helping out.. not sure if that's what I'm doing. If you wanna talk to me send a PM sometimes ;) Otherwise I'll shut up :D

Quote:

---

Originally posted by InTheMoment

No fire & brimstone, no prostelyzing and it's a non-prophet organization. ;)~

---

That was pretty damn clever. As far as this goes, I don't think I could ever believe in a cruel Christian God. Why would there be a God that would punish us for doing what he intended for us to do?

To those who constantly bash religion stop concerntrating on the flaws of a straw man belief system thinking your so wise and lucid when you have no knowledge of theosophy.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Boris
To those who constantly bash religion. I would say stop concerntrating on the flaws of a straw man belief system thinking your so wise and lucid when you have no knowledge of theosophy.

---

Most of the people here who object to religion (including me) do not argue against a straw-man version of religion - we argue against a well established theology (most christianity). The fact that we argue against it means we don't believe it, yet you cannot call it a straw-man version of religion. Why not? It is a valid religion, we haven't just made it up. The fact is that the christianity argued against by many people on this forum (myself included) is the christianity that well over a billion people accept.

Now, we might all just be spiritual retards as you often insinuate, but at least the christians and atheists have one thing in common here - we've presented arguments for our belief, and attempted to address perceived problems in those arguments. Something that you've never done, and actually directly avoided doing a few times. So, unless you'd like to provide some sort of (allegedly uber-enlightened) belief system to compare our (horribly inept and insufficient obviously) beliefs to, why don't you just admit that your theology has just as much basis as anyones' here and cut the "enlightened spiritual guru" crap.

To sum up: put up or shut up.

-spoon

ps: no points unless you can do it without resorting to ad hom

Spoon. The problem is you just don't know my beliefs cause you either can't understand them or have not asked. Theosophy is a good start, like I already mentioned.

I say you argue against a straw man belief system, because its like arguing with the caveman for example that the earth is flat. Who really cares? Any intelligent person knows it's not flat by now. So why don't you just let the argument go it's over......Those who still believe......let them be. until they come to you with the questions atleast.

Sometimes good points against this religion you percieve you make. And it's obvious. But is it time to move on? Can you just leave the cave man alone and discuss something a bit less boring?

How about discussing some of your beliefs and going into detail with them?

You think I'm trying to be a guru or look enlightened? It's amusing you have this impression givin how hard I have tried not to look like that.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Boris
Spoon. The problem is you just don't know my beliefs cause you either can't understand them or have not asked. Theosophy is a good start, like I already mentioned.

I say you argue against a straw man belief system, because its like arguing with the caveman for example that the earth is flat. Who really cares? Any intelligent person knows it's not flat by now. So why don't you just let the argument go it's over......Those who still believe......let them be. until they come to you with the questions atleast.

Sometimes good points against this religion you percieve you make. And it's obvious. But is it time to move on? Can you just leave the cave man alone and discuss something a bit less boring?

How about discussing some of your beliefs and going into detail with them?

You think I'm trying to be a guru or look enlightened? It's amusing you have this impression givin how hard I have tried not to look like that.

---

a) He did ask. We all have. Several times. I'll do it again: Boris, can you please share with us your views on reality.

B) That's not what "straw man" means. It generally refers to one's attempt to incorrectly tell the other what they believe and then attack that position.

c) If you find the arguments boring, no one asked you to participate.

Boris:

Just in case you're waiting for a response from me: what brady said. How can you say that I don't know your views because I haven't asked.... in response to me asking what your views are? Just for the record including "theosophy" in a sentence is not an explanation of your beliefs.

And in case you pick up that I'm also not responding to a direct question: I asked first. I've been asking for a few months now, and I've already gone into my beliefs numerous times on this board - this is about you acting spiritually-superior to everyone else's beliefs while never having presented any rational explanation of your own.

And besides, you just don't answer a question with a question, it's insulting.

So.. if you aren't going to put up, please say you're going to shut up.

-spoon

Quote:

---

[strawman] It generally refers to one's attempt to incorrectly tell the other what they believe and then attack that position.[/b]

---

Do you see anyone on this thread. That actually believes everything u argue against? Many times has my beliefs being taken out of context because of this mentality. That's what I mean when you argue against a straw man belief system. First find the person who believes what you are arguing against.

And now spoon.....

What is the point in me trying to explain my beliefs to you. Why should I give them to you all on a platter when you are not ready to understand them. Ever herd the saying that you don't throw your pearls to swine. You have a question just ask it , it's simple. You can stop saying I havn't answered your question and just ask it. If you are not happy with the reply. Tell me why, and I will elaborate if there is time.

The question what is your beliefs. It not an intelligent one because not only is it unprecise but it cannot possible be answered in a way you can understand at this point without a great deal of effort. And even then you would not understand. You have already demonstrated this. So why should I waste my effort trying to explain my entire belief system to you? If you want an answer be realistic and ask a more precise question which I am willing to waste time on you to answer.

If you ask why the sky is blue,just for an example. And then I ask why do you think it is blue. It still makes it a valid question. Just because I do not answer you straight away, does not mean I am avoiding the question. Should you give up and complain it only shows your lack of desire to have the question answered. In which case you don't deserve an answer anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by boris
Do you see anyone on this thread. That actually believes everything u argue against?... That's what I mean when you argue against a straw man belief system. First find the person who believes what you are arguing against.

---

Genjyo seems to have fairly normal christian beliefs. And as I've already pointed out to you; billions of people believe in the christianity that we argue against on this forum. For our arguments to be straw-men we'd have to be distorting the christian beliefs and arguing against something we made up.

Quote:

---

..Many times has my beliefs being taken out of context because of this mentality...[/b]

---

How can we take your beliefs out of context when you absolutely refuse to explain them? We're addressing these arguments to people who believe in the christian (or any similar god), not some vague "belief" which hasn't even been quantified yet. You know, this would probably make all your objections to our arguments straw-men. They might be stupid and illogical in your uber-advanced belief system, but us mere mortals aren't talking in that context. And refutation of our arguments on that ground are refuting a version of our argument that you made up.

on that note:

Quote:

---

What is the point in me trying to explain my beliefs to you.[/b]

---

Because I asked? Because it would help everyone understand your points? Because it's a truism that you only understand something to the extent to which you can explain it?

Quote:

---

Why should I give them to you all on a platter when you are not ready to understand them. Ever herd the saying that you don't throw your pearls to swine. [/b]

---

Why don't you just try and explain them, and I'll decide if I can understand them or not?

Quote:

---

You have a question just ask it , it's simple. You can stop saying I haven't answered your question and just ask it. If you are not happy with the reply. Tell me why, and I will elaborate if there is time. *

The question what is your beliefs. It not an intelligent one because not only is it unprecise but it cannot possible be answered in a way you can understand at this point without a great deal of effort. [/b]

---

I think the real problem here is that you're going to have to go to a bit of effort. For once on this board you're going to have to explain yourself which, you might have noticed, a lot of people do (and do quite well). Yes, this requires stringing more than a few sentences together - but I'm sure you can manage (everyone else does). If you're stuck and can't figure out what to write about, think about some other well defined belief system and what it entails (a god (or gods), an afterlife, a creation, a purpose for humanity, etc). Is it really that much trial to write down something you obviously value a lot?

Quote:

---

And even then you would not understand. You have already demonstrated this. So why should I waste my effort trying to explain my entire belief system to you? If you want an answer be realistic and ask a more precise question which I am willing to waste time on you to answer. [/b]

---

If I don't understand your explanation it will only be because you cant explain it coherently. Not agreeing with your religion is more likely, but that does not automatically mean not understanding.

Yes - I'm asking a question that is not extremely precise, that leaves a little room for interpretation. Big deal, have you never received an essay question in school or university? The fact that it's not precise should make this easier for you.

So again: unless you want to explain some sort of coherent belief system, could you please do us all a favour and stop making snide comments about other peoples beliefs and destroying straw-man versions of our arguments using your mystical "too hard to explain so I'm just righter than you" belief system? Look, I'll even lend a hand and start you off:

My beliefs are actually a lot like <belief system x>, although there are a few differences. <Belief system x> is probably best understood by its ....

or maybe

My beliefs don't exactly pigeonhole into a traditional belief, as I've taken principles from many different faiths. I guess the main parts of my belief system are:

-spoon

One of my beliefs is that your acting like a moron. Does that help?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by spoon
For our arguments to be straw-men we'd have to be distorting the christian beliefs and arguing against something we made up.

---

Many would argue that you are indeed distorting the christain beliefs and making things up. Don't you realize people have different interpretations of christianity.

I believe in evolution and science. I do not fit in to any particular religion but i see a common thread within them all. I cannot see how there can be two sources of reality. To me it is simple mathematics that there is only one source to everything that exists.

I do believe that what is, could be a resonable definition for god. Since it's all that exists.
There is nothing else to label what god would be. One that claims there is no god does not see all that exists as a definition of god.

I don't see nothing but chaos around me. I see things have actually evolved to a point where there is intelligent design present. Wether you admit it or not. And it's only going to evolve more.

science is yet to discover a decent explaination of how consiousness works. And theosophy has explained the life princible clearly enough and provided sufficient evidence for it to make sense to me. Therefore there is an afterlife but there is no death.

My beliefs are not as simple as the religious argument you like to talk about. You can't exactly put it in a neat little pakage and then say, ok thats it all done. It requires a little bit more thinking. I believe in logic and what is sensible and I follow it as best I can. I am not afraid to admit to mistakes if I find I'm wrong about something.

When you ask, you don't seem to realize just about every post I make contains information on my beliefs if you had been paying any attention at all.